Re: D645 musings
Rob, I don't think you can be sure what will happen when the D645 emerges. There are all sorts of reasons, generally to do with cost and convenience, why people don't use MF as much as 35mm (and now, D-APS). I had a Bronica ETRS for a while, but the problems of getting film developed and printed (slides being too big for normal projectors) meant I didn't use it much. But these problems don't apply with digital. If the 645 does come out with a price tag of £6,000, then many people might be tempted to buy one in addition to (and possibly even instead of) a D-APS. I'm not holding my breath for this camera, but if it does appear within say 18 months, and if the price is lowish, then it might be a much bigger success than its film predecessor. Only time will tell. John On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:06:16 +1000, Rob Studdert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 24 Mar 2005 at 21:23, Paul Stenquist wrote: In truth, I had the same thought as John. some of the 645 lenses are relatively inexpensive right now. I expect there will be some price rise. Twenty percent isn't at all unrealistic. And if you can make twenty percent on your money in a year or so, you're doing quite well. I don't think anyone can realistically expect anything like what appears to have happened in the 35mm market due to a not yet realized camera which will have a far far smaller market penetration than the 645 film cameras ever did. My expectation is that even if the 645 DSLR does eventually appear there will remain an abundance of used lenses and at best you may see prices rise a little. However even a 50% rise wouldn't offset the sales fees, shipping costs or time and effort expended to purchase and then re-sell the items at these prices. I can confidently say that two years ago I sold my last 645 kit for least 300% more cash than I could achieve for the same gear today. Plus as a bonus the $US to $AU exchange rate was in my favour as a seller. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 23/03/2005
Re: D645 musings
Dag, There is an excellent AF 35mm/3.5 for the 645. With the crop factor of 1.3, maybe a 28mm would do the trick. :-) Cheers, Jostein - Original Message - From: DagT [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 8:45 AM Subject: Re: D645 musings På 24. mar. 2005 kl. 09.18 skrev Rob Studdert: On 24 Mar 2005 at 8:06, DagT wrote: Hey, they have just shown that they don´t even know how the camera will look. They can easily design a new wide angle before the camera gets to the market. Yep, all they need is time, cash and personnel. Let´s hope they can get some help from Kodak. A successful 645D would help them sell more sensors. All Pentax needs to do is to make a 35mm 2.8 to fill the missing gap in the lens line. DagT
Re: D645 musings
the only one of the big 5 to revise their profit forecast upwards is Canon. there are speculations by financial analysts that as soon as the replacement for the Nikon D70 is announced, there's going to be the start of the same price war as we a saw in digital PS cameras. the entry level DSLRs from Canon, Nikon, Pentax, and Olympus are basically the same. what's the differentiator when that happens? megapixel and price wars. Herb... - Original Message - From: Rob Studdert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 3:18 AM Subject: Re: D645 musings Yep, all they need is time, cash and personnel.
Re: D645 musings
Herb Chong wrote on 24.03.05 12:34: the only one of the big 5 to revise their profit forecast upwards is Canon. there are speculations by financial analysts that as soon as the replacement for the Nikon D70 is announced, there's going to be the start of the same price war as we a saw in digital PS cameras. the entry level DSLRs from Canon, Nikon, Pentax, and Olympus are basically the same. what's the differentiator when that happens? megapixel and price wars. Replacement for D70 (it will be called D70s and will appear soon) will not be a reason for a new price war. Both - Nikon and Olympus plan to release something even chepaer very soon. AFAIK Nikon will call it D50 and it will be much cheaper than D70... It should appear around April or May. If the rumours come true - that would mean price range around 500-600 EURO(!) At last DSLRs would become available to almost everyone. Let's hope Pentax will catch up. -- Balance is the ultimate good... Best Regards Sylwek
Re: D645 musings
Dag wrote: Let´s hope they can get some help from Kodak. A successful 645D would help them sell more sensors. Based on a press release a couple of years ago (I think it was), I believe this isn't a case of Pentax buying an off-shelf sensor from Kodak. It was said that Pentax and Kodak had signed an agreement of developing a digital solution for Pentax MF. I think it is resonable to assume that Pentax have had serious input in the sensor design, something that makes this DSLR different from almost all other digital solution for MF that are, as far as I know, based on off-the-shelf commodities. Pål
Re: D645 musings
