An ACTION or INSTRUCTION referencing an AGEN, is it possible?
Hi Heath, So for demographic classes instances, the values should be linked in ENTRY.other_participations? (at the ENTRY level) or COMPOSITION.context.participations at the clinical document level? (just to be sure :) In the other hand, when you reference a class or an instance of that class, those structures should have something in common, since there is a semantic link between them. At the class level maybe you have the type of device, and at the instance level you should have a type too. See the ORGANISATION example, there is a CLUSTER for organization internal structure and there is a ORGANISATION as a whole demographic archetype, and both internal structures are different. And the CLUSTER has an identifier, so could be used to reference an ORGANISATION instance. Maybe this case is just an inconsistency in the archetypes, but maybe other archetypes have the same problems. What do you think about this rules: If it's necessary to reference an instance of a demographic class, use a DEMOGRAPHIC archetype and add the instance into the participations attribute (at the COMPOSITION or ENTRY)If it's necessary to record some attributes that can only reference a class of DEMOGRAPHIC archetypes (type of AGENT, type of PERSON, type of ORGANISATION, ...), use a CLUSTER archetype to model those attributes and add the information directly into the correspondent ENTRY (using a slot to the CLUSTER in the ENTRY archetype).The correspondent record of demogrpahic class attributes (type of ...) and the record of instances of those classes should be consistent (class attributes should be included into instance attributes). -- Kind regards, Ing. Pablo Pazos Guti?rrez LinkedIn: http://uy.linkedin.com/in/pablopazosgutierrez Blog: http://informatica-medica.blogspot.com/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/ppazos Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 08:57:22 +0930 Subject: Re: An ACTION or INSTRUCTION referencing an AGEN, is it possible? From: heath.fran...@oceaninformatics.com To: openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org CC: openehr-clinical at chime.ucl.ac.uk Hi Pablo, You news to be clearer about the requirement. Depending on the real requirement the student may be right. Remember that demographic model is recording instances of parties not classes. So if the requirement is to record the specific instance of device recording attributes such serial number, last calibration date etc then he is perfectly correct to reference this instance using a participation and party ref. However if he is just recording the type of device then you would use a protocol structure as per the blood pressure. Including an agent object by value within an entry is not allowed and in cases where we do need to record an instance of a device by value because we don't want the overhead of first recording the instance in a demographic repository and then referencing it then we do use the cluster approach that Heather referred to, but this is an implementation choice or even driven by the modeling process which wants to use a single model and by value associations to aid in model understanding. From experience, I don't think it is absolutely necessary to attempt to model the party model in the cluster structure, it just makes the model hard to understand and implement. Heath On 17/06/2012 12:41 PM, "pablo pazos" wrote: I'm correcting student papers for the openEHR course in spanish.A student has modelled oftalmologic studies for diabetic patients, with a demographic archetype of AGENT class to model all the devices used on the test. It could be very usefull to let record the device information in the ACTION archetype to say "this is the device we use for this test", or at the INSTRUCTION archetype to say "this is the device that should be used for the test". I'm sure some of you have solved this requirement, and I'll be very thankful if you can enlight me, because I don't see how the information model can solve this. Thanks a lot. -- Kind regards, Ing. Pablo Pazos Guti?rrez LinkedIn: http://uy.linkedin.com/in/pablopazosgutierrez Blog: http://informatica-medica.blogspot.com/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/ppazos ___ openEHR-technical mailing list openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org ___ openEHR-technical mailing list openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.openehr.org/pipermail/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20120617/c3c3fd1a/attachment.html>
An ACTION or INSTRUCTION referencing an AGEN, is it possible?
