Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
> Your argument above exactly shows to me why this _is_ related to the > rebranding: You seeing Plasma's launcher specifically as an "entrance to Rebranding was about KDE is the community, not the software. It is *not* about "Plasma works as well with non-KDE software as with the KDE-software". Plasma will always work better with KDE software, in the sense it is more integrated. If we said anything else, we would be lying. Plasma is meant to be used with Dolphin. etc. Now, it can be used with something else, and Dolphin can be used in Gnome, but it will be less than when used together. > This is an excellent point: We have made several attempts to define what, > apart from plasmashell, makes up "the Plasma workspace". The I know. And not being able to define this (btw, this is not only a question for Plasma and VDG, but also of those apps that might see themselves as a part of the desktop environment) is the main reason why we should not go for the half-baked ideas. > The VDG is convinced that it would be hugely beneficial if we (along with > the maintainers of the respective applications) would finally define which > apps belong to the workspace, and then to put them all under one brand. I agree. The question will be - is that brand Plasma or something else? What will be the logo for that brand? What will be the connection to the already existing and recognizable brand we currently have? I'm not usually the one to slow down the progress, but I'm not a fan of changing something just for the sake of that change. We need a pros and cons list - concrete pros and cons, not 'it will make a distinction between workspace and applications', but 'this distinction will make it better to ...', etc. Just remember, we are not a new kid on the block; we are not ashamed of our past to need a completely new start, new name, new everything; we need evolution, not rebirth. :) (I'm going to stop now :) ) Cheers, Ivan ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
On 31.05.2016 22:38, Ivan Čukić wrote: Hi all, There are two main reasons why I'm against this (regardless of what ends up being plasma logo, and regardless of whether it will be pretty or not - the KDE logo would not win any beauty pageants :) ): - (as previously mentioned) the gear-logo is a recognizable brand (easy to spot on on TV or elsewhere) - the menu is entrance to the KDE world (even if there are a lot of non-kde apps in it) - most Plasma users use other KDE applications as well. Changing this logo might feel like we want to separate ourselves from those applications and their developers. I would rather like to see something that joins the community together than splitting it apart. Seeing Plasma's launcher (and with that, Plasma) as "the entrance to the KDE world" is one of the reasons why people still see them as closely related. People are not supposed to see Plasma's launcher more as an entrance to "the KDE world" than as the entrance to the world of any other software available for their system, nor should they think that Plasma is a better entrance to "the KDE world" than any other desktop (or operating system). I honestly do not see this as a part of KDE-is-not-the-desktop rebranding effort. Your argument above exactly shows to me why this _is_ related to the rebranding: You seeing Plasma's launcher specifically as an "entrance to the KDE world" shows me that even you still think of Plasma as more closely related to KDE applications than to other applications and vice versa. That's what the rebranding wanted to change, and we're holding ourselves back if we insist on that visual connection. Microsoft is not Windows (they share the logo) and Apple is not OSX shell (they also show the logo as the 'menu' button), MATE project is not only the desktop (and they use the project logo as the 'menu' button). MATE is insteresting in the way that they include the file manager, archiver, image viewer, document viewer etc (what is traditionally considered a DE). If we had a unified logo for Plasma and Dolphin, Okular, etc. this would be much more fitting. This is an excellent point: We have made several attempts to define what, apart from plasmashell, makes up "the Plasma workspace". The consensus seemed to always have been that some applications are considered to be a core part of the workspace, but individual opinions differ regarding specifically which applications these are. The VDG is convinced that it would be hugely beneficial if we (along with the maintainers of the respective applications) would finally define which apps belong to the workspace, and then to put them all under one brand. Cheers, Thomas ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 10:38 PM, Ivan Čukić wrote: > Microsoft is not Windows (they share the logo) Not that I feel we need to discuss this further, but they do not share the logo. The actual windows logo changes between iterations and has since forever been the four tiles representing a window. The microsoft logo has been first and foremost a wordmark logo up until recently when it adopted the four tiles as part of the logo. And that being said the current windows logo and the current microsoft icon-only logo, are both 4 tiles, they are not the same 4 tiles though (i.e. windows 10 has perspective tiles, microsoft does not). HS ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