Herb wrote: there are speculations by financial analysts that as soon as the replacement for the Nikon D70 is announced, there's going to be the start of the same price war as we a saw in digital PS cameras. the entry level DSLRs from Canon, Nikon, Pentax, and Olympus are basically the same. what's the differentiator when that happens? megapixel and price wars. Yep, and thats why a 645D may make sense (dependent on price): there are not that many competitors and no one in the foreseeable future that can provide such a raft of affordable (for medium format) lenses, both new and used. And again they are even affordable by high-end 35mm standards. Even if you could afford a digital Hasselblad, bying a comprehensive line of Carl Zeiss optics is prohibitive expensive if you don't own them already. In addition no other MF system offers such a range of modern lenses, and with this I think mostly zooms, as Pentax does. Both price on lenses and their character make a Pentax 645 Digital a real alternative to high-end 35mm based DSLR for most usages. The 645D id the first MF Pentax DSLR. My guess is that it won't be the last. We will se lower prices and more Mpix with time. Pål
Re: D645 musings
I was actully looking at ebay and it occured to me that maybe Pentax is too late coming out with a digital 645. For instance: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=3353item=7503024825rd=1 Could Pentax have retained more customers by coming out with the D645 earlier? Village Idiot - Original Message - From: Herb Chong Subject: Re: D645 musings at what price? Rob asked and you weren't one of the ones that answered. if it streets for $6K as Paal hopes, there could be lots. at $12K, there's going to be a lot fewer. if those 645 lenses are just sitting around right now not being used, that's not a great justification for spending $10K to get some use out of them. if you have the spare cash to do this just because you feel like it, you're welcome to do it. i'm sure there are going to be lots of people willing to grant you bragging rights. I'm not interested in 645. Hence, no answer. I found it pretty easy to justify almost 3 grand for an istD when it hit the Canadian market, as I had a bunch of K mount lenses to use with it. For me, it was far easier to justify an expensive body than a slightly less expensive body (Canon digital Rebel) and a complete lens line replacement. Maybe for you, bragging rights mean something, for me, it's about using the equipment I already own, including my lenses. William Robb
Re: D645 musings
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005, Village Idiot wrote: I was actully looking at ebay and it occured to me that maybe Pentax is too late coming out with a digital 645. For instance: I understand where you are cominmg from, but please don't post ongoing auctions. Thanks, Kostas
Re: D645 musings
Sorry, especially since I could have easily posted a closed one to demonstrate the same point. I didn't know or think of that. Village Idiot. On Thu, 24 Mar 2005, Village Idiot wrote: I was actully looking at ebay and it occured to me that maybe Pentax is too late coming out with a digital 645. For instance: I understand where you are cominmg from, but please don't post ongoing auctions. Thanks, Kostas
Re: D645 musings
On 24/3/05, Village Idiot, discombobulated, unleashed: Sorry, especially since I could have easily posted a closed one to demonstrate the same point. I didn't know or think of that. HTH http://www.graywolfphoto.com/pentax/pdml-faq.html Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: D645 musings
On 24 Mar 2005 at 16:50, Village Idiot wrote: I was actully looking at ebay and it occured to me that maybe Pentax is too late coming out with a digital 645. For instance: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=3353item=7503024825rd=1 Could Pentax have retained more customers by coming out with the D645 earlier? Bad to post live auctions but a good example of what I've been suggesting none the less. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: D645 musings
Their picture doesn't constitute a very good advertisement for a professional photography studio. Perhaps they'd better go back to using film. John On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:14:30 +1000, Rob Studdert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 24 Mar 2005 at 16:50, Village Idiot wrote: I was actully looking at ebay and it occured to me that maybe Pentax is too late coming out with a digital 645. For instance: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=3353item=7503024825rd=1 Could Pentax have retained more customers by coming out with the D645 earlier? Bad to post live auctions but a good example of what I've been suggesting none the less. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 23/03/2005
Re: D645 musings
On 24 Mar 2005 at 23:31, John Forbes wrote: Their picture doesn't constitute a very good advertisement for a professional photography studio. Perhaps they'd better go back to using film. There are plenty more examples if you check the closed auctions, this stuff isn't moving like hot-cakes regardless of how pretty the eBay pics are or how competent the sellers are as photographers. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
RE: D645 musings
-Original Message- From: Sylwester Pietrzyk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Replacement for D70 (it will be called D70s and will appear soon) Both - Nikon and Olympus plan to release something even chepaer very soon. AFAIK Nikon will call it D50 Konica-Minolta (what a stupid idea combining the names was) are due to release a lower price dslr soon in addition to a higher end one. -- Peter Williams
Re: D645 musings