Hi Pablo, There is a CLUSTER.device archetype - http://www.openehr.org/knowledge/OKM.html#showarchetype_1013.1.17 - plus a CLUSTER.device_details archetype - http://www.openehr.org/knowledge/OKM.html#showarchetype_1013.1.844 - that might be of interest. These are modelled as openEHR EHR archetypes so as to be specified within the EHR itself and already used extensively within slots for many OBSERVATION archetypes eg OBS.blood_pressure. In addition, just as you are suggesting, they are intended for use within the Specific Details SLOT in the INSTRUCTION.request family of archetypes or in the Procedure Details SLOT in the ACTION.procedure archetype, as examples. Hope this is helpful Heather From: openehr-technical-boun...@lists.openehr.org [mailto:openehr-technical-bounces at lists.openehr.org] On Behalf Of pablo pazos Sent: Sunday, 17 June 2012 1:11 PM To: openehr clinical; openeh technical Subject: An ACTION or INSTRUCTION referencing an AGEN, is it possible? I'm correcting student papers for the openEHR course in spanish. A student has modelled oftalmologic studies for diabetic patients, with a demographic archetype of AGENT class to model all the devices used on the test. It could be very usefull to let record the device information in the ACTION archetype to say "this is the device we use for this test", or at the INSTRUCTION archetype to say "this is the device that should be used for the test". I'm sure some of you have solved this requirement, and I'll be very thankful if you can enlight me, because I don't see how the information model can solve this. Thanks a lot. -- Kind regards, Ing. Pablo Pazos Guti?rrez LinkedIn: http://uy.linkedin.com/in/pablopazosgutierrez Blog: http://informatica-medica.blogspot.com/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/ppazos -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.openehr.org/pipermail/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20120617/1ddbe65d/attachment.html>
An ACTION or INSTRUCTION referencing an AGENT, is it possible?
Hi Gustavo, As Heather pointed out, the solution seems to be to reference the internal structure of a device (or any other demographic archetype) through a CLUSTER. But I think those demographic concepts should be also modelled as complete, separate demographic archetypes, referencing the same internal structure (CLUSTER). This allow us (developers) to create functionalities for searching and processing on demographic archetypes. About the internals of a test, I think most often includes both ACTION and OBSERVATION, because an ACTION could be used when you need to record information about the execution itself (being or not a clinical intervention on the patient, e.g. the recording of the device used to make the test should be part of the ACTION not of the OBSERVATION), then the OBSERVATION(s) could hold the information about the test result or information about clinical findings during the test. Then the whole record of a test execution should be recorded into a COMPOSITION that references those ACTION(s) and OBSERVATION(s). The INSTRUCTION of a test could reference to a device that should be used on the test, but during the test maybe another device was used, and that should be part of the ACTION that executes the INSTRUCTION. Does this makes sense to you? Please correct me if I'm wrong. My student detected some oftalmologic concepts that are not in the CKM, maybe I can put you both in contact to collaborate on the modelling of those concepts. -- Kind regards, Ing. Pablo Pazos Guti?rrez LinkedIn: http://uy.linkedin.com/in/pablopazosgutierrez Blog: http://informatica-medica.blogspot.com/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/ppazos From: gbace...@gmail.com Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:03:15 +0100 Subject: Re: An ACTION or INSTRUCTION referencing an AGENT, is it possible? To: openehr-clinical at lists.openehr.org Hi Pablo,I'm an ophthalmologist and would be gladful to help. There are some issues about the archetype class and the nature of the test. As it is a study test it must be considered the existence of an intervention. If it does not include, so the most appropriate would be to record as an OBSERVATION archetype for the test. If it includes an intervention, then the most appropriate is to record as ACTION. For both situations use the "Device" CLUSTER on the CKM to record the device, remembering this archetype is not adequate to record a substance (e.g. fluorescein). To record the device that should be used for the test at an INSTRUCTION archetype, also consider the element "Description of Procedure" of "Procedure Request" archetype on CKM, which could be used to specify the device. I hope it was helpful.-- Gustavo BacelarMD + MBA + Med Informatics gustavobacelar.com+351 91 203 2353 +55 71 8831-2860Skype: gustavobacelar ___ openEHR-clinical mailing list openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.openehr.org/pipermail/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20120617/56b74c95/attachment.html>
An ACTION or INSTRUCTION referencing an AGEN, is it possible?
