RE: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[leanne wynne]

Hi Robyn,
The original article came from "Popular Science" Vol.260 No. 3. But if you 
go to the Mayo Clinic web-site www.mayo.edu/ultrasound/news you will find a 
much more comprehensive article describing the research. It makes very 
interesting reading.
All the best,
Leanne.


>From: "Robyn Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 08:59:43 +1000
>
>Hi Team and Hi Tina
>The American Food & Drug Administration issued warnings about ultrasound
>over nearly 12 years ago.  They were extremely concerned about the affect 
>on
>the fetus, especially the middle ear and the ovum laid down in the female
>fetus in the last trimester.   They said we would probably not see the
>subtle effects until one or two generations later.
>
>Leanne can you refer me to the article, so I can place it into Hot Topics 
>on
>my website.
>
>Thanks  Robyn
>www.melbmidwifery.com.au
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of leanne wynne
>Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 9:33 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound
>
>
>Hi Tina,
>The article was in "Popular Science" Vol. 260 No.3. It was just a short 
>news
>story describing the research of Mostafa Fatemi of the Mayo clinic in
>Minnesota.
>It said in part: Fatemi "wondered why ... fetuses always seem to move and
>stretch while their (ultrasound) picture is taken. He found out by placing 
>a
>tiny hydrophone inside a woman's uterus during the procedure. The device
>registered up to nearly 100 decibels - as loud as a subway train. While we
>can't hear it, a fetus can, says Fatemi, becuase a 'fetus's ears are filled
>with fluid, which is a better conductor of ultrasound waves than air.'
>There's currently no evedence showing that such noise is harmful, but 
>Fatemi
>says clinicians may want to aim their ultrsound proves more carefully..."
>If I can find the time I will see if I can find some more information about
>Fatemi's research on the web.
>Leanne.
>
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound
> >Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 11:00:16 EDT
> >
> >In a message dated 11/09/02 9:21:51 AM AUS Eastern Standard Time,
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> >
> > > Dear All,
> > > I just wanted to add a note to your comment about the effect of
> >ultrasounds
> > >
> > > on a baby's hearing. Recently my husband pointed-out to me an article
> >about
> > >
> > > ultrasound that he came across in a Science journal. (he is a physics
> > > teacher) The article was speaking about some research designed to
> >discover
> > > why babies move so much during an ultrasound scan. They found that to
> >the
> > > baby the ultrasound waves are the volume of a locomotive train!! Is it
> >any
> > > wonder babies try to get away from it? I will ask him for the name of
> >the
> > > journal so I can post it on Ozmidwifery for everyone.
> > > Leanne,
> > > Midwife, Mildura Aboriginal Health Service.
> >
> >
> >Yes Please LeanneI for one would be very interested!!
> >
> >Yours in midwifery
> >Tina Pettigrew.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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RE: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[Robyn Thompson]

Hi Team and Hi Tina
The American Food & Drug Administration issued warnings about ultrasound
over nearly 12 years ago.  They were extremely concerned about the affect on
the fetus, especially the middle ear and the ovum laid down in the female
fetus in the last trimester.   They said we would probably not see the
subtle effects until one or two generations later.

Leanne can you refer me to the article, so I can place it into Hot Topics on
my website.

Thanks  Robyn
www.melbmidwifery.com.au

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of leanne wynne
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 9:33 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound


Hi Tina,
The article was in "Popular Science" Vol. 260 No.3. It was just a short news
story describing the research of Mostafa Fatemi of the Mayo clinic in
Minnesota.
It said in part: Fatemi "wondered why ... fetuses always seem to move and
stretch while their (ultrasound) picture is taken. He found out by placing a
tiny hydrophone inside a woman's uterus during the procedure. The device
registered up to nearly 100 decibels - as loud as a subway train. While we
can't hear it, a fetus can, says Fatemi, becuase a 'fetus's ears are filled
with fluid, which is a better conductor of ultrasound waves than air.'
There's currently no evedence showing that such noise is harmful, but Fatemi
says clinicians may want to aim their ultrsound proves more carefully..."
If I can find the time I will see if I can find some more information about
Fatemi's research on the web.
Leanne.

