Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Bruce Dayton]

Thursday, June 3, 2010, 1:15:18 AM, you wrote:

C> On 3/6/10, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed:

>>I'll be ok, I have a fire-retardant black polo-neck.

C> Any true mac fan has the apple logo branded on his chest. Across a nipple.

C> --


C> Cheers,
C>   Cotty


Wow!  Mac fans have nipples?  And I thought they just had dual
'cores'...

--
Bruce




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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[AlunFoto]

2010/6/3 Bruce Dayton :
> Wow!  Mac fans have nipples?  And I thought they just had dual
> 'cores'...

hehehe.

Apple + nipples = napples?


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Paul Sorenson]

"There is no argument in the world that carries the hatred that a 
religious belief does."


- Will Rogers

On 6/3/2010 7:18 AM, P. J. Alling wrote:

So you admit that Mac worship is a religion?

On 6/3/2010 12:35 AM, Joseph McAllister wrote:

On Jun 2, 2010, at 19:22 , P. J. Alling wrote:


This still cracks me up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWxC8ezE4Dk



Every religion (W)(A) is filled with crackpots who deride other's in 
hopes you will follow their ideas, usually to your detriment in the 
long run.


— John Locke

Joseph McAllister
pentax...@mac.com

“ The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.”
— Kevan Olesen







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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[steve harley]

On 2010-06-03 03:18 , AlunFoto wrote:

Or are there any Mac users here who can stand up and guarantee that a
Mac and a Time Machine will provide adequate backup of all user data
straight out of the box.


define "adequate backup" ... and just who would guarantee any backup 
without a high-priced monthly contract?


Time Machine is a good basic backup, but it's not industrial-grade or 
even in itself "business grade"; but that's not it's intent; it's not a 
belt & suspenders approach, it's a expandable elastic waistband 
approach; the real issue is that 95% of personal computer users don't do 
any real backups; Time Machine does a lot to help change that; it 
regularly saves people's butts


out of the box the user gets an incremental backup system that can 
restore the state of the entire machine (to another machine if 
necessary), but it is not very sophisticated in terms of technical 
management tools; and a user would have to think a bit to make their 
backups redundant or off-site; personally i use Time Machine as part of 
a multi-pronged approach; Time Machine is probably the simplest of any 
backup system i have used, even though i've tweaked it a bit



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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[steve harley]

On 2010-06-03 02:47 , AlunFoto wrote:

The comparison to car driving crossed my mind too. Computers are
becoming tools every bit as ubiquitous as cars. However, most
societies require drivers to prove their skills by obtaining a license
before they can legally drive out of that parking lot. Maybe that
should be introduced for computers as well.


don't know about elsewhere, but the U.S. monumentally botches driver 
education and testing; it considers a continuous massacre on the roads 
to be a necessity for preserving basic freedoms; little do the victims 
realize that they are martyrs for the cause




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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[drd1135]

I thought I'd check in and see how it was going. I mean, how bad could it be?

I might never be able to use my iPod "Touch" again. 
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Farr 
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 23:03:25 
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: OT - Abobe Woes

On 3 June 2010 22:47, P. J. Alling  wrote:

>>
>> OMG it is a religion! I thought the concept was a joke.
>>
>>
>
> Well now you know.
>

This guy already knew, and dressed appropriately:

http://poorlydressed.com/2010/01/19/fashion-fail-think-different-but-not-that-different/

or

http://tinyurl.com/y94va9e

regards, Anthony

   "Of what use is lens and light
to those who lack in mind and sight"
   (Anon)

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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Joseph McAllister]

On Jun 3, 2010, at 01:05 , Cotty wrote:


On 3/6/10, Rob Studdert, discombobulated, unleashed:


OMG it is a religion! I thought the concept was a joke.


All Windows users will burn in hell - no joke.




Love it !

On the other hand, don't you think they've been in Hell long enough?


Joseph McAllister
pentax...@mac.com

“If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn’t need to lug a camera.”
–Lewis Hine


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Joseph McAllister]

On Jun 3, 2010, at 02:18 , AlunFoto wrote:


Or are there any Mac users here who can stand up and guarantee that a
Mac and a Time Machine will provide adequate backup of all user data
straight out of the box. From reading that famous document, the
manual, I'm not convinced.



No one can guarantee anything, about anything, with the possible short  
term rising and setting of the sun and moon.


Time machine does a heck of a good job (right outta the box), but it's  
only one backup, and itself designed to back up your main drive. I use  
it to back up several drives as well as my internal (boot) drive. On  
two occasions I've had to do a restore from a Time Machine backup, and  
have had no problems whatsoever other than the time it takes to  
restore 275 GB of iTunes and 235 GB of  photographic images, each upon  
failure of a separate hard drive. IIRC, about 2 days per. In neither  
case did I have a failure of the O/S, permissions, privileges, or any  
of the hundreds of thousands of files, showing and hidden.


I will say that I am still amazed at the number of log errors and bad  
files that are documented every day within those logs as the system  
makes on the fly corrections and/or documents anything amiss in the  
running software. It apparently does not bother people who write the  
stuff, as 99.99% of it is passed off as not worthy of note — just  
housekeeping.




Joseph McAllister
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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[William Robb]

On 03/06/2010 9:28 PM, Joseph McAllister wrote:



On the other hand, don't you think they've been in Hell long enough?



John has probably been in hell far longer than he would care to be.
Seriously Joe, your beloved Macs don't work any better than a PC of 
equivalent component quality, and I suspect they work somewhat poorer 
than a PC that has been built to a high standard.


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Rob Studdert]

On 01/06/2010, John Francis  wrote:

> .. I do get pissed off when, every time I open a .PDF file, I end up
> with a little taskbar notifier telling me there is an update available.
> I've tried to turn it off a couple of different ways, but it comes back.

It's actually fairly well behaved in the latest incarnations from my
experience. I have it installed on quite a few systems that I can not
afford automatic update to occur and once auto-updates are disabled it
stays that way.

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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Joseph McAllister]

On Jun 3, 2010, at 03:08 , AlunFoto wrote:


2010/6/3 Cotty :

That fact that Apple (seems to) attracts users least likely to be
bothered with learning 'how' is far from a gripe - it is actually a  
big

selling point, and indeed was such when the Mac was first launched.


My comment was not about the quality of the _system_ but an
observation about a sample of its users. This is only a problem for
the system insofar as it does not live up to the user's expectations.
It is generally true that the less knowledge one has, the more
unrealistic one's expectations will be. Partly because expectations
are tempered by marketing lingo. So Apple's toting of their system as
"simple" has set unrealistic expectations with the least competent
users.


No one has used the term "simple" at Apple or in their marketing.  
Maybe "simplify", certainly easy to learn the tasks advertised and a  
part of the installed apps on a Mac.


It is my opinion, however, that anyone who thinks they can go out and  
buy their first computer, plug it in and start using it without  
reading the manual(s), attending a class, joining a support group, and  
more,  is woefully assuming they are superhuman, Windows or Mac. 15  
years ago I was still attending User Group meetings. Today I still go  
to the Apple Store for introductory sessions on any new hardware or  
software/ It's free, usually presented in a frustrating lowest common  
denominator manor, but I have always picked up some nugget I've  
overlooked in reading or hypothesizing about how it "should" work.


Suppose your first camera was ever was a K20D. You'd be screwed up for  
years trying to figure out how and why it worked on your own, without  
at least reading the entire manual twelve times over. An intelligent  
person would seek help right off the bat, reading, conversing,  
attending, practicing.



Of course it's a good selling point for Apple, and they're hyping it
for all it's worth. In my opinion for more than it's really worth. At
the end of the day there's no substitute for knowing what you're doing
with a computer, regardless of brand.


And not by osmosis, my friend, not by osmosis.

Joseph McAllister
pentax...@mac.com

“ Nature is considerably more creative and inventive than humankind.  
Without Nature there isn't any humankind. Without humankind, Nature is  
fine.”



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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Joseph McAllister]

On Jun 3, 2010, at 04:40 , AlunFoto wrote:


2010/6/3 paul stenquist :
I've restored from Time Machine on a number of occasions without  
difficulty. It seems to do an excellent job without my having to  
take any real action. It even backs up my encrypted files and  
enables restoration of them if they're lost or inadvertently altered.


Thanks Paul. :-)

two questions...
I know you're an advanced user... Have you verified, by manual means
or otherwise, that all the data you wish to back up are being
included?

The ultimate purpose of a backup is restore. Do you have any
experience with restoring data from a Time Machine (TM)?




Huh? Did he not just say that he has restored from Time Machine on a  
number of occasions?


I ask you. Have you ever used Time Machine? Do you know what it does?  
Do you know that you can enter it and see the status of a file an hour  
ago, a day ago, 4 days ago, a week ago, a month ago, 7 months ago (if  
it existed then), a year ago, years ago? That restoring is as  
intuitive as selecting the file, folder, or drive you need restored,  
and, well, clicking on restore, to restore it.


The most important thing to remember is, if you turn it off for some  
reason, be sure to turn it back on. Upgrading the O/S with TN running  
slows things down on all fronts. Rest assured though, the old O/S will  
be there if you do screw up, a window or two deep in the Time Machine  
screen.


Joseph McAllister
pentax...@mac.com

THE SENILITY PRAYER :
Grant me the senility to forget the people
I never liked anyway,
The good fortune to run into the ones I do, and
The eyesight to tell the difference.


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[John Sessoms]

From: "Daniel J. Matyola"

"Based on my experience so far, it's easier to get the Windoze
computer to do what *I* want it to do right out of the box "

That is not my experience.  Windoze loads a lot of crap that I have to
get rid of, and it makes it difficult to load non-MS programs and make
them the default programs.


Yeah. Windoze does load a lot of crap that has to be gotten rid of.

The difference is you CAN get rid of it. And once you get rid of it, it 
 STAYS gotten rid of.


Give you another one. On Windoze, I can do a print screen and then paste 
the screen-shot into paint or Photoshop, crop to the part I want, save 
it as a jpeg and insert that jpeg into a Word (or Open Office Writer 
document as an illustration.


None of the Mac gurus at school could figure out how to take a screen shot.

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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Joseph McAllister]

On Jun 3, 2010, at 04:56 , AlunFoto wrote:


Oh, and Joe McAllister has tried to win some branch of argument by
message precision bombing, I think.




Thank you for acknowledging my presence, Jostein!

Did I hit anything?


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— Anon

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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Joseph McAllister]

On Jun 3, 2010, at 05:18 , P. J. Alling wrote:


So you admit that Mac worship is a religion?



Not in the ecumenical sense, but yes. More of a fervor, I think. Like  
sports! Yankees and Red Sox. Manchester vs… vs… whoever they are  
versus in your neck of the planet.


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Joseph McAllister]

On Jun 3, 2010, at 21:36 , John Sessoms wrote:


From: "Daniel J. Matyola"

"Based on my experience so far, it's easier to get the Windoze
computer to do what *I* want it to do right out of the box "
That is not my experience.  Windoze loads a lot of crap that I have  
to
get rid of, and it makes it difficult to load non-MS programs and  
make

them the default programs.


Yeah. Windoze does load a lot of crap that has to be gotten rid of.

The difference is you CAN get rid of it. And once you get rid of it,  
it  STAYS gotten rid of.


Under what circumstances could you not do the same thing with a  
Macintosh?


Give you another one. On Windoze, I can do a print screen and then  
paste the screen-shot into paint or Photoshop, crop to the part I  
want, save it as a jpeg and insert that jpeg into a Word (or Open  
Office Writer document as an illustration.


None of the Mac gurus at school could figure out how to take a  
screen shot.


You can do a screen shot, a window shot, or a selected area shot of  
any proportion or size with a Mac, either through keyboard shortcuts,  
or using the "included with the O/S" little program called "Grab".   
Can't show you here, because this list has never gotten past the DOS  
6.2.2 era.  :-)


Joseph McAllister
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The Big Bang was silent, and probably invisible.
— from the Pentaxian's thoughts on particle physics, so far.


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Rob Studdert]

On 04/06/2010, Joseph McAllister  wrote:

> Suppose your first camera was ever was a K20D. You'd be screwed up for years
> trying to figure out how and why it worked on your own, without at least
> reading the entire manual twelve times over. An intelligent person would
> seek help right off the bat, reading, conversing, attending, practicing.

You obviously don't frequent DPR, this is a common occurrence, there
are regular my Canon P&S makes prettier pictures than the K7 that I
just bought, maybe it's broken. ;-)

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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[steve harley]

On 2010-06-03 22:36 , John Sessoms wrote:

None of the Mac gurus at school could figure out how to take a screen shot.


those aren't gurus; you can tell them control-command-shift-3, or 
control-command-shift-4 to crop while taking; screenshot goes directly 
to clipboard; if you want a file, don't use the control key and the file 
will be on the Desktop, or open Preview and press command-n to create a 
document with the screenshot on the clipboard, crop, save as -- all are 
there




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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[John Sessoms]

From: Joseph McAllister

On Jun 3, 2010, at 21:36 , John Sessoms wrote:


> From: "Daniel J. Matyola"

>> "Based on my experience so far, it's easier to get the Windoze
>> computer to do what *I* want it to do right out of the box "
>> That is not my experience.  Windoze loads a lot of crap that I have  
>> to
>> get rid of, and it makes it difficult to load non-MS programs and  
>> make

>> them the default programs.

>
> Yeah. Windoze does load a lot of crap that has to be gotten rid of.
>
> The difference is you CAN get rid of it. And once you get rid of it,  
> it  STAYS gotten rid of.


Under what circumstances could you not do the same thing with a  
Macintosh?




See my earlier rant regarding the Le Cie drive configured for 
transferring files between my Windoze box and the school's Macs. I'm not 
allowed to store files on the school's computers (for one thing I don't 
always get to use the same one ...). The Le Cie drive is my main storage 
space, but I don't have a Mac at home.


When I need to upload my PEF files to the Le Cie drive I have to use my 
Windoze box. Then when I get to school I can move the files into the Mac 
volume.


I do have a server share, but it's not large. Certainly not large enough 
to keep working files. It's intended for turn in.


Every time I plug the Le Cie drive in I get a pop-up asking me if I want 
to change the drive so that it will be Mac only.


I don't. If I wanted the drive to be Mac only I would have configured it 
to be Mac only to begin with.


However the software doesn't give me the choice of NO. It only gives me 
the choice to change the configuration so as to make the drive useless 
or to cancel.


If this were Windoze software, there would be some way to turn the 
software off.



> Give you another one. On Windoze, I can do a print screen and then  
> paste the screen-shot into paint or Photoshop, crop to the part I  
> want, save it as a jpeg and insert that jpeg into a Word (or Open  
> Office Writer document as an illustration.

>
> None of the Mac gurus at school could figure out how to take a  
> screen shot.


You can do a screen shot, a window shot, or a selected area shot of  
any proportion or size with a Mac, either through keyboard shortcuts,  
or using the "included with the O/S" little program called "Grab".   
Can't show you here, because this list has never gotten past the DOS  
6.2.2 era.   :-) 


Perhaps you can, but as I said, none of the Mac gurus at school could 
figure out how to do it.


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[AlunFoto]

2010/6/4 Joseph McAllister :
>
> And not by osmosis, my friend, not by osmosis.

:-)

Certainly not. Especially if you consider what actually happens in
osmosis; which is the passage of very small molecules across a passive
membrane. In practice, only water molecules are small enough. Which
means that osmosis is a dilution process. Not what you'd want to
happen to your knowledge... :-)

Jostein


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Cotty]

On 4/6/10, John Sessoms, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Give you another one. On Windoze, I can do a print screen and then paste
>the screen-shot into paint or Photoshop, crop to the part I want, save
>it as a jpeg and insert that jpeg into a Word (or Open Office Writer
>document as an illustration.
>
>None of the Mac gurus at school could figure out how to take a screen shot.

They are not Mac gurus.

I do the above all the time, it is very basic.



I have to save receipts for parking etc - I snap the receipt with my
iPhone, email it to myself, retrieve on the Mac, and drag and drop into
a Word document. Didn't even copy and paste so saved a step on your
method chum.

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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[AlunFoto]

2010/6/4 Joseph McAllister :
>
> Thank you for acknowledging my presence, Jostein!
>
> Did I hit anything?

A 100% hit rate, I think. All messages threaded properly even in gmail. :-)


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[David Mann]

On Jun 3, 2010, at 9:38 PM, Cotty wrote:

> Strange as it may seem, there are plenty of people in the world who
> would like to use a computer for various tasks - say, accessing the
> internet, Skyping distant relatives, writing a letter to the bank - but
> who are not the least bit interested in understanding how it works, how
> to manage it better, how to improve it, how to accomplish other tasks
> with it. In my opinion, the Mac can appeal to this type of person *as
> well as* the complete opposite.

You're absolutely right.  Due to its Unix underpinnings the Mac platform has 
become quite popular among eggheads.

I used to play about with computers for their own sake.  I'd build up a 
frankenbox from spare bits then spend days getting Linux to work on it.  I've 
since managed to repress the memories of X11 modelines.  Once it was all 
working I'd be at a loss for what to actually do with it so I'd make some 
changes and start the cycle again.

Now that I'm older and busier I see computers purely as a tool.  I use Windows 
and Linux a lot at work.  But for home I wanted something that could run 
Photoshop and Dreamweaver.  At the time (about 2003/4) I liked the look of the 
technologies in Mac OS X - Unix underneath with really useful stuff like 
ColorSync and a GPU-accelerated desktop (giving us Exposé) sitting on top.

Hardware-wise I never considered the G5 PowerMac I bought to be particularly 
pretty, even though it is astonishingly well made.  But that never mattered as 
it sat under the desk.  I now have a Macbook Pro so I can sit in the heated 
living room during winter evenings.

The Mac platform can appeal to people at all levels.  If it isn't your cup of 
tea, go have a coffee instead.  You'll still get a caffeine hit, it just tastes 
different.

Now it must be about time we started a Linux distribution flamewar.  Debian FTW!

Cheers,
Dave


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Joseph McAllister]

On Jun 4, 2010, at 00:03 , AlunFoto wrote:


2010/6/4 Joseph McAllister :


And not by osmosis, my friend, not by osmosis.


:-)

Certainly not. Especially if you consider what actually happens in
osmosis; which is the passage of very small molecules across a passive
membrane. In practice, only water molecules are small enough. Which
means that osmosis is a dilution process. Not what you'd want to
happen to your knowledge... :-)

Jostein


Among the great unwashed and under-educated that I grew up with,  
osmosis was the magical passage of any knowledge into the teen-age  
human brain.


If you wish to flaunt your dictionary acumen by practically quoting it  
verbatim on me, save it. I looked it up before I wrote it, and decided  
it was too narrow a definition. I stand by mine in defiance!


Joseph McAllister
Pentaxian

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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[mike wilson]

On 4 June 2010 08:11, David Mann  wrote:
>  If it isn't your cup of tea, go have a coffee instead.  You'll still get a 
> caffeine hit, it just tastes different.

At last!  Something to Mark!

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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[AlunFoto]

2010/6/4 Joseph McAllister :
> If you wish to flaunt your dictionary acumen by practically quoting it
> verbatim on me, save it. I looked it up before I wrote it, and decided it
> was too narrow a definition. I stand by mine in defiance!

Sorry Joe. Used to teach aquaculture and physiology in technical
college. Please accept that I didn't have to look it up before writing
it, any more than I suspect you of looking up any of the mac stuff you
flaunt. :-)

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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[AlunFoto]

2010/6/4 Joseph McAllister :
> On Jun 3, 2010, at 04:40 , AlunFoto wrote:
>
>> 2010/6/3 paul stenquist :
>>>
>>> I've restored from Time Machine on a number of occasions without
>>> difficulty. It seems to do an excellent job without my having to take any
>>> real action. It even backs up my encrypted files and enables restoration of
>>> them if they're lost or inadvertently altered.
>>
>> Thanks Paul. :-)
>>
>> two questions...
>> I know you're an advanced user... Have you verified, by manual means
>> or otherwise, that all the data you wish to back up are being
>> included?
>>
>> The ultimate purpose of a backup is restore. Do you have any
>> experience with restoring data from a Time Machine (TM)?
>
>
>
> Huh? Did he not just say that he has restored from Time Machine on a number
> of occasions?

Yep, I was a little dense there. Sorry, Joe. And sorry, Paul.

> I ask you. Have you ever used Time Machine? Do you know what it does?

Since I don't own a Mac, why would I have wasted money on a Time Machine? :-)
But truth be told, I investigated the possiblilty of using a TM to
back up my windows computers. Gave up on that and instead bought a
piece of software that was more transparent on the details of what it
was actually doing, and some generic USB disks. Software's called
Acronis True Image and serves me very well. Can mail details if
anyone's interested. Other than that, I only have experience with
enterprise scale backup software, in the shape of Symantec's
BackupExec and EMC2's deduplication system DataDomain, but yeah, I
think I know what the TM does. In fact, I believe I have a better
understanding of what the TM does than how user data are organised on
a Mac. My superficial impression is that this is organised in much the
same way as for Windows, but suspect there may be some caveats.

Anyway, I know there are lots of Mac aficionados on this list like
yourself, Steve Harley, Cotty and David Mann, but the more you're
demonstrating their knowledge, the more likely it becomes that one
actually _has_ to invest just as much into system knowledge with Macs
as you have to with Windows, in order to use the system optimally.

So instead, imagine I was a total newbie knowing nothing about the Mac
except what the sales rep had toted me full of at the Mac shop. I set
up LightRoom to deal with my photos because someone told me that's a
must-have. LR tells me to back up my catalog sometimes, so I do.
Someone tells me I should have a backup outside the Mac too, so I buy
a TM and plug it in. But I can't be bothered beyond that, because
everyone tells me it will save my butt if the Mac gets fried or
stolen, as long as I don't turn the power off on the TM.

Then one day shit happens, and the Mac is somehow beyond repair and/or
retrieval. As a newbie I really don't know how to cope, so let's say I
take my TM to the computer shop, and tell them I'll buy a new Mac from
them on the condition that they help me restore my data.

In this scenario, I must totally rely on the system. Would I retrieve
everything? My images no matter where they were stored on the Mac's
drive, they are probably all over the place since I'm a newbie. My LR
catalog, my emails and contacts, my documents and whatever stuff I
have downloaded for keeping.

Oh, and of course I will most likely run into a problem with Adobe's
bitchy DRM on LR, but that's beside the point just now, right? We're
pretty much in agreement that Adobe would be well off doing something
about that. Let's just assume the shop can fix that one for me.

What say you?

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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Bob W]

It is my opinion, however, that anyone who thinks they can go out and  buy 
their first computer, plug it in and start using it without  reading the 
manual(s), attending a class, joining a support group, and  more,  is 
woefully assuming they are superhuman, Windows or Mac.


or they might not have a computer at home. They might be coming back to work 
after time out for child-rearing, and be confronted with a computer for the 
first time ever, or the first time since the DOS days, and be expected to 
work it straight away.


A few weeks ago I had to travel to one of our other offices to do some 
deskside support for the first time in 25 years, and the first time on 
Windows rather than green-screen mainframes. The office is full of 
middle-aged women working part-time to earn pin money who just want to use 
the computer to do exactly what they've been trained to do, which they've 
frequently misunderstood and dutifully written into their notebooks. As soon 
as anything slightly different happens they are all at sea, and too scared 
of the computer to try anything to help themselves.


There are more people out there than you might realise who haven't a clue, 
and don't care. And why should they? The computers should work more like the 
TV and the toaster, and so should the systems that we IT people make them 
use.


B 



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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[AlunFoto]

2010/6/3 steve harley :
> don't know about elsewhere, but the U.S. monumentally botches driver
> education and testing; it considers a continuous massacre on the roads to be
> a necessity for preserving basic freedoms; little do the victims realize
> that they are martyrs for the cause

Sorry to hear that. I will not speculate in whether this enforces or
breaks the analogy... :-)

Jostein

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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Bob W]

Oh, and of course I will most likely run into a problem with Adobe's
bitchy DRM on LR, but that's beside the point just now, right? We're
pretty much in agreement that Adobe would be well off doing something
about that. Let's just assume the shop can fix that one for me.

What say you?


I don't think you'd have much trouble with Adobe on LR. I originally bought 
v1 for my 32-bit Windows XP and have just installed LR it on the new 64-bit 
W7 box from the same installation media - now v2 - followed by all the 
upgrades online. The original media also contain the Mac versions, so I 
guess it would work just as easily.


B 



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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[AlunFoto]

2010/6/4 Bob W :
> There are more people out there than you might realise who haven't a clue,
> and don't care. And why should they? The computers should work more like the
> TV and the toaster, and so should the systems that we IT people make them
> use.

And marketing try to tote that, both Microsoft and Apple. Neither can
deliver as promised. :-(


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[AlunFoto]

2010/6/4 Bob W :
>
> I don't think you'd have much trouble with Adobe on LR. I originally bought
> v1 for my 32-bit Windows XP and have just installed LR it on the new 64-bit
> W7 box from the same installation media - now v2 - followed by all the
> upgrades online. The original media also contain the Mac versions, so I
> guess it would work just as easily.

Good point. LR gives you a "grace install". I should know since I have
installed LR on both desktop and laptop with same serial. However,
IIRC, you're still advised to uninstall the software from your
hardware if migrating to a new box.

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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Bob W]

I don't think you'd have much trouble with Adobe on LR. I originally 
bought
v1 for my 32-bit Windows XP and have just installed LR it on the new 
64-bit

W7 box from the same installation media - now v2 - followed by all the
upgrades online. The original media also contain the Mac versions, so I
guess it would work just as easily.


Good point. LR gives you a "grace install". I should know since I have
installed LR on both desktop and laptop with same serial. However,
IIRC, you're still advised to uninstall the software from your
hardware if migrating to a new box.


that's probably required under the terms of the licence anyway. When I was 
using the XP box I had to reinstall LR several times following reinstalls of 
XP when things started going wrong with the box. There was never any problem 
with reinstalling LR.


On the other hand, MS Office... I have a legal copy of MS Office 
Professional, bought for peppercorns under the Home Use programme, and when 
I tried last week to reinstall it on this machine it told me I had used up 
all my activations and I now have to phone Microsoft to get them to activate 
it. I can understand them wanted to prevent piracy and illegal copying, but 
I'm pissed off about this. I've had to uninstall it and am now waiting until 
I have time to go through the whole re-install and get them on the phone at 
the same time.


I've never had a book refuse to open because I've read it too many times.

Bob 



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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[paul stenquist]

On Jun 4, 2010, at 2:23 AM, John Sessoms wrote:
>>> 
>> You can do a screen shot, a window shot, or a selected area shot of  any 
>> proportion or size with a Mac, either through keyboard shortcuts,  or using 
>> the "included with the O/S" little program called "Grab".   Can't show you 
>> here, because this list has never gotten past the DOS  6.2.2 era.   :-) 
> 
> Perhaps you can, but as I said, none of the Mac gurus at school could figure 
> out how to do it.

And this is a school? Pity the students.
Paul


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[paul stenquist]

On Jun 4, 2010, at 3:48 AM, AlunFoto wrote:
> 
> Then one day shit happens, and the Mac is somehow beyond repair and/or
> retrieval. As a newbie I really don't know how to cope, so let's say I
> take my TM to the computer shop, and tell them I'll buy a new Mac from
> them on the condition that they help me restore my data.
> 
> In this scenario, I must totally rely on the system. Would I retrieve
> everything? My images no matter where they were stored on the Mac's
> drive, they are probably all over the place since I'm a newbie. My LR
> catalog, my emails and contacts, my documents and whatever stuff I
> have downloaded for keeping.
> 
> Oh, and of course I will most likely run into a problem with Adobe's
> bitchy DRM on LR, but that's beside the point just now, right? We're
> pretty much in agreement that Adobe would be well off doing something
> about that. Let's just assume the shop can fix that one for me.
> 
> What say you?
> 

If everything was on your startup drive, Time Machine would, in my experience, 
restore it flawlessly. When I restored my startup drive, TM had no problem with 
Adobe CS Design Suite. It also had no problems restoring the encrypted files 
that I keep on the startup drive. In fact, it had no problems whatsoever.
Paul
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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[steve harley]

On 2010-06-04 01:48 , AlunFoto wrote:

Since I don't own a Mac, why would I have wasted money on a Time Machine? :-)
But truth be told, I investigated the possiblilty of using a TM to
back up my windows computers.


really? Time Machine is software built into Mac OS X, you can't buy it 
separately, and you can't use it on Windows (you could rsync from 
Windows to a Mac server and let Time Machine from take it from there -- 
a workable low-tech solution in a heterogeneous environment)


you seem have Time Machine confused with Time _Capsule_, which is a 
wireless/wired router plus NAS that Apple sells; on a Mac it integrates 
with Time Machine, but it doesn't automate backups for Windows, so would 
just be a somewhat spiffy router & raw NAS





but yeah, I
think I know what the TM does.


or what the Time _Capsule_ does?


Anyway, I know there are lots of Mac aficionados on this list like
yourself, Steve Harley, Cotty and David Mann, but the more you're
demonstrating their knowledge, the more likely it becomes that one
actually _has_ to invest just as much into system knowledge with Macs
as you have to with Windows, in order to use the system optimally.


define optimally?

i've invested a lot in learning Mac OS, but i'm a software developer; i 
don't seek to know everything, i seek to know principles; so it helps 
that from both a users and a developer's perspective the Mac OS X the 
architecture is very consistent; being able to use my Unix skills that 
stem from circa 1980 is also handy; but i can also let go of knowing 
details and trust certain aspects of the system to "just work", though 
they'll tend to behave in ways a more basic user would prefer; that's 
what i like about the iPhone, for example -- i can't tweak it, so i just 
let go and use it




So instead, imagine I was a total newbie [...]
Someone tells me I should have a backup outside the Mac too, so I buy
a TM and plug it in. [...]


actually, you can use any hard drive with the Time Machine software


Then one day shit happens, [...]

In this scenario, I must totally rely on the system. Would I retrieve
everything? [...]

>

Oh, and of course I will most likely run into a problem with Adobe's
bitchy DRM on LR [...]

What say you?


yes, that's how Time Machine works (apart from the confusion with Time 
Capsule); in a total restoration scenario (which i haven't done 
personally) you can restore your whole setup to any computer and 
everything works; there are gotchas with activation schemes which are 
keyed to the physical hard drive; i'm not sure if Adobe still does that, 
but in those cases software may need reactivation, or if the activation 
scheme is particularly stupid, reinstallation


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[steve harley]

On 2010-06-04 00:23 , John Sessoms wrote:

However the software doesn't give me the choice of NO. It only gives me
the choice to change the configuration so as to make the drive useless
or to cancel.

If this were Windoze software, there would be some way to turn the
software off.


i think this is solvable, but vague descriptions are not going to cut 
it; obviously your gurus don't even know how to google so let me give 
you what i've got: first of all i plug multi-format drives into Macs all 
the time and get no such pop-up -- without the exact message text, it 
sounds to me like the message that occurs for unformated volumes or 
volumes whose format Mac OS X can't recognize; the same message can 
occur on drives with electrical/physical problems or with volume corruption


so why are you getting the message? it might have to do with how La Cie 
sets up the drive -- La Cie is not the same fantastic vendor it was ten 
or fifteen years ago, they make futzy drives and i avoid them; is it 
possible there's an additional partition in an odd format, perhaps one 
supplied by LaCie? to find out open Disk Utility, click on the drive 
name in the left column, and click on the Partition tab -- what do you 
see? also what is the Partition Map Scheme reported toward the bottom of 
that display? are you on Mac OS X 10.5 or 10.6?


btw, are you properly dismounting the drive before removing it?

given the right details i can do some googling for your gurus

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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Joseph McAllister]

On Jun 4, 2010, at 10:57 , steve harley wrote:


On 2010-06-04 01:48 , AlunFoto wrote:
Since I don't own a Mac, why would I have wasted money on a Time  
Machine? :-)

But truth be told, I investigated the possiblilty of using a TM to
back up my windows computers.


you seem have Time Machine confused with Time _Capsule_, which is a  
wireless/wired router plus NAS that Apple sells; on a Mac it  
integrates with Time Machine, but it doesn't automate backups for  
Windows, so would just be a somewhat spiffy router & raw NAS






Anyway, I know there are lots of Mac aficionados on this list like
yourself, Steve Harley, Cotty and David Mann, but the more you're


You left out Paul Sorenson, Paul Stenquist, Adam Mass, John Francis,  
to name a few. I personally no longer consider myself anywhere near a  
Mac Guru, if I truly ever was. I'm damn good at figuring shit out in  
hardware or software, if I'm willing to take the time. Problem is,  
with my mind, if the same thing comes up a month later, I won't  
remember how I figured it out. That's why Apple has several hundred of  
my dollars for iMac (and any software that came with), MacBook  
(ditto), and Aperture which allows me to have someone immersed in the  
genre give me help in navigating the intricacies of the operation of  
the ever morphing modern computer.



demonstrating their knowledge, the more likely it becomes that one
actually _has_ to invest just as much into system knowledge with Macs
as you have to with Windows, in order to use the system optimally.


define optimally?

i've invested a lot in learning Mac OS, but i'm a software  
developer; i don't seek to know everything, i seek to know  
principles; so it helps that from both a users and a developer's  
perspective the Mac OS X the architecture is very consistent; being  
able to use my Unix skills that stem from circa 1980 is also handy;  
but i can also let go of knowing details and trust certain aspects  
of the system to "just work", though they'll tend to behave in ways  
a more basic user would prefer; that's what i like about the iPhone,  
for example -- i can't tweak it, so i just let go and use it



actually, you can use any hard drive with the Time Machine software


Then one day shit happens, [...]

In this scenario, I must totally rely on the system. Would I retrieve
everything? [...]

>

Oh, and of course I will most likely run into a problem with Adobe's
bitchy DRM on LR [...]

What say you?


yes, that's how Time Machine works (apart from the confusion with  
Time Capsule); in a total restoration scenario (which i haven't done  
personally) you can restore your whole setup to any computer and  
everything works; there are gotchas with activation schemes which  
are keyed to the physical hard drive; i'm not sure if Adobe still  
does that, but in those cases software may need reactivation, or if  
the activation scheme is particularly stupid, reinstallation



Thank you Steve.

You got up earlier than I this morning, or at least got online first.  
And you are a current developer compared to my 30 year old legacy. You  
covered almost all the points I had flagged from the previous posts.


Steve is the type of person I wish I could talk to when I call Apple  
support and would like an error log looked at to tell me what and why,  
instead of the "restart your Mac holding down the shift key" or "log  
out and create another user account" that the 1st tier folks put you  
through, because they think your question will be answered by what  
comes up on their search of the knowledge database. I always look  
there first, and wouldn't be calling if a search came up with the  
answer. One refreshing change I've noticed in the past two months is  
that the 2nd tier troubleshooters give you their email address, their  
phone number, plus the hours and days they work. I'm sure (snicker)  
that Microsoft does the same for their customers. Oh, and Apple  
support folks are in several places in the eastern United States, plus  
Texas.


If it doesn’t excite you,
This thing that you see,
Why in the world,
Would it excite me?
—Jay Maisel

Joseph McAllister
pentax...@mac.com





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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Joseph McAllister]

On Jun 4, 2010, at 00:37 , AlunFoto wrote:


2010/6/4 Joseph McAllister :
If you wish to flaunt your dictionary acumen by practically quoting  
it
verbatim on me, save it. I looked it up before I wrote it, and  
decided it

was too narrow a definition. I stand by mine in defiance!


Sorry Joe. Used to teach aquaculture and physiology in technical
college. Please accept that I didn't have to look it up before writing
it, any more than I suspect you of looking up any of the mac stuff you
flaunt. :-)


I bow to your direct knowledge, and yet, still stand my my departed  
Father's oft spoken admonition; "Go to your room and study, Joseph.  
You cannot learn math (or whatever) by osmosis!"


If it doesn’t excite you,
This thing that you see,
Why in the world,
Would it excite me?
—Jay Maisel

Joseph McAllister
pentax...@mac.com





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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Joseph McAllister]

On Jun 4, 2010, at 11:10 , steve harley wrote:


On 2010-06-04 00:23 , John Sessoms wrote:
However the software doesn't give me the choice of NO. It only  
gives me
the choice to change the configuration so as to make the drive  
useless

or to cancel.

If this were Windoze software, there would be some way to turn the
software off.


i think this is solvable, but vague descriptions are not going to  
cut it; obviously your gurus don't even know how to google so let me  
give you what i've got: first of all i plug multi-format drives into  
Macs all the time and get no such pop-up





given the right details i can do some googling for your gurus


I refrained from commenting, because I could not for the life on me  
figure out why he would get such a message other than what you've  
mentioned about some irregularity in the formatting of a dual use  
drive. Oh, and a La Cie drive as well. Any drive I use is reformatted  
with the current version of Disk Utility before I use it. I don't use  
the "One Button Backup" or other little things that come with many  
drives, so do not need any software that they include on the drive.


Joseph McAllister
pentax...@mac.com

“ It is still true, as was first said many years ago, that people are  
the only sophisticated computing devices that can be made at low cost  
by unskilled workers!”

— Martin G. Wolf, PhD


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Brian Walters]

I've got nothing useful to add here but, as this thread seems to be
running out of puff, I just thought I'd try to get it to stagger on a
bit longer...



Cheers

Brian

++
Brian Walters
Western Sydney Australia
http://members.westnet.com.au/brianwal/SL/



On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 14:14 -0700, "Joseph McAllister" 
wrote:
> 
> On Jun 4, 2010, at 11:10 , steve harley wrote:
> 
> > On 2010-06-04 00:23 , John Sessoms wrote:
> >> However the software doesn't give me the choice of NO. It only  
> >> gives me
> >> the choice to change the configuration so as to make the drive  
> >> useless
> >> or to cancel.
> >>
> >> If this were Windoze software, there would be some way to turn the
> >> software off.
> >
> > i think this is solvable, but vague descriptions are not going to  
> > cut it; obviously your gurus don't even know how to google so let me  
> > give you what i've got: first of all i plug multi-format drives into  
> > Macs all the time and get no such pop-up
> 
> 
> 
> > given the right details i can do some googling for your gurus
> 
> I refrained from commenting, because I could not for the life on me  
> figure out why he would get such a message other than what you've  
> mentioned about some irregularity in the formatting of a dual use  
> drive. Oh, and a La Cie drive as well. Any drive I use is reformatted  
> with the current version of Disk Utility before I use it. I don't use  
> the "One Button Backup" or other little things that come with many  
> drives, so do not need any software that they include on the drive.
> 
> Joseph McAllister
> pentax...@mac.com
> 
> “ It is still true, as was first said many years ago, that people are  
> the only sophisticated computing devices that can be made at low cost  
> by unskilled workers!”
> — Martin G. Wolf, PhD
> 
> 
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-- 


-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and
  love email again


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[John Sessoms]

This is probably going to be my last on Mac vs PC for now. I'm getting 
busy at school and barely have time to follow the list.


There are about 70 students in my class, broken into three sections.

Among the 70, there are maybe 10 who are over the age of 21. All the 
rest are right out of high school.


The network is also set up to be Mac only, to indoctrinate the kids 
properly from the beginning. I don't know what their experience with 
computers in school prior to this has been, but I think it might have 
been rather apple-centric.


What I think is going on is the Mac network at school is screwed down 
really tight to keep the students from doing anything that might screw 
with it. You can't change any preferences, and no allowance is even made 
for saving those preferences as a script on your own drive.


Basically, it's just not set up to play nice with those who already know 
something about a different way of doing things, and no allowance is 
made for the diversity of those who use Windoze at home.


Not a matter of can't ... won't.




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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Cotty]

On 8/6/10, John Sessoms, discombobulated, unleashed:

>The network is also set up to be Mac only, to indoctrinate the kids
>properly from the beginning

John, you're getting the idea ;-)

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Cheers,
  Cotty


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Bruce Dayton]

Isn't that the 'Apple' way?  Tight control?

-- 
Bruce


Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 6:19:51 AM, you wrote:

JS> This is probably going to be my last on Mac vs PC for now. I'm getting
JS> busy at school and barely have time to follow the list.

JS> There are about 70 students in my class, broken into three sections.

JS> Among the 70, there are maybe 10 who are over the age of 21. All the 
JS> rest are right out of high school.

JS> The network is also set up to be Mac only, to indoctrinate the kids 
JS> properly from the beginning. I don't know what their experience with 
JS> computers in school prior to this has been, but I think it might have 
JS> been rather apple-centric.

JS> What I think is going on is the Mac network at school is screwed down 
JS> really tight to keep the students from doing anything that might screw
JS> with it. You can't change any preferences, and no allowance is even made
JS> for saving those preferences as a script on your own drive.

JS> Basically, it's just not set up to play nice with those who already know
JS> something about a different way of doing things, and no allowance is 
JS> made for the diversity of those who use Windoze at home.

JS> Not a matter of can't ... won't.







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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Cotty]

On 8/6/10, Bruce Dayton, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Isn't that the 'Apple' way?  Tight control?

Ridiculous!

--


Cheers,
  Cotty


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_



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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Bruce Dayton]

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil...

-- 
Bruce


Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 9:35:53 AM, you wrote:

C> On 8/6/10, Bruce Dayton, discombobulated, unleashed:

>>Isn't that the 'Apple' way?  Tight control?

C> Ridiculous!

C> --


C> Cheers,
C>   Cotty


C> ___/\__
C> ||   (O)  | People, Places, Pastiche
C> --  http://www.cottysnaps.com
C> _






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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Cotty]

On 8/6/10, Bruce Dayton, discombobulated, unleashed:

>See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil...

;-)



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Cheers,
  Cotty


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[steve harley]

On 2010-06-08 10:28 , Bruce Dayton wrote:

Isn't that the 'Apple' way?  Tight control?



it has nothing to do with Apple -- if the school were using Windows it 
seems clear they'd have a similar policy; i've seen the same kind of 
policy (for Windows and/or Mac) in various environments with shared 
computers



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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Bruce Dayton]

Seem to have touched a raw nerve.

-- 
Bruce


Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 10:29:04 AM, you wrote:

sh> On 2010-06-08 10:28 , Bruce Dayton wrote:
>> Isn't that the 'Apple' way?  Tight control?
>>

sh> it has nothing to do with Apple -- if the school were using Windows it
sh> seems clear they'd have a similar policy; i've seen the same kind of 
sh> policy (for Windows and/or Mac) in various environments with shared 
sh> computers





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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[steve harley]

On 2010-06-08 11:32 , Bruce Dayton wrote:

Seem to have touched a raw nerve.



eh? just wasn't a sensible comment

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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Bruce Dayton]

If you could see the forest through the trees, I think you would see
it as sensible.

-- 
Bruce


Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 10:47:23 AM, you wrote:

sh> On 2010-06-08 11:32 , Bruce Dayton wrote:
>> Seem to have touched a raw nerve.
>>

sh> eh? just wasn't a sensible comment




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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[steve harley]

On 2010-06-08 12:18 , Bruce Dayton wrote:

If you could see the forest through the trees, I think you would see
it as sensible.


i see a forest of attitude through trees of poorly-aimed snark

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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[Bruce Dayton]

I bow to the Apple god who must always be vindicated.  I'm done.

-- 
Bruce


Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 11:37:24 AM, you wrote:

sh> On 2010-06-08 12:18 , Bruce Dayton wrote:
>> If you could see the forest through the trees, I think you would see
>> it as sensible.

sh> i see a forest of attitude through trees of poorly-aimed snark




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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[William Robb]

--
From: "steve harley" 
Subject: Re: OT - Abobe Woes



On 2010-06-08 12:18 , Bruce Dayton wrote:

If you could see the forest through the trees, I think you would see
it as sensible.


i see a forest of attitude through trees of poorly-aimed snark



I see another batch of tiresome Mac users blowing smoke out their asses.
But that's just me. Pay me no mind, I know I don't.

William Robb 


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[P. J. Alling]

On 6/8/2010 12:28 PM, Bruce Dayton wrote:

Isn't that the 'Apple' way?  Tight control?

   

/Strict/ control, (ask Cotty).

--
{\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\deff0\deflang1033{\fonttbl{\f0\fnil\fcharset0 Courier 
New;}}
\viewkind4\uc1\pard\f0\fs20 I've just upgraded to Thunderbird 3.0 and the 
interface subtly weird.\par
}


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Re: OT - Abobe Woes

[mike wilson]

On 8 June 2010 18:29, steve harley  wrote:
> On 2010-06-08 10:28 , Bruce Dayton wrote:
>>
>> Isn't that the 'Apple' way?  Tight control?
>>
>
> it has nothing to do with Apple -- if the school were using Windows it seems
> clear they'd have a similar policy; i've seen the same kind of policy (for
> Windows and/or Mac) in various environments with shared computers

It's certainly the way my work environment is.  Even then the little
darlings find ways to circumvent the system.

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