Hi Heather! So the partern to follow is: if you have a demographic concept that should be part of the clinical record, extract the internal structure to a CLUSTER and create an slot to that. Is that the "global solution"? BTW, there's no device modelled as AGENT on the demographic archetypes, shouldn't be that archetype there with an slot to the same CLUSTER? As an example, there is openEHR-DEMOGRAPHIC-ORGANISATION.organisation.v1 and openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.organisation.v1, so I can use the CLUSTER inside an ENTRY and inside the ORGANISATION.The problem with those archetypes is that the ORGANIZATION doesn't reference to the CLUSTER, and worst, they have different internal structures, Should I report this on the CKM? (maybe there are other demographic archetypes with the same problems).In a couple of weeks I'll have more time, if you want I can review all the problematic demographic archetypes, and propose to create CLUTERs for all the internal structures, adding a slot to that CLUSTER on those demographic archetypes. What do you think? -- Kind regards, Ing. Pablo Pazos Guti?rrez LinkedIn: http://uy.linkedin.com/in/pablopazosgutierrez Blog: http://informatica-medica.blogspot.com/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/ppazos From: heather.les...@oceaninformatics.com To: openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org; openehr-clinical at chime.ucl.ac.uk Subject: RE: An ACTION or INSTRUCTION referencing an AGEN, is it possible? Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 14:59:16 +1000 Hi Pablo, There is a CLUSTER.device archetype - http://www.openehr.org/knowledge/OKM.html#showarchetype_1013.1.17 - plus a CLUSTER.device_details archetype - http://www.openehr.org/knowledge/OKM.html#showarchetype_1013.1.844 - that might be of interest. These are modelled as openEHR EHR archetypes so as to be specified within the EHR itself and already used extensively within slots for many OBSERVATION archetypes eg OBS.blood_pressure. In addition, just as you are suggesting, they are intended for use within the Specific Details SLOT in the INSTRUCTION.request family of archetypes or in the Procedure Details SLOT in the ACTION.procedure archetype, as examples. Hope this is helpful Heather From: openehr-technical-bounces at lists.openehr.org [mailto:openehr-technical-bounces at lists.openehr.org] On Behalf Of pablo pazos Sent: Sunday, 17 June 2012 1:11 PM To: openehr clinical; openeh technical Subject: An ACTION or INSTRUCTION referencing an AGEN, is it possible? I'm correcting student papers for the openEHR course in spanish.A student has modelled oftalmologic studies for diabetic patients, with a demographic archetype of AGENT class to model all the devices used on the test. It could be very usefull to let record the device information in the ACTION archetype to say "this is the device we use for this test", or at the INSTRUCTION archetype to say "this is the device that should be used for the test". I'm sure some of you have solved this requirement, and I'll be very thankful if you can enlight me, because I don't see how the information model can solve this. Thanks a lot. -- Kind regards, Ing. Pablo Pazos Guti?rrez LinkedIn: http://uy.linkedin.com/in/pablopazosgutierrez Blog: http://informatica-medica.blogspot.com/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/ppazos ___ openEHR-technical mailing list openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.openehr.org/pipermail/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20120617/e37580df/attachment.html>
An ACTION or INSTRUCTION referencing an AGEN, is it possible?
I'm correcting student papers for the openEHR course in spanish.A student has modelled oftalmologic studies for diabetic patients, with a demographic archetype of AGENT class to model all the devices used on the test. It could be very usefull to let record the device information in the ACTION archetype to say "this is the device we use for this test", or at the INSTRUCTION archetype to say "this is the device that should be used for the test". I'm sure some of you have solved this requirement, and I'll be very thankful if you can enlight me, because I don't see how the information model can solve this. Thanks a lot. -- Kind regards, Ing. Pablo Pazos Guti?rrez LinkedIn: http://uy.linkedin.com/in/pablopazosgutierrez Blog: http://informatica-medica.blogspot.com/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/ppazos -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.openehr.org/pipermail/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20120617/2dd2debd/attachment.html>
