Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
2007/10/21, Robert Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 10/21/07, Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, I literally meant that the Python C API is object-oriented. You don't need an object-oriented language to write object-oriented code. I disagree with this statement. C is not an object oriented language, and I've seen attempts to make it somewhat object oriented, however it failed miserably in readability and manageability overhead. just FYI. What about the linux kernel? It's (in large parts) perfectly designed by OO principles (the vfs for example). And I can't remember that it was written in C++. Make a struct with some funtion pointers in it and you are at a basic OO level. the pointers could then manipulate the variables in the struct (remember a C++ struct ist just a class with all things being public). How does that differ from python? - I can't remember having visibility modifiers in python (so that would lead to that python isn't object oriented as any programmer could at any time directly manipulate any method/variable/whatsoever of your classes) -- http://noneisyours.marcher.name http://feeds.feedburner.com/NoneIsYours -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
On 10/22/07, Nicholas Bastin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Object-oriented programming is a design choice, not a language feature. You can write straight procedural code in C++, and you can write object oriented code in C. Sure, C++ has some language features which facilitate object-oriented programming, but it doesn't magically make your code object-oriented. You can certainly write basic object-oriented code in C and hide most of the implementation in preprocessor macros if you so desire. Well, perhaps what I meant was I personally would not turn to C for OOP. As I said before, I've seen OOP attemps using C and it was VERY unattractive (this coming from a C++ programmer of course). It just doesn't make sense to me why you'd choose an OOP approach in a language that makes it messy over a language that had OOP in mind when it was designed. There are far better languages (which, as you said, have features to facilitate OOP) that I would choose long before I chose C, such as C++. Yes, I agree you can do OOP in any language as it is just a concept, however there are other entities that can greatly affect which language you choose to intake such a responsibility. For example, I'd choose Python OOP over C++ OOP because to me Python code is cleaner and has less syntax redundancy. You get to read the important stuff more quickly. A lot of people would disagree in that whitespace does not make code more readable than operator delimiters, however this is just my opinion. In addition, I'd choose Python OOP over C++ OOP for quick applications that didn't require a great amount of performance (such as a level editor for a game). For the game itself, I'd choose C++ OOP because it is way more flexible and allows me to optimize the game for speed as best as I can, whereas with python you can only optimize only to a certain point (as with any language), which still may not be fast enough. In any case, it's really not fair to compare speed between an interpreted language vs a compiled language. Given what I've learned and things I've come to like, I doubt I'd do any sort of programming ever again that didn't involve some sort of object oriented design. That's just my preference. This preference, in turn, is what motivated my original question. The CPython API interface itself seems modularized, NOT object oriented (only from what I saw). Boost.Python, as so many have already noted, is a wrapper over that interface introducing C++ which provides the OOP I am looking for. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
This preference, in turn, is what motivated my original question. The CPython API interface itself seems modularized, NOT object oriented (only from what I saw). I suggest you look again, then. Things like PyObject_String, PyObject_GetAttrString, or PySequence_GetItem all express the object-orientation in the API. The hide the actual implementation of how string conversion is done, how attribute names are converted to attribute values, and how an item in an enumerable sequence is accessed. They exhibit polymorphism, late binding, and encapsulation, which are among the core properties of object-orientation. The C API (although not these three functions) also supports inheritance, which is the core property missing in the previous list. Regards, Martin -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
Is there a C++ version of the C Python API packaged with python 2.5? Stargaming has already mentioned the fine points; the first answer is: yes, the API packaged python 2.5 can be used with C++. It is a C++ version of the same API as it adds proper extern C declarations around all prototypes, and it was specifically cleaned up (ten years ago) to work with C++. This API does not make use of many of the C++ features, including classes, templates, or overloading. Regards, Martin -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
