[Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[kd6aaj]

Strange, considering the GMRS can come with radios you buy, before you even 
have the license. I guess you have to be one of the BIG boys to sell radios 
preprogrammed with those freqs.

and there is an EXCEPTION:

Title 47: Telecommunication
PART 90—PRIVATE LAND MOBILE RADIO SERVICES
Subpart N—Operating Requirements

§ 90.427   Precautions against unauthorized operation.
(a) Each transmitter shall be so installed and protected that it is not 
accessible to or capable of operation by persons other than those duly 
authorized by and under the control of the licensee. Provisions of this part 
authorizing certain unlicensed persons to operate stations, or authorizing 
unattended operation of stations in certain circumstances, shall not be 
construed to change or diminish in any respect the responsibility of station 
licensees to maintain control over the stations licensed to them (including all 
transmitter units thereof), or for the proper functioning and operation of 
those stations and transmitter units in accordance with the terms of the 
licenses of those stations.

(b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with §90.417, no person shall 
program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the 
transmitter is not authorized.

and:

§ 90.417   Interstation communication.
 top 
(a) Any station licensed under this part may communicate with any other station 
without restriction as to type, service, or licensee when the communications 
involved relate directly to the imminent safety-of-life or property.

(b) Any station licensed under this part may communicate with any other station 
licensed under this part, with U.S. Government stations, and with foreign 
stations, in connection with mutual activities, provided that where the 
communication involves foreign stations prior approval of the Commission must 
be obtained, and such communication must be permitted by the government that 
authorizes the foreign station. Communications by Public Safety Pool eligibles 
with foreign stations will be approved only to be conducted in accordance with 
Article 5 of the Inter-American Radio Agreement, Washington, DC, 1949, the 
provisions of which are set forth in §90.20(b). 

[43 FR 54791, Nov. 22, 1978, as amended at 62 FR 18933, Apr. 17, 1997]

---end of CFR regs---

So, what's to stop someone from saying they programmed a freq for emergency use 
only? Why else have the exception, unless you are expected to have an 
"unauthorized" frequency programed in your radio?

So, the exception (90.417) clearly makes 90.427 un-enforceable UNLESS you can 
prove intent to operate on the "unauthorized" frequency for NON-emergency 
communications. The school was operating on the frequency, but they don't say 
what kind of communication was involved.


--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, wd8chl  wrote:
>
> In February, a large two-way radio dealer was issued a Notice Of 
> Violation (NOV) by the FCC for adding a frequency into radios that the 
> customer was not licensed for. The Notice stated that Section 90.427(b) 
> prohibits programming into a transmitter frequencies the licensee using 
> the transmitter is not authorized for.
> 
> Make sure your customers are licensed for the frequencies you put in 
> radios you sell!
> 
> Information from Mission Critical Magazine, May 2010. FCC enforcement 
> case NOV 20103298.
> -
> Jim Barbour
> Transcore
>

[Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[J C]

If my life is in danger, I am going to use any frequency that I have to get 
help. I don't care if it is a remote broadcast link frequency for a radio 
station! But that's me.

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "La Rue Communications" 
 wrote:
>
> I forgot to add something, kind of crucial to my point at the end back 
> there. if my life was in jeopardy then. Is there a frequency that Law 
> Enforcement monitors for non emergency situations? For the public sector? Or 
> would it be any officer who knows how to build their own scanners? Let me 
> reclarify - if I was in an accident, and my radio was in reach over my cell 
> (i.e. my cell was in my pocket, or got knocked under the seat), and I had a 
> life threatening injury, what kind of response would that evoke?
> 
> John Hymes
> La Rue Communications
> 10 S. Aurora Street
> Stockton, CA 95202
> http://tinyurl.com/2dtngmn
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Maire-Radios 
>   To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:30 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   you should not even think of doing that.
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: La Rue Communications 
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 1:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
> 
> 
>   
> 
> So if I had a UHF Saber, and programmed it to a Police frequency for the 
> purposes of TX EMERGENCY info only like 911, then its required to have 
> authorization? What if I was involved in a wreck and my radio was the only 
> thing in reach over my cell?
> 
> John Hymes
> La Rue Communications
> 10 S. Aurora Street
> Stockton, CA 95202
> http://tinyurl.com/2dtngmn
>   - Original Message ----- 
>       From: kd6aaj 
>   To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:58 AM
>   Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Strange, considering the GMRS can come with radios you buy, before you 
> even have the license. I guess you have to be one of the BIG boys to sell 
> radios preprogrammed with those freqs.
> 
>   and there is an EXCEPTION:
> 
>   Title 47: Telecommunication
>   PART 90-PRIVATE LAND MOBILE RADIO SERVICES
>   Subpart N-Operating Requirements
> 
>   § 90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.
>   (a) Each transmitter shall be so installed and protected that it is not 
> accessible to or capable of operation by persons other than those duly 
> authorized by and under the control of the licensee. Provisions of this part 
> authorizing certain unlicensed persons to operate stations, or authorizing 
> unattended operation of stations in certain circumstances, shall not be 
> construed to change or diminish in any respect the responsibility of station 
> licensees to maintain control over the stations licensed to them (including 
> all transmitter units thereof), or for the proper functioning and operation 
> of those stations and transmitter units in accordance with the terms of the 
> licenses of those stations.
> 
>   (b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with §90.417, no person 
> shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the 
> transmitter is not authorized.
> 
>   and:
> 
>   § 90.417 Interstation communication.
>   top 
>   (a) Any station licensed under this part may communicate with any other 
> station without restriction as to type, service, or licensee when the 
> communications involved relate directly to the imminent safety-of-life or 
> property.
> 
>   (b) Any station licensed under this part may communicate with any other 
> station licensed under this part, with U.S. Government stations, and with 
> foreign stations, in connection with mutual activities, provided that where 
> the communication involves foreign stations prior approval of the Commission 
> must be obtained, and such communication must be permitted by the government 
> that authorizes the foreign station. Communications by Public Safety Pool 
> eligibles with foreign stations will be approved only to be conducted in 
> accordance with Article 5 of the Inter-American Radio Agreement, Washington, 
> DC, 1949, the provisions of which are set forth in §90.20(b). 
> 
>   [43 FR 54791, Nov. 22, 1978, as amended at 62 FR 18933, Apr. 17, 1997]
> 
>   ---end of CFR regs---
> 
>   So, what's to

[Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[J C]

In reality what are the chances of needing to use any frequency that you're 
unauthorized to use in an emergency? And I am talking like like or death in a 
car sinking in the river emergency- not you have a flat tire and are stuck in a 
snow drift emergency. Most of the time one can use a cellphone of some other 
means rather than using a frequency that they are not licensed for. I bet you 
if I came up on a police car that had been in an accident and the officer was 
unconscious, I wouldn't get into a bit of trouble for picking up his radio and 
calling for help. It isn't any different if someone were to do it for 
themselves if need be. I'm sure they would investigate it, but I don't see how 
there would be anything to charge someone with if it is a true emergency. My 
sense of entitlement comes from that fact that I would use any resources that I 
have at my disposal to save someones life, and worry about the consequences 
later. Are you going to follow the speed limit if you are trying to get your 
loved one to a hospital because she is in labor, or worse yet sick or hurt? NO! 
We're talking about following rules here and there are always exceptions to the 
rule. I hope that I don't ever get put into a situation where I have to make 
those decisions, but I know what I would do. And if you would rather die or let 
someone die than to use a frequency that you unauthorized to use, good for you!