>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound
>Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 11:00:16 EDT
>
>In a message dated 11/09/02 9:21:51 AM AUS Eastern Standard Time,
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>
> > Dear All,
> > I just wanted to add a note to your comment about the effect of
>ultrasounds
> >
> > on a baby's hearing. Recently my husband pointed-out to me an article
>about
> >
> > ultrasound that he came across in a Science journal. (he is a physics
> > teacher) The article was speaking about some research designed to
>discover
> > why babies move so much during an ultrasound scan. They found that to
>the
> > baby the ultrasound waves are the volume of a locomotive train!! Is it
>any
> > wonder babies try to get away from it? I will ask him for the name of
>the
> > journal so I can post it on Ozmidwifery for everyone.
> > Leanne,
> > Midwife, Mildura Aboriginal Health Service.
>
>
>Yes Please LeanneI for one would be very interested!!
>
>Yours in midwifery
>Tina Pettigrew.
>
>




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Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[leanne wynne]

Hi Tina,
The article was in "Popular Science" Vol. 260 No.3. It was just a short news 
story describing the research of Mostafa Fatemi of the Mayo clinic in 
Minnesota.
It said in part: Fatemi "wondered why ... fetuses always seem to move and 
stretch while their (ultrasound) picture is taken. He found out by placing a 
tiny hydrophone inside a woman's uterus during the procedure. The device 
registered up to nearly 100 decibels - as loud as a subway train. While we 
can't hear it, a fetus can, says Fatemi, becuase a 'fetus's ears are filled 
with fluid, which is a better conductor of ultrasound waves than air.' 
There's currently no evedence showing that such noise is harmful, but Fatemi 
says clinicians may want to aim their ultrsound proves more carefully..."
If I can find the time I will see if I can find some more information about 
Fatemi's research on the web.
Leanne.

>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound
>Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 11:00:16 EDT
>
>In a message dated 11/09/02 9:21:51 AM AUS Eastern Standard Time,
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>
> > Dear All,
> > I just wanted to add a note to your comment about the effect of 
>ultrasounds
> >
> > on a baby's hearing. Recently my husband pointed-out to me an article 
>about
> >
> > ultrasound that he came across in a Science journal. (he is a physics
> > teacher) The article was speaking about some research designed to 
>discover
> > why babies move so much during an ultrasound scan. They found that to 
>the
> > baby the ultrasound waves are the volume of a locomotive train!! Is it 
>any
> > wonder babies try to get away from it? I will ask him for the name of 
>the
> > journal so I can post it on Ozmidwifery for everyone.
> > Leanne,
> > Midwife, Mildura Aboriginal Health Service.
>
>
>Yes Please LeanneI for one would be very interested!!
>
>Yours in midwifery
>Tina Pettigrew.
>
>




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Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[TinaPettigrew]

In a message dated 11/09/02 9:21:51 AM AUS Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Dear All,
I just wanted to add a note to your comment about the effect of ultrasounds 
on a baby's hearing. Recently my husband pointed-out to me an article about 
ultrasound that he came across in a Science journal. (he is a physics 
teacher) The article was speaking about some research designed to discover 
why babies move so much during an ultrasound scan. They found that to the 
baby the ultrasound waves are the volume of a locomotive train!! Is it any 
wonder babies try to get away from it? I will ask him for the name of the 
journal so I can post it on Ozmidwifery for everyone.
Leanne,
Midwife, Mildura Aboriginal Health Service.


Yes Please LeanneI for one would be very interested!!

Yours in midwifery
Tina Pettigrew.

Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[Margie Perkins]

At Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:12:45 +1000, 
leanne wynne ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 They found that to the  baby the ultrasound waves are the volume of a locomotive 
train!! 
> Is it any 
> wonder babies try to get away from it? I will ask him for the name 
> of the 
> journal so I can post it on Ozmidwifery for everyone.
> Leanne,
> Midwife, Mildura Aboriginal Health Service.
> 

A few months ago I her a psychologist on the radio ( as I was driving so I didn't get 
the whole lot) talking about using ultrasound on babies in utero as a means of 
demonstrating/proving that babies 'interact' with the outside world. ( as if parents 
couldn't tell him so). No diagnostic use: he talked about 'playing' with the baby, as 
I recall seeing how far it would run. Did anyone else hear this interview ? Got 
details of it? I'd like to follow it up.

Margie

Ps I also heard more recently that it is now 'proven' that young babies sounds are 
pre-verbal communication - intentional - because brainscans showing communication 
brain activity tell us so!




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Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[leanne wynne]

Dear All,
I just wanted to add a note to your comment about the effect of ultrasounds 
on a baby's hearing. Recently my husband pointed-out to me an article about 
ultrasound that he came across in a Science journal. (he is a physics 
teacher) The article was speaking about some research designed to discover 
why babies move so much during an ultrasound scan. They found that to the 
baby the ultrasound waves are the volume of a locomotive train!! Is it any 
wonder babies try to get away from it? I will ask him for the name of the 
journal so I can post it on Ozmidwifery for everyone.
Leanne,
Midwife, Mildura Aboriginal Health Service.