On 10/21/07, Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a C++ version of the C Python API packaged with python 2.5? Stargaming has already mentioned the fine points; the first answer is: yes, the API packaged python 2.5 can be used with C++. It is a C++ version of the same API as it adds proper extern C declarations around all prototypes, and it was specifically cleaned up (ten years ago) to work with C++. This API does not make use of many of the C++ features, including classes, templates, or overloading. Regards, Martin Well C++ implicitly includes OOP since that is the foundation of the language. I was more or less asking if there was an object oriented version of the Python embedded API or perhaps an OO wrapper. However it doesn't seem that way, so I may have to make my own. Thanks for the responses. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
Well C++ implicitly includes OOP since that is the foundation of the language. I was more or less asking if there was an object oriented version of the Python embedded API or perhaps an OO wrapper. However it doesn't seem that way, so I may have to make my own. I think you are misinterpreting what you are seeing. The Python C API *is* object-oriented. It has all features of object-orientation: classes, encapsulation, polymorphism, late binding, ... As for make your own: people have tried this before; there are multiple C++ wrappers around the Python C API available. Regards, Martin -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
On 10/21/07, Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you are misinterpreting what you are seeing. The Python C API *is* object-oriented. It has all features of object-orientation: classes, encapsulation, polymorphism, late binding, ... As for make your own: people have tried this before; there are multiple C++ wrappers around the Python C API available. Regards, Martin Could you emphasize a little more? I haven't worked much at all with the Python C API, so I may be misunderstanding. First of all, you say that the Python C API is object oriented, which is contradictory because it should read Python C++ API is object oriented. Perhaps this is a typo, or maybe you're referencing some C++ wrapper for the Python C API that you failed to mention the name of. You also mentioned that there are multiple C++ wrappers arround the Python C API Available... could you provide names for a few of the popular ones? Thanks again! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
Could you emphasize a little more? I haven't worked much at all with the Python C API, so I may be misunderstanding. First of all, you say that the Python C API is object oriented, which is contradictory because it should read Python C++ API is object oriented. Perhaps this is a typo, or maybe you're referencing some C++ wrapper for the Python C API that you failed to mention the name of. No, I literally meant that the Python C API is object-oriented. You don't need an object-oriented language to write object-oriented code. You also mentioned that there are multiple C++ wrappers arround the Python C API Available... could you provide names for a few of the popular ones? The most popular ones are Boost.Python, CXX, and PySTL. Regards, Martin -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
On 10/21/07, Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, I literally meant that the Python C API is object-oriented. You don't need an object-oriented language to write object-oriented code. I disagree with this statement. C is not an object oriented language, and I've seen attempts to make it somewhat object oriented, however it failed miserably in readability and manageability overhead. However, this isn't the place to discuss such a thing so I've got nothing more to say than that. I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to my inquiry and offer a few C++ wrapper API's for the Python C API. Take care! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... The most popular ones are Boost.Python, CXX, and PySTL. I think SIP is also pretty popular (see http://www.riverbankcomputing.co.uk/sip/). Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 16:17:19 -0500, Robert Dailey wrote: On 10/21/07, Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, I literally meant that the Python C API is object-oriented. You don't need an object-oriented language to write object-oriented code. I disagree with this statement. C is not an object oriented language, and I've seen attempts to make it somewhat object oriented, however it failed miserably in readability and manageability overhead. However, this isn't the place to discuss such a thing so I've got nothing more to say than that. What he means is that the C API provides a complete, if boilerplate- heavy, interface to object oriented aspects of Python. I.e., you can write Python types completely in C, including all the OOPy stuff like inheritance and so on. You don't need a language with built-in support of OOP to do that. Now, a C++ API for CPython would necessarily be built on top of the C API, which carries some limitations relative to the OOP abilities of C++ itself. I suspect all you'll get from a C++ binding is a slightly more comfortable (to people who like C++) calling interface. It could help bring some unity to your extension code, and maybe get rid of a few typecasts and simplify function names. But you shouldn't expect anything like the ability to freely inherit between C++ and Python classes. Carl Banks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