Hi all, There are two main reasons why I'm against this (regardless of what ends up being plasma logo, and regardless of whether it will be pretty or not - the KDE logo would not win any beauty pageants :) ): - (as previously mentioned) the gear-logo is a recognizable brand (easy to spot on on TV or elsewhere) - the menu is entrance to the KDE world (even if there are a lot of non-kde apps in it) - most Plasma users use other KDE applications as well. Changing this logo might feel like we want to separate ourselves from those applications and their developers. I would rather like to see something that joins the community together than splitting it apart. I honestly do not see this as a part of KDE-is-not-the-desktop rebranding effort. Microsoft is not Windows (they share the logo) and Apple is not OSX shell (they also show the logo as the 'menu' button), MATE project is not only the desktop (and they use the project logo as the 'menu' button). MATE is insteresting in the way that they include the file manager, archiver, image viewer, document viewer etc (what is traditionally considered a DE). If we had a unified logo for Plasma and Dolphin, Okular, etc. this would be much more fitting. Cheers, Ivan ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
On 03.02.2016 18:31, Marco Martin wrote: On Wednesday 03 February 2016 09:10:06 Dirk Hohndel wrote: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jwBzU1YZWLI/U8U2E1nDM8I/mfY/jDbBMq9GkP4/ s1600/plasma-5-banner.png As someone with a more "outside" perspective... boy that one is ugly. And really doesn't provide a lot of "recognizability". I'm running Plasma on "outside" perspective that makes it very, very valuable. ArchLinux and I see the "K in the gear" logo in the bottom left corner of my screen; replacing this with the three different sized, oddly spaced dots and the '>' symbol? Doesn't sound like an improvement in branding to me. yep, if we replace the old "k with gear" it must be a really good one The VDG is clearly of the opinion that we have to create a clear visual branding for Plasma which is distinct from the KDE brand, and a key element of that has to be Plasma's logo. Therefore now the question is: Can the Plasma team identify itself with the current Plasma logo, or do you feel it still has to be improved? What we certainly do not want is the Plasma team trying to hide away the logo because you don't really like it. So either you like it and make it a key element in Plasma (by using it e.g. for the launcher and the boot splash), or you tell us what you don't like about it so we can improve it. Cheers, Thomas ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
As the one responsible for the logo work (since Uri who made that and other bits is in the VDG) I should probably shime in here. The three dots and the arrow is simply because of the connections to the K logo. The reasoning for it is to make it flexible (do note that we came in blind into this, so creating something for the future, when the future wasn't clear was simply a bit tricky) What that means is that it needs to be distinguishable from the K logo (since that was one of the brief points we where given: "Plasma != KDE" while still being reminiscent of that). Also it needs to be so simplistic and "empty" as it possibly can to be able to be filled with meaning at a later point depending on needs. It has to be recognizable so it had to be unique enough that you could take parts and shapes of it and reuse them while still being easily connected to Plasma. The arrow and the three dots where in my professional opinion the best choice as a good mix between "recognizable while still being abstract", "looking sorta like the K but not so it connects up to the K" and "flexible" What IS relevant though is that since our brand presence isn't all that grand (web presence is still stuck on KDE 4.x fortt example) the usage of it simply isn't there yet and the possability to push it out isn't as much available. So what I think is: We should push for that logo more, instead of slapping together something new... again... still following that brief (OR we get people to give us a NEW brief). We do need to be pushier and change our webpresence quicker, be more aggressive in our communication etc. Also "New challenge: Show off the flexibility of the Plasma logo and use it in a way that Dirk will like and fall in love with it" - Challenge accepted. :) On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 09:10:06 CET Dirk Hohndel wrote: > On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 05:48:40PM +0100, Marco Martin wrote: > > On Wednesday 03 February 2016 16:24:10 David Edmundson wrote: > > > If you mean this one? > > > https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png > > > Sure. > > > > > > Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current > > > branding, but all screenshot based tutorials. > > > > the current one is more like > > http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jwBzU1YZWLI/U8U2E1nDM8I/mfY/jDbBMq9GkP4/ > > s1600/plasma-5-banner.png > As someone with a more "outside" perspective... boy that one is ugly. And > really doesn't provide a lot of "recognizability". I'm running Plasma on > ArchLinux and I see the "K in the gear" logo in the bottom left corner of > my screen; replacing this with the three different sized, oddly spaced > dots and the '>' symbol? Doesn't sound like an improvement in branding to > me. > > And if I go to https://www.kde.org/workspaces/plasmadesktop/ I don't see a > consistent brand identity at all. The logo you mention here isn't even on > that site. > > My 2¢ would be to come up with a strong logo that is simple and provides a > good connection to Plasma as a brand and then use that consistently > everywhere. But you first need the artwork. > > /D > ___ > Plasma-devel mailing list > Plasma-devel@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
On Wednesday 03 February 2016 16:24:10 David Edmundson wrote: > If you mean this one? > https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png > Sure. > > Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current > branding, but all screenshot based tutorials. > > David the current one is more like http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jwBzU1YZWLI/U8U2E1nDM8I/mfY/jDbBMq9GkP4/s1600/plasma-5-banner.png -- Marco Martin ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
