Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[dIon Gillard]

Edward Q. Bridges wrote:

>"location independence" means independent of location, that is all. 
>
>if you're implementing two interfaces to do (more or less) the exact same 
>thing, and one is called "local" and one is called "remote" that is 
>absolutely *not*, by any stretch of the imagination,  "location 
>independent". _end of story_.
>
So don't implement the local interface...

>
>with EJBs the method call does not "appear" to be remote, because it is 
>*explicitly* remote.  the method is in a "RemoteInterface" and throws a 
>"RemoteException" for crying out loud!
>
It may not be a 'remote' vm processing the request, it can all still be 
one vm.

>
>furthermore, it's not about box1 vs box12.  to be more precise, it's about 
>vm1 vs. vm12.  and, if you are writing a client, your client has business 
>logic to take care of.  it's the servers responsibility to determine 
>whether it should call a method at vm1 or at vm12.
>
>IMNSHO, this is the achilles heel of EJB.
>
Which part? That's not real clear. The client doesn't have to give a 
toss whether it's local or remote. It can always use the remote 
interface and look the object up.

>--e--
>
>On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:24:22 +1100, dIon Gillard wrote:
>
>>The method call can take place anywhere, but always appears to be 
>>remote. That could be many remote machines though. Location independence 
>>is not about local vs remote, it's more about box1 vs box12.
>>
-- 
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
http://www.multitask.com.au/developers




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Re: BEER = GOOD : EJB = bad = MS.net

[Edward Q. Bridges]

ok, i promise i will:
  1. stop using obscure, hairy acronyms.
  2. cease and desist from OT EJB references (oops! there i go, i broke #1.  
no more.  i promise!).
  3. drink at *least* one beer.

:)

i hope you all had a fine weekend!

--e--



On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:09:58 -0800, Eugene Neymark wrote:

>>> IMNSHO = In My Not So Humble Opinion




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BEER = GOOD : EJB = bad = MS.net

[Eugene Neymark]

- Original Message -
From: "Malcolm Davis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 12:19 PM
Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net


> I think I was better off not sending that last email,
> especially on a Friday.  :)
> Thanks for education.
>
> - Malcolm
>
>   >> -Original Message-
>   >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>   >> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 2:09 PM
>   >> To: Struts Users Mailing List
>   >> Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
>   >>
>   >>
>   >> TGIF
>   >> - Original Message -
>   >> From: "Cakalic, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   >> To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'"
>   >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   >> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 2:02 PM
>   >> Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
>   >>
>   >>
>   >> >
>   >> > == Rolling on the floor laughing my ass off
>   >> >
>   >> > > -Original Message-
>   >> > > From: Galbreath, Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>   >> > > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:57 PM
>   >> > > To: 'Wes Bramhall '; ''Struts Users Mailing List' '
>   >> > > Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
>   >> > >
>   >> > >
>   >> > >  ROTFLMAO!
>   >> > >
>   >> > > Mark
>   >> > >
>   >> > > -Original Message-
>   >> > > From: Wes Bramhall
>   >> > > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
>   >> > > Sent: 2/22/02 2:52 PM
>   >> > > Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
>   >> > >
>   >> > > But it's Friday now, so SSS is allowed, right?
>   >> > >
>   >> > > (SSS = Small Scale Spamming)
>   >> > >
>   >> > > -Original Message-
>   >> > > From: Eddie Bush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>   >> > > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:45 PM
>   >> > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
>   >> > > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
>   >> > >
>   >> > >
>   >> > > I thought we had abandoned this thread in
>   >> favor of Struts related
>   >> > > questions
>   >> > > =)
>   >> > >
>   >> > > - Original Message -
>   >> > > From: "David Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   >> > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
>   >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   >> > > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:41 PM
>   >> > > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
>   >> > >
>   >> > >
>   >> > > > I'm staying out of this discussion, but
>   >> to answer your question --
>   >> > > >
>   >> > > > IMNSHO = In My Not So Humble Opinion
>   >> > > >
>   >> > > > --David
>   >> > > >
>   >> > > > On Friday 22 February 2002 01:03 pm, you wrote:
>   >> > > > > IMNSHO?  What the hell is that?  Man,
>   >> the colloquial shortcuts are
>   >> > > getting
>   >> > > > > hairy these days :)
>   >> > > > >
>   >> > > > > -Original Message-
>   >> > > > > From: Edward Q. Bridges
>   >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>   >> > > > > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:15 AM
>   >> > > > > To: dIon Gillard; Struts Users Mailing List
>   >> > > > > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
>   >> > > > >
>   >> > > > >
>   >> > > > > "location independence" means
>   >> independent of location,
>   >> > > that is all.
>   >> > > > >
>   >> > > > > if you're implementing two interfaces
>   >> to do (more or
>   >> > > less) the exact
>   >> > > same
>   >> > > > > thing, and one is called "local" and
>   >> one is called
>   >> > > "remote" that is
>   >> > > > > absolutely *not*, by any stretch of
>   >> the imagination,  "location
>   >> > > > > 

RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Malcolm Davis]

I think I was better off not sending that last email,
especially on a Friday.  :)
Thanks for education…

- Malcolm

  >> -Original Message-
  >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  >> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 2:09 PM
  >> To: Struts Users Mailing List
  >> Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
  >>
  >>
  >> TGIF
  >> - Original Message -
  >> From: "Cakalic, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  >> To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'"
  >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  >> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 2:02 PM
  >> Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
  >>
  >>
  >> >
  >> > == Rolling on the floor laughing my ass off
  >> >
  >> > > -Original Message-
  >> > > From: Galbreath, Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  >> > > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:57 PM
  >> > > To: 'Wes Bramhall '; ''Struts Users Mailing List' '
  >> > > Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
  >> > >
  >> > >
  >> > >  ROTFLMAO!
  >> > >
  >> > > Mark
  >> > >
  >> > > -Original Message-
  >> > > From: Wes Bramhall
  >> > > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
  >> > > Sent: 2/22/02 2:52 PM
  >> > > Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
  >> > >
  >> > > But it's Friday now, so SSS is allowed, right?
  >> > >
  >> > > (SSS = Small Scale Spamming)
  >> > >
  >> > > -Original Message-
  >> > > From: Eddie Bush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  >> > > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:45 PM
  >> > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
  >> > > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
  >> > >
  >> > >
  >> > > I thought we had abandoned this thread in
  >> favor of Struts related
  >> > > questions
  >> > > =)
  >> > >
  >> > > - Original Message -
  >> > > From: "David Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  >> > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  >> > > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:41 PM
  >> > > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
  >> > >
  >> > >
  >> > > > I'm staying out of this discussion, but
  >> to answer your question --
  >> > > >
  >> > > > IMNSHO = In My Not So Humble Opinion
  >> > > >
  >> > > > --David
  >> > > >
  >> > > > On Friday 22 February 2002 01:03 pm, you wrote:
  >> > > > > IMNSHO?  What the hell is that?  Man,
  >> the colloquial shortcuts are
  >> > > getting
  >> > > > > hairy these days :)
  >> > > > >
  >> > > > > -Original Message-
  >> > > > > From: Edward Q. Bridges
  >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  >> > > > > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:15 AM
  >> > > > > To: dIon Gillard; Struts Users Mailing List
  >> > > > > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
  >> > > > >
  >> > > > >
  >> > > > > "location independence" means
  >> independent of location,
  >> > > that is all.
  >> > > > >
  >> > > > > if you're implementing two interfaces
  >> to do (more or
  >> > > less) the exact
  >> > > same
  >> > > > > thing, and one is called "local" and
  >> one is called
  >> > > "remote" that is
  >> > > > > absolutely *not*, by any stretch of
  >> the imagination,  "location
  >> > > > > independent". _end of story_.
  >> > > > >
  >> > > > > with EJBs the method call does not
  >> "appear" to be remote,
  >> > > because it
  >> > > is
  >> > > > > *explicitly* remote.  the method is in
  >> a "RemoteInterface" and
  >> > > throws a
  >> > > > > "RemoteException" for crying out loud!
  >> > > > >
  >> > > > > furthermore, it's not about box1 vs
  >> box12.  to be more
  >> > > precise, it's
  >> > > about
  >> > > > > vm1 vs. vm12.  and, if you are writing
  >> a client, your c

Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Bob Williams]

TGIF
- Original Message - 
From: "Cakalic, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 2:02 PM
Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net


> 
> == Rolling on the floor laughing my ass off
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Galbreath, Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:57 PM
> > To: 'Wes Bramhall '; ''Struts Users Mailing List' '
> > Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > 
> > 
> >  ROTFLMAO!
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wes Bramhall
> > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > Sent: 2/22/02 2:52 PM
> > Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > 
> > But it's Friday now, so SSS is allowed, right?
> > 
> > (SSS = Small Scale Spamming)
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Eddie Bush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:45 PM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > 
> > 
> > I thought we had abandoned this thread in favor of Struts related
> > questions
> > =)
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "David Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > 
> > 
> > > I'm staying out of this discussion, but to answer your question --
> > >
> > > IMNSHO = In My Not So Humble Opinion
> > >
> > > --David
> > >
> > > On Friday 22 February 2002 01:03 pm, you wrote:
> > > > IMNSHO?  What the hell is that?  Man, the colloquial shortcuts are
> > getting
> > > > hairy these days :)
> > > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Edward Q. Bridges [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:15 AM
> > > > To: dIon Gillard; Struts Users Mailing List
> > > > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "location independence" means independent of location, 
> > that is all.
> > > >
> > > > if you're implementing two interfaces to do (more or 
> > less) the exact
> > same
> > > > thing, and one is called "local" and one is called 
> > "remote" that is
> > > > absolutely *not*, by any stretch of the imagination,  "location
> > > > independent". _end of story_.
> > > >
> > > > with EJBs the method call does not "appear" to be remote, 
> > because it
> > is
> > > > *explicitly* remote.  the method is in a "RemoteInterface" and
> > throws a
> > > > "RemoteException" for crying out loud!
> > > >
> > > > furthermore, it's not about box1 vs box12.  to be more 
> > precise, it's
> > about
> > > > vm1 vs. vm12.  and, if you are writing a client, your client has
> > business
> > > > logic to take care of.  it's the servers responsibility 
> > to determine
> > > > whether it should call a method at vm1 or at vm12.
> > > >
> > > > IMNSHO, this is the achilles heel of EJB.
> > > >
> > > > --e--
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:24:22 +1100, dIon Gillard wrote:
> > > > >The method call can take place anywhere, but always appears to be
> > > > >remote. That could be many remote machines though. Location
> > independence
> > > > >is not about local vs remote, it's more about box1 vs box12.
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> 


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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Eddie Bush]

I believe we all knew that one, James ;)
... but thanks for your clearification none-the-less =)

- Original Message - 
From: "Cakalic, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 2:02 PM
Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net


> == Rolling on the floor laughing my ass off
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Galbreath, Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:57 PM
> > To: 'Wes Bramhall '; ''Struts Users Mailing List' '
> > Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > 
> > 
> >  ROTFLMAO!
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wes Bramhall
> > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > Sent: 2/22/02 2:52 PM
> > Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > 
> > But it's Friday now, so SSS is allowed, right?
> > 
> > (SSS = Small Scale Spamming)
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Eddie Bush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:45 PM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > 
> > 
> > I thought we had abandoned this thread in favor of Struts related
> > questions
> > =)
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "David Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > 
> > 
> > > I'm staying out of this discussion, but to answer your question --
> > >
> > > IMNSHO = In My Not So Humble Opinion
> > >
> > > --David
> > >
> > > On Friday 22 February 2002 01:03 pm, you wrote:
> > > > IMNSHO?  What the hell is that?  Man, the colloquial shortcuts are
> > getting
> > > > hairy these days :)
> > > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Edward Q. Bridges [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:15 AM
> > > > To: dIon Gillard; Struts Users Mailing List
> > > > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "location independence" means independent of location, 
> > that is all.
> > > >
> > > > if you're implementing two interfaces to do (more or 
> > less) the exact
> > same
> > > > thing, and one is called "local" and one is called 
> > "remote" that is
> > > > absolutely *not*, by any stretch of the imagination,  "location
> > > > independent". _end of story_.
> > > >
> > > > with EJBs the method call does not "appear" to be remote, 
> > because it
> > is
> > > > *explicitly* remote.  the method is in a "RemoteInterface" and
> > throws a
> > > > "RemoteException" for crying out loud!
> > > >
> > > > furthermore, it's not about box1 vs box12.  to be more 
> > precise, it's
> > about
> > > > vm1 vs. vm12.  and, if you are writing a client, your client has
> > business
> > > > logic to take care of.  it's the servers responsibility 
> > to determine
> > > > whether it should call a method at vm1 or at vm12.
> > > >
> > > > IMNSHO, this is the achilles heel of EJB.
> > > >
> > > > --e--
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:24:22 +1100, dIon Gillard wrote:
> > > > >The method call can take place anywhere, but always appears to be
> > > > >remote. That could be many remote machines though. Location
> > independence
> > > > >is not about local vs remote, it's more about box1 vs box12.
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> 