>From: "James & Stephanie Fairbairn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound
>Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:19:24 +0930
>
>Has anyone had a pregnant woman complain of heat or pain at the site of a 
>rountine ultrasound? My friend was always very uncomfortable with U/S and 
>said that the baby would always move as if to get away. This happened in 
>both her pregnancies - although she never refused the treament as she felt 
>it was 'part of the process of being pregnant that you couldn't refuse' 
>(she isn't a typically rebellious individual!!!)
>I have heard discussions that postulate that U/S is responsible for among 
>others::>>>: more left handers! - autism - cord tangling around limbs and 
>neck (in the case that the baby moves abnormally to get away from the 
>source of discomfort) and auditory problems (to do with the stage of 
>hearing development and strength of wave used at the foetal age) - Anyone 
>else heard this theory?
>Steph.Adelaide.
>   - Original Message -----
>   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 8:36 PM
>   Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound
>
>
>   In a message dated 9/09/02 10:59:39 AM AUS Eastern Standard Time, 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>
>
> Sounds like an interesting read.  What does AIMS stand
> for?  Any idea when it was published (roughly)?
>
> Thanks, Jen
>
>
>
>
>   Hi Jen...AIMS stands for the Association for the Improvments In 
>Maternity Services ...
>   Ultrasound Unsound was published in 1993...as a special edition of the 
>AIMS Journal...I have a copy on my bookshelf...I'll bring it to UNi on 
>Wednesday Doris Haire has also written extensively on the dangers of 
>routine ultrasonography...published in AIMS Journal Vol 1..Number 
>4-5"The Ultrasound Dilemma"and Joan Donely...the wise woman in 
>NZ...has also written extensively warning women of the "unknowns of 
>ultrasound".
>
>   Cheers Tina




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Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[Aviva Sheb'a]

Thank you deeply, Debbie. My eyes are opened 
further, along with my mind. 
 
Aviva
 The point is that - and I'm sure no-one would doubt 
it - that scans have their place.  In retrospect, I wish that I had had 
more scans with my second child - he may then have had the chance that my third 
did.  But I too didn't see the point, after all I had already had one 
healthy child, and I had concerns over their safety.  I am not saying that 
scans are the way to go far from it - just that scans do have a role - just as 
(dare I say it) do caesarean sections. :-)Debbie SlaterPerth, 
WA 

Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[James & Stephanie Fairbairn]

Has anyone had a pregnant woman complain of heat or 
pain at the site of a rountine ultrasound? My friend was always very 
uncomfortable with U/S and said that the baby would always move as if to get 
away. This happened in both her pregnancies - although she never refused the 
treament as she felt it was 'part of the process of being pregnant that you 
couldn't refuse' (she isn't a typically rebellious individual!!!)
I have heard discussions that postulate that U/S is 
responsible for among others::>>>: more left handers! - autism - cord 
tangling around limbs and neck (in the case that the baby moves abnormally to 
get away from the source of discomfort) and auditory problems (to do with the 
stage of hearing development and strength of wave used at the foetal age) - 
Anyone else heard this theory?
Steph.Adelaide.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 8:36 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal 
  ultrasound
  In a message dated 9/09/02 10:59:39 AM AUS Eastern Standard 
  Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Sounds like an interesting read.  What does AIMS 
standfor?  Any idea when it was published (roughly)?Thanks, 
JenHi Jen...AIMS stands for the Association for 
  the Improvments In Maternity Services ...Ultrasound Unsound was published 
  in 1993...as a special edition of the AIMS Journal...I have a copy on my 
  bookshelf...I'll bring it to UNi on Wednesday Doris Haire has also written 
  extensively on the dangers of routine ultrasonography...published in AIMS 
  Journal Vol 1..Number 4-5"The Ultrasound Dilemma"and Joan Donely...the 
  wise woman in NZ...has also written extensively warning women of the "unknowns 
  of ultrasound".Cheers Tina 

Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[TinaPettigrew]

In a message dated 9/09/02 10:59:39 AM AUS Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Sounds like an interesting read.  What does AIMS stand
for?  Any idea when it was published (roughly)?

Thanks, Jen



Hi Jen...AIMS stands for the Association for the Improvments In Maternity Services ...
Ultrasound Unsound was published in 1993...as a special edition of the AIMS Journal...I have a copy on my bookshelf...I'll bring it to UNi on Wednesday Doris Haire has also written extensively on the dangers of routine ultrasonography...published in AIMS Journal Vol 1..Number 4-5"The Ultrasound Dilemma"and Joan Donely...the wise woman in NZ...has also written extensively warning women of the "unknowns of ultrasound".

Cheers Tina

Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[Leigh Evans]

AIMS stands for Association for Improvement of Maternity Services.
Ultrasound unsound was published in 1993. Leigh
- Original Message -
From: "Jen Semple" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound


> Sounds like an interesting read.  What does AIMS stand
> for?  Any idea when it was published (roughly)?
>
> Thanks, Jen
>
>  --- Mary Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "We
> read the AIMS booklet on ultrasound,"  It is called
> "ultrasound, unsound" MM
>
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Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[Jen Semple]

Sounds like an interesting read.  What does AIMS stand
for?  Any idea when it was published (roughly)?