2016-02-03 19:25 GMT+01:00 Ivan Čukić : > p.s. Mind that when people say 'I use KDE', they usually think they > are using Plasma, Dolphin, KTp, Okular, Konsole, etc. One of the > /problems/ is that Linux users are spoilt, and started to consider all > the default applications as a part of the operating system - from the > desktop, to music players and office suites. So, having KDE logo > instead of Plasma logo is not that wrong IMO. > > so the easy way would say plasma is part of KDE (which is "only" the community but nobody knows it) and in most distros the branding was replaced by there branding. So we only have to say the users plasma is part of KDE. oh now. the users already know's that he/she use KDE. everything done. It's a little bit sarcastic but it the end I don't have a problem to use the KDE desktop. So are you (plasma mailing list member) part of KDE? YES Do you develop the KDE Desktop or are you a developer of Plasma? Are you proud to develop plasma as part of the KDE Community and want to say I'm part of Plasma, than we need a rebrand. And rebrand mean you have to define your requirements (what do you need, icons, logo, which sizes, ...) +1 for Plasma brand + a for KDE brand cheers Andreas Kainz Member of the VDG Is VDG part of plasma or KDE? ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
If you mean this one? https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png Sure. Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current branding, but all screenshot based tutorials. David ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
p.s. Mind that when people say 'I use KDE', they usually think they are using Plasma, Dolphin, KTp, Okular, Konsole, etc. One of the /problems/ is that Linux users are spoilt, and started to consider all the default applications as a part of the operating system - from the desktop, to music players and office suites. So, having KDE logo instead of Plasma logo is not that wrong IMO. Cheerio, Ivan -- KDE, ivan.cu...@kde.org, http://cukic.co/ gpg key id: 850B6F76 ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
@Marco > the problem is going the last mile to make people stop > saying "I use KDE" :p I'm not sure this warrants killing what we have now. As someone mentioned before, we are not the only ones using a community/company logo for this. I would like a nicer KDE logo (like Gnome people did back in the day - reshaped the foot to look saner... though, there is not much one can do with a gear :) ), but that is another story. @Kainz > nobody of the plasma dev's know HIS logo. "nobody" is a bit misguiding - most of us knew the .:> logo but I get your point. :) @Martin > From what I understood, the neon website is supposed to be a proving > ground for the new kde.org. Thanks for the info - it looks quite nice. Cheerio, Ivan -- KDE, ivan.cu...@kde.org, http://cukic.co/ gpg key id: 850B6F76 ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
it's funny that you discuss about branding and nobody of the plasma dev's know HIS logo. so the discussion should not be which logo and why nobody knows the plasma brand. the question should be we need a brand and therefore we need logos for defined sizes, banners, community stuff (t-shirt,...) and we need if for the 5.6 release so community and vdg come with examples now. but we can also discuss why nobody don't know the plasma brand. the dev's don't know there brand to. cheers Andreas Am 03.02.2016 18:52 schrieb "Marco Martin" : > On Wednesday 03 February 2016 16:24:10 David Edmundson wrote: > > If you mean this one? > > https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png > > Sure. > > > > Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current > > branding, but all screenshot based tutorials. > > the problem is that the current branding is quite broken. > the problem is going the last mile to make people stop saying "I use KDE" > :p > > -- > Marco Martin > ___ > Plasma-devel mailing list > Plasma-devel@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel > ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Ivan Čukić wrote: > > @Offtopic: What happened to kde.org revamp? > >From what I understood, the neon website is supposed to be a proving ground for the new kde.org. Cheers -- Martin Klapetek | KDE Developer ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
On Wednesday 03 February 2016 16:24:10 David Edmundson wrote: > If you mean this one? > https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png > Sure. > > Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current > branding, but all screenshot based tutorials. the problem is that the current branding is quite broken. the problem is going the last mile to make people stop saying "I use KDE" :p -- Marco Martin ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
On Wednesday 03 February 2016 09:10:06 Dirk Hohndel wrote: > > http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jwBzU1YZWLI/U8U2E1nDM8I/mfY/jDbBMq9GkP4/ > > s1600/plasma-5-banner.png > As someone with a more "outside" perspective... boy that one is ugly. And > really doesn't provide a lot of "recognizability". I'm running Plasma on "outside" perspective that makes it very, very valuable. > ArchLinux and I see the "K in the gear" logo in the bottom left corner of > my screen; replacing this with the three different sized, oddly spaced > dots and the '>' symbol? Doesn't sound like an improvement in branding to > me. yep, if we replace the old "k with gear" it must be a really good one > And if I go to https://www.kde.org/workspaces/plasmadesktop/ I don't see a > consistent brand identity at all. The logo you mention here isn't even on > that site. > > My 2¢ would be to come up with a strong logo that is simple and provides a > good connection to Plasma as a brand and then use that consistently > everywhere. But you first need the artwork. yep, you identified another important thing.. our web presence situation is quite ugh, outdated :/ -- Marco Martin ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