-Jordan 
--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Richard Fletcher  
wrote:
>
>  J. C. and the rest.
> 
>  Yes I am going to say this because it seems to have been missed. When John 
> asked is there a "frequency monitored by law enforcement" And to JC who said 
> he "going to use any frequency that I have to get help" (Not to bright of a 
> statement there JC, from where do you get this grand sense of entitlement 
> anyway?) You guys do know that in the US there is still available "CB Radio" 
> Right? Chanel 9 used to be monitored prior to Cellular and  there on the 
> 40 CB channels  you can "Legally" communicate to your hearts content. As 
> well as on the FRS devices. And with the flood of cell phones out there 
> now, the CB Band is very clear. Now I do have radio equipment capable of 
> almost any freq out there, but since I am not licensed on it I would not even 
> concede transmitting on it. Only exception where I did was when I was at a GE 
> Radio shop from 1980 to 1995 where I would call in to the PD and Fire 
> Dispatcher (And government bands) to confirm transmission. and
>  all was done professionally while in maintaining of that agency's radio 
> equipment. 
>  I find it quite strange that any Ham (if you actually are one) would think 
> that just because you have a radio capable of transmitting anywhere would 
> think that he was entitled to do so. And no I am not a Ham, but I do listen! 
> I am license on GMRS, and most folks there are in some cases more 
> professional than that of some of the childish HAM conversations I have 
> heard (usually on simplex freqs)
> 
>  Now I bet this will get things stirred up now won't they?
> 
> Richard 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> ____
> From: J C 
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, May 1, 2010 12:30:08 AM
> Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
> 
>   
> If my life is in danger, I am going to use any frequency that I have to get 
> help. I don't care if it is a remote broadcast link frequency for a radio 
> station! But that's me.
> 
> --- In Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com, "La Rue Communications" 
>  wrote:
> >
> > I forgot to add something, kind of crucial to my point at the end back 
> > there. if my life was in jeopardy then. Is there a frequency that Law 
> > Enforcement monitors for non emergency situations? For the public sector? 
> > Or would it be any officer who knows how to build their own scanners? Let 
> > me reclarify - if I was in an accident, and my radio was in reach over my 
> > cell (i.e. my cell was in my pocket, or got knocked under the seat), and I 
> > had a life threatening injury, what kind of response would that evoke?
> > 
> > John Hymes
> > La Rue Communications
> > 10 S. Aurora Street
> > Stockton, CA 95202
> > http://tinyurl. com/2dtngmn
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: Maire-Radios 
> > To: Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com 
> > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:30 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > you should not even think of doing that.
> > 
> > 
> &

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[La Rue Communications]

So if I had a UHF Saber, and programmed it to a Police frequency for the 
purposes of TX EMERGENCY info only like 911, then its required to have 
authorization? What if I was involved in a wreck and my radio was the only 
thing in reach over my cell?

John Hymes
La Rue Communications
10 S. Aurora Street
Stockton, CA 95202
http://tinyurl.com/2dtngmn
  - Original Message - 
  From: kd6aaj 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:58 AM
  Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers





  Strange, considering the GMRS can come with radios you buy, before you even 
have the license. I guess you have to be one of the BIG boys to sell radios 
preprogrammed with those freqs.

  and there is an EXCEPTION:

  Title 47: Telecommunication
  PART 90-PRIVATE LAND MOBILE RADIO SERVICES
  Subpart N-Operating Requirements

  § 90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.
  (a) Each transmitter shall be so installed and protected that it is not 
accessible to or capable of operation by persons other than those duly 
authorized by and under the control of the licensee. Provisions of this part 
authorizing certain unlicensed persons to operate stations, or authorizing 
unattended operation of stations in certain circumstances, shall not be 
construed to change or diminish in any respect the responsibility of station 
licensees to maintain control over the stations licensed to them (including all 
transmitter units thereof), or for the proper functioning and operation of 
those stations and transmitter units in accordance with the terms of the 
licenses of those stations.

  (b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with §90.417, no person shall 
program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the 
transmitter is not authorized.

  and:

  § 90.417 Interstation communication.
  top 
  (a) Any station licensed under this part may communicate with any other 
station without restriction as to type, service, or licensee when the 
communications involved relate directly to the imminent safety-of-life or 
property.

  (b) Any station licensed under this part may communicate with any other 
station licensed under this part, with U.S. Government stations, and with 
foreign stations, in connection with mutual activities, provided that where the 
communication involves foreign stations prior approval of the Commission must 
be obtained, and such communication must be permitted by the government that 
authorizes the foreign station. Communications by Public Safety Pool eligibles 
with foreign stations will be approved only to be conducted in accordance with 
Article 5 of the Inter-American Radio Agreement, Washington, DC, 1949, the 
provisions of which are set forth in §90.20(b). 

  [43 FR 54791, Nov. 22, 1978, as amended at 62 FR 18933, Apr. 17, 1997]

  ---end of CFR regs---

  So, what's to stop someone from saying they programmed a freq for emergency 
use only? Why else have the exception, unless you are expected to have an 
"unauthorized" frequency programed in your radio?

  So, the exception (90.417) clearly makes 90.427 un-enforceable UNLESS you can 
prove intent to operate on the "unauthorized" frequency for NON-emergency 
communications. The school was operating on the frequency, but they don't say 
what kind of communication was involved.

  --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, wd8chl  wrote:
  >
  > In February, a large two-way radio dealer was issued a Notice Of 
  > Violation (NOV) by the FCC for adding a frequency into radios that the 
  > customer was not licensed for. The Notice stated that Section 90.427(b) 
  > prohibits programming into a transmitter frequencies the licensee using 
  > the transmitter is not authorized for.
  > 
  > Make sure your customers are licensed for the frequencies you put in 
  > radios you sell!
  > 
  > Information from Mission Critical Magazine, May 2010. FCC enforcement 
  > case NOV 20103298.
  > -
  > Jim Barbour
  > Transcore
  >



  

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[Doug Hutchison]

It is called responsibility and conscience and above all RESPECT 
Well intentioned input dumb response!