Robert Dailey wrote: On 10/21/07, Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, I literally meant that the Python C API is object-oriented. You don't need an object-oriented language to write object-oriented code. I disagree with this statement. C is not an object oriented language, and I've seen attempts to make it somewhat object oriented, however it failed miserably in readability and manageability overhead. However, this isn't the place to discuss such a thing so I've got nothing more to say than that. Guess you haven't programmed in GTK+ on C, then. Very heavy in object-oriented programmin. C++'s OOP stuff is just pure syntactic sugar, nothing more, nothing less. Python's OO nature is a bit deeper, since we're talking a dynamic language. Scheme, another dynamic language, is not inherently OO or non-OO. You can use it in either fashion. I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to my inquiry and offer a few C++ wrapper API's for the Python C API. Take care! Any C++ version of the python API is by definition going to be a wrapper around the C version. Even the C version is a wrapper around the python object model. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Robert Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a C++ version of the C Python API packaged with python 2.5? It would be nice to have a OOP approach to embedding python in C++. It would also be a bonus if this C++ Python API cleaned up a lot of the messy code involved in embedding python. One other thing: you may get more advice from C++-sig and/or capi-sig; mail.python.org has the info for subscribing to those. -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ The best way to get information on Usenet is not to ask a question, but to post the wrong information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
On 10/21/07, Carl Banks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now, a C++ API for CPython would necessarily be built on top of the C API, which carries some limitations relative to the OOP abilities of C++ itself. It wouldn't have to be, although it'd be much more of a maintenance nightmare if it poked into the Python internals. But you shouldn't expect anything like the ability to freely inherit between C++ and Python classes. You can do this with Boost.Python. -- Nick -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
On 10/21/07, Robert Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/21/07, Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, I literally meant that the Python C API is object-oriented. You don't need an object-oriented language to write object-oriented code. I disagree with this statement. C is not an object oriented language, and I've seen attempts to make it somewhat object oriented, however it failed miserably in readability and manageability overhead. However, this isn't the place to discuss such a thing so I've got nothing more to say than that. Object-oriented programming is a design choice, not a language feature. You can write straight procedural code in C++, and you can write object oriented code in C. Sure, C++ has some language features which facilitate object-oriented programming, but it doesn't magically make your code object-oriented. You can certainly write basic object-oriented code in C and hide most of the implementation in preprocessor macros if you so desire. -- Nick -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
On 10/19/07, Robert Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a C++ version of the C Python API packaged with python 2.5? It would be nice to have a OOP approach to embedding python in C++. It would also be a bonus if this C++ Python API cleaned up a lot of the messy code involved in embedding python. C++ is object orientated? I heard it was, but I don't buy it. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
C++ version of the C Python API?
Hi, Is there a C++ version of the C Python API packaged with python 2.5? It would be nice to have a OOP approach to embedding python in C++. It would also be a bonus if this C++ Python API cleaned up a lot of the messy code involved in embedding python. Thanks. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: C++ version of the C Python API?
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 17:37:29 -0500, Robert Dailey wrote: Hi, Is there a C++ version of the C Python API packaged with python 2.5? It would be nice to have a OOP approach to embedding python in C++. It would also be a bonus if this C++ Python API cleaned up a lot of the messy code involved in embedding python. Thanks. Perhaps, the remark about `C++ extensions`_ or `Embedding in C++`_ in the `Extending and Embedding`_ docs (described on doc.python.org as a tutorial for C/C++ programmers) can help. Depending on your level of embedding, those random annotations spread over the extending docs, found with a little patience and ctrl+f, might help: * In C++, the operators new and delete are used with essentially the same meaning and we'll restrict the following discussion to the C case. -- `1.10 Reference counts http://docs.python.org/ext/refcounts.html`_ * Note that PyMODINIT_FUNC declares the function as void return type, declares any special linkage declarations required by the platform, and for C++ declares the function as extern C. -- `1.4 The Module's Method Table and Initialization Function http://docs.python.org/ext/ methodTable.html`_ Cheers, Stargaming .. _C++ extensions: http://docs.python.org/ext/cplusplus.html .. _Embedding in C++: http://docs.python.org/ext/embeddingInCplusplus.html .. _Extending and embedding: http://docs.python.org/ext/ext.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