I wasn't insinuating that the poor picture was depressing the price; it was just an aside. If I were a gambling man, I might be tempted to buy some of these bargains and wait for a DS effect on MF lenses when the D645 emerges. John On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:40:06 +1000, Rob Studdert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 24 Mar 2005 at 23:31, John Forbes wrote: Their picture doesn't constitute a very good advertisement for a professional photography studio. Perhaps they'd better go back to using film. There are plenty more examples if you check the closed auctions, this stuff isn't moving like hot-cakes regardless of how pretty the eBay pics are or how competent the sellers are as photographers. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 23/03/2005
Re: D645 musings
On 25 Mar 2005 at 0:07, John Forbes wrote: If I were a gambling man, I might be tempted to buy some of these bargains and wait for a DS effect on MF lenses when the D645 emerges. LOL, I expect you'd be waiting a mighty long time :-) Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: D645 musings
In truth, I had the same thought as John. some of the 645 lenses are relatively inexpensive right now. I expect there will be some price rise. Twenty percent isn't at all unrealistic. And if you can make twenty percent on your money in a year or so, you're doing quite well. Paul On Mar 24, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Rob Studdert wrote: On 25 Mar 2005 at 0:07, John Forbes wrote: If I were a gambling man, I might be tempted to buy some of these bargains and wait for a DS effect on MF lenses when the D645 emerges. LOL, I expect you'd be waiting a mighty long time :-) Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: D645 musings
On 24 Mar 2005 at 21:23, Paul Stenquist wrote: In truth, I had the same thought as John. some of the 645 lenses are relatively inexpensive right now. I expect there will be some price rise. Twenty percent isn't at all unrealistic. And if you can make twenty percent on your money in a year or so, you're doing quite well. I don't think anyone can realistically expect anything like what appears to have happened in the 35mm market due to a not yet realized camera which will have a far far smaller market penetration than the 645 film cameras ever did. My expectation is that even if the 645 DSLR does eventually appear there will remain an abundance of used lenses and at best you may see prices rise a little. However even a 50% rise wouldn't offset the sales fees, shipping costs or time and effort expended to purchase and then re-sell the items at these prices. I can confidently say that two years ago I sold my last 645 kit for least 300% more cash than I could achieve for the same gear today. Plus as a bonus the $US to $AU exchange rate was in my favour as a seller. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: D645 musings
there were 3rd party alternatives immediately, before the camera even shipped. if landscape photographers are the primary market, then wide is very important. i shoot landscapes sometimes on my *istD with my 80-200 and my 400, but that's not more than 10% of the time. Herb... - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 7:11 AM Subject: Re: D645 musings They didn't announce the 14mm with the *istD either but it came.
Re: D645 musings
at what price? Rob asked and you weren't one of the ones that answered. if it streets for $6K as Paal hopes, there could be lots. at $12K, there's going to be a lot fewer. if those 645 lenses are just sitting around right now not being used, that's not a great justification for spending $10K to get some use out of them. if you have the spare cash to do this just because you feel like it, you're welcome to do it. i'm sure there are going to be lots of people willing to grant you bragging rights. Herb - Original Message - From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 7:11 AM Subject: Re: D645 musings You are treating this like as if every buyer is starting out fresh and buying into a system. There are a lot of 645 lenses sitting around right now, and a lot of lens owners who would like a digital body to use them on.
Re: D645 musings
- Original Message - From: Herb Chong Subject: Re: D645 musings at what price? Rob asked and you weren't one of the ones that answered. if it streets for $6K as Paal hopes, there could be lots. at $12K, there's going to be a lot fewer. if those 645 lenses are just sitting around right now not being used, that's not a great justification for spending $10K to get some use out of them. if you have the spare cash to do this just because you feel like it, you're welcome to do it. i'm sure there are going to be lots of people willing to grant you bragging rights. I'm not interested in 645. Hence, no answer. I found it pretty easy to justify almost 3 grand for an istD when it hit the Canadian market, as I had a bunch of K mount lenses to use with it. For me, it was far easier to justify an expensive body than a slightly less expensive body (Canon digital Rebel) and a complete lens line replacement. Maybe for you, bragging rights mean something, for me, it's about using the equipment I already own, including my lenses. William Robb
Re: D645 musings
and if it was $6K instead? Herb... - Original Message - From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:33 PM Subject: Re: D645 musings I found it pretty easy to justify almost 3 grand for an istD when it hit the Canadian market, as I had a bunch of K mount lenses to use with it.