D


On 29/04/2010 16:58:11, kd6aaj (kd6...@yahoo.com) wrote:
 > Strange, considering the GMRS can come with radios you buy, before you
 > even have the license. I guess you have to be one of the BIG boys to 
sell
 > radios preprogrammed with those freqs.
 >
 > and there is an EXCEPTION:
 >
 > Title 47: Telecommunication
 > PART 90—PRIVATE LAND MOBILE RADIO SERVICES
 > Subpart N—Operating Requirements
 >
 > § 90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.
 > (a) Each transmitter shall be so installed and protected that it is not
 > accessible to or capable of operation by persons other than those duly
 > authorized by and under the control of the licensee. Provisions of this
 > part authorizing certain unlicensed persons to operate stations, or
 > authorizing unattended operation of stations in certain circumstances,
 > shall not be construed to change or diminish in any respect the
 > responsibility of station licensees to maintain control over the 
stations
 > licensed to them (including all transmitter units thereof), or for the
 > proper functioning and operation of those stations and transmitter units
 > in accordance with the terms of the licenses of those stations.
 >
 > (b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with §90.417, no person
 > shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee 
using
 > the transmitter is not authorized.%0






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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[wd8chl]

There is no school involved in this, nor is GMRS involved. This was a
Wal-Mart that a dealer programmed a business frequency into their radios
that they aren't licensed for.

n 4/29/2010 12:58 PM, kd6aaj wrote:
>
>
> Strange, considering the GMRS can come with radios you buy, before
> you even have the license. I guess you have to be one of the BIG boys
> to sell radios preprogrammed with those freqs.
>
> and there is an EXCEPTION:
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[wd8chl]

On 4/29/2010 1:10 PM, La Rue Communications wrote:
> So if I had a UHF Saber, and programmed it to a Police frequency for
> the purposes of TX EMERGENCY info only like 911, then its required to
> have authorization? What if I was involved in a wreck and my radio
> was the only thing in reach over my cell?

Technically, yes, you are still supposed to have authorization. In a 
GENUINE emergency, it can be waived.

But again, GMRS is not involved. This was a Business (IB) frequency that 
a business wasn't licensed for programmed into their radios by a dealer. 
The dealer and the store were both cited.

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[wd8chl]

arggh: after digging, here's the link to the actual NOV:
http://www.fcc.gov/eb/FieldNotices/2003/DOC-296584A1.html



>
>So, what's to stop someone from saying they programmed a freq for 
> emergency use only? Why else have the exception, unless you are expected to 
> have an "unauthorized" frequency programed in your radio?
>
>So, the exception (90.417) clearly makes 90.427 un-enforceable UNLESS you 
> can prove intent to operate on the "unauthorized" frequency for NON-emergency 
> communications. The school was operating on the frequency, but they don't say 
> what kind of communication was involved.
>
>--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, wd8chl  wrote:
>>
>>  In February, a large two-way radio dealer was issued a Notice Of
>>  Violation (NOV) by the FCC for adding a frequency into radios that the
>>  customer was not licensed for. The Notice stated that Section 90.427(b)
>>  prohibits programming into a transmitter frequencies the licensee using
>>  the transmitter is not authorized for.
>>
>>  Make sure your customers are licensed for the frequencies you put in
>>  radios you sell!
>>
>>  Information from Mission Critical Magazine, May 2010. FCC enforcement
>>  case NOV 20103298.
>>  -
>>  Jim Barbour
>>  Transcore
>>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[Maire-Radios]

you should not even think of doing that.


  - Original Message - 
  From: La Rue Communications 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 1:10 PM
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers




  So if I had a UHF Saber, and programmed it to a Police frequency for the 
purposes of TX EMERGENCY info only like 911, then its required to have 
authorization? What if I was involved in a wreck and my radio was the only 
thing in reach over my cell?

  John Hymes
  La Rue Communications
  10 S. Aurora Street
  Stockton, CA 95202
  http://tinyurl.com/2dtngmn
- Original Message - 
From: kd6aaj 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:58 AM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers


  


Strange, considering the GMRS can come with radios you buy, before you even 
have the license. I guess you have to be one of the BIG boys to sell radios 
preprogrammed with those freqs.

and there is an EXCEPTION:

Title 47: Telecommunication
PART 90-PRIVATE LAND MOBILE RADIO SERVICES
Subpart N-Operating Requirements

§ 90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.
(a) Each transmitter shall be so installed and protected that it is not 
accessible to or capable of operation by persons other than those duly 
authorized by and under the control of the licensee. Provisions of this part 
authorizing certain unlicensed persons to operate stations, or authorizing 
unattended operation of stations in certain circumstances, shall not be 
construed to change or diminish in any respect the responsibility of station 
licensees to maintain control over the stations licensed to them (including all 
transmitter units thereof), or for the proper functioning and operation of 
those stations and transmitter units in accordance with the terms of the 
licenses of those stations.

(b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with §90.417, no person shall 
program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the 
transmitter is not authorized.

and:

§ 90.417 Interstation communication.
top 
(a) Any station licensed under this part may communicate with any other 
station without restriction as to type, service, or licensee when the 
communications involved relate directly to the imminent safety-of-life or 
property.

(b) Any station licensed under this part may communicate with any other 
station licensed under this part, with U.S. Government stations, and with 
foreign stations, in connection with mutual activities, provided that where the 
communication involves foreign stations prior approval of the Commission must 
be obtained, and such communication must be permitted by the government that 
authorizes the foreign station. Communications by Public Safety Pool eligibles 
with foreign stations will be approved only to be conducted in accordance with 
Article 5 of the Inter-American Radio Agreement, Washington, DC, 1949, the 
provisions of which are set forth in §90.20(b). 

[43 FR 54791, Nov. 22, 1978, as amended at 62 FR 18933, Apr. 17, 1997]

---end of CFR regs---

So, what's to stop someone from saying they programmed a freq for emergency 
use only? Why else have the exception, unless you are expected to have an 
"unauthorized" frequency programed in your radio?

So, the exception (90.417) clearly makes 90.427 un-enforceable UNLESS you 
can prove intent to operate on the "unauthorized" frequency for NON-emergency 
communications. The school was operating on the frequency, but they don't say 
what kind of communication was involved.

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, wd8chl  wrote:
>
> In February, a large two-way radio dealer was issued a Notice Of 
> Violation (NOV) by the FCC for adding a frequency into radios that the 
> customer was not licensed for. The Notice stated that Section 90.427(b) 
> prohibits programming into a transmitter frequencies the licensee using 
> the transmitter is not authorized for.
> 
> Make sure your customers are licensed for the frequencies you put in 
> radios you sell!
> 
> Information from Mission Critical Magazine, May 2010. FCC enforcement 
> case NOV 20103298.
> -
> Jim Barbour
> Transcore
>




  

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[La Rue Communications]

Purely hypothetical. Not even close to thinking of doing that. :-) 

John Hymes
La Rue Communications
10 S. Aurora Street
Stockton, CA 95202
http://tinyurl.com/2dtngmn
  - Original Message - 
  From: Maire-Radios 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:30 AM
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers




  you should not even think of doing that.


- Original Message - 
From: La Rue Communications 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers


  

So if I had a UHF Saber, and programmed it to a Police frequency for the 
purposes of TX EMERGENCY info only like 911, then its required to have 
authorization? What if I was involved in a wreck and my radio was the only 
thing in reach over my cell?