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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Cakalic, James]

== Rolling on the floor laughing my ass off

> -Original Message-
> From: Galbreath, Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:57 PM
> To: 'Wes Bramhall '; ''Struts Users Mailing List' '
> Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> 
> 
>  ROTFLMAO!
> 
> Mark
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Wes Bramhall
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Sent: 2/22/02 2:52 PM
> Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> 
> But it's Friday now, so SSS is allowed, right?
> 
> (SSS = Small Scale Spamming)
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Eddie Bush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:45 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> 
> 
> I thought we had abandoned this thread in favor of Struts related
> questions
> =)
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "David Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:41 PM
> Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> 
> 
> > I'm staying out of this discussion, but to answer your question --
> >
> > IMNSHO = In My Not So Humble Opinion
> >
> > --David
> >
> > On Friday 22 February 2002 01:03 pm, you wrote:
> > > IMNSHO?  What the hell is that?  Man, the colloquial shortcuts are
> getting
> > > hairy these days :)
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Edward Q. Bridges [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:15 AM
> > > To: dIon Gillard; Struts Users Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > >
> > >
> > > "location independence" means independent of location, 
> that is all.
> > >
> > > if you're implementing two interfaces to do (more or 
> less) the exact
> same
> > > thing, and one is called "local" and one is called 
> "remote" that is
> > > absolutely *not*, by any stretch of the imagination,  "location
> > > independent". _end of story_.
> > >
> > > with EJBs the method call does not "appear" to be remote, 
> because it
> is
> > > *explicitly* remote.  the method is in a "RemoteInterface" and
> throws a
> > > "RemoteException" for crying out loud!
> > >
> > > furthermore, it's not about box1 vs box12.  to be more 
> precise, it's
> about
> > > vm1 vs. vm12.  and, if you are writing a client, your client has
> business
> > > logic to take care of.  it's the servers responsibility 
> to determine
> > > whether it should call a method at vm1 or at vm12.
> > >
> > > IMNSHO, this is the achilles heel of EJB.
> > >
> > > --e--
> > >
> > > On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:24:22 +1100, dIon Gillard wrote:
> > > >The method call can take place anywhere, but always appears to be
> > > >remote. That could be many remote machines though. Location
> independence
> > > >is not about local vs remote, it's more about box1 vs box12.
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> --
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> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 

RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Galbreath, Mark]

 ROTFLMAO!

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Wes Bramhall
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Sent: 2/22/02 2:52 PM
Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

But it's Friday now, so SSS is allowed, right?

(SSS = Small Scale Spamming)

-Original Message-
From: Eddie Bush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:45 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net


I thought we had abandoned this thread in favor of Struts related
questions
=)

- Original Message -
From: "David Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net


> I'm staying out of this discussion, but to answer your question --
>
> IMNSHO = In My Not So Humble Opinion
>
> --David
>
> On Friday 22 February 2002 01:03 pm, you wrote:
> > IMNSHO?  What the hell is that?  Man, the colloquial shortcuts are
getting
> > hairy these days :)
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Edward Q. Bridges [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:15 AM
> > To: dIon Gillard; Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> >
> >
> > "location independence" means independent of location, that is all.
> >
> > if you're implementing two interfaces to do (more or less) the exact
same
> > thing, and one is called "local" and one is called "remote" that is
> > absolutely *not*, by any stretch of the imagination,  "location
> > independent". _end of story_.
> >
> > with EJBs the method call does not "appear" to be remote, because it
is
> > *explicitly* remote.  the method is in a "RemoteInterface" and
throws a
> > "RemoteException" for crying out loud!
> >
> > furthermore, it's not about box1 vs box12.  to be more precise, it's
about
> > vm1 vs. vm12.  and, if you are writing a client, your client has
business
> > logic to take care of.  it's the servers responsibility to determine
> > whether it should call a method at vm1 or at vm12.
> >
> > IMNSHO, this is the achilles heel of EJB.
> >
> > --e--
> >
> > On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:24:22 +1100, dIon Gillard wrote:
> > >The method call can take place anywhere, but always appears to be
> > >remote. That could be many remote machines though. Location
independence
> > >is not about local vs remote, it's more about box1 vs box12.
>
> --
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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Wes Bramhall]

But it's Friday now, so SSS is allowed, right?

(SSS = Small Scale Spamming)

-Original Message-
From: Eddie Bush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:45 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net


I thought we had abandoned this thread in favor of Struts related questions
=)

- Original Message -
From: "David Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net


> I'm staying out of this discussion, but to answer your question --
>
> IMNSHO = In My Not So Humble Opinion
>
> --David
>
> On Friday 22 February 2002 01:03 pm, you wrote:
> > IMNSHO?  What the hell is that?  Man, the colloquial shortcuts are
getting
> > hairy these days :)
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Edward Q. Bridges [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:15 AM
> > To: dIon Gillard; Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> >
> >
> > "location independence" means independent of location, that is all.
> >
> > if you're implementing two interfaces to do (more or less) the exact
same
> > thing, and one is called "local" and one is called "remote" that is
> > absolutely *not*, by any stretch of the imagination,  "location
> > independent". _end of story_.
> >
> > with EJBs the method call does not "appear" to be remote, because it is
> > *explicitly* remote.  the method is in a "RemoteInterface" and throws a
> > "RemoteException" for crying out loud!
> >
> > furthermore, it's not about box1 vs box12.  to be more precise, it's
about
> > vm1 vs. vm12.  and, if you are writing a client, your client has
business
> > logic to take care of.  it's the servers responsibility to determine
> > whether it should call a method at vm1 or at vm12.
> >
> > IMNSHO, this is the achilles heel of EJB.
> >
> > --e--
> >
> > On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:24:22 +1100, dIon Gillard wrote:
> > >The method call can take place anywhere, but always appears to be
> > >remote. That could be many remote machines though. Location
independence
> > >is not about local vs remote, it's more about box1 vs box12.
>
> --
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<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Eddie Bush]

I thought we had abandoned this thread in favor of Struts related questions
=)

- Original Message -
From: "David Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net


> I'm staying out of this discussion, but to answer your question --
>
> IMNSHO = In My Not So Humble Opinion
>
> --David
>
> On Friday 22 February 2002 01:03 pm, you wrote:
> > IMNSHO?  What the hell is that?  Man, the colloquial shortcuts are
getting
> > hairy these days :)
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Edward Q. Bridges [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:15 AM
> > To: dIon Gillard; Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> >
> >
> > "location independence" means independent of location, that is all.
> >
> > if you're implementing two interfaces to do (more or less) the exact
same
> > thing, and one is called "local" and one is called "remote" that is
> > absolutely *not*, by any stretch of the imagination,  "location
> > independent". _end of story_.
> >
> > with EJBs the method call does not "appear" to be remote, because it is
> > *explicitly* remote.  the method is in a "RemoteInterface" and throws a
> > "RemoteException" for crying out loud!
> >
> > furthermore, it's not about box1 vs box12.  to be more precise, it's
about
> > vm1 vs. vm12.  and, if you are writing a client, your client has
business
> > logic to take care of.  it's the servers responsibility to determine
> > whether it should call a method at vm1 or at vm12.
> >
> > IMNSHO, this is the achilles heel of EJB.
> >
> > --e--
> >
> > On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:24:22 +1100, dIon Gillard wrote:
> > >The method call can take place anywhere, but always appears to be
> > >remote. That could be many remote machines though. Location
independence
> > >is not about local vs remote, it's more about box1 vs box12.
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Eddie Bush]

IMNSHO = In My Not So Humble Opinion?

- Original Message -
From: "Joseph Barefoot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Edward Q.
Bridges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 12:03 PM
Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net


> IMNSHO?  What the hell is that?  Man, the colloquial shortcuts are getting
> hairy these days :)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Edward Q. Bridges [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:15 AM
> To: dIon Gillard; Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
>
>
> "location independence" means independent of location, that is all.
>
> if you're implementing two interfaces to do (more or less) the exact same
> thing, and one is called "local" and one is called "remote" that is
> absolutely *not*, by any stretch of the imagination,  "location
> independent". _end of story_.
>
> with EJBs the method call does not "appear" to be remote, because it is
> *explicitly* remote.  the method is in a "RemoteInterface" and throws a
> "RemoteException" for crying out loud!
>
> furthermore, it's not about box1 vs box12.  to be more precise, it's about
> vm1 vs. vm12.  and, if you are writing a client, your client has business
> logic to take care of.  it's the servers responsibility to determine
> whether it should call a method at vm1 or at vm12.
>
> IMNSHO, this is the achilles heel of EJB.
>
> --e--
>
>
>
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:24:22 +1100, dIon Gillard wrote:
>
> >The method call can take place anywhere, but always appears to be
> >remote. That could be many remote machines though. Location independence
> >is not about local vs remote, it's more about box1 vs box12.
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> --
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>


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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[David Smith]

I'm staying out of this discussion, but to answer your question --

IMNSHO = In My Not So Humble Opinion

--David

On Friday 22 February 2002 01:03 pm, you wrote:
> IMNSHO?  What the hell is that?  Man, the colloquial shortcuts are getting
> hairy these days :)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Edward Q. Bridges [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:15 AM
> To: dIon Gillard; Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
>
>
> "location independence" means independent of location, that is all.
>
> if you're implementing two interfaces to do (more or less) the exact same
> thing, and one is called "local" and one is called "remote" that is
> absolutely *not*, by any stretch of the imagination,  "location
> independent". _end of story_.
>
> with EJBs the method call does not "appear" to be remote, because it is
> *explicitly* remote.  the method is in a "RemoteInterface" and throws a
> "RemoteException" for crying out loud!
>
> furthermore, it's not about box1 vs box12.  to be more precise, it's about
> vm1 vs. vm12.  and, if you are writing a client, your client has business
> logic to take care of.  it's the servers responsibility to determine
> whether it should call a method at vm1 or at vm12.
>
> IMNSHO, this is the achilles heel of EJB.
>
> --e--
>
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:24:22 +1100, dIon Gillard wrote:
> >The method call can take place anywhere, but always appears to be
> >remote. That could be many remote machines though. Location independence
> >is not about local vs remote, it's more about box1 vs box12.

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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Malcolm Davis]

Is there an off-ramp section for EJB flares?
People can write cramp in any language or technology.
This is a Struts Mailing List.

  >> -Original Message-
  >> From: Edward Q. Bridges [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  >> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 6:15 AM
  >> To: dIon Gillard; Struts Users Mailing List
  >> Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
  >>
  >>
  >> "location independence" means independent of
  >> location, that is all.
  >>
  >> if you're implementing two interfaces to do
  >> (more or less) the exact same
  >> thing, and one is called "local" and one is
  >> called "remote" that is
  >> absolutely *not*, by any stretch of the
  >> imagination,  "location
  >> independent". _end of story_.
  >>
  >> with EJBs the method call does not "appear" to
  >> be remote, because it is
  >> *explicitly* remote.  the method is in a
  >> "RemoteInterface" and throws a
  >> "RemoteException" for crying out loud!
  >>
  >> furthermore, it's not about box1 vs box12.  to
  >> be more precise, it's about
  >> vm1 vs. vm12.  and, if you are writing a
  >> client, your client has business
  >> logic to take care of.  it's the servers
  >> responsibility to determine
  >> whether it should call a method at vm1 or at vm12.
  >>
  >> IMNSHO, this is the achilles heel of EJB.
  >>
  >> --e--
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:24:22 +1100, dIon Gillard wrote:
  >>
  >> >The method call can take place anywhere, but
  >> always appears to be
  >> >remote. That could be many remote machines
  >> though. Location independence
  >> >is not about local vs remote, it's more about
  >> box1 vs box12.
  >> >
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >> --
  >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
  >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  >> For additional commands, e-mail:
  >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  >>


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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Joseph Barefoot]

IMNSHO?  What the hell is that?  Man, the colloquial shortcuts are getting
hairy these days :)

-Original Message-
From: Edward Q. Bridges [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:15 AM
To: dIon Gillard; Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net


"location independence" means independent of location, that is all.

if you're implementing two interfaces to do (more or less) the exact same
thing, and one is called "local" and one is called "remote" that is
absolutely *not*, by any stretch of the imagination,  "location
independent". _end of story_.

with EJBs the method call does not "appear" to be remote, because it is
*explicitly* remote.  the method is in a "RemoteInterface" and throws a
"RemoteException" for crying out loud!

furthermore, it's not about box1 vs box12.  to be more precise, it's about
vm1 vs. vm12.  and, if you are writing a client, your client has business
logic to take care of.  it's the servers responsibility to determine
whether it should call a method at vm1 or at vm12.