Thanks, Jen

 --- Mary Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "We
read the AIMS booklet on ultrasound,"  It is called
"ultrasound, unsound" MM

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Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[Marilyn Kleidon]

Dear Larissa: I think this sort of "extra" medical care exists in all parts
of the "medical industry" they (whoever they may be doctors, pr people
advertisers, martketeers) have created a population of "worried well" who
just want to be sure nothing is wrong at any stage of our lives. Partly I
think this is because we are largely a well population mainly beseiged now
by diseases of laziness and glutony (myself included) unwilling to take
personal responsibility for our own health care. For medical practitioners
of all types providing care to a well population is an income challenge
hence the promotion of wellness technologies: the shole body CAT scan to
detect any abnormality before it manifests, even perhaps dental cleaning ( I
personally like getting my teeth cleaned and go eagerly for my twice yearly
clean when I have a dental plan that covers it). So, I don't think it is too
amazing that this attitude to health care flows onto pregnancy care even
well pregnancy care. I think we need a whole change of attitude to our
health and probably some good PR and marketing. EEK!
marilyn
- Original Message -
From: "Larry & Megan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ozmidwifery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 11:56 PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound


> I was thinking about asking about vaginal US last week as I listened to a
> girlfriend tell me about her personal need to have two done to prove she
was
> pregnant. The first was done too early and they only saw a sack. It is
> becoming the norm, her girlfriend has had numerous scans done as well due
to
> having miscarried once.
> Women are more and more being taught how unreliable their bodies are at
> having a baby.
> We were under more pressure from well intentioned friends for not having
an
> ultrasound at all with nunmber three than I could have imagined. We read
the
> AIMS booklet on ultrasound, forget the title, great information and easy
> enough for lay people to understand. Thoroughly recommend it.
> Until birth is returned to women, their families and midwives I see this
> type of care only increasing.
>
> Megan.
>
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Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[DebSlater]

In a message dated 9/8/02 8:01:19 PM W. Australia Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


I refused ultrasounds with both pregnancies. I wanted proof that they could not possibly do my babies any harm. 

As with all things, there are two sides to every coin.

Without ultrasound, my youngest child would - quite simply - not be here.

With my second child I had U/S at 16 weeks (in the UK) and that was it.  At 30 weeks I went into labour and, although my baby was born alive, he died aged 40 minutes.  He was hydropic with fluid in both chest cavities.  Despite a post mortum and a battery of tests on him and me, no cause was found.

When pregnant again I was scanned regularly, and at 28 weeks gestation, my son was also found to be hydropic - again with pleural effusions.  In this case, my son had chest drains inserted in utero, and was born at 34 weeks.  His chest drains were removed immediately at birth, spent 12 days in special care, but never had any problems thereafter.  He is now nearly 8.

The point is that - and I'm sure no-one would doubt it - that scans have their place.  In retrospect, I wish that I had had more scans with my second child - he may then have had the chance that my third did.  But I too didn't see the point, after all I had already had one healthy child, and I had concerns over their safety.  I am not saying that scans are the way to go far from it - just that scans do have a role - just as (dare I say it) do caesarean sections. :-)

Debbie Slater
Perth, WA

Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[Mary Murphy]

"We read the AIMS booklet on ultrasound," 
It is called "ultrasound, unsound" MM

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Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[Aviva Sheb'a]

I refused ultrasounds with both pregnancies. I 
wanted proof that they could not possibly do my babies any harm. No proof, no 
u/s. And yes, I've also had miscarriages, been exposed to chemicals in the 
Vietnam war. I wanted to take full responsibility for whatever happened. 

 
Aviva
- Original Message - 
From: Larry & 
Megan 
To: ozmidwifery 
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 4:26 PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound
I was thinking about asking about vaginal US last week as I 
listened to agirlfriend tell me about her personal need to have two done to 
prove she waspregnant. 

[ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound

[Larry & Megan]

I was thinking about asking about vaginal US last week as I listened to a
girlfriend tell me about her personal need to have two done to prove she was
pregnant. The first was done too early and they only saw a sack. It is
becoming the norm, her girlfriend has had numerous scans done as well due to
having miscarried once.
Women are more and more being taught how unreliable their bodies are at
having a baby.
We were under more pressure from well intentioned friends for not having an
ultrasound at all with nunmber three than I could have imagined. We read the
AIMS booklet on ultrasound, forget the title, great information and easy
enough for lay people to understand. Thoroughly recommend it.
Until birth is returned to women, their families and midwives I see this
type of care only increasing.

Megan.

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