John Hymes
La Rue Communications
10 S. Aurora Street
Stockton, CA 95202
http://tinyurl.com/2dtngmn
  - Original Message - 
  From: kd6aaj 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:58 AM
  Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers





  Strange, considering the GMRS can come with radios you buy, before you 
even have the license. I guess you have to be one of the BIG boys to sell 
radios preprogrammed with those freqs.

  and there is an EXCEPTION:

  Title 47: Telecommunication
  PART 90-PRIVATE LAND MOBILE RADIO SERVICES
  Subpart N-Operating Requirements

  § 90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.
  (a) Each transmitter shall be so installed and protected that it is not 
accessible to or capable of operation by persons other than those duly 
authorized by and under the control of the licensee. Provisions of this part 
authorizing certain unlicensed persons to operate stations, or authorizing 
unattended operation of stations in certain circumstances, shall not be 
construed to change or diminish in any respect the responsibility of station 
licensees to maintain control over the stations licensed to them (including all 
transmitter units thereof), or for the proper functioning and operation of 
those stations and transmitter units in accordance with the terms of the 
licenses of those stations.

  (b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with §90.417, no person 
shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the 
transmitter is not authorized.

  and:

  § 90.417 Interstation communication.
  top 
  (a) Any station licensed under this part may communicate with any other 
station without restriction as to type, service, or licensee when the 
communications involved relate directly to the imminent safety-of-life or 
property.

  (b) Any station licensed under this part may communicate with any other 
station licensed under this part, with U.S. Government stations, and with 
foreign stations, in connection with mutual activities, provided that where the 
communication involves foreign stations prior approval of the Commission must 
be obtained, and such communication must be permitted by the government that 
authorizes the foreign station. Communications by Public Safety Pool eligibles 
with foreign stations will be approved only to be conducted in accordance with 
Article 5 of the Inter-American Radio Agreement, Washington, DC, 1949, the 
provisions of which are set forth in §90.20(b). 

  [43 FR 54791, Nov. 22, 1978, as amended at 62 FR 18933, Apr. 17, 1997]

  ---end of CFR regs---

  So, what's to stop someone from saying they programmed a freq for 
emergency use only? Why else have the exception, unless you are expected to 
have an "unauthorized" frequency programed in your radio?

  So, the exception (90.417) clearly makes 90.427 un-enforceable UNLESS you 
can prove intent to operate on the "unauthorized" frequency for NON-emergency 
communications. The school was operating on the frequency, but they don't say 
what kind of communication was involved.

  --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, wd8chl  wrote:
  >
  > In February, a large two-way radio dealer was issued a Notice Of 
  > Violation (NOV) by the FCC for adding a frequency into radios that the 
  > customer was not licensed for. The Notice stated that Section 90.427(b) 
  > prohibits programming into a transmitter frequencies the licensee using 
  > the transmitter is not authorized for.
  > 
  > Make sure your customers are licensed for the frequencies you put in 
  > radios you sell!
  > 
  > Information from Mission Critical Magazine, May 2010. FCC enforcement 
  > case NOV 20103298.
  > -
  > Jim Barbour
  > Transcore
  >





  

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[La Rue Communications]

I forgot to add something, kind of crucial to my point at the end back 
there. if my life was in jeopardy then. Is there a frequency that Law 
Enforcement monitors for non emergency situations? For the public sector? Or 
would it be any officer who knows how to build their own scanners? Let me 
reclarify - if I was in an accident, and my radio was in reach over my cell 
(i.e. my cell was in my pocket, or got knocked under the seat), and I had a 
life threatening injury, what kind of response would that evoke?

John Hymes
La Rue Communications
10 S. Aurora Street
Stockton, CA 95202
http://tinyurl.com/2dtngmn
  - Original Message - 
  From: Maire-Radios 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:30 AM
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers




  you should not even think of doing that.


- Original Message - 
From: La Rue Communications 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers


  

So if I had a UHF Saber, and programmed it to a Police frequency for the 
purposes of TX EMERGENCY info only like 911, then its required to have 
authorization? What if I was involved in a wreck and my radio was the only 
thing in reach over my cell?

John Hymes
La Rue Communications
10 S. Aurora Street
Stockton, CA 95202
http://tinyurl.com/2dtngmn
  - Original Message - 
  From: kd6aaj 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:58 AM
  Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers





  Strange, considering the GMRS can come with radios you buy, before you 
even have the license. I guess you have to be one of the BIG boys to sell 
radios preprogrammed with those freqs.

  and there is an EXCEPTION:

  Title 47: Telecommunication
  PART 90-PRIVATE LAND MOBILE RADIO SERVICES
  Subpart N-Operating Requirements

  § 90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.
  (a) Each transmitter shall be so installed and protected that it is not 
accessible to or capable of operation by persons other than those duly 
authorized by and under the control of the licensee. Provisions of this part 
authorizing certain unlicensed persons to operate stations, or authorizing 
unattended operation of stations in certain circumstances, shall not be 
construed to change or diminish in any respect the responsibility of station 
licensees to maintain control over the stations licensed to them (including all 
transmitter units thereof), or for the proper functioning and operation of 
those stations and transmitter units in accordance with the terms of the 
licenses of those stations.

  (b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with §90.417, no person 
shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the 
transmitter is not authorized.

  and:

  § 90.417 Interstation communication.
  top 
  (a) Any station licensed under this part may communicate with any other 
station without restriction as to type, service, or licensee when the 
communications involved relate directly to the imminent safety-of-life or 
property.

  (b) Any station licensed under this part may communicate with any other 
station licensed under this part, with U.S. Government stations, and with 
foreign stations, in connection with mutual activities, provided that where the 
communication involves foreign stations prior approval of the Commission must 
be obtained, and such communication must be permitted by the government that 
authorizes the foreign station. Communications by Public Safety Pool eligibles 
with foreign stations will be approved only to be conducted in accordance with 
Article 5 of the Inter-American Radio Agreement, Washington, DC, 1949, the 
provisions of which are set forth in §90.20(b). 

  [43 FR 54791, Nov. 22, 1978, as amended at 62 FR 18933, Apr. 17, 1997]

  ---end of CFR regs---

  So, what's to stop someone from saying they programmed a freq for 
emergency use only? Why else have the exception, unless you are expected to 
have an "unauthorized" frequency programed in your radio?

  So, the exception (90.417) clearly makes 90.427 un-enforceable UNLESS you 
can prove intent to operate on the "unauthorized" frequency for NON-emergency 
communications. The school was operating on the frequency, but they don't say 
what kind of communication was involved.

  --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, wd8chl  wrote:
  >
  > In February, a large two-way radio dealer was issued a Notice Of 
  > Violation (NOV) by the FCC for adding a frequency into radios that the 
  > customer was not licensed for. The Notice stated

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[Ken Arck]

Back when I owned a strictly 2-way shop, we used to sell radios to 
local LEOs, programmed on the PD's channels all the time. Of course, 
the local Batwing MSS didn't like us doing that (we sold a competing 
brand) and got the C.O.P to write us a letter telling us how what we 
were doing was illegal (the claim was that we can't sell radios 
programmed on PD channels). This was during the late 80's and through 
most of the 90's.

I wrote the C.O.P. back, explaining that it was perfectly legal for 
me to sell radios programmed on ANY frequency I wanted to ANYone. But 
of course, being the responsible member of the community that I am, I 
would only sell such programmed radios to authorized personnel only. 
We never had another bit of complaints from the PD although the MSS 
didn't like us one bit (too bad - I made a career out of tweaking the Big M).

My how times have changed

Ken
--
President and CTO - Arcom Communications
Makers of repeater controllers and accessories.
http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/
Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and
we offer complete repeater packages!
AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000
http://www.irlp.net
"We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[Nate Duehr]

On 4/29/2010 11:20 AM, dmur...@verizon.net wrote:


You would go to Jail.

Apr 29, 2010 05:11:58 PM, Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
 wrote:


So if I had a UHF Saber, and programmed it to a Police frequency for 
the purposes of TX EMERGENCY info only like 911, then its required to 
have authorization? What if I was involved in a wreck and my radio was 
the only thing in reach over my cell?


John Hymes
La Rue Communications
10 S. Aurora Street
Stockton, CA 95202
http://tinyurl.com/2dtngmn 



Hey, that works...

On the way to jail they'd get you medical attention and patch ya all up 
from the accident...


LOL!  Oh happy day!

Nate WY0X

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[David A. Behar]

Actually, here is the link for this specific case: 
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-296584A1.pdf.

NOV was issued to Bearcom.  The client was Wal-Mart.  Interestingly, other 
Wal-Mart locations had been licensed for this freq of 151.955, but not this 
location.

Wal-Mart was fined; see 
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-295384A1.pdf.

David/K7DB
  - Original Message - 
  From: wd8chl 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:30 AM
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers



  arggh: after digging, here's the link to the actual NOV:
  http://www.fcc.gov/eb/FieldNotices/2003/DOC-296584A1.html

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[Richard Fletcher]

 J. C. and the rest.

 Yes I am going to say this because it seems to have been missed. When John 
asked is there a "frequency monitored by law enforcement" And to JC who said he 
"going to use any frequency that I have to get help" (Not to bright of a 
statement there JC, from where do you get this grand sense of entitlement 
anyway?) You guys do know that in the US there is still available "CB Radio" 
Right? Chanel 9 used to be monitored prior to Cellular and  there on the 40 CB 
channels  you can "Legally" communicate to your hearts content. As well as on 
the FRS devices. And with the flood of cell phones out there now, the CB Band 
is very clear. Now I do have radio equipment capable of almost any freq out 
there, but since I am not licensed on it I would not even concede transmitting 
on it. Only exception where I did was when I was at a GE Radio shop from 1980 
to 1995 where I would call in to the PD and Fire Dispatcher (And government 
bands) to confirm transmission. and
 all was done professionally while in maintaining of that agency's radio 
equipment. 
 I find it quite strange that any Ham (if you actually are one) would think 
that just because you have a radio capable of transmitting anywhere would think 
that he was entitled to do so. And no I am not a Ham, but I do listen! I am 
license on GMRS, and most folks there are in some cases more professional than 
that of some of the childish HAM conversations I have heard (usually on simplex 
freqs)

 Now I bet this will get things stirred up now won't they?

Richard 

 




From: J C 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, May 1, 2010 12:30:08 AM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

  
If my life is in danger, I am going to use any frequency that I have to get 
help. I don't care if it is a remote broadcast link frequency for a radio 
station! But that's me.

--- In Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com, "La Rue Communications"  wrote:
>
> I forgot to add something, kind of crucial to my point at the end back 
> there. if my life was in jeopardy then. Is there a frequency that Law 
> Enforcement monitors for non emergency situations? For the public sector? Or 
> would it be any officer who knows how to build their own scanners? Let me 
> reclarify - if I was in an accident, and my radio was in reach over my cell 
> (i.e. my cell was in my pocket, or got knocked under the seat), and I had a 
> life threatening injury, what kind of response would that evoke?
> 
> John Hymes
> La Rue Communications
> 10 S. Aurora Street
> Stockton, CA 95202
> http://tinyurl. com/2dtngmn
> - Original Message - 
> From: Maire-Radios 
> To: Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com 
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you should not even think of doing that.
> 
> 
> - Original Message ----- 
> From: La Rue Communications 
> To: Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com 
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 1:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if I had a UHF Saber, and programmed it to a Police frequency for the 
> purposes of TX EMERGENCY info only like 911, then its required to have 
> authorization? What if I was involved in a wreck and my radio was the only 
> thing in reach over my cell?
> 
> John Hymes
> La Rue Communications
> 10 S. Aurora Street
> Stockton, CA 95202
> http://tinyurl. com/2dtngmn
> - Original Message - 
> From: kd6aaj 
> To: Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com 
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:58 AM
> Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Strange, considering the GMRS can come with radios you buy, before you even 
> have the license. I guess you have to be one of the BIG boys to sell radios 
> preprogrammed with those freqs.
> 
> and there is an EXCEPTION:
> 
> Title 47: Telecommunication
> PART 90-PRIVATE LAND MOBILE RADIO SERVICES
> Subpart N-Operating Requirements
> 
> § 90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.
> (a) Each transmitter shall be so installed and protected that it is not 
> accessible to or capable of operation by persons other than those duly 
> authorized by and under the control of the licensee. Provisions of this part 
> authorizing certain unlicensed persons to operate stations, or authorizing 
> unattended operation of stations in certain circumstances, shall not be 
> construed to change or diminish in any respect the responsibility of station 
> licensees to maintain control over the stations licensed to them (including 
> all transmitter 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[AARON LEWIS DINKIN]

I thought the FCC rules say during an emergency with immediate threat to
life and property you may use any means at your disposal considering good
operating practices and as long as there are no FCC imposed communication
 restrictions you may use any frequency that you would be most likely to
elicit help.

Paraphrased of course!

On May 1, 2010, at 8:47 AM, Richard Fletcher  wrote:



 J. C. and the rest.

 Yes I am going to say this because it seems to have been missed. When John
asked is there a "frequency monitored by law enforcement" And to JC who said
he "going to use any frequency that I have to get help" (Not to bright of a
statement there JC, from where do you get this grand sense of entitlement
anyway?) You guys do know that in the US there is still available "CB Radio"
Right? Chanel 9 used to be monitored prior to Cellular and  there on the 40
CB channels  you can "Legally" communicate to your hearts content. As well
as on the FRS devices. And with the flood of cell phones out there now, the
CB Band is very clear. Now I do have radio equipment capable of almost any
freq out there, but since I am not licensed on it I would not even concede
transmitting on it. Only exception where I did was when I was at a GE Radio
shop from 1980 to 1995 where I would call in to the PD and Fire Dispatcher
(And government bands) to confirm transmission. and all was done
professionally while in maintaining of that agency's radio equipment.
 I find it quite strange that any Ham (if you actually are one) would think
that just because you have a radio capable of transmitting anywhere would
think that he was entitled to do so. And no I am not a Ham, but I do listen!
I am license on GMRS, and most folks there are in some cases more
professional than that of some of the childish HAM conversations I have
heard (usually on simplex freqs)

 Now I bet this will get things stirred up now won't they?

Richard



 --
*From:* J C 
*To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Sat, May 1, 2010 12:30:08 AM
*Subject:* [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers



If my life is in danger, I am going to use any frequency that I have to get
help. I don't care if it is a remote broadcast link frequency for a radio
station! But that's me.

--- In Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com,
"La Rue Communications"  wrote:
>
> I forgot to add something, kind of crucial to my point at the end back
there. if my life was in jeopardy then. Is there a frequency that Law
Enforcement monitors for non emergency situations? For the public sector? Or
would it be any officer who knows how to build their own scanners? Let me
reclarify - if I was in an accident, and my radio was in reach over my cell
(i.e. my cell was in my pocket, or got knocked under the seat), and I had a
life threatening injury, what kind of response would that evoke?
>
> John Hymes
> La Rue Communications
> 10 S. Aurora Street
> Stockton, CA 95202
> http://tinyurl. com/2dtngmn <http://tinyurl.com/2dtngmn>
> - Original Message -
> From: Maire-Radios
> To: Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
>
>
>
>
> you should not even think of doing that.
>
>
> - Original Message -----
> From: La Rue Communications
> To: Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 1:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
>
>
>
>
> So if I had a UHF Saber, and programmed it to a Police frequency for the
purposes of TX EMERGENCY info only like 911, then its required to have
authorization? What if I was involved in a wreck and my radio was the only
thing in reach over my cell?
>
> John Hymes
> La Rue Communications
> 10 S. Aurora Street
> Stockton, CA 95202
> http://tinyurl. com/2dtngmn <http://tinyurl.com/2dtngmn>
> - Original Message -
> From: kd6aaj
> To: Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:58 AM
> Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
>
>
>
>
>
> Strange, considering the GMRS can come with radios you buy, before you
even have the license. I guess you have to be one of the BIG boys to sell
radios preprogrammed with those freqs.
>
> and there is an EXCEPTION:
>
> Title 47: Telecommunication
> PART 90-PRIVATE LAND MOBILE RADIO SERVICES
> Subpart N-Operating Requirements
>
> § 90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.
> (a) Each transmitter shall be so installed and protected that it is not
accessible to or capable of operation by persons other than those duly
authorized by and under the control of the licensee. Provisions of this part
authorizing 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[AA8K73 GMail]

Some try to develop scenarios that justify enabling transmit 
capability for Public Safety frequencies.

An intruder on law enforcement frequencies may be ignored as a 
false distress call as they begin intruder procedures.

As noted before, law enforcement is quite territorial about 
their communications channel.  In Michigan you will not be 
treated well if your vehicle can transmit on their channel.  I 
witnessed one ham who was pulled over when he was transmitting 
on amateur radio and the nearby patrol car's scanner had 
front-end overload.  Fortunately, he was able to avoid citations 
and impound, but was delayed substantially.

What will you say when an law enforcement person looks in your 
vehicle and says, "What's that radio?  Does it receive or 
transmit on police frequencies?"


Mike - AA8K


Richard Fletcher wrote:
>  
> 
>  J. C. and the rest.
>  
>  Yes I am going to say this because it seems to have been missed. When 
> John asked is there a "frequency monitored by law enforcement" And to JC 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[Paul Holm]

You mean during a traffic stop? or incidental chit-chat?  I'm assuming you 
mean during a stop.

Here in Minnesota I would politely hand him the copies of our state's 
'scanner law' that exempts Hams and of my FCC license that I keep in my 
glovebox.  And then be ready to wish him a good day when he realizes he has 
absolutely nothing to say under the law about any of the type accepted, 
unmodified radio equipment I have in my vehicle.


Paul - KC0HST



- Original Message - 
From: "AA8K73 GMail"
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers


>
>
> What will you say when an law enforcement person looks in your
> vehicle and says, "What's that radio?  Does it receive or
> transmit on police frequencies?"
>
>
> Mike - AA8K

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[Matthew Kaufman]

AARON LEWIS DINKIN wrote:
>
>
> I thought the FCC rules say during an emergency with immediate threat 
> to life and property you may use any means at your disposal 
> considering good operating practices and as long as there are no FCC 
> imposed communication  restrictions you may use any frequency that you 
> would be most likely to elicit help.  
Exactly. And while fire department channels, particularly fire 
department mutual aid channels, are likely places to find help... as is 
marine channel 16 if you're in a place where that is monitored,... 
police channels most definitely are not.

Not because you won't be heard, but because you'll either be carefully 
ignored or heard, but arrested, no matter what federal law says.

Matthew Kaufman

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[Brian Raker]

§97.111 Authorized transmissions.
(a) An amateur station may transmit the following types of two-way
communications:
...
  (3) Transmissions necessary to exchange messages with a station in another
FCC-regulated service while providing emergency communications;

Yes, we are allowed to do so only while providing emergency communications.
It's up to us to determine (hopefully with a good helping of common sense)
what is an emergency.

-Brian

On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Richard Fletcher wrote:

>
>
>  J. C. and the rest.
>
>  Yes I am going to say this because it seems to have been missed. When John
> asked is there a "frequency monitored by law enforcement" And to JC who said
> he "going to use any frequency that I have to get help" (Not to bright of a
> statement there JC, from where do you get this grand sense of entitlement
> anyway?) You guys do know that in the US there is still available "CB Radio"
> Right? Chanel 9 used to be monitored prior to Cellular and  there on the 40
> CB channels  you can "Legally" communicate to your hearts content. As well
> as on the FRS devices. And with the flood of cell phones out there now, the
> CB Band is very clear. Now I do have radio equipment capable of almost any
> freq out there, but since I am not licensed on it I would not even concede
> transmitting on it. Only exception where I did was when I was at a GE Radio
> shop from 1980 to 1995 where I would call in to the PD and Fire Dispatcher
> (And government bands) to confirm transmission. and all was done
> professionally while in maintaining of that agency's radio equipment.
>  I find it quite strange that any Ham (if you actually are one) would think
> that just because you have a radio capable of transmitting anywhere would
> think that he was entitled to do so. And no I am not a Ham, but I do listen!
> I am license on GMRS, and most folks there are in some cases more
> professional than that of some of the childish HAM conversations I have
> heard (usually on simplex freqs)
>
>  Now I bet this will get things stirred up now won't they?
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>  ----------------------
> *From:* J C 
>
> *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> *Sent:* Sat, May 1, 2010 12:30:08 AM
>
> *Subject:* [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
>
>
>
> If my life is in danger, I am going to use any frequency that I have to get
> help. I don't care if it is a remote broadcast link frequency for a radio
> station! But that's me.
>
> --- In Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com,
> "La Rue Communications"  wrote:
> >
> > I forgot to add something, kind of crucial to my point at the end back
> there. if my life was in jeopardy then. Is there a frequency that Law
> Enforcement monitors for non emergency situations? For the public sector? Or
> would it be any officer who knows how to build their own scanners? Let me
> reclarify - if I was in an accident, and my radio was in reach over my cell
> (i.e. my cell was in my pocket, or got knocked under the seat), and I had a
> life threatening injury, what kind of response would that evoke?
> >
> > John Hymes
> > La Rue Communications
> > 10 S. Aurora Street
> > Stockton, CA 95202
> > http://tinyurl. com/2dtngmn <http://tinyurl.com/2dtngmn>
> > - Original Message -
> > From: Maire-Radios
> > To: Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:30 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio
> Dealers
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > you should not even think of doing that.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: La Rue Communications
> > To: Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 1:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio
> Dealers
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > So if I had a UHF Saber, and programmed it to a Police frequency for the
> purposes of TX EMERGENCY info only like 911, then its required to have
> authorization? What if I was involved in a wreck and my radio was the only
> thing in reach over my cell?
> >
> > John Hymes
> > La Rue Communications
> > 10 S. Aurora Street
> > Stockton, CA 95202
> > http://tinyurl. com/2dtngmn <http://tinyurl.com/2dtngmn>
> > - Original Message -
> > From: kd6aaj
> > To: Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:58 AM
> > Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Strange, 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[Matthew Kaufman]

Brian Raker wrote:
>
>
> §97.111 Authorized transmissions.
> (a) An amateur station may transmit the following types of two-way 
> communications:
> ...
>   (3) Transmissions necessary to exchange messages with a station in 
> another
> FCC-regulated service while providing emergency communications;
>
> Yes, we are allowed to do so only while providing emergency 
> communications.  It's up to us to determine (hopefully with a good 
> helping of common sense) what is an emergency.
Actually that's pretty easy. See 97.403 and 97.405.

Matthew Kaufman

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[Mike Besemer (WM4B)]

Kinda wandering off repeaters here, aren’t we?

 

Mike

WM4B

 

From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 3:06 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

 

  

Brian Raker wrote:
>
>
> §97.111 Authorized transmissions.
> (a) An amateur station may transmit the following types of two-way 
> communications:
> ...
> (3) Transmissions necessary to exchange messages with a station in 
> another
> FCC-regulated service while providing emergency communications;
>
> Yes, we are allowed to do so only while providing emergency 
> communications. It's up to us to determine (hopefully with a good 
> helping of common sense) what is an emergency.
Actually that's pretty easy. See 97.403 and 97.405.

Matthew Kaufman

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[Kris Kirby]

On Sat, 1 May 2010, Mike Besemer (WM4B) wrote:
> Kinda wandering off repeaters here, aren?t we?
> 
> Brian Raker wrote:
> >
> >
> > ?97.111 Authorized transmissions.
> > (a) An amateur station may transmit the following types of two-way
> > communications:
> > ...
> > (3) Transmissions necessary to exchange messages with a station in
> > another
> > FCC-regulated service while providing emergency communications;
> >
> > Yes, we are allowed to do so only while providing emergency
> > communications. It's up to us to determine (hopefully with a good
> > helping of common sense) what is an emergency.
> Actually that's pretty easy. See 97.403 and 97.405.

We're way, wy off-topic.

--
Kris Kirby, KE4AHR
Disinformation Analyst

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[Eric Lowell]

Seems like that happened a while ago. 
 Eric Lowell
Eastern Maine Electronics Inc.
48 Loon Road
Wesley ME 04686
eme@starband.net
www.satnetmaine.com
207-210-7469 





From: Mike Besemer (WM4B) 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, May 1, 2010 3:17:16 PM
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

  
Kinda wandering off repeaters here, aren’t we?
 
Mike
WM4B
 
From:Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogro 
ups.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 3:06 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
 
  
Brian Raker wrote:
>
>
> §97.111 Authorized transmissions.
> (a) An amateur station may transmit the following types of two-way 
> communications:
> ...
> (3) Transmissions necessary to exchange messages with a station in 
> another
> FCC-regulated service while providing emergency communications;
>
> Yes, we are allowed to do so only while providing emergency 
> communications. It's up to us to determine (hopefully with a good 
> helping of common sense) what is an emergency.
Actually that's pretty easy. See 97.403 and 97.405.

Matthew Kaufman



  

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[Butch Kanvick]

I would think that law enforcement would need to have a search warrant to check 
the radio to see if it transmits on the law enforcement frequencies. I would 
also say they are over stepping the legal boundaries if they asked if the radio 
could transmit on law enforcement frequencies. Which frequencies would they be 
talking about, low band,vhf, uhf and 800 meg?

As a volunteer fire fighter I have several law enforcement channels included in 
the radios as back ups for emergency operations if the fire repeaters do not 
work. As we need to have constant communications with the dispatch center. We 
have used them before when we were out of range of the fire repeaters. A few 
people have used them for primary communications when they could not reach 911 
in an emergency, so we were covered and dispatch was happy to receive timely 
updates as the situation changed before law enforcement arrived.

Have a wonderful day, Butch, KE7FEL/r



 


To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
From: p...@chargertech.com
Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 10:07:06 -0500
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

  



You mean during a traffic stop? or incidental chit-chat? I'm assuming you 
mean during a stop.

Here in Minnesota I would politely hand him the copies of our state's 
'scanner law' that exempts Hams and of my FCC license that I keep in my 
glovebox. And then be ready to wish him a good day when he realizes he has 
absolutely nothing to say under the law about any of the type accepted, 
unmodified radio equipment I have in my vehicle.

Paul - KC0HST

- Original Message - 
From: "AA8K73 GMail"
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

>
>
> What will you say when an law enforcement person looks in your
> vehicle and says, "What's that radio? Does it receive or
> transmit on police frequencies?"
>
>
> Mike - AA8K




  
_
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inbox.
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[MCH]

I would submit that the FCC has claimed enforcement over radio 
transmissions in the USA, and that's in the radio is not relevant since 
it's out of his jurisdiction unless he wants to represent himself as a 
federal officer. Of course, this is not the proper attitude to present, 
but it is factually accurate.

BTW, since the 80s, the FCC's enforcement has maintained that it's the 
*end user's* responsibility to ensure licensing, not the programmer's. 
It's sad to see this interpretation reversing itself, as many times, and 
as I bet is the case here, the radios were programmed for an entity that 
has multiple licenses on the frequency in question, and it should not be 
the programmer's job to interrogate as to *where* the radios will be 
used. I bet they simply programmed them for Wal*Mart, a licensee, not 
for that specific store. It should be strictly Wal*Mart's responsibility 
to ensure that location is licensed properly. (and why would they not 
have a nationwide license in the first place?)

Back to repeaters anytime soon?

Joe M.

Butch Kanvick wrote:
> 
> 
> I would think that law enforcement would need to have a search warrant 
> to check the radio to see if it transmits on the law enforcement 
> frequencies. I would also say they are over stepping the legal 
> boundaries if they asked if the radio could transmit on law enforcement 
> frequencies. Which frequencies would they be talking about, low 
> band,vhf, uhf and 800 meg?
> As a volunteer fire fighter I have several law enforcement channels 
> included in the radios as back ups for emergency operations if the fire 
> repeaters do not work. As we need to have constant communications with 
> the dispatch center. We have used them before when we were out of range 
> of the fire repeaters. A few people have used them for primary 
> communications when they could not reach 911 in an emergency, so we were 
> covered and dispatch was happy to receive timely updates as the 
> situation changed before law enforcement arrived.
> 
> Have a wonderful day, Butch, KE7FEL/r
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> From: p...@chargertech.com
> Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 10:07:06 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
> 
>  
> You mean during a traffic stop? or incidental chit-chat? I'm assuming you
> mean during a stop.
> 
> Here in Minnesota I would politely hand him the copies of our state's
> 'scanner law' that exempts Hams and of my FCC license that I keep in my
> glovebox. And then be ready to wish him a good day when he realizes he has
> absolutely nothing to say under the law about any of the type accepted,
> unmodified radio equipment I have in my vehicle.
> 
> Paul - KC0HST
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "AA8K73 GMail"
> Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 8:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
> 
>  >
>  >
>  > What will you say when an law enforcement person looks in your
>  > vehicle and says, "What's that radio? Does it receive or
>  > transmit on police frequencies?"
>  >
>  >
>  > Mike - AA8K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from 
> your inbox. See how. 
> <http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2>
>  
> 
> 
> 






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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[Richard]

This has come up before, and I've also seen it come up in other groups. The
"anything goes in an emergency" crowd cannot be convinced that there are
virtually always consequences for their proposed actions, no matter what the
FCC says.
 
Hopefully the thread will die out soon; in the meantime some of the opinions
expressed are pretty funny.

Richard
www.n7tgb.net
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's
money
--Margaret Thatcher


 

  _  

From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Besemer (WM4B)
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 12:17 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers


  


Kinda wandering off repeaters here, aren’t we?

Mike

WM4B

From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Kaufman
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 3:06 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

  

Brian Raker wrote:
>
>
> §97.111 Authorized transmissions.
> (a) An amateur station may transmit the following types of two-way 
> communications:
> ...
> (3) Transmissions necessary to exchange messages with a station in 
> another
> FCC-regulated service while providing emergency communications;
>
> Yes, we are allowed to do so only while providing emergency 
> communications. It's up to us to determine (hopefully with a good 
> helping of common sense) what is an emergency.
Actually that's pretty easy. See 97.403 and 97.405.

Matthew Kaufman

Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[dmurman]

You would go to Jail.




Apr 29, 2010 05:11:58 PM, Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com wrote:

  




So if I had a UHF Saber, and programmed it to a Police frequency for the 
purposes of TX EMERGENCY info only like 911, then its required to have 
authorization? What if I was involved in a wreck and my radio was the only 
thing in reach over my cell?
 
John Hymes
La Rue Communications
10 S. Aurora Street
Stockton, CA 95202
http://tinyurl.com/2dtngmn

- Original Message - 
From: kd6aaj 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:58 AM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers
  


Strange, considering the GMRS can come with radios you buy, before you even 
have the license. I guess you have to be one of the BIG boys to sell radios 
preprogrammed with those freqs.

and there is an EXCEPTION:

Title 47: Telecommunication
PART 90—PRIVATE LAND MOBILE RADIO SERVICES
Subpart N—Operating Requirements

§ 90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.
(a) Each transmitter shall be so installed and protected that it is not 
accessible to or capable of operation by persons other than those duly 
authorized by and under the control of the licensee. Provisions of this part 
authorizing certain unlicensed persons to operate stations, or authorizing 
unattended operation of stations in certain circumstances, shall not be 
construed to change or diminish in any respect the responsibility of station 
licensees to maintain control over the stations licensed to them (including all 
transmitter units thereof), or for the proper functioning and operation of 
those stations and transmitter units in accordance with the terms of the 
licenses of those stations.

(b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with §90.417, no person shall 
program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the 
transmitter is not authorized.

and:

§ 90.417 Interstation communication.
top 
(a) Any station licensed under this part may communicate with any other station 
without restriction as to type, service, or licensee when the communications 
involved relate directly to the imminent safety-of-life or property.

(b) Any station licensed under this part may communicate with any other station 
licensed under this part, with U.S. Government stations, and with foreign 
stations, in connection with mutual activities, provided that where the 
communication involves foreign stations prior approval of the Commission must 
be obtained, and such communication must be permitted by the government that 
authorizes the foreign station. Communications by Public Safety Pool eligibles 
with foreign stations will be approved only to be conducted in accordance with 
Article 5 of the Inter-American Radio Agreement, Washington, DC, 1949, the 
provisions of which are set forth in §90.20(b). 

[43 FR 54791, Nov. 22, 1978, as amended at 62 FR 18933, Apr. 17, 1997]

---end of CFR regs---

So, what's to stop someone from saying they programmed a freq for emergency use 
only? Why else have the exception, unless you are expected to have an 
"unauthorized" frequency programed in your radio?

So, the exception (90.417) clearly makes 90.427 un-enforceable UNLESS you can 
prove intent to operate on the "unauthorized" frequency for NON-emergency 
communications. The school was operating on the frequency, but they don't say 
what kind of communication was involved.

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, wd8chl wrote:
>
> In February, a large two-way radio dealer was issued a Notice Of 
> Violation (NOV) by the FCC for adding a frequency into radios that the 
> customer was not licensed for. The Notice stated that Section 90.427(b) 
> prohibits programming into a transmitter frequencies the licensee using 
> the transmitter is not authorized for.
> 
> Make sure your customers are licensed for the frequencies you put in 
> radios you sell!
> 
> Information from Mission Critical Magazine, May 2010. FCC enforcement 
> case NOV 20103298.
> -
> Jim Barbour
> Transcore
>

Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: A warning to Land Mobile Radio Dealers

[Kris Kirby]

> > So if I had a UHF Saber, and programmed it to a Police frequency for
> > the purposes of TX EMERGENCY info only like 911, then its required 
> > to have authorization? What if I was involved in a wreck and my 
> > radio was the only thing in reach over my cell?

On Thu, 29 Apr 2010, dmur...@verizon.net wrote:
> You would go to Jail.

Well, if it's your personal radio, that's between you and the FCC. 
However, keep in mind that your radio doesn't transmit your location 
like a cellphone does when you dial 911. 

I still wouldn't touch the button to TX unless you're certain you're 
bleeding out, or will otherwise expire in ten minutes without emergency 
medical care. 

For a customer? I wouldn't risk my business like that. If they can't 
show a letter from the licensee permitting them access to the system, 
and such access can't be verified with a phone call, no-go. Tell the 
vollies to stick to a scanner. 

--
Kris Kirby, KE4AHR
Disinformation Analyst