IMNSHO, this is the achilles heel of EJB.

--e--



On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:24:22 +1100, dIon Gillard wrote:

>The method call can take place anywhere, but always appears to be
>remote. That could be many remote machines though. Location independence
>is not about local vs remote, it's more about box1 vs box12.
>




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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Edward Q. Bridges]

"location independence" means independent of location, that is all. 

if you're implementing two interfaces to do (more or less) the exact same 
thing, and one is called "local" and one is called "remote" that is 
absolutely *not*, by any stretch of the imagination,  "location 
independent". _end of story_.

with EJBs the method call does not "appear" to be remote, because it is 
*explicitly* remote.  the method is in a "RemoteInterface" and throws a 
"RemoteException" for crying out loud!

furthermore, it's not about box1 vs box12.  to be more precise, it's about 
vm1 vs. vm12.  and, if you are writing a client, your client has business 
logic to take care of.  it's the servers responsibility to determine 
whether it should call a method at vm1 or at vm12.

IMNSHO, this is the achilles heel of EJB.

--e--



On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:24:22 +1100, dIon Gillard wrote:

>The method call can take place anywhere, but always appears to be 
>remote. That could be many remote machines though. Location independence 
>is not about local vs remote, it's more about box1 vs box12.
>




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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[David Hamilton]

No, I wouldn't say that the combination of Struts and EJB is problem prone.

The problems lie mainly with EJB and are in the following areas..

1) EJBs are only useful/applicable is certain situations.  Incorrect use of
EJBs (i.e. dictated by management when inappropriate) is a source of a lot
of issues.
2) Incorrect usage of EJB types by designers.  Studying the design patterns
and using the right type of beans for the right task is essential.
3) Inexperienced developers.  The EJB spec is large and the learning curve
steep.

The problems addressed by EJBs are non-trivial, and the method of
programming them is different to that which most programmers will be used
to.  Hence the problems that are being reported.

I do think that people like Vic stating 'EJB=bad' is extremely unhelpful
(and is probably more a reflection of the fact that they have not looked
into the subject deeply enough to understand why it is incorrect).

Also 'EJBs are for newbies' could not be more wrong.  EJBs are about as much
for newbies as the javax.swing.text packages are!

BTW: I ended up getting a copy of the Monson-Haefel book for each of my
developers, and I would recommend that development teams get a copy of the
chosen EJB reference text for each developer, as it seems to be important to
help the developers immerse themselves in the technology to be able to make
it work.

Hope that helps
david


- Original Message -
From: "Yu, Yanhui" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Vic Cekvenich'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Struts Users Mailing List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 8:27 PM
Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net


> Hi,
>
> I am involved in a pretty large project (we have not really started coding
> yet).  As far as I can tell, we seem to go with Struts + WSAD + EJBs &
Java
> + JSP.  Am I right to interpret that you mean the combination of Struts
and
> EJBs are problem prone?  Please help me to clarify on this.  Thank you
very
> much,
>
> Yanhui
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:42 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: EJB = bad = MS.net
>
>
> Home page of Jakarta has this
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
> on this:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
>
> I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems.
> Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.
>
> Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are
> doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC
> is all you need.
>
> Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the
> next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.
>
> EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)
>
> lol,
> Vic
>
>
>
> --
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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Jon Ferguson]

Hey guys,

I've been too heads down to contribute here.. but I just caught Ghoot's comment and I 
have to agree with him and Juan.  There's a lot of hype in the marketplace, our jobs 
are to get underneath, understand the tradeoffs and use them intelligently.  That's 
where elegance and beauty come into software development.

Cheers,
Jon

"Emaho, Ghoot" wrote:

> This has been an interesting discussion on many levels, but there doesnt seem to be 
>much 'real world' substance there.
>
> We have been developing enterprise software (some utilising EJB, some not) since EJB 
>were way back at 0.7 (ish) (1997). Systems with 1000's or 10,000's concurrent users. 
>We did it for real - NOT abstract theory.
>
> What this discussion has highlighted is that age old thing inthe software industry - 
>bandwagon. You have the media/hype bandwagon, but you also have the 'developer 
>opinion' bandwagon, where certain opinions become flavour of the month. Now it's 
>EJB's are bad, it has been JSP's are bad and so on.
>
> Let's get one thing straight - NO technology is perfect. So why do some developers 
>engage in 'my technology is better than yours' type holy wars ? Because they are 
>human and they dont know any better. Thats all. All of the really good developers 
>I've ever known have never subscribed to 'fixed viewpoints' ie EJB = BAD, Microsoft = 
>Evil, Java = whatever. Because they really understand what technology is about.
>
> Those who do dig their heels in on any particular standpoint, show only one thing - 
>their ignorance.
>
> All technologies have their place and their uses. It's up to a competent Architect 
>to decide what's right for their problem domain. What's right for mine, might not be 
>right for yours. I mean this is elementary stuff ! But many so called developers 
>behave as if they are really engaged in a holy war ! This just makes me laugh :) 
>Leave them too it is all I say...
>
> Ultimately you have to make an INFORMED choice - there is no absolute right or wrong 
>way. This should be the number one lesson any developer ever learns, but sadly many 
>never learn it.
>
> The beauty of becoming a good developer is to be able to make these informed choices 
>as you create your masterpiece, and not get stuck in the narrow-minded arguments of 
>'my toy is better than yours' - wether it's an OS, developer tool , language, 
>technology choice or whatever. Because then you resign yourself to reproducing copies 
>of other peoples art. And you make yourself look foolish in the process.
>
> This email is not an attack on anyone, and especially not Vic. He has his opinions. 
>Maybe the way he expresses them doesn't appeal to some, and maybe he did it with 
>tongue in cheek to provoke a response. Who knows ? It certainly reveals a lot about 
>the kind of developer he is and thats enough for me.
>
> If more developers could have a more altruistic attitude towards the tools they use, 
>then more quality software would be built. I have built software teams for many 
>years, and I have never employed a developer who demonstrates this 'small-minded' 
>mentality. Why ? Because in this industry things (tools, technolgies etc) change 
>quicker than peoples attitudes ! So you have to remain open-minded to succeed.
>
> Ultimately, why argue over the tools you are using ? When it's the artwork that 
>really matters.
>
> It's time for more developers to take responsibility in these matters. It's easy to 
>play the name calling game - children can do that. But it takes real skill to develop 
>good software, all the more if you are using 'less than perfect' technologies. But 
>that is also part of the challenge.
>
> Finally, non-EJB solutions dont always outperfrom EJB solutions - AND VICE VERSA ! 
>We have software in production which operates with large-scale load, using EJB's and 
>the performance is excellent. But this doesnt mean I'm saying EJB's are great. You 
>can make them work for you, but it doesnt come for free. And to say the are outright 
>bad as a solution is simply misinformed.
>
> Like anything else, it's not a black and white situation.
>
> Ghoot Emaho (ok, yes I'm a tree huggin hippy)
>
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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Thinh Doan]

I vote to keep this discussion going on here since 1) I don't want to
subscribe to another mailing list, and 2) it's a "natural" progression for
me to follow the MVC (Struts) framework/mindset.  There are topics related
to Struts here that I can't afford to read them all, perhaps EJBs could be
one topic for those who are not interested in this subject.

About Ghoot's point that we need to pick the right technology for the right
application/requirements, I'd totally agree.  And I'm relying on this type
of discussions to help me make that initial decision, provided it's factual
and objective.  If everyone says technology XYZ should be avoided because
1)... 2)..., don't go there, why would I waste time considering or
evaluating it?

So many thanks to those who have contributed to this thread.

Thinh

-Original Message-
From: Cakalic, James [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 1:51 PM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net - worrisome flow of ignorant off-topic
"a dvice" on this board


I'm not sure it is entirely off-topic, Alex. Many people are concerned, and
rightly so, about application of technologies and design patterns in the
development of systems which are also utilizing Struts. Sometimes the use of
a framework like Struts can result in confusion by less enlightened ones
than yourself about how to 'hook-up' the rest of the system. I've seen
several posts now by Ted Husted that talk about the proper allocation of
responsibilities to Action classes v. "business delegates" which interact
with the model. Meaningful advice about patterns and technologies can help
people who are searching for proven solutions. Unfortunately, the thread
went a bit astray even as it started because of the character of the
comments.

BTW, as for mapping "500 data tables to 500 entity beans" being an "idiotic
architecture", I went to an IBM WebSphere Commerce Suite course last month
and learned that the product has 300 tables, nearly all of which are mapped
by CMP entity beans. There are almost no session beans in the design. And
they don't use container managed transactions. Every unit of work started by
a web hit is wrapped in a JTA user transaction by the web app front
controller and the transaction includes the response generation. Not quite
the architecture I would have expected. Can't speak to any of the -ilities
of this design. But just goes to show, I think, that there are plenty of
ways to tackle the problem.

As for off-topic discussions, I would have expected you to flame the "Which
development environment" thread a little more vigorously than this one. But
maybe what is irrelevant, frivolous, ignorant, or off-topic is a matter of
personal opinion?

Jim

> -Original Message-
> From: Esterkin, Alex [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 12:56 PM
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net - worrisome flow of ignorant off-topic
> "a dvice" on this board
> Importance: High
>
>
> I hope not many enterprise applications are built using this ignorant
> 'advice'.  IBM argued against EJBs up until recently because
> of countless
> deficiencies in EJB container implementation in WebSphere
> 3.5.*.  Since
> WebSphere 4.0 introduction, they have clearly warmed up to
> using EJBs in
> their "best practices" white papers.
>
> As any other technology, EJBs can be abused. If one mapped a fully
> normalized DB schema consisting of 500 data tables to 500
> entity beans, this
> would be an idiotic architecture. In any case, this has
> nothing to do with
> MVC or Struts.
>
> I suggest members of this list stick to the main topic of discussion -
> Struts.  Struts has nothing to do with EJBs.  In a properly designed
> application, EJBs, DAOs or any other persistence related components
> shouldn't be accessed directly from presentation elements and
> components,
> such as JSP tags.
>
> Sticking closer to the topic of this list will allow to
> reduce the flow of
> postings to more reasonable levels.
>
> Best regards,
> --------
>Alex Esterkin
> =
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 12:42
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: EJB = bad = MS.net
>
>
> Home page of Jakarta has this
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
> on this:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
>
> I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and crea

RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Yu, Yanhui]

Hi,

I am involved in a pretty large project (we have not really started coding
yet).  As far as I can tell, we seem to go with Struts + WSAD + EJBs & Java
+ JSP.  Am I right to interpret that you mean the combination of Struts and
EJBs are problem prone?  Please help me to clarify on this.  Thank you very
much,

Yanhui




-Original Message-
From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:42 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: EJB = bad = MS.net


Home page of Jakarta has this
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
on this:
http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html

I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. 
Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.

Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are 
doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC 
is all you need.

Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the 
next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.

EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)

lol,
Vic



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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Robert Claeson]

Thompson, Darryl wrote:

> Tomcat is much better at serving
> webpages the WLS or Websphere,

Not surprising, as Websphere doesn't serve web pages. It works in tandem 
with Apache (or MS IIS, or iPlanet, or...).



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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[dIon Gillard]

Edward Q. Bridges wrote:

>i like EJBs (note that i said "like" and not "love").  i think they have 
>some applicability.
>
>however, a peeve of mine about EJBs and the spec is this claim of "location 
>independence."  furthermore, the claim to location independence is eroding:  
>note that in the 1.1 spec it claims: 
>   "The client view of an entity bean is location independent."  (8.1)
>and in the corresponding section of the 2.0 spec, this has evolved to the 
>more mealy-mouthed:
>   "The client of an entity bean may be a remote client or the client may 
>be a local client."
>
>the point of location independence is that a client should not be concerned 
>about where the method call is taking place.  but, this has been built into 
>the spec from day one. ("RemoteException", "RemoteHome", . . . ).
>
The method call can take place anywhere, but always appears to be 
remote. That could be many remote machines though. Location independence 
is not about local vs remote, it's more about box1 vs box12.

>
>
>perhaps this is a trivial point, but it is misleading, misrepresentative, 
>and is an example (IMHO) of how EJBs are successful at making things more 
>complicated than they need to be.
>
>regards
>--e--
>
>
>On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:55:52 +1100, dIon Gillard wrote:
>
>>- location independence
>>


-- 
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
http://www.multitask.com.au/developers




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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net - worrisome flow of ignorant off-topic "a dvice" on this board

[Cakalic, James]

I'm not sure it is entirely off-topic, Alex. Many people are concerned, and
rightly so, about application of technologies and design patterns in the
development of systems which are also utilizing Struts. Sometimes the use of
a framework like Struts can result in confusion by less enlightened ones
than yourself about how to 'hook-up' the rest of the system. I've seen
several posts now by Ted Husted that talk about the proper allocation of
responsibilities to Action classes v. "business delegates" which interact
with the model. Meaningful advice about patterns and technologies can help
people who are searching for proven solutions. Unfortunately, the thread
went a bit astray even as it started because of the character of the
comments.

BTW, as for mapping "500 data tables to 500 entity beans" being an "idiotic
architecture", I went to an IBM WebSphere Commerce Suite course last month
and learned that the product has 300 tables, nearly all of which are mapped
by CMP entity beans. There are almost no session beans in the design. And
they don't use container managed transactions. Every unit of work started by
a web hit is wrapped in a JTA user transaction by the web app front
controller and the transaction includes the response generation. Not quite
the architecture I would have expected. Can't speak to any of the -ilities
of this design. But just goes to show, I think, that there are plenty of
ways to tackle the problem.

As for off-topic discussions, I would have expected you to flame the "Which
development environment" thread a little more vigorously than this one. But
maybe what is irrelevant, frivolous, ignorant, or off-topic is a matter of
personal opinion?

Jim

> -Original Message-
> From: Esterkin, Alex [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 12:56 PM
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net - worrisome flow of ignorant off-topic
> "a dvice" on this board
> Importance: High
> 
> 
> I hope not many enterprise applications are built using this ignorant
> 'advice'.  IBM argued against EJBs up until recently because 
> of countless
> deficiencies in EJB container implementation in WebSphere 
> 3.5.*.  Since
> WebSphere 4.0 introduction, they have clearly warmed up to 
> using EJBs in
> their "best practices" white papers. 
> 
> As any other technology, EJBs can be abused. If one mapped a fully
> normalized DB schema consisting of 500 data tables to 500 
> entity beans, this
> would be an idiotic architecture. In any case, this has 
> nothing to do with
> MVC or Struts.
> 
> I suggest members of this list stick to the main topic of discussion -
> Struts.  Struts has nothing to do with EJBs.  In a properly designed
> application, EJBs, DAOs or any other persistence related components
> shouldn't be accessed directly from presentation elements and 
> components,
> such as JSP tags.  
> 
> Sticking closer to the topic of this list will allow to 
> reduce the flow of
> postings to more reasonable levels.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
>Alex Esterkin 
> =================
>   
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 12:42
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: EJB = bad = MS.net
> 
> 
> Home page of Jakarta has this
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
> on this:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
> 
> I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. 
> Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.
> 
> Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO 
> if you are 
> doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet 
> spot. MVC 
> is all you need.
> 
> Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS 
> .NET on the 
> next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.
> 
> EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)
> 
> lol,
> Vic
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
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RE: Code To Update DB With Transactions (was RE: EJB = bad = MS.net)

[Cakalic, James]

rrently doing. But
instead of our own command framework, we're using one provided by IBM with
WebSphere. And instead of writing our own TransactionExecutive, we're using
a stateless session bean with container managed transactions that catches
exceptions and calls setRollbackOnly on the EJBContext so the container does
the right thing. Of course, because the container also provides a connection
pooling mechanism (DataSource) that is integrated with the transaction
manager, we don't have to get a Connection and pass it around. Instead, we
can ask the DataSource for a Connection from anywhere and it is
automatically enlisted in the global transaction on our behalf. All requests
for a Connection from the thread of execution that use the same connection
parameters (userid and password) return the same actual database connection,
thus reducing the number of physical resources being used without any
additional programming effort on our part.

And in the end, for me, that's what it really is all about. I want to be
robust, secure, reliable, performant, and scalable systems as rapidly as
possible. It just so happens that using EJBs -- actually just one EJB -- and
an EJB container solves a huge part of the equation for me. When a better
solution comes along -- and I hope it leverages Java for all the positives
that the language, environment, and community have to offer -- then I'll be
there.

Best regards,
Jim Cakalic



> -Original Message-
> From: keithBacon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 10:43 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Code To Update DB With Transactions (was RE: EJB = bad =
> MS.net)
> 
> 
> Ah ha - I thought you'd imply that you only do it this way
> if you are doing updates! Catch me out some other way!
> There's got to be some other catch...
> Keith.
> PS. No being frivolous on the list tomorrow
>  - I'm not around to appreciate it!
>  
> --- "Galbreath, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Yes.  If the query is a simple read, you don't need the 
> transactions checks.
> > 
> > :-)
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: keithBacon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 9:54 AM
> > 
> > Is there anything wrong with the design below?
> > Is there anything simpler? (Are EJB's simpler?).
> > I typed this from memory from my last job. it was never really
> > seriously tested but worked in practice with low volumes.
> > 
> > try {
> >// gets connection - ensures AutoCommit off & starts 
> transaction.
> >Connection cnct DbUtils.getConnectionWithTransaction(..)
> >DBUserValidator.saveToDb(cnct);
> >DBAuthorisationValidator.saveToDb(cnct);
> >DbUtils.commit(cnct);
> > } catch (Exception e) {
> >DbUtils.backout(cnct);
> >throw e;
> > } finally {
> >DbUtils.releaseConnection(cnct);
> > }  
> > ===
> > cheers - Keith.
> > 
> > --- "Cakalic, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Even if all the data is in a single physical RDBMS 
> instance, your design
> > has
> > > to take one of several paths to deal with transactional issues.
> 
> 
> =
> ~~
> Search the archive:-
> http://www.mail-archive.com/struts-user%40jakarta.apache.org/
> ~~
> Keith Bacon - Looking for struts work - South-East UK.
> phone UK 07960 011275
> 
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
> http://sports.yahoo.com
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 

RE: EJB = bad = MS.net - worrisome flow of ignorant off-topic "advice" on this board

[Esterkin, Alex]

I hope not many enterprise applications are built using this ignorant
'advice'.  IBM argued against EJBs up until recently because of countless
deficiencies in EJB container implementation in WebSphere 3.5.*.  Since
WebSphere 4.0 introduction, they have clearly warmed up to using EJBs in
their "best practices" white papers. 

As any other technology, EJBs can be abused. If one mapped a fully
normalized DB schema consisting of 500 data tables to 500 entity beans, this
would be an idiotic architecture. In any case, this has nothing to do with
MVC or Struts.

I suggest members of this list stick to the main topic of discussion -
Struts.  Struts has nothing to do with EJBs.  In a properly designed
application, EJBs, DAOs or any other persistence related components
shouldn't be accessed directly from presentation elements and components,
such as JSP tags.  

Sticking closer to the topic of this list will allow to reduce the flow of
postings to more reasonable levels.

Best regards,

   Alex Esterkin 
=



-Original Message-
From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 12:42
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: EJB = bad = MS.net


Home page of Jakarta has this
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
on this:
http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html

I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. 
Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.

Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are 
doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC 
is all you need.

Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the 
next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.

EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)

lol,
Vic



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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Edward Q. Bridges]

yes, i guess you're right.  it never existed in the first place.


On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:52:43 +0200, Maris Orbidans wrote:
>
>It's simply because EJB 2.0 has local interfaces (1.1 doesnt) , not that
>"claim to location independence is eroding".
>




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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[keithBacon]

It's all a bunch of tree huggin' hippy wisdom!
Good to hear from people with years of experience in these things, so thanks.

--- "Emaho, Ghoot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This has been an interesting discussion on many levels, but there doesnt seem
> to be much 'real world' substance there.
> 
> We have been developing enterprise software (some utilising EJB, some not)
> since EJB were way back at 0.7 (ish) (1997). Systems with 1000's or 10,000's
> concurrent users. We did it for real - NOT abstract theory.
> 
> What this discussion has highlighted is that age old thing inthe software
> industry - bandwagon. You have the media/hype bandwagon, but you also have
> the 'developer opinion' bandwagon, where certain opinions become flavour of
> the month. Now it's EJB's are bad, it has been JSP's are bad and so on.
> 
> Let's get one thing straight - NO technology is perfect. So why do some
> developers engage in 'my technology is better than yours' type holy wars ?
> Because they are human and they dont know any better. Thats all. All of the
> really good developers I've ever known have never subscribed to 'fixed
> viewpoints' ie EJB = BAD, Microsoft = Evil, Java = whatever. Because they
> really understand what technology is about.
> 
> Those who do dig their heels in on any particular standpoint, show only one
> thing - their ignorance.
> 
> All technologies have their place and their uses. It's up to a competent
> Architect to decide what's right for their problem domain. What's right for
> mine, might not be right for yours. I mean this is elementary stuff ! But
> many so called developers behave as if they are really engaged in a holy war
> ! This just makes me laugh :) Leave them too it is all I say...
> 
> Ultimately you have to make an INFORMED choice - there is no absolute right
> or wrong way. This should be the number one lesson any developer ever learns,
> but sadly many never learn it.
> 
> The beauty of becoming a good developer is to be able to make these informed
> choices as you create your masterpiece, and not get stuck in the
> narrow-minded arguments of 'my toy is better than yours' - wether it's an OS,
> developer tool , language, technology choice or whatever. Because then you
> resign yourself to reproducing copies of other peoples art. And you make
> yourself look foolish in the process.
> 
> This email is not an attack on anyone, and especially not Vic. He has his
> opinions. Maybe the way he expresses them doesn't appeal to some, and maybe
> he did it with tongue in cheek to provoke a response. Who knows ? It
> certainly reveals a lot about the kind of developer he is and thats enough
> for me.
> 
> If more developers could have a more altruistic attitude towards the tools
> they use, then more quality software would be built. I have built software
> teams for many years, and I have never employed a developer who demonstrates
> this 'small-minded' mentality. Why ? Because in this industry things (tools,
> technolgies etc) change quicker than peoples attitudes ! So you have to
> remain open-minded to succeed. 
> 
> Ultimately, why argue over the tools you are using ? When it's the artwork
> that really matters.
> 
> It's time for more developers to take responsibility in these matters. It's
> easy to play the name calling game - children can do that. But it takes real
> skill to develop good software, all the more if you are using 'less than
> perfect' technologies. But that is also part of the challenge.
> 
> Finally, non-EJB solutions dont always outperfrom EJB solutions - AND VICE
> VERSA ! We have software in production which operates with large-scale load,
> using EJB's and the performance is excellent. But this doesnt mean I'm saying
> EJB's are great. You can make them work for you, but it doesnt come for free.
> And to say the are outright bad as a solution is simply misinformed.
> 
> Like anything else, it's not a black and white situation.
> 
> Ghoot Emaho (ok, yes I'm a tree huggin hippy)
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 


=
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~~
Keith Bacon - Looking for struts work - South-East UK.
phone UK 07960 011275

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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Maris Orbidans]

> however, a peeve of mine about EJBs and the spec is this claim of
"location 
> independence."  furthermore, the claim to location independence is
eroding:  
> note that in the 1.1 spec it claims: 
>"The client view of an entity bean is location independent."  (8.1)
> and in the corresponding section of the 2.0 spec, this has evolved to
the 
> more mealy-mouthed:
>"The client of an entity bean may be a remote client or the client
may 
> be a local client."

It's simply because EJB 2.0 has local interfaces (1.1 doesnt) , not that
"claim to location independence is eroding".

regards,
Maris Orbidans
DataPro


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Code To Update DB With Transactions (was RE: EJB = bad = MS.net)

[keithBacon]

Ah ha - I thought you'd imply that you only do it this way
if you are doing updates! Catch me out some other way!
There's got to be some other catch...
Keith.
PS. No being frivolous on the list tomorrow
 - I'm not around to appreciate it!
 
--- "Galbreath, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yes.  If the query is a simple read, you don't need the transactions checks.
> 
> :-)
> 
> Mark
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: keithBacon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 9:54 AM
> 
> Is there anything wrong with the design below?
> Is there anything simpler? (Are EJB's simpler?).
> I typed this from memory from my last job. it was never really
> seriously tested but worked in practice with low volumes.
> 
> try {
>// gets connection - ensures AutoCommit off & starts transaction.
>Connection cnct DbUtils.getConnectionWithTransaction(..)
>DBUserValidator.saveToDb(cnct);
>DBAuthorisationValidator.saveToDb(cnct);
>DbUtils.commit(cnct);
> } catch (Exception e) {
>DbUtils.backout(cnct);
>throw e;
> } finally {
>DbUtils.releaseConnection(cnct);
> }  
> ===
> cheers - Keith.
> 
> --- "Cakalic, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Even if all the data is in a single physical RDBMS instance, your design
> has
> > to take one of several paths to deal with transactional issues.


=
~~
Search the archive:-
http://www.mail-archive.com/struts-user%40jakarta.apache.org/
~~
Keith Bacon - Looking for struts work - South-East UK.
phone UK 07960 011275

__
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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Galbreath, Mark]

Yes.  If the query is a simple read, you don't need the transactions checks.

:-)

Mark

-Original Message-
From: keithBacon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 9:54 AM

Is there anything wrong with the design below?
Is there anything simpler? (Are EJB's simpler?).
I typed this from memory from my last job. it was never really
seriously tested but worked in practice with low volumes.

try {
   // gets connection - ensures AutoCommit off & starts transaction.
   Connection cnct DbUtils.getConnectionWithTransaction(..)
   DBUserValidator.saveToDb(cnct);
   DBAuthorisationValidator.saveToDb(cnct);
   DbUtils.commit(cnct);
} catch (Exception e) {
   DbUtils.backout(cnct);
   throw e;
} finally {
   DbUtils.releaseConnection(cnct);
}  
===
cheers - Keith.

--- "Cakalic, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Even if all the data is in a single physical RDBMS instance, your design
has
> to take one of several paths to deal with transactional issues.

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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Juan Alvarado \(Struts List\)]

Good response Ghoot. This has probably been the best response to this whole
debate so far.

One thing I have learned about this whole discussion is that you definetely
should not marry yourself to one specific technology because that's when you
will get into the kind of non-sense this discussion has created at times.

I have never used EJB before and I was hoping to learn soon. But Vic says
that if you want to stay in java avoid EJB. My response to that is that if
you want to stay in java keep an open mind to everything including EJB.
That's where I stand on the issue.


**
Juan Alvarado
Internet Developer -- Manduca Management
(786)552-0504
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
AOL Instant Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: Emaho, Ghoot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 10:05 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net


This has been an interesting discussion on many levels, but there doesnt
seem to be much 'real world' substance there.

We have been developing enterprise software (some utilising EJB, some not)
since EJB were way back at 0.7 (ish) (1997). Systems with 1000's or 10,000's
concurrent users. We did it for real - NOT abstract theory.

What this discussion has highlighted is that age old thing inthe software
industry - bandwagon. You have the media/hype bandwagon, but you also have
the 'developer opinion' bandwagon, where certain opinions become flavour of
the month. Now it's EJB's are bad, it has been JSP's are bad and so on.

Let's get one thing straight - NO technology is perfect. So why do some
developers engage in 'my technology is better than yours' type holy wars ?
Because they are human and they dont know any better. Thats all. All of the
really good developers I've ever known have never subscribed to 'fixed
viewpoints' ie EJB = BAD, Microsoft = Evil, Java = whatever. Because they
really understand what technology is about.

Those who do dig their heels in on any particular standpoint, show only one
thing - their ignorance.

All technologies have their place and their uses. It's up to a competent
Architect to decide what's right for their problem domain. What's right for
mine, might not be right for yours. I mean this is elementary stuff ! But
many so called developers behave as if they are really engaged in a holy war
! This just makes me laugh :) Leave them too it is all I say...

Ultimately you have to make an INFORMED choice - there is no absolute right
or wrong way. This should be the number one lesson any developer ever
learns, but sadly many never learn it.

The beauty of becoming a good developer is to be able to make these informed
choices as you create your masterpiece, and not get stuck in the
narrow-minded arguments of 'my toy is better than yours' - wether it's an
OS, developer tool , language, technology choice or whatever. Because then
you resign yourself to reproducing copies of other peoples art. And you make
yourself look foolish in the process.

This email is not an attack on anyone, and especially not Vic. He has his
opinions. Maybe the way he expresses them doesn't appeal to some, and maybe
he did it with tongue in cheek to provoke a response. Who knows ? It
certainly reveals a lot about the kind of developer he is and thats enough
for me.

If more developers could have a more altruistic attitude towards the tools
they use, then more quality software would be built. I have built software
teams for many years, and I have never employed a developer who demonstrates
this 'small-minded' mentality. Why ? Because in this industry things (tools,
technolgies etc) change quicker than peoples attitudes ! So you have to
remain open-minded to succeed.

Ultimately, why argue over the tools you are using ? When it's the artwork
that really matters.

It's time for more developers to take responsibility in these matters. It's
easy to play the name calling game - children can do that. But it takes real
skill to develop good software, all the more if you are using 'less than
perfect' technologies. But that is also part of the challenge.

Finally, non-EJB solutions dont always outperfrom EJB solutions - AND VICE
VERSA ! We have software in production which operates with large-scale load,
using EJB's and the performance is excellent. But this doesnt mean I'm
saying EJB's are great. You can make them work for you, but it doesnt come
for free. And to say the are outright bad as a solution is simply
misinformed.

Like anything else, it's not a black and white situation.

Ghoot Emaho (ok, yes I'm a tree huggin hippy)

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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Emaho, Ghoot]

This has been an interesting discussion on many levels, but there doesnt seem to be 
much 'real world' substance there.

We have been developing enterprise software (some utilising EJB, some not) since EJB 
were way back at 0.7 (ish) (1997). Systems with 1000's or 10,000's concurrent users. 
We did it for real - NOT abstract theory.

What this discussion has highlighted is that age old thing inthe software industry - 
bandwagon. You have the media/hype bandwagon, but you also have the 'developer 
opinion' bandwagon, where certain opinions become flavour of the month. Now it's EJB's 
are bad, it has been JSP's are bad and so on.

Let's get one thing straight - NO technology is perfect. So why do some developers 
engage in 'my technology is better than yours' type holy wars ? Because they are human 
and they dont know any better. Thats all. All of the really good developers I've ever 
known have never subscribed to 'fixed viewpoints' ie EJB = BAD, Microsoft = Evil, Java 
= whatever. Because they really understand what technology is about.

Those who do dig their heels in on any particular standpoint, show only one thing - 
their ignorance.

All technologies have their place and their uses. It's up to a competent Architect to 
decide what's right for their problem domain. What's right for mine, might not be 
right for yours. I mean this is elementary stuff ! But many so called developers 
behave as if they are really engaged in a holy war ! This just makes me laugh :) Leave 
them too it is all I say...

Ultimately you have to make an INFORMED choice - there is no absolute right or wrong 
way. This should be the number one lesson any developer ever learns, but sadly many 
never learn it.

The beauty of becoming a good developer is to be able to make these informed choices 
as you create your masterpiece, and not get stuck in the narrow-minded arguments of 
'my toy is better than yours' - wether it's an OS, developer tool , language, 
technology choice or whatever. Because then you resign yourself to reproducing copies 
of other peoples art. And you make yourself look foolish in the process.

This email is not an attack on anyone, and especially not Vic. He has his opinions. 
Maybe the way he expresses them doesn't appeal to some, and maybe he did it with 
tongue in cheek to provoke a response. Who knows ? It certainly reveals a lot about 
the kind of developer he is and thats enough for me.

If more developers could have a more altruistic attitude towards the tools they use, 
then more quality software would be built. I have built software teams for many years, 
and I have never employed a developer who demonstrates this 'small-minded' mentality. 
Why ? Because in this industry things (tools, technolgies etc) change quicker than 
peoples attitudes ! So you have to remain open-minded to succeed. 

Ultimately, why argue over the tools you are using ? When it's the artwork that really 
matters.

It's time for more developers to take responsibility in these matters. It's easy to 
play the name calling game - children can do that. But it takes real skill to develop 
good software, all the more if you are using 'less than perfect' technologies. But 
that is also part of the challenge.

Finally, non-EJB solutions dont always outperfrom EJB solutions - AND VICE VERSA ! We 
have software in production which operates with large-scale load, using EJB's and the 
performance is excellent. But this doesnt mean I'm saying EJB's are great. You can 
make them work for you, but it doesnt come for free. And to say the are outright bad 
as a solution is simply misinformed.

Like anything else, it's not a black and white situation.

Ghoot Emaho (ok, yes I'm a tree huggin hippy)

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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[keithBacon]

 joined. Since the same application server that manages
> the transactions is managing the connection pool, it hands out the same
> database connection to everyone requesting a connection using the same
> connection parameters. One database, one connection for the transaction.
> Really, the only code we had to write to deal with transactions was in the
> stateless session bean. It catches all exceptions thrown out of the command
> it was asked to execute and calls the EJBContext setRollbackOnly method to
> ensure the transaction is rolled back. Otherwise, the container takes care
> of the commit regardless of the level of nesting of command executions.
> 
> IBM WebSphere provided the majority of the command framework implementation
> that we are using. But their implementation isn't anything special which
> couldn't be developed elsewhere. If you'd like to know more about it, here
> are some links:
> 
> http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/ibm/library/i-extreme13/
> http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/doc/v40/ae/apidocs/com/ibm/
> websphere/command/package-summary.html
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: keithBacon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 1:50 PM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > 
> > 
> > > Ever tried to do a distributed transaction across multiple database
> > > connections?
> > Hardly ever never needed them. When we did we wished for EJB's.
> > I'd strongly recommend putting all your data on 1 big 
> > relational database so a
> > transaction can be managed by it. This is far simpler than 
> > EJB's. Of course
> > this isn't always possible - but you distribute data when you 
> > are forced to -
> > not coz it's more high tech fun.
> > Example - in the UK big companies buy a copy of the Post 
> > Office Address
> > database  & some software to call in their systems. Hundreds 
> > of companies
> > install the same software & get regular database updates. 
> > Some time soon
> > they'll just do an EJB call to a Post Office server - much better!
> > Another example - online checking of credit details - 1 
> > credit company services
> > hundreds of users - code on it's server must be called from 
> > servers all over
> > the place.
> > These are a requirement of a minority of systems. I fear that 
> > over-use of EJB
> > by people who aren't skilled/experienced enough is going to 
> > give java a bad
> > name! & Microsoft is gunning for us. Vic is mostly right - 
> > forget EJB's use
> > them only if you are driven to it ie. there is a significant 
> > real requirement.
> > If high volumes are required you will need to performance 
> > test your app & have
> > expert tuners available etc.
> > Time for some-one to complain - this is off topic!
> > PS I never used EJB's but looked into them & recommended my 
> > company not use
> > them & I was right.
> > 
> > 
> > --- "Cakalic, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Hmm. And this guy claims to be training other developers 
> > using Struts. If
> > > this is the kind of ranting that goes on in his book then 
> > its no longer a
> > > wonder to me why people have blasted it so mercilessly.
> > > 
> > > Ever tried to do a distributed transaction across multiple database
> > > connections? Hard enough without substantial design even 
> > when they are all
> > > targeting the same physical database. Now try a distributed 
> > database. What
> > > if your enterprise data is coming from multiple sources? Or 
> > you want to
> > > involve messaging in the transaction? As for security, you 
> > can take it or
> > > leave it in the EJB model. But wouldn't be a good idea to 
> > design a single
> > > access point for such a resource to encapsulate the 
> > security policy? And
> > > wouldn't it be good for that policy to be declarative? And 
> > wouldn't you like
> > > the security credentials to be automatically propogated by 
> > the ORB? And
> > > wouldn't you like the roles to be retrieved from the same 
> > mechanism used to
> > > authenticate the user in the first place? And why would you 
> > write all that
> > > when it already exists?
> > > 
> > > Granted, excessive use of EJB technology just because it is 
> > in your pocket
> > > is not a good design cho

RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Juan Alvarado \(Struts List\)]

Wasn't this suppose to be a Struts mailing list???