Re: D645 musings
- Original Message - From: Herb Chong Subject: Re: D645 musings and if it was $6K instead? Then I would have waited until the price dropped. With the 645 digital, I think waiting to see what they make, and at what price they put on it is saner than getting all piss faced that the thing may or may not be too pricey. The market will decide the price, for the most part anyway. William Robb
Re: D645 musings
Hey, they have just shown that they don´t even know how the camera will look. They can easily design a new wide angle before the camera gets to the market. DagT På 24. mar. 2005 kl. 03.12 skrev Herb Chong: there were 3rd party alternatives immediately, before the camera even shipped. if landscape photographers are the primary market, then wide is very important. i shoot landscapes sometimes on my *istD with my 80-200 and my 400, but that's not more than 10% of the time. Herb... - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 7:11 AM Subject: Re: D645 musings They didn't announce the 14mm with the *istD either but it came.
Re: D645 musings
On 24 Mar 2005 at 8:06, DagT wrote: Hey, they have just shown that they don´t even know how the camera will look. They can easily design a new wide angle before the camera gets to the market. Yep, all they need is time, cash and personnel. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: D645 musings
På 24. mar. 2005 kl. 09.18 skrev Rob Studdert: On 24 Mar 2005 at 8:06, DagT wrote: Hey, they have just shown that they don´t even know how the camera will look. They can easily design a new wide angle before the camera gets to the market. Yep, all they need is time, cash and personnel. Let´s hope they can get some help from Kodak. A successful 645D would help them sell more sensors. All Pentax needs to do is to make a 35mm 2.8 to fill the missing gap in the lens line. DagT
Re: D645 musings
when? they haven't announced one. it's another lens to buy as part of the cost. Herb - Original Message - From: DagT [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 1:23 AM Subject: Re: D645 musings They can just make a new wide angle, like the 14mm.
Re: D645 musings
They didn't announce the 14mm with the *istD either but it came. Yes, there is a shift in the angle of view of our lenses. Those who like long lenses are pleased, but not those who like wide angles. The choice is whether to put the cost in a large sensor with possible vignetting problems but unchanged angle of view or in a new lens and shift in the AOV of the rest. In the first case all the users pay, even those who don't want wide angles, in the second case those who like wide angles pay and in return they get less vignetting problems (at least with todays technology). DagT fra: Herb Chong [EMAIL PROTECTED] when? they haven't announced one. it's another lens to buy as part of the cost. Herb - Original Message - From: DagT [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 1:23 AM Subject: Re: D645 musings They can just make a new wide angle, like the 14mm.
Re: D645 musings
- Original Message - From: Herb Chong Subject: Re: D645 musings when? they haven't announced one. it's another lens to buy as part of the cost. You are treating this like as if every buyer is starting out fresh and buying into a system. There are a lot of 645 lenses sitting around right now, and a lot of lens owners who would like a digital body to use them on. William Robb
Re: D645 musings
William wrote: There are a lot of 645 lenses sitting around right now, and a lot of lens owners who would like a digital body to use them on. And lets not forget the 67 lenses too. They fit a 645 body with full functionality. The 645D will work as a digital solution for 67 system owners as well. And then there are those who think 35mm is whimpy even for digital... I'll say the camera has lots of potential... Pål
Re: D645 musings
I was ready to sell my 67 lenses. I'm keeping them at least until I hear a price for the D645. William wrote: There are a lot of 645 lenses sitting around right now, and a lot of lens owners who would like a digital body to use them on. And lets not forget the 67 lenses too. They fit a 645 body with full functionality. The 645D will work as a digital solution for 67 system owners as well. And then there are those who think 35mm is whimpy even for digital... I'll say the camera has lots of potential... Pål
Re: D645 musings
- Original Message - From: Pål Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] And lets not forget the 67 lenses too. They fit a 645 body with full functionality. The 645D will work as a digital solution for 67 system owners as well. And then there are those who think 35mm is whimpy even for digital... I'll say the camera has lots of potential... The potential is there indeed. Even if the 67 lenses does not provide full functionality. YMMV, but I do remember the gripes about K-mount compatibility and the *istD. If they use logic from the *istD/*istDs cameras, the 67 lenses will have the same compatibility level to 645 as the M an K lenses in the 35mm realm. Which means a semi-automatic stop-down metering by the press of a button. BTW, this quote is from the FAQ section at Pentax UK (http://www.pentax.co.uk/photographic/faq_lenses.html) Q: Is it possible to use 67 lenses on 645/645n body? A: Yes - you need a 645 Adapter for 67 [38454]. Open aperture metering and three of the 645's exposure modes can be used: aperture priority; TTL flash; and metered manual. Jostein