I had wanted to CC the VDG list, but I used the wrong address. Now with the correct one. On Mittwoch, 3. Februar 2016 18:16:01 CET Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > On Mittwoch, 3. Februar 2016 16:24:10 CET David Edmundson wrote: > If you mean this one? > https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png > Sure. No, not that one. That one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/ KDE_Plasma_5_banner.png/300px-KDE_Plasma_5_banner.png > Not always with the name, of course. > Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current > branding, but all screenshot based tutorials. We are currently using the KDE logo with the Plasma brand. This is broken branding. If we are to establish Plasma as a brand, we need to use the Plasma logo. If we keep using the community instead of the product logo all over Plasma, we can never break the "KDE = the desktop" misconception. And I'm pretty sure people will still recognize that they're using the same workspace as shown in tutorials even if the logo in the bottom-left corner is different. The VDG is really clear that this is our collective advice (I've CCed the VDG list so anybody who objects to that could speak up). ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
On Mittwoch, 3. Februar 2016 16:24:10 CET David Edmundson wrote: > If you mean this one? > https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png > Sure. No, not that one. That one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/ KDE_Plasma_5_banner.png/300px-KDE_Plasma_5_banner.png Not always with the name, of course. > Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current > branding, but all screenshot based tutorials. We are currently using the KDE logo with the Plasma brand. This is broken branding. If we are to establish Plasma as a brand, we need to use the Plasma logo. If we keep using the community instead of the product logo all over Plasma, we can never break the "KDE = the desktop" misconception. And I'm pretty sure people will still recognize that they're using the same workspace as shown in tutorials even if the logo in the bottom-left corner is different. The VDG is really clear that this is our collective advice (I've CCed the VDG list so anybody who objects to that could speak up). Cheers, Thomas ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
> And if I go to https://www.kde.org/workspaces/plasmadesktop/ I don't see UGH, that *still* shows plasma 4.x :D Cheers, Ivan @Offtopic: What happened to kde.org revamp? ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
> If you mean this one? > https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png > Sure. This one I'm really against. Every time someone posts it (especially the colured version), a fairy dies. For those of you that do not believe in fairies, just imagine kittens dying. :) > Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current > branding, but all screenshot based tutorials. > the current one is more like > http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jwBzU1YZWLI/U8U2E1nDM8I/mfY/jDbBMq9GkP4/s1600/plasma-5-banner.png This one is more pleasant on the eyes, but I share David's concerns. Cheers, Ivan ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 05:48:40PM +0100, Marco Martin wrote: > On Wednesday 03 February 2016 16:24:10 David Edmundson wrote: > > If you mean this one? > > https://dot.kde.org/sites/dot.kde.org/files/plasma-mobile-logo.png > > Sure. > > > > Anything more radical I'm against as it breaks not only our current > > branding, but all screenshot based tutorials. > > the current one is more like > http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jwBzU1YZWLI/U8U2E1nDM8I/mfY/jDbBMq9GkP4/s1600/plasma-5-banner.png As someone with a more "outside" perspective... boy that one is ugly. And really doesn't provide a lot of "recognizability". I'm running Plasma on ArchLinux and I see the "K in the gear" logo in the bottom left corner of my screen; replacing this with the three different sized, oddly spaced dots and the '>' symbol? Doesn't sound like an improvement in branding to me. And if I go to https://www.kde.org/workspaces/plasmadesktop/ I don't see a consistent brand identity at all. The logo you mention here isn't even on that site. My 2¢ would be to come up with a strong logo that is simple and provides a good connection to Plasma as a brand and then use that consistently everywhere. But you first need the artwork. /D ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: plasma logo as start menu icon and ksplash logo
On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 4:59:18 PM CET Marco Martin wrote: > Hi all, > This is just an idea: since our branding of the desktop offer as "Plasma" > seems to start to work, but still needs work, one of the first points that > come to mind speaking about branding is the logo. > > What I'm proposing is to change the K logo on start menus and ksplash (and > any other place where it makes sense, being plymouth, sddm, various docs > and websites around..) with the Plasma logo, to make more marketable as a > stand alone product what our desktop offer is > Either the current Plasma logo or whatever new shiny logo the VDG comes up > with if they feel the current one isn't up to scratch. > I had doubts about this in the past as the K logo is the trademarked one, > but I'm starting to get convinced the time has come ;) > > Opinions? Comments? I feel the same. I had concerns about it in the past but now I'm supportive to the idea. So +1 Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel