Re: The Truth about Memory Cards (was: Re: Film for my digital camera)
And in the other direction you could argue that the expensive cards that professionals and enthusiasts buy will probably get a lot more use than the cheap cards bought by the p&s brigade. So you're back to square one! John On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:14:41 +0100, John Celio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Could it not be that you see more cheapo cards because far more cheap cards are sold than expensive cards? Unless you know the sales ratios, you can't form any conclusions at all from the number of cards coming through your workshop. You are correct, and I did mean to address that in my original post. Granted, the cheapass cards are bought in much higher quantities than the higher-end cards, but the shop I work at sees a wide range of customers, from grandparents who don't know diddly about digital watches, let alone cameras, to professional wedding photographers and photojournalists. We also sell a LOT of tier 1 cards (Lexar Professional primarily, but our Promaster-branded cards are tier 1 cards from Delkin, from what I've been told). Matter of fact, the majority of cards we sell are tier 1, which is why a lot of entry-level consumers tend to balk at their prices compared to what they can get at Costco. Relatively speaking, it is pretty rare when a photographer comes in with a bad pro card, and our Promaster cards generally only come back with problems when the user failed to format it before using it. So anyway, yeah, I wish I had numbers to back up what I wrote, but that's not really possible for me. Maybe I should start keeping notes on what sorts of cards I get. I just had a thought: would it be safe to assume that people who buy a cheapass card would be more likely to just throw it away when it becomes defective than people who buy more expensive cards? Assuming most people don't know about data recovery services, I would think consumers who buy a cheap card would be more inclined to just replace it simply because they didn't have a large investment in it. This is, of course, just conjecture. John Celio -- http://www.neovenator.com AIM: Neopifex "Hey, I'm an artist. I can do whatever I want and pretend I'm making a statement." -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 16/09/2005
RE: The Truth about Memory Cards (was: Re: Film for my digital camera)
> >>This sparks a memory from the early days of Apple's > Macintosh. SJ was [...] > > When I was service manager at a high end audio shop in [...] > Of course, it needed a *lot* more than that to become usable... > I've just finished reading this: http://www.granta.com/shop/product?usca_p=t&product_id=2299 Y'all might enjoy it. Derived from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/electronicbrains.shtml Bob
Re: The Truth about Memory Cards (was: Re: Film for my digital camera)
Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >On 19/9/05, Godfrey DiGiorgi, discombobulated, unleashed: > >>This sparks a memory from the early days of Apple's Macintosh. SJ was >>riding heard on the project like an expectant hen ... the guy laying >>out the logic board was having trouble with RFI and cross-talk. SJ >>heads over to his bench one day and pronounces, "Of course it has >>problems. It's not neat and tidy. Do it this way..." and draws a >>nice, neat, orthogonal layout. Such was the force of the man that the >>engineer built one to his drawing. Of course, it didn't work *at all* >>that way. >> >>In SJ's defense, he was a lot younger then... ;-) > >Nice story GDG. Ta. When I was service manager at a high end audio shop in Rochester, the owner commissioned a "store brand" of components from a local manufacturer (Belles Audio, if anyone remembers them). Their power amps were good but the pre amp they designed for us was a piece of shite. I was able to get a major improvement in signal-to-noise simply(?) by completely re-routing the ground path on the circuit board. Of course, it needed a *lot* more than that to become usable... -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: The Truth about Memory Cards (was: Re: Film for my digital camera)
On 19/9/05, Godfrey DiGiorgi, discombobulated, unleashed: >This sparks a memory from the early days of Apple's Macintosh. SJ was >riding heard on the project like an expectant hen ... the guy laying >out the logic board was having trouble with RFI and cross-talk. SJ >heads over to his bench one day and pronounces, "Of course it has >problems. It's not neat and tidy. Do it this way..." and draws a >nice, neat, orthogonal layout. Such was the force of the man that the >engineer built one to his drawing. Of course, it didn't work *at all* >that way. > >In SJ's defense, he was a lot younger then... ;-) Nice story GDG. Ta. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: The Truth about Memory Cards (was: Re: Film for my digital camera)
On Sep 19, 2005, at 1:26 PM, Glen wrote: ... They even nag one circuit board for having a "slightly crowded" layout, which by itself doesn't have any real effect on performance or reliability at all. ... This sparks a memory from the early days of Apple's Macintosh. SJ was riding heard on the project like an expectant hen ... the guy laying out the logic board was having trouble with RFI and cross-talk. SJ heads over to his bench one day and pronounces, "Of course it has problems. It's not neat and tidy. Do it this way..." and draws a nice, neat, orthogonal layout. Such was the force of the man that the engineer built one to his drawing. Of course, it didn't work *at all* that way. In SJ's defense, he was a lot younger then... ;-) Godfrey
Re: The Truth about Memory Cards (was: Re: Film for my digital camera)
At 02:15 PM 9/19/2005, Frantisek wrote: Consider this: http://www.datarescue.com/laboratory/cfcompare/ picture comparison of insides. Frantisek Okay, I'm an electronics tech. I looked at that site, and it claims that with merely a "quick glance" that you can tell that the build quality of one of those two cards is "markedly inferior". From these images, I sure can't see that. I even took more than a "mere glance" at the images. Even in their closeup photos of what they call "welding", I can't see a "markedly inferior" level of quality. For the record, this isn't welding. This is soldering, and soft-soldering at that. I also want to mention that they have magnified what they considered a "bad weld" much more than what they call a "good weld". This makes fair comparisons by the website visitors practically impossible. I'm not saying that the card they call inferior isn't in some way inferior, but I am saying that I feel they are grossly exaggerating the differences. They even nag one circuit board for having a "slightly crowded" layout, which by itself doesn't have any real effect on performance or reliability at all. There might be a difference, but it isn't as obvious as they want you to think it is -- at least, not judging from these online images. take care, Glen
Re: The Truth about Memory Cards (was: Re: Film for my digital camera)
Could it not be that you see more cheapo cards because far more cheap cards are sold than expensive cards? Unless you know the sales ratios, you can't form any conclusions at all from the number of cards coming through your workshop. You are correct, and I did mean to address that in my original post. Granted, the cheapass cards are bought in much higher quantities than the higher-end cards, but the shop I work at sees a wide range of customers, from grandparents who don't know diddly about digital watches, let alone cameras, to professional wedding photographers and photojournalists. We also sell a LOT of tier 1 cards (Lexar Professional primarily, but our Promaster-branded cards are tier 1 cards from Delkin, from what I've been told). Matter of fact, the majority of cards we sell are tier 1, which is why a lot of entry-level consumers tend to balk at their prices compared to what they can get at Costco. Relatively speaking, it is pretty rare when a photographer comes in with a bad pro card, and our Promaster cards generally only come back with problems when the user failed to format it before using it. So anyway, yeah, I wish I had numbers to back up what I wrote, but that's not really possible for me. Maybe I should start keeping notes on what sorts of cards I get. I just had a thought: would it be safe to assume that people who buy a cheapass card would be more likely to just throw it away when it becomes defective than people who buy more expensive cards? Assuming most people don't know about data recovery services, I would think consumers who buy a cheap card would be more inclined to just replace it simply because they didn't have a large investment in it. This is, of course, just conjecture. John Celio -- http://www.neovenator.com AIM: Neopifex "Hey, I'm an artist. I can do whatever I want and pretend I'm making a statement."
Re: The Truth about Memory Cards (was: Re: Film for my digital camera)
Yep, you'll never know what's in a sealed package, especially one that's not meant to be opened. Shel Belinkoff wrote: Once again the consumer gets screwed. It seems we can't trust the brand names and the hype about quality ... Shel "Am I paranoid or perceptive?" [Original Message] From: Frantisek Consider this: http://www.datarescue.com/laboratory/cfcompare/ picture comparison of insides. -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout).
Re: The Truth about Memory Cards (was: Re: Film for my digital camera)
Once again the consumer gets screwed. It seems we can't trust the brand names and the hype about quality ... Shel "Am I paranoid or perceptive?" > [Original Message] > From: Frantisek > Consider this: > > http://www.datarescue.com/laboratory/cfcompare/ > > picture comparison of insides.
Re: The Truth about Memory Cards (was: Re: Film for my digital camera)
Consider this: http://www.datarescue.com/laboratory/cfcompare/ picture comparison of insides. Frantisek
Re: The Truth about Memory Cards (was: Re: Film for my digital camera)
Yup, I was thinking the same thing. rg John Forbes wrote: Could it not be that you see more cheapo cards because far more cheap cards are sold than expensive cards? Unless you know the sales ratios, you can't form any conclusions at all from the number of cards coming through your workshop. John On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 03:20:59 +0100, Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi John ... Thanks for posting this info. Shel [Original Message] From: John Celio > Are all SD cards more or less equal, given storage volume? Oh god no! Not even close. There are some very important things to know about memory cards before you go and buy one, but unfortunately these things can be hard to find out from the memory manufacturers. One of the things I do at my job is image recovery for customers whose memory cards have become unreadable for whatever reason. I get about six or seven image recovery requests per week, and I've noticed some trends: -- The majority of memory cards that come to me with problems are those cheapass SanDisk cards that are sold just about everywhere (especially at places like Costco and Wal*Mart). Note: this group does not include Ultra or Extreme cards. -- The next largest group of cards to come to me are "no name" memory cards. "No name" refers to cards from a brand no one (in my lab, anyway) has heard of or cards with no brand at all. Many of these cards come from online retailers who package them with a camera to sweeten the deal, or from the customer having to purchase more memory from a tourist trap while travelling. -- The smallest group consists of "professional" cards. In the last couple weeks, I've seen two SanDisk Ultra IIs, one SanDisk Extreme, and one Lexar Professional (which is the brand I use, and which I actually rarely see come to me with problems). What separates these groups? Memory manufacturers generally have three tiers of quality, and they affect the speed and reliability of the memory in each tier. Tier 3: This is the cheap stuff. Cheapass SanDisk cards fall in this category, as well as most other cheapass memory you find (this includes cheapass memory you can buy for your computer and whatnot). If you were to open a tier 3 memory card, you would see more than one piece of flash memory. If, for example, you bought a 512mb card and opened it up, you would most likely see four pieces of 128mb flash memory inside. These modules are cheaper to produce, and so the manufacturers produce them en masse and combine them into larger capacity cards. More memory modules means higher chances of getting defective memory, as well as slower transfer rates, but lower prices. Consumers buy this stuff because they think they're getting a good deal, but in fact they're playing roulette with their data. Tier 2: This stuff is usually produced from a couple memory modules, but not as many as Tier 3 cards. The modules have higher capacities (in some cases there is only one piece of memory in tier 2 cards) and are usually produced under tighter quality controls. These cards are faster than tier 3 cards, but not always as fast as Tier 1 (though they can be very fast). Tier 1: This is the high-end stuff. You generally get what you pay for with tier 1 cards. They are made from a single memory module, and are generally very fast (depending on the technology available at the time they were designed, of course). They are produced under the tightest quality controls, and are often tested at the factory before being shipped. Lexar Professional, SanDisk Extreme, and SanDisk Ultra cards fall under this category, but in my experience with so many bad cards, the Lexar Professional cards seem to be the most reliable (though admittedly not always as fast as the SanDisk cards) So, after learning all this, it has become my opinion that, when buying memory, one should spend the extra money and get professional-quality stuff. You really do get what you pay for. John Celio
Re: The Truth about Memory Cards (was: Re: Film for my digital camera)
On Sep 19, 2005, at 8:13, John Forbes wrote: Could it not be that you see more cheapo cards because far more cheap cards are sold than expensive cards? Unless you know the sales ratios, you can't form any conclusions at all from the number of cards coming through your workshop. The same thought had occurred to me... whichever card is most commonly sold is most likely to show up in your store - with little regard for the quality of said card. -Charles -- Charles Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org
Re: The Truth about Memory Cards (was: Re: Film for my digital camera)
Could it not be that you see more cheapo cards because far more cheap cards are sold than expensive cards? Unless you know the sales ratios, you can't form any conclusions at all from the number of cards coming through your workshop. John On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 03:20:59 +0100, Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi John ... Thanks for posting this info. Shel [Original Message] From: John Celio > Are all SD cards more or less equal, given storage volume? Oh god no! Not even close. There are some very important things to know about memory cards before you go and buy one, but unfortunately these things can be hard to find out from the memory manufacturers. One of the things I do at my job is image recovery for customers whose memory cards have become unreadable for whatever reason. I get about six or seven image recovery requests per week, and I've noticed some trends: -- The majority of memory cards that come to me with problems are those cheapass SanDisk cards that are sold just about everywhere (especially at places like Costco and Wal*Mart). Note: this group does not include Ultra or Extreme cards. -- The next largest group of cards to come to me are "no name" memory cards. "No name" refers to cards from a brand no one (in my lab, anyway) has heard of or cards with no brand at all. Many of these cards come from online retailers who package them with a camera to sweeten the deal, or from the customer having to purchase more memory from a tourist trap while travelling. -- The smallest group consists of "professional" cards. In the last couple weeks, I've seen two SanDisk Ultra IIs, one SanDisk Extreme, and one Lexar Professional (which is the brand I use, and which I actually rarely see come to me with problems). What separates these groups? Memory manufacturers generally have three tiers of quality, and they affect the speed and reliability of the memory in each tier. Tier 3: This is the cheap stuff. Cheapass SanDisk cards fall in this category, as well as most other cheapass memory you find (this includes cheapass memory you can buy for your computer and whatnot). If you were to open a tier 3 memory card, you would see more than one piece of flash memory. If, for example, you bought a 512mb card and opened it up, you would most likely see four pieces of 128mb flash memory inside. These modules are cheaper to produce, and so the manufacturers produce them en masse and combine them into larger capacity cards. More memory modules means higher chances of getting defective memory, as well as slower transfer rates, but lower prices. Consumers buy this stuff because they think they're getting a good deal, but in fact they're playing roulette with their data. Tier 2: This stuff is usually produced from a couple memory modules, but not as many as Tier 3 cards. The modules have higher capacities (in some cases there is only one piece of memory in tier 2 cards) and are usually produced under tighter quality controls. These cards are faster than tier 3 cards, but not always as fast as Tier 1 (though they can be very fast). Tier 1: This is the high-end stuff. You generally get what you pay for with tier 1 cards. They are made from a single memory module, and are generally very fast (depending on the technology available at the time they were designed, of course). They are produced under the tightest quality controls, and are often tested at the factory before being shipped. Lexar Professional, SanDisk Extreme, and SanDisk Ultra cards fall under this category, but in my experience with so many bad cards, the Lexar Professional cards seem to be the most reliable (though admittedly not always as fast as the SanDisk cards) So, after learning all this, it has become my opinion that, when buying memory, one should spend the extra money and get professional-quality stuff. You really do get what you pay for. John Celio -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 16/09/2005
RE: The Truth about Memory Cards (was: Re: Film for my digital camera)
Hi John ... Thanks for posting this info. Shel > [Original Message] > From: John Celio > > Are all SD cards more or less equal, given storage volume? > > Oh god no! Not even close. > There are some very important things to know about memory cards before you > go and buy one, but unfortunately these things can be hard to find out from > the memory manufacturers. > > One of the things I do at my job is image recovery for customers whose > memory cards have become unreadable for whatever reason. I get about six or > seven image recovery requests per week, and I've noticed some trends: > > -- The majority of memory cards that come to me with problems are those > cheapass SanDisk cards that are sold just about everywhere (especially at > places like Costco and Wal*Mart). Note: this group does not include Ultra > or Extreme cards. > -- The next largest group of cards to come to me are "no name" memory > cards. "No name" refers to cards from a brand no one (in my lab, anyway) > has heard of or cards with no brand at all. Many of these cards come from > online retailers who package them with a camera to sweeten the deal, or from > the customer having to purchase more memory from a tourist trap while > travelling. > -- The smallest group consists of "professional" cards. In the last couple > weeks, I've seen two SanDisk Ultra IIs, one SanDisk Extreme, and one Lexar > Professional (which is the brand I use, and which I actually rarely see come > to me with problems). > > What separates these groups? > > Memory manufacturers generally have three tiers of quality, and they affect > the speed and reliability of the memory in each tier. > > Tier 3: This is the cheap stuff. Cheapass SanDisk cards fall in this > category, as well as most other cheapass memory you find (this includes > cheapass memory you can buy for your computer and whatnot). If you were to > open a tier 3 memory card, you would see more than one piece of flash > memory. If, for example, you bought a 512mb card and opened it up, you > would most likely see four pieces of 128mb flash memory inside. These > modules are cheaper to produce, and so the manufacturers produce them en > masse and combine them into larger capacity cards. More memory modules > means higher chances of getting defective memory, as well as slower transfer > rates, but lower prices. Consumers buy this stuff because they think > they're getting a good deal, but in fact they're playing roulette with their > data. > > Tier 2: This stuff is usually produced from a couple memory modules, but not > as many as Tier 3 cards. The modules have higher capacities (in some cases > there is only one piece of memory in tier 2 cards) and are usually produced > under tighter quality controls. These cards are faster than tier 3 cards, > but not always as fast as Tier 1 (though they can be very fast). > > Tier 1: This is the high-end stuff. You generally get what you pay for with > tier 1 cards. They are made from a single memory module, and are generally > very fast (depending on the technology available at the time they were > designed, of course). They are produced under the tightest quality > controls, and are often tested at the factory before being shipped. Lexar > Professional, SanDisk Extreme, and SanDisk Ultra cards fall under this > category, but in my experience with so many bad cards, the Lexar > Professional cards seem to be the most reliable (though admittedly not > always as fast as the SanDisk cards) > > > So, after learning all this, it has become my opinion that, when buying > memory, one should spend the extra money and get professional-quality stuff. > You really do get what you pay for. > > John Celio
RE: The truth
I don't know about you guys, but believe him. Łukasz - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