Re: D645 musings
On 23 Mar 2005 at 14:48, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was ready to sell my 67 lenses. I'm keeping them at least until I hear a price for the D645. Probably a good idea, it might cost you money selling them at the moment, you could have to pay people to take them :-) Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: D645 musings
On 23 Mar 2005 at 22:42, Jostein wrote: If they use logic from the *istD/*istDs cameras, the 67 lenses will have the same compatibility level to 645 as the M an K lenses in the 35mm realm. Which means a semi-automatic stop-down metering by the press of a button. Then they'd also have to produce a new 67 to 645 adaptor. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: D645 musings
Mark wrote: My guess is between USD 15,000 and 20,000. They're going to try to undercut the Mamiya, but probably won't be able to do so by very much. REPLY: I'm far more optimistic. I think it will cost $6000. Pål
Re: D645 musings
Rob wrote: If they make it out at that price then all the other comparable cameras will also have come down in price, Pentax don't have some kind of magic price wand. REPLY: Of course Pentax have a magical wand. They have or years sold MF cameras of top quality at half the price of the competition. The reason is that the competition need to pay the electricity bill, the cleaning woman, the rent, the wages, the engineers from selling a few thousand expensive camera bodies a year. Pentax can pay all these costs by selling litterally tens of million of cameras a year. In addition, Pentax can afford to have a loss leader as well in this segment something thats much harder for those companies who make MF cameras for a living. Pål
Re: D645 musings
the article on Luminous Landscape (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pie-show.shtml) says competitive with the price of the Mamiya ZD. since the ZD is slated to list for $12K USD, it only firms up my assertion that the 645D will come in at a list price of between $10K and $11K USD. they can't charge the same since it's 18 megapixels vs. 22 megapixels. 6 times the price of the 645 is 6 times a little less than $2K = about $11K. street price will be pretty close to that for quite a while after first delivery. even after all this, where is the new wide angle 645D lens? the D has a 1.3 crop factor. what is the point of a body designed to be superb at landscapes without a wide enough angle lens to do any landscapes? Herb - Original Message - From: Pål Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 7:32 AM Subject: Re: D645 musings I'm far more optimistic. I think it will cost $6000.
Re: D645 musings
Herb wrote: the article on Luminous Landscape (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pie-show.shtml) says competitive with the price of the Mamiya ZD. since the ZD is slated to list for $12K USD, it only firms up my assertion that the 645D will come in at a list price of between $10K and $11K USD. they can't charge the same since it's 18 megapixels vs. 22 megapixels. 6 times the price of the 645 is 6 times a little less than $2K = about $11K. street price will be pretty close to that for quite a while after first delivery. even after all this, where is the new wide angle 645D lens? the D has a 1.3 crop factor. what is the point of a body designed to be superb at landscapes without a wide enough angle lens to do any landscapes? a) isn't it a good idea to wait and see what the price is? For what it is worth it was apparently said at the show that it will sell for less than $10K. b) Isn't it an equally good idea to wait and see if theres wider lenses released along with the camera before one write it off?
Re: D645 musings
- Original Message - From: Pål Jensen Subject: Re: D645 musings b) Isn't it an equally good idea to wait and see if theres wider lenses released along with the camera before one write it off? Even if they don't release any wides (I expect they will, BTW), people are buying 2/3 frame digital bodies, even though there still aren't a lot of good wide angle options, and were no wide angle options at all a short while ago. There is more to landscapes than wide angle lenses. For myself, I mostly use standard to short telephoto for landscapes anyway. William Robb
Re: D645 musings
They can just make a new wide angle, like the 14mm. DagT På 23. mar. 2005 kl. 02.26 skrev Herb Chong: the article on Luminous Landscape (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pie-show.shtml) says competitive with the price of the Mamiya ZD. since the ZD is slated to list for $12K USD, it only firms up my assertion that the 645D will come in at a list price of between $10K and $11K USD. they can't charge the same since it's 18 megapixels vs. 22 megapixels. 6 times the price of the 645 is 6 times a little less than $2K = about $11K. street price will be pretty close to that for quite a while after first delivery. even after all this, where is the new wide angle 645D lens? the D has a 1.3 crop factor. what is the point of a body designed to be superb at landscapes without a wide enough angle lens to do any landscapes? Herb - Original Message - From: Pål Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 7:32 AM Subject: Re: D645 musings I'm far more optimistic. I think it will cost $6000.
Re: D645 musings
Can't even blame the spell checker for that. Maybe the excitement of the moment . . . Steven Desjardins Department of Chemistry Washington and Lee University Lexington, VA 24450 (540) 458-8873 FAX: (540) 458-8878 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/17/05 3:58 PM Steve Desjardins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's OK. From my point of view, not a lot of difference between 10K and 15K, ie., too high. That's my point of view, too. There's no difference between $8k and $22k for all practical (that is, relating to my bank balance and credit card limits!) purposes. BTW Steve, as a chemist you should know better than to use K instead of k for 1000. I mean I'm sure the 645D is going to be a pretty hot item, but still... ;-) -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
D645 musings
Some thoughts on the D645... Pentax' strategy in MedF has all the time been to create robust, compact packages that would suit the outdoor photographer better than the competition. I would expect this tradition to be carried on into digital. For such a kind of camera, there are some quite specific challenges. One challenge is power. Another is storage capacity for those huge files. A third is buffer capacity, and a fourth is ruggedness and portability combined. After thinking this over lunch today (yes, I did remember to chew...), I got very curious to see how eg. the Hasselblad H1D has approached these problems. The power solution is two-part. In the grip there are some pretty diminutive Sony CR123 batteries, which I assume will only provide power for the traditional camera logic, ie. sans chip power and storage. There is also mention of an optional battery called Sony InfoLithium L series battery. This is a camcorder battery which looks rather bulky (6x7x4 cm), but will give 6600 mAh according to Sony: http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?ProductSKU=NPF970 I'm quite curious about the file size. The H1D files can be up to 132 Mb in 16 bit, so a comparable file of 18 Mpx would probably be around a 100 Mb. Unless there's some compression involved. Hopefully Pentax will use compression. The storage capacity solution looks okay, an image bank capable of 850 full res images (probably 8-bit, but still). There probably aren't very many options around, but this is most likely a power hog. With 100 Mb files, changing microdrives or memory cards could become rather tedious. The H1D doesn't support continuous shooting at all. Buffer size is in other words down to one image. For outdoor photography, Pentax has to do better than that, imo. When it comes to ruggedness and portability, the H1D looks quite nice. Actually, inside a studio it handles quite well too, but I don't have any outdoor experience with it. Even if it looks rugged it has an air of a studio tool. The necessary camcorder battery would add 300g of weight to it, and make it rather more bulky. Pentax would have to ease in a much more elegant solution than that. Considering the pricetag on H1D, I don't think the D645 is going to be a camera below USD 10.000. Maybe even above USD 15.000. The price difference between 18,6 and 22 Mpx isn't going to be the driving factor here, IMHO. Finally, I don't think a comparison with Canon's D1sII is even worthwhile. When it comes to portability, power consumtion, ruggedness, etc, etc, the Canon will win hands down. At least if the Hassy in anythin to go by (and should be since it's built around a sensor of the same family). When a comparison was done in the film domain, Pentax 645 was on par weightwise with a comparable Canon system for 35mm, but a mere diffrence of 2 Megapixels is not going to tip the balance towards Pentax with increased image quality like the 645 negative could do compared to 35mm. I'm sure the D645 will find a place in the market, but not anywhere near me...:-) Jostein This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: D645 musings
I´m not that pessimistic. Regarding file size I can´t see why a 18,6MP camera should have very much larger files than Canon´s 16MP or Kodak´s 14MP. A few percent of course corresponding to the number of pixels. The same with the buffer size, and with MF we are used to slow cameras. One picture each second wouldn´t be regarded as a very big problem. Battery capacity is an issue, as the CCD´s are more power consuming than CMOS, but I´m not sure if the FF Kodak cameras are that much worse than the Canons. Another thing is that CCD´s are slower than CMOS, but on the other hand they at least in theory have better dynamics, so you with a good CCD sensor you trade speed for colour and contrast quality. I think that is the right choice for a digital MF. I´f I should choose a new system I might choose the 645D because I´m not very interested in speed, but in file quality, and after what I´ve seen of vignetting problems in the 1Ds I´d prefer a system with telecentric wide angles specialized for the sensors rather than a system that pushes the technology to allow you to use old lenses. DagT På 17. mar. 2005 kl. 16.36 skrev Jostein: Some thoughts on the D645... Pentax' strategy in MedF has all the time been to create robust, compact packages that would suit the outdoor photographer better than the competition. I would expect this tradition to be carried on into digital. For such a kind of camera, there are some quite specific challenges. One challenge is power. Another is storage capacity for those huge files. A third is buffer capacity, and a fourth is ruggedness and portability combined. After thinking this over lunch today (yes, I did remember to chew...), I got very curious to see how eg. the Hasselblad H1D has approached these problems. The power solution is two-part. In the grip there are some pretty diminutive Sony CR123 batteries, which I assume will only provide power for the traditional camera logic, ie. sans chip power and storage. There is also mention of an optional battery called Sony InfoLithium L series battery. This is a camcorder battery which looks rather bulky (6x7x4 cm), but will give 6600 mAh according to Sony: http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/ SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?ProductSKU=NPF970 I'm quite curious about the file size. The H1D files can be up to 132 Mb in 16 bit, so a comparable file of 18 Mpx would probably be around a 100 Mb. Unless there's some compression involved. Hopefully Pentax will use compression. The storage capacity solution looks okay, an image bank capable of 850 full res images (probably 8-bit, but still). There probably aren't very many options around, but this is most likely a power hog. With 100 Mb files, changing microdrives or memory cards could become rather tedious. The H1D doesn't support continuous shooting at all. Buffer size is in other words down to one image. For outdoor photography, Pentax has to do better than that, imo. When it comes to ruggedness and portability, the H1D looks quite nice. Actually, inside a studio it handles quite well too, but I don't have any outdoor experience with it. Even if it looks rugged it has an air of a studio tool. The necessary camcorder battery would add 300g of weight to it, and make it rather more bulky. Pentax would have to ease in a much more elegant solution than that. Considering the pricetag on H1D, I don't think the D645 is going to be a camera below USD 10.000. Maybe even above USD 15.000. The price difference between 18,6 and 22 Mpx isn't going to be the driving factor here, IMHO. Finally, I don't think a comparison with Canon's D1sII is even worthwhile. When it comes to portability, power consumtion, ruggedness, etc, etc, the Canon will win hands down. At least if the Hassy in anythin to go by (and should be since it's built around a sensor of the same family). When a comparison was done in the film domain, Pentax 645 was on par weightwise with a comparable Canon system for 35mm, but a mere diffrence of 2 Megapixels is not going to tip the balance towards Pentax with increased image quality like the 645 negative could do compared to 35mm. I'm sure the D645 will find a place in the market, but not anywhere near me...:-) Jostein This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: D645 musings
Jostein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think the D645 is going to be a camera below USD 10.000. Maybe even above USD 15.000. My guess is between USD 15,000 and 20,000. They're going to try to undercut the Mamiya, but probably won't be able to do so by very much. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: D645 musings
På 17. mar. 2005 kl. 18.45 skrev Mark Roberts: Jostein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think the D645 is going to be a camera below USD 10.000. Maybe even above USD 15.000. My guess is between USD 15,000 and 20,000. They're going to try to undercut the Mamiya, but probably won't be able to do so by very much. Not if this translation is correct: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036message=12694071 DagT
Re: D645 musings
DagT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: På 17. mar. 2005 kl. 18.45 skrev Mark Roberts: Jostein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think the D645 is going to be a camera below USD 10.000. Maybe even above USD 15.000. My guess is between USD 15,000 and 20,000. They're going to try to undercut the Mamiya, but probably won't be able to do so by very much. Not if this translation is correct: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036message=12694071 They're dreaming. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: D645 musings
That's OK. From my point of view, not a lot of difference between 10K and 15K, ie., too high. Steven Desjardins Department of Chemistry Washington and Lee University Lexington, VA 24450 (540) 458-8873 FAX: (540) 458-8878 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/17/05 1:44 PM DagT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: På 17. mar. 2005 kl. 18.45 skrev Mark Roberts: Jostein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think the D645 is going to be a camera below USD 10.000. Maybe even above USD 15.000. My guess is between USD 15,000 and 20,000. They're going to try to undercut the Mamiya, but probably won't be able to do so by very much. Not if this translation is correct: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036message=12694071 They're dreaming. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: D645 musings
Steve Desjardins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's OK. From my point of view, not a lot of difference between 10K and 15K, ie., too high. That's my point of view, too. There's no difference between $8k and $22k for all practical (that is, relating to my bank balance and credit card limits!) purposes. BTW Steve, as a chemist you should know better than to use K instead of k for 1000. I mean I'm sure the 645D is going to be a pretty hot item, but still... ;-) -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: D645 musings
Mark Roberts wrote; DagT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: På 17. mar. 2005 kl. 18.45 skrev Mark Roberts: Jostein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think the D645 is going to be a camera below USD 10.000. Maybe even above USD 15.000. My guess is between USD 15,000 and 20,000. They're going to try to undercut the Mamiya, but probably won't be able to do so by very much. Not if this translation is correct: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036message=12694071 They're dreaming. Not necessarily. It depends on how much Kodak charges for the imaging array and how much processing horsepower Pentax elects to put behind it. BH sells Kodak full-frame 14Mpixel cameras for $3500. Given the fact that Pentax can leverage existing 645 lens mount, mirror box, and metering designs from the 645nii, I think that they should be able to come in well under $10,000 if Kodak gives them a good deal on the imaging array. Seems to me that their medium format marketing strategy has consistently been to produce good stuff and price their products well below the high end (Hasselblad, Rollei, etc.) of the market. --Mark
Re: D645 musings
On 17 Mar 2005 at 19:22, DagT wrote: På 17. mar. 2005 kl. 18.45 skrev Mark Roberts: Jostein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think the D645 is going to be a camera below USD 10.000. Maybe even above USD 15.000. My guess is between USD 15,000 and 20,000. They're going to try to undercut the Mamiya, but probably won't be able to do so by very much. Not if this translation is correct: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036message=12694071 If they make it out at that price then all the other comparable cameras will also have come down in price, Pentax don't have some kind of magic price wand. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: D645 musings
On 17 Mar 2005 at 17:37, DagT wrote: Battery capacity is an issue, as the CCD´s are more power consuming than CMOS, but I´m not sure if the FF Kodak cameras are that much worse than the Canons. Another thing is that CCD´s are slower than CMOS, but on the other hand they at least in theory have better dynamics, so you with a good CCD sensor you trade speed for colour and contrast quality. I think that is the right choice for a digital MF. These points are both generalizations that really don't apply to current generation sensors. I´f I should choose a new system I might choose the 645D because I´m not very interested in speed, but in file quality, and after what I´ve seen of vignetting problems in the 1Ds I´d prefer a system with telecentric wide angles specialized for the sensors rather than a system that pushes the technology to allow you to use old lenses. The problem is unlike the relatively new Mamiya 645AF system the 645 lenses are all pretty old designs so I assume many would need to be replaced for optimum compatibility just like what has occurred in the Pentax 35mm lens line. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: D645 musings
Pentax has been able to compete in price very effectively in the past. I'm guessing they'll do it again. On Mar 17, 2005, at 6:05 PM, Rob Studdert wrote: On 17 Mar 2005 at 19:22, DagT wrote: På 17. mar. 2005 kl. 18.45 skrev Mark Roberts: Jostein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think the D645 is going to be a camera below USD 10.000. Maybe even above USD 15.000. My guess is between USD 15,000 and 20,000. They're going to try to undercut the Mamiya, but probably won't be able to do so by very much. Not if this translation is correct: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036message=12694071 If they make it out at that price then all the other comparable cameras will also have come down in price, Pentax don't have some kind of magic price wand. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: D645 musings
Paul Stenquist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pentax has been able to compete in price very effectively in the past. I'm guessing they'll do it again. Yeah, but they only need to price the camera at $21,999,99 to do it in this market. ;-) -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: D645 musings
On 17 Mar 2005 at 17:40, Paul Stenquist wrote: Pentax has been able to compete in price very effectively in the past. I'm guessing they'll do it again. Digital cameras are very different to film cameras, the major cost component isn't produced in house and isn't necessarily exclusive to Pentax. This is the equalizer. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: D645 musings
1/3 of this size or less since they are RAW files. the Canon's produce about 1 megabyte per megapixel with their compressed RAW. Herb - Original Message - From: Jostein [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 10:36 AM Subject: D645 musings I'm quite curious about the file size. The H1D files can be up to 132 Mb in 16 bit, so a comparable file of 18 Mpx would probably be around a 100 Mb. Unless there's some compression involved. Hopefully Pentax will use compression.
Re: D645 musings
they are much worse than the Canons. Herb - Original Message - From: DagT [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:37 AM Subject: Re: D645 musings Battery capacity is an issue, as the CCD´s are more power consuming than CMOS, but I´m not sure if the FF Kodak cameras are that much worse than the Canons.
Re: D645 musings
why should Kodak charge Pentax any less profit margin? they need money even more than Pentax. people are talking about lowering their bond ratings to junk today. Herb... - Original Message - From: Mark Erickson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 4:25 PM Subject: Re: D645 musings Not necessarily. It depends on how much Kodak charges for the imaging array and how much processing horsepower Pentax elects to put behind it. BH sells Kodak full-frame 14Mpixel cameras for $3500. Given the fact that Pentax can leverage existing 645 lens mount, mirror box, and metering designs from the 645nii, I think that they should be able to come in well under $10,000 if Kodak gives them a good deal on the imaging array. Seems to me that their medium format marketing strategy has consistently been to produce good stuff and price their products well below the high end (Hasselblad, Rollei, etc.) of the market. --Mark