**
Juan Alvarado
Internet Developer -- Manduca Management
(786)552-0504
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
AOL Instant Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: Arron Bates [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 6:37 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net


Anyone who cares about this, go here... lots of forums about just this
topic...
http://www.theserverside.com

Now for something completely different... Struts!

Arron.

PS: My bet is that Vic wont post his mail on theserverside.com

keithBacon wrote:

>>2. I do not want majority of market to go to MS.net. That is why I wish
>>  that more J2EE projects are successful.
>>
>Yes yes yes!
>What's the proper list for this really interesting discussion? We are
>cluttering up the struts list here.
>We need opinions from developers who have succeedsed in EJB
implementations,
>had problems with them & managers who understand the issues.
>There are a lot of software envangelists around. The sceptics should be
>listened to. It's too complicated to prove a case using theory - the only
safe
>guide is to find some-one else that has done what you want to do & copy
them.
>Apart from the lucky few at the real leading edge of technology most of us
>trying to write commercial quality systems should be using old(ish) proven
>technology & stable releases of products.
>Only a certain(?) percentage of developers are capable of writing decent
>systems using new technology. It seems to me these people have used EJB in
a
>limited way quite OK. And others have made a total mess out of them.
>They say about 40% of large projects fail - how many EJB developments
succeed?
>Managers like developers that get joy from delivering cost effective
>functionality rather than using flash technology. Enough already..
>
>
>
>--- Struts Newsgroup <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
>>From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> ===
>>Let me clarify and then do some paid work back here.
>>
>>1.I think ejbs are not scalable relative to other Java API.
>>
>>2. I do not want majority of market to go to MS.net. That is why I wish
>>  that more J2EE projects are successful. (And hence I say use EJB
>>sometimes, not always, and consider the pros and cons.)
>>
>>Maybe PHBs like EJBs, I don't; and that is my opinion, but maybe not
>>politically correct.
>>Vic
>>
>>
>>
>>Couball, James wrote:
>>
>>>Depends on the project requirements.
>>>
>>>Transactions across multiple data sources being a big one.
>>>Large and scalable being another.
>>>
>>>...what are the others?
>>>
>>>Although his words say something different, maybe Vic is arguing that MS
>>>does this better/easier/cheaper than J2EE -- not that J2EE is
fundamentally
>>>bad.
>>>
>>>James.
>>>
>>>-Original Message-
>>>From: Pu Huang [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:37 AM
>>>To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
>>>Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
>>>
>>>Depends on the project size.
>>>
>>>
>>>-Original Message-
>>>From: Thompson, Darryl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 2:28 PM
>>>To: Struts Users Mailing List
>>>Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
>>>
>>>
>>> I STRONGLY disagree with this statement. We have been doing EJBs for 2
yrs
>>>at my shop. Our Order Entry system  uses EJBs to capture customer orders
in
>>>36 cities (US) in every US timezone and we have had nothing but success.
By
>>>the way there is NO reason to buy BEA weblogic unless you are running
EJBs
>>>and don't trust JBOSS (which I do). Tomcat is much better at serving
>>>webpages the WLS or Websphere, EJBs are one of the cornerstones of J2EE,
>>>wake up Vic...
>>>
>>>
>>>>-Original Message-
>>>>From:   Vic Cekvenich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>>>Sent:   Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:42 AM
>>>>To: Struts Users Mailing List
>>>>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>Subject:EJB = bad = MS.net
>>>>
>>>>Home page of Jakarta has this
>>>>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
>>>>on this:
>>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
>>>>
>>>>I agree. Doing EJ

Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Arron Bates]

Yes, opions are opinions. So let every one get their own opinion about 
EJB's, and keep the Struts mailing  list for discussing Struts opinions.

The last thing the mailing list needs is holy wars about off-topic 
ranted opinions.
Keep the Struts mailing list about Struts.

Thanks.

Arron.


Struts Newsgroup (@Basebeans.com) wrote:

>Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
>From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> ===
>more flame
>I just agreed with what was on the home page of Jakarta.
>EJB / smejb.
>I am not talking about "hello world" ejbs.
>Those are features you list. To many features is sort of like building a 
>submarine that is also a law mower. A distributed database?
>Nice features theoretically. In practice KISS.
>
>Elegant is more flexible, complex is just complex.
>
>We can all have a different opinion. I think the CW is use EJB 
>sometimes, not all the time. I would use it less, you would use it more.
>
>
>(Every one of my class reviews by every students is posted publicly at 
>news.basebeans.com)
>
>
>Cakalic, James wrote:
>
>>Hmm. And this guy claims to be training other developers using Struts. If
>>this is the kind of ranting that goes on in his book then its no longer a
>>wonder to me why people have blasted it so mercilessly.
>>
>>Ever tried to do a distributed transaction across multiple database
>>connections? Hard enough without substantial design even when they are all
>>targeting the same physical database. Now try a distributed database. What
>>if your enterprise data is coming from multiple sources? Or you want to
>>involve messaging in the transaction? As for security, you can take it or
>>leave it in the EJB model. But wouldn't be a good idea to design a single
>>access point for such a resource to encapsulate the security policy? And
>>wouldn't it be good for that policy to be declarative? And wouldn't you like
>>the security credentials to be automatically propogated by the ORB? And
>>wouldn't you like the roles to be retrieved from the same mechanism used to
>>authenticate the user in the first place? And why would you write all that
>>when it already exists?
>>
>>Granted, excessive use of EJB technology just because it is in your pocket
>>is not a good design choice. But claiming it is always a bad choice
>>regardless of circumstances is just as bad if not worse IMHO. Disputing the
>>pros/cons of EJB and related technologies with someone who clearly does not
>>appreciate the systemic issues the technologies are attempting to address is
>>sorta like debating the benefits of MVC with one of those died-in-the-wool,
>>you'll-never-change-my-mind, always-choose-the-most-expedient-route Model 1
>>programmers we've all run up against. They're so indoctrinated with their
>>own BS that they just can't see anything else.
>>
>>Jim Cakalic
>>
>>
>>>-Original Message-
>>>From: Struts Newsgroup [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 12:25 PM
>>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
>>>
>>>
>>>Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
>>>From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>===
>>>
>>>Transaction: DBs have it; or you can have a Java Bean, that has 2 
>>>JavaBeans in it, and all have a "commit()" method. You use EJB for a 
>>>commit()?
>>>Security? :
>>>-Menu based based on a role (using Struts-menu), some items 
>>>are disabled 
>>>based on your role.
>>>-JAAS JDBC Realms (I also get groupID)
>>>-Based groupID some rows retrieved / selected are editable, 
>>>some RO and 
>>>some invisible on your selects. It's called row based security.
>>>- Status based, based on a status of a row, some fileds become RO.
>>>
>>>EJBs give you 0 useful security.
>>>
>>>EJBs are also very slow to develop, and they distract developers to 
>>>develop technology and not solve a business problems. They 
>>>are also  
>>>slow to execute, thus they are only suitable for small 
>>>applications with 
>>>low volume (and for organizations where a profit margin is 
>>>not important 
>>>or on going cost of operations is not important).
>>>THere are some with EJB and and some resumes with EJBs are by 
>>>people who 
>>>have written a laboratory "hello world" ejb and never 
>>>actually used them 
>>>in production deployed where there is volume.
>>>
>>>"Custo

RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Galbreath, Mark]

What's wrong with .NET?  And what is an "EJB," anyway?

Mark

-Original Message-
From: dIon Gillard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 6:41 PM

Struts Newsgroup (@Basebeans.com) wrote:
>2. I do not want majority of market to go to MS.net. That is why I wish 
>  that more J2EE projects are successful. (And hence I say use EJB 
>sometimes, not always, and consider the pros and cons.)

--
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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[keithBacon]

> 2. I do not want majority of market to go to MS.net. That is why I wish 
>   that more J2EE projects are successful.
Yes yes yes!
What's the proper list for this really interesting discussion? We are
cluttering up the struts list here.
We need opinions from developers who have succeedsed in EJB implementations,
had problems with them & managers who understand the issues.
There are a lot of software envangelists around. The sceptics should be
listened to. It's too complicated to prove a case using theory - the only safe
guide is to find some-one else that has done what you want to do & copy them.
Apart from the lucky few at the real leading edge of technology most of us
trying to write commercial quality systems should be using old(ish) proven
technology & stable releases of products. 
Only a certain(?) percentage of developers are capable of writing decent
systems using new technology. It seems to me these people have used EJB in a
limited way quite OK. And others have made a total mess out of them.
They say about 40% of large projects fail - how many EJB developments succeed?
Managers like developers that get joy from delivering cost effective
functionality rather than using flash technology. Enough already..



--- Struts Newsgroup <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  ===
> Let me clarify and then do some paid work back here.
> 
> 1.I think ejbs are not scalable relative to other Java API.
> 
> 2. I do not want majority of market to go to MS.net. That is why I wish 
>   that more J2EE projects are successful. (And hence I say use EJB 
> sometimes, not always, and consider the pros and cons.)
> 
> Maybe PHBs like EJBs, I don't; and that is my opinion, but maybe not 
> politically correct.
> Vic
> 
> 
> 
> Couball, James wrote:
> 
> > Depends on the project requirements.
> > 
> > Transactions across multiple data sources being a big one.
> > Large and scalable being another.
> > 
> > ...what are the others?
> > 
> > Although his words say something different, maybe Vic is arguing that MS
> > does this better/easier/cheaper than J2EE -- not that J2EE is fundamentally
> > bad. 
> > 
> > James.
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Pu Huang [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:37 AM
> > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > 
> > Depends on the project size.
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Thompson, Darryl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 2:28 PM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > 
> > 
> >  I STRONGLY disagree with this statement. We have been doing EJBs for 2 yrs
> > at my shop. Our Order Entry system  uses EJBs to capture customer orders in
> > 36 cities (US) in every US timezone and we have had nothing but success. By
> > the way there is NO reason to buy BEA weblogic unless you are running EJBs
> > and don't trust JBOSS (which I do). Tomcat is much better at serving
> > webpages the WLS or Websphere, EJBs are one of the cornerstones of J2EE,
> > wake up Vic...
> > 
> > 
> >>-Original Message-
> >>From:   Vic Cekvenich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>Sent:   Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:42 AM
> >>To: Struts Users Mailing List
> >>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>Subject:EJB = bad = MS.net
> >>
> >>Home page of Jakarta has this
> >>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
> >>on this:
> >>http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
> >>
> >>I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. 
> >>Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.
> >>
> >>Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are 
> >>doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC 
> >>is all you need.
> >>
> >>Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the 
> >>next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.
> >>
> >>EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)
> >>
> >>lol,
> >>Vic
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> >><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>For additional commands, e-mail:
> >><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>
> > 
> > --

Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Edward Q. Bridges]

i like EJBs (note that i said "like" and not "love").  i think they have 
some applicability.

however, a peeve of mine about EJBs and the spec is this claim of "location 
independence."  furthermore, the claim to location independence is eroding:  
note that in the 1.1 spec it claims: 
   "The client view of an entity bean is location independent."  (8.1)
and in the corresponding section of the 2.0 spec, this has evolved to the 
more mealy-mouthed:
   "The client of an entity bean may be a remote client or the client may 
be a local client."

the point of location independence is that a client should not be concerned 
about where the method call is taking place.  but, this has been built into 
the spec from day one. ("RemoteException", "RemoteHome", . . . ).

perhaps this is a trivial point, but it is misleading, misrepresentative, 
and is an example (IMHO) of how EJBs are successful at making things more 
complicated than they need to be.

regards
--e--


On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:55:52 +1100, dIon Gillard wrote:

>- location independence




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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[dIon Gillard]

Struts Newsgroup (@Basebeans.com) wrote:

>Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
>From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> ===
>Let me clarify and then do some paid work back here.
>
>1.I think ejbs are not scalable relative to other Java API.
>
Give us something more than an unsubtantiated opinion. Tell us why. Then 
you might have a chance of convincing someone.

>
>
>2. I do not want majority of market to go to MS.net. That is why I wish 
>  that more J2EE projects are successful. (And hence I say use EJB 
>sometimes, not always, and consider the pros and cons.)
>
That's not what you're saying. to quote: "Avoid EJB if you want to 
stay in Java"

>Maybe PHBs like EJBs, I don't; and that is my opinion, but maybe not 
>politically correct.
>
And that's all it is - opinion. How about something more concrete?

>Vic
>
-- 
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
http://www.multitask.com.au/developers




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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[dIon Gillard]

Struts Newsgroup (@Basebeans.com) wrote:

>Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
>From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> ===
>
>Transaction: DBs have it; or you can have a Java Bean, that has 2 
>JavaBeans in it, and all have a "commit()" method. You use EJB for a 
>commit()?
>
This shows a deep understanding of EJB transactions and what they 
provide. The above stuff is coded. EJB is declarative. No coding needed. 
So the above way is lots more effort.

>Security? :
>-Menu based based on a role (using Struts-menu), some items are disabled 
>based on your role.
>-JAAS JDBC Realms (I also get groupID)
>-Based groupID some rows retrieved / selected are editable, some RO and 
>some invisible on your selects. It's called row based security.
>- Status based, based on a status of a row, some fileds become RO.
>
All hand coded and extra work and non-declarative.

>EJBs give you 0 useful security.
>
Personal opinion without any backup.

>EJBs are also very slow to develop, and they distract developers to 
>
Speak for yourself on how slow they are to develop.

>develop technology and not solve a business problems. They are also  
>slow to execute, thus they are only suitable for small applications with 
>
Slow to execute compared to? Show me something that provides comparative 
functionality and see what your speed is.

>low volume (and for organizations where a profit margin is not important 
>or on going cost of operations is not important).
>
More unsubtantiated opinion.

>THere are some with EJB and and some resumes with EJBs are by people who 
>have written a laboratory "hello world" ejb and never actually used them 
>in production deployed where there is volume.
>
There are people with Java on their resumes who've never written a line 
of Java code in their life - I've interviewed them. Your point means 
nothing.

>"Custom" RowSet can code circles around a large team of "EJB developers".
>OK, its a Flame: I have a bridge for sale by a smooth talking sales guy, 
>aka The emperor is not wearing any clothes.
>
Sure it's a flame. One with no ongoing fuel. 'Custom Rowset' also takes 
longer to develop, and I don't know where u get your ejb developers, but 
mine are obviously better :)

>Vic
>
-- 
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
http://www.multitask.com.au/developers




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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[dIon Gillard]

Vic Cekvenich wrote:

> Home page of Jakarta has this
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
> on this:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
>
> I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. 
> Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.
>
> Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are 
> doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC 
> is all you need.
>
> Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on 
> the next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.
>
> EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)

Thanks for the convincing argument.

So tell me how using Struts+Tomcat+RowSet you get:
- location independence
- distributed processing
- failover and clustering support
- transactional object behaviour for non-data classes
- pooled business objects

Ans since you're using SOAP, how do you handle things like massive 
object creation issues on the SOAP Server? Write all that infrastructure 
again? Sure why not.

-- 
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
http://www.multitask.com.au/developers




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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Galbreath, Mark]

Boy, you'd think it was Friday!

Cheers!
Mark

-Original Message-
From: Pete Carapetyan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 3:25 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net


Vic's points are actually becoming quite mainstream, but he gets a big shiny
apple
for making himself such a big target. Many people, including serious dudes,
have
said the same thing, perhaps in a smoother way.

When discussing adding an EJB module to webAppWriter, and one senior Sun
engineer
who shall go un-named suggested to pursue all other pieces first. "Everybody
is
moving away from EJB's right now" is I think the direct quote.

Even critics say that there is always a use for EJB's, if not as wide as
some might
have initially presumed.

"Struts Newsgroup (@Basebeans.com)" wrote:

> Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  ===
> Let me clarify and then do some paid work back here.
>
> 1.I think ejbs are not scalable relative to other Java API.
>
> 2. I do not want majority of market to go to MS.net. That is why I wish
>   that more J2EE projects are successful. (And hence I say use EJB
> sometimes, not always, and consider the pros and cons.)
>
> Maybe PHBs like EJBs, I don't; and that is my opinion, but maybe not
> politically correct.
> Vic
>
> Couball, James wrote:
>
> > Depends on the project requirements.
> >
> > Transactions across multiple data sources being a big one.
> > Large and scalable being another.
> >
> > ...what are the others?
> >
> > Although his words say something different, maybe Vic is arguing that MS
> > does this better/easier/cheaper than J2EE -- not that J2EE is
fundamentally
> > bad.
> >
> > James.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Pu Huang [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:37 AM
> > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> >
> > Depends on the project size.
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Thompson, Darryl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 2:28 PM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> >
> >
> >  I STRONGLY disagree with this statement. We have been doing EJBs for 2
yrs
> > at my shop. Our Order Entry system  uses EJBs to capture customer orders
in
> > 36 cities (US) in every US timezone and we have had nothing but success.
By
> > the way there is NO reason to buy BEA weblogic unless you are running
EJBs
> > and don't trust JBOSS (which I do). Tomcat is much better at serving
> > webpages the WLS or Websphere, EJBs are one of the cornerstones of J2EE,
> > wake up Vic...
> >
> >
> >>-Original Message-
> >>From: Vic Cekvenich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:42 AM
> >>To:   Struts Users Mailing List
> >>Cc:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>Subject:  EJB = bad = MS.net
> >>
> >>Home page of Jakarta has this
> >>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
> >>on this:
> >>http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
> >>
> >>I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems.
> >>Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.
> >>
> >>Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are
> >>doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC
> >>is all you need.
> >>
> >>Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the
> >>next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.
> >>
> >>EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)
> >>
> >>lol,
> >>Vic
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> >><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>For additional commands, e-mail:
> >><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
>
> --
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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Cakalic, James]

rvers/appserv/doc/v40/ae/apidocs/com/ibm/
websphere/command/package-summary.html

> -Original Message-
> From: keithBacon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 1:50 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> 
> 
> > Ever tried to do a distributed transaction across multiple database
> > connections?
> Hardly ever never needed them. When we did we wished for EJB's.
> I'd strongly recommend putting all your data on 1 big 
> relational database so a
> transaction can be managed by it. This is far simpler than 
> EJB's. Of course
> this isn't always possible - but you distribute data when you 
> are forced to -
> not coz it's more high tech fun.
> Example - in the UK big companies buy a copy of the Post 
> Office Address
> database  & some software to call in their systems. Hundreds 
> of companies
> install the same software & get regular database updates. 
> Some time soon
> they'll just do an EJB call to a Post Office server - much better!
> Another example - online checking of credit details - 1 
> credit company services
> hundreds of users - code on it's server must be called from 
> servers all over
> the place.
> These are a requirement of a minority of systems. I fear that 
> over-use of EJB
> by people who aren't skilled/experienced enough is going to 
> give java a bad
> name! & Microsoft is gunning for us. Vic is mostly right - 
> forget EJB's use
> them only if you are driven to it ie. there is a significant 
> real requirement.
> If high volumes are required you will need to performance 
> test your app & have
> expert tuners available etc.
> Time for some-one to complain - this is off topic!
> PS I never used EJB's but looked into them & recommended my 
> company not use
> them & I was right.
> 
> 
> --- "Cakalic, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hmm. And this guy claims to be training other developers 
> using Struts. If
> > this is the kind of ranting that goes on in his book then 
> its no longer a
> > wonder to me why people have blasted it so mercilessly.
> > 
> > Ever tried to do a distributed transaction across multiple database
> > connections? Hard enough without substantial design even 
> when they are all
> > targeting the same physical database. Now try a distributed 
> database. What
> > if your enterprise data is coming from multiple sources? Or 
> you want to
> > involve messaging in the transaction? As for security, you 
> can take it or
> > leave it in the EJB model. But wouldn't be a good idea to 
> design a single
> > access point for such a resource to encapsulate the 
> security policy? And
> > wouldn't it be good for that policy to be declarative? And 
> wouldn't you like
> > the security credentials to be automatically propogated by 
> the ORB? And
> > wouldn't you like the roles to be retrieved from the same 
> mechanism used to
> > authenticate the user in the first place? And why would you 
> write all that
> > when it already exists?
> > 
> > Granted, excessive use of EJB technology just because it is 
> in your pocket
> > is not a good design choice. But claiming it is always a bad choice
> > regardless of circumstances is just as bad if not worse 
> IMHO. Disputing the
> > pros/cons of EJB and related technologies with someone who 
> clearly does not
> > appreciate the systemic issues the technologies are 
> attempting to address is
> > sorta like debating the benefits of MVC with one of those 
> died-in-the-wool,
> > you'll-never-change-my-mind, 
> always-choose-the-most-expedient-route Model 1
> > programmers we've all run up against. They're so 
> indoctrinated with their
> > own BS that they just can't see anything else.
> > 
> > Jim Cakalic
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Struts Newsgroup [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 12:25 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > > From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >  ===
> > > 
> > > Transaction: DBs have it; or you can have a Java Bean, that has 2 
> > > JavaBeans in it, and all have a "commit()" method. You 
> use EJB for a 
> > > commit()?
> > > Security? :
> > > -Menu based based on a role (using Struts-menu), some items 
> > > are disabled 
> 

Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Pete Carapetyan]

Vic's points are actually becoming quite mainstream, but he gets a big shiny apple
for making himself such a big target. Many people, including serious dudes, have
said the same thing, perhaps in a smoother way.

When discussing adding an EJB module to webAppWriter, and one senior Sun engineer
who shall go un-named suggested to pursue all other pieces first. "Everybody is
moving away from EJB's right now" is I think the direct quote.

Even critics say that there is always a use for EJB's, if not as wide as some might
have initially presumed.

"Struts Newsgroup (@Basebeans.com)" wrote:

> Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  ===
> Let me clarify and then do some paid work back here.
>
> 1.I think ejbs are not scalable relative to other Java API.
>
> 2. I do not want majority of market to go to MS.net. That is why I wish
>   that more J2EE projects are successful. (And hence I say use EJB
> sometimes, not always, and consider the pros and cons.)
>
> Maybe PHBs like EJBs, I don't; and that is my opinion, but maybe not
> politically correct.
> Vic
>
> Couball, James wrote:
>
> > Depends on the project requirements.
> >
> > Transactions across multiple data sources being a big one.
> > Large and scalable being another.
> >
> > ...what are the others?
> >
> > Although his words say something different, maybe Vic is arguing that MS
> > does this better/easier/cheaper than J2EE -- not that J2EE is fundamentally
> > bad.
> >
> > James.
> >
> > -----Original Message-
> > From: Pu Huang [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:37 AM
> > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> >
> > Depends on the project size.
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Thompson, Darryl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 2:28 PM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> >
> >
> >  I STRONGLY disagree with this statement. We have been doing EJBs for 2 yrs
> > at my shop. Our Order Entry system  uses EJBs to capture customer orders in
> > 36 cities (US) in every US timezone and we have had nothing but success. By
> > the way there is NO reason to buy BEA weblogic unless you are running EJBs
> > and don't trust JBOSS (which I do). Tomcat is much better at serving
> > webpages the WLS or Websphere, EJBs are one of the cornerstones of J2EE,
> > wake up Vic...
> >
> >
> >>-Original Message-
> >>From: Vic Cekvenich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:42 AM
> >>To:   Struts Users Mailing List
> >>Cc:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>Subject:  EJB = bad = MS.net
> >>
> >>Home page of Jakarta has this
> >>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
> >>on this:
> >>http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
> >>
> >>I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems.
> >>Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.
> >>
> >>Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are
> >>doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC
> >>is all you need.
> >>
> >>Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the
> >>next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.
> >>
> >>EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)
> >>
> >>lol,
> >>Vic
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> >><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>For additional commands, e-mail:
> >><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
>
> --
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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[@Basebeans.com]

Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 ===
Let me clarify and then do some paid work back here.

1.I think ejbs are not scalable relative to other Java API.

2. I do not want majority of market to go to MS.net. That is why I wish 
  that more J2EE projects are successful. (And hence I say use EJB 
sometimes, not always, and consider the pros and cons.)

Maybe PHBs like EJBs, I don't; and that is my opinion, but maybe not 
politically correct.
Vic



Couball, James wrote:

> Depends on the project requirements.
> 
> Transactions across multiple data sources being a big one.
> Large and scalable being another.
> 
> ...what are the others?
> 
> Although his words say something different, maybe Vic is arguing that MS
> does this better/easier/cheaper than J2EE -- not that J2EE is fundamentally
> bad. 
> 
> James.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Pu Huang [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:37 AM
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> 
> Depends on the project size.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Thompson, Darryl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 2:28 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
> 
> 
>  I STRONGLY disagree with this statement. We have been doing EJBs for 2 yrs
> at my shop. Our Order Entry system  uses EJBs to capture customer orders in
> 36 cities (US) in every US timezone and we have had nothing but success. By
> the way there is NO reason to buy BEA weblogic unless you are running EJBs
> and don't trust JBOSS (which I do). Tomcat is much better at serving
> webpages the WLS or Websphere, EJBs are one of the cornerstones of J2EE,
> wake up Vic...
> 
> 
>>-Original Message-
>>From: Vic Cekvenich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:42 AM
>>To:   Struts Users Mailing List
>>Cc:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Subject:  EJB = bad = MS.net
>>
>>Home page of Jakarta has this
>>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
>>on this:
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
>>
>>I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. 
>>Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.
>>
>>Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are 
>>doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC 
>>is all you need.
>>
>>Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the 
>>next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.
>>
>>EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)
>>
>>lol,
>>Vic
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>For additional commands, e-mail:
>><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> 
> --
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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[keithBacon]

Well done & congratulations - I suspect you guys are a good quality outfit!
My criticism of EJB mostly is extrapolated from looking at legacy client server
systems where new technology was rushed into by zealots & left horrible
problems for years.
Did you use them because you needed distributed database or for other reasons?
K.


--- "Thompson, Darryl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  I STRONGLY disagree with this statement. We have been doing EJBs for 2 yrs
> at my shop. Our Order Entry system  uses EJBs to capture customer orders in
> 36 cities (US) in every US timezone and we have had nothing but success. By
> the way there is NO reason to buy BEA weblogic unless you are running EJBs
> and don't trust JBOSS (which I do). Tomcat is much better at serving
> webpages the WLS or Websphere, EJBs are one of the cornerstones of J2EE,
> wake up Vic...
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From:   Vic Cekvenich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent:   Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:42 AM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject:EJB = bad = MS.net
> > 
> > Home page of Jakarta has this
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
> > on this:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
> > 
> > I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. 
> > Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.
> > 
> > Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are 
> > doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC 
> > is all you need.
> > 
> > Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the 
> > next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.
> > 
> > EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)
> > 
> > lol,
> > Vic
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 


=
~~
Search the archive:-
http://www.mail-archive.com/struts-user%40jakarta.apache.org/
~~
Keith Bacon - Looking for struts work - South-East UK.
phone UK 07960 011275

__
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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[@Basebeans.com]

Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 ===
more flame
I just agreed with what was on the home page of Jakarta.
EJB / smejb.
I am not talking about "hello world" ejbs.
Those are features you list. To many features is sort of like building a 
submarine that is also a law mower. A distributed database?
Nice features theoretically. In practice KISS.

Elegant is more flexible, complex is just complex.

We can all have a different opinion. I think the CW is use EJB 
sometimes, not all the time. I would use it less, you would use it more.


(Every one of my class reviews by every students is posted publicly at 
news.basebeans.com)


Cakalic, James wrote:

> Hmm. And this guy claims to be training other developers using Struts. If
> this is the kind of ranting that goes on in his book then its no longer a
> wonder to me why people have blasted it so mercilessly.
> 
> Ever tried to do a distributed transaction across multiple database
> connections? Hard enough without substantial design even when they are all
> targeting the same physical database. Now try a distributed database. What
> if your enterprise data is coming from multiple sources? Or you want to
> involve messaging in the transaction? As for security, you can take it or
> leave it in the EJB model. But wouldn't be a good idea to design a single
> access point for such a resource to encapsulate the security policy? And
> wouldn't it be good for that policy to be declarative? And wouldn't you like
> the security credentials to be automatically propogated by the ORB? And
> wouldn't you like the roles to be retrieved from the same mechanism used to
> authenticate the user in the first place? And why would you write all that
> when it already exists?
> 
> Granted, excessive use of EJB technology just because it is in your pocket
> is not a good design choice. But claiming it is always a bad choice
> regardless of circumstances is just as bad if not worse IMHO. Disputing the
> pros/cons of EJB and related technologies with someone who clearly does not
> appreciate the systemic issues the technologies are attempting to address is
> sorta like debating the benefits of MVC with one of those died-in-the-wool,
> you'll-never-change-my-mind, always-choose-the-most-expedient-route Model 1
> programmers we've all run up against. They're so indoctrinated with their
> own BS that they just can't see anything else.
> 
> Jim Cakalic
> 
> 
>>-Original Message-----
>>From: Struts Newsgroup [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 12:25 PM
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
>>
>>
>>Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
>>From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> ===
>>
>>Transaction: DBs have it; or you can have a Java Bean, that has 2 
>>JavaBeans in it, and all have a "commit()" method. You use EJB for a 
>>commit()?
>>Security? :
>>-Menu based based on a role (using Struts-menu), some items 
>>are disabled 
>>based on your role.
>>-JAAS JDBC Realms (I also get groupID)
>>-Based groupID some rows retrieved / selected are editable, 
>>some RO and 
>>some invisible on your selects. It's called row based security.
>>- Status based, based on a status of a row, some fileds become RO.
>>
>>EJBs give you 0 useful security.
>>
>>EJBs are also very slow to develop, and they distract developers to 
>>develop technology and not solve a business problems. They 
>>are also  
>>slow to execute, thus they are only suitable for small 
>>applications with 
>>low volume (and for organizations where a profit margin is 
>>not important 
>>or on going cost of operations is not important).
>>THere are some with EJB and and some resumes with EJBs are by 
>>people who 
>>have written a laboratory "hello world" ejb and never 
>>actually used them 
>>in production deployed where there is volume.
>>
>>"Custom" RowSet can code circles around a large team of "EJB 
>>developers".
>>OK, its a Flame: I have a bridge for sale by a smooth talking 
>>sales guy, 
>>aka The emperor is not wearing any clothes.
>>
>>Vic
>>
>>Carl Sziebert wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Just a question for those of you who knock EJBs... How is 
>>>
>>it that you
>>
>>>plan to provide transaction management and security within your
>>>applications?  Going straight to the database won't provide that for
>>>you.  This whole debate makes me wonder how many people really
>>>understand Jav

RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Couball, James]

Depends on the project requirements.

Transactions across multiple data sources being a big one.
Large and scalable being another.

...what are the others?

Although his words say something different, maybe Vic is arguing that MS
does this better/easier/cheaper than J2EE -- not that J2EE is fundamentally
bad. 

James.

-Original Message-
From: Pu Huang [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:37 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

Depends on the project size.


-Original Message-
From: Thompson, Darryl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 2:28 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net


 I STRONGLY disagree with this statement. We have been doing EJBs for 2 yrs
at my shop. Our Order Entry system  uses EJBs to capture customer orders in
36 cities (US) in every US timezone and we have had nothing but success. By
the way there is NO reason to buy BEA weblogic unless you are running EJBs
and don't trust JBOSS (which I do). Tomcat is much better at serving
webpages the WLS or Websphere, EJBs are one of the cornerstones of J2EE,
wake up Vic...

> -Original Message-
> From: Vic Cekvenich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:42 AM
> To:   Struts Users Mailing List
> Cc:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject:  EJB = bad = MS.net
> 
> Home page of Jakarta has this
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
> on this:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
> 
> I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. 
> Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.
> 
> Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are 
> doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC 
> is all you need.
> 
> Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the 
> next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.
> 
> EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)
> 
> lol,
> Vic
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[keithBacon]

> Ever tried to do a distributed transaction across multiple database
> connections?
Hardly ever never needed them. When we did we wished for EJB's.
I'd strongly recommend putting all your data on 1 big relational database so a
transaction can be managed by it. This is far simpler than EJB's. Of course
this isn't always possible - but you distribute data when you are forced to -
not coz it's more high tech fun.
Example - in the UK big companies buy a copy of the Post Office Address
database  & some software to call in their systems. Hundreds of companies
install the same software & get regular database updates. Some time soon
they'll just do an EJB call to a Post Office server - much better!
Another example - online checking of credit details - 1 credit company services
hundreds of users - code on it's server must be called from servers all over
the place.
These are a requirement of a minority of systems. I fear that over-use of EJB
by people who aren't skilled/experienced enough is going to give java a bad
name! & Microsoft is gunning for us. Vic is mostly right - forget EJB's use
them only if you are driven to it ie. there is a significant real requirement.
If high volumes are required you will need to performance test your app & have
expert tuners available etc.
Time for some-one to complain - this is off topic!
PS I never used EJB's but looked into them & recommended my company not use
them & I was right.


--- "Cakalic, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hmm. And this guy claims to be training other developers using Struts. If
> this is the kind of ranting that goes on in his book then its no longer a
> wonder to me why people have blasted it so mercilessly.
> 
> Ever tried to do a distributed transaction across multiple database
> connections? Hard enough without substantial design even when they are all
> targeting the same physical database. Now try a distributed database. What
> if your enterprise data is coming from multiple sources? Or you want to
> involve messaging in the transaction? As for security, you can take it or
> leave it in the EJB model. But wouldn't be a good idea to design a single
> access point for such a resource to encapsulate the security policy? And
> wouldn't it be good for that policy to be declarative? And wouldn't you like
> the security credentials to be automatically propogated by the ORB? And
> wouldn't you like the roles to be retrieved from the same mechanism used to
> authenticate the user in the first place? And why would you write all that
> when it already exists?
> 
> Granted, excessive use of EJB technology just because it is in your pocket
> is not a good design choice. But claiming it is always a bad choice
> regardless of circumstances is just as bad if not worse IMHO. Disputing the
> pros/cons of EJB and related technologies with someone who clearly does not
> appreciate the systemic issues the technologies are attempting to address is
> sorta like debating the benefits of MVC with one of those died-in-the-wool,
> you'll-never-change-my-mind, always-choose-the-most-expedient-route Model 1
> programmers we've all run up against. They're so indoctrinated with their
> own BS that they just can't see anything else.
> 
> Jim Cakalic
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Struts Newsgroup [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 12:25 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > 
> > 
> > Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >  ===
> > 
> > Transaction: DBs have it; or you can have a Java Bean, that has 2 
> > JavaBeans in it, and all have a "commit()" method. You use EJB for a 
> > commit()?
> > Security? :
> > -Menu based based on a role (using Struts-menu), some items 
> > are disabled 
> > based on your role.
> > -JAAS JDBC Realms (I also get groupID)
> > -Based groupID some rows retrieved / selected are editable, 
> > some RO and 
> > some invisible on your selects. It's called row based security.
> > - Status based, based on a status of a row, some fileds become RO.
> > 
> > EJBs give you 0 useful security.
> > 
> > EJBs are also very slow to develop, and they distract developers to 
> > develop technology and not solve a business problems. They 
> > are also  
> > slow to execute, thus they are only suitable for small 
> > applications with 
> > low volume (and for organizations where a profit margin is 
> > not important 
> > or on going cost of operations is not important).
> > THere are some wit

RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Pu Huang]

Depends on the project size.


-Original Message-
From: Thompson, Darryl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 2:28 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net


 I STRONGLY disagree with this statement. We have been doing EJBs for 2 yrs
at my shop. Our Order Entry system  uses EJBs to capture customer orders in
36 cities (US) in every US timezone and we have had nothing but success. By
the way there is NO reason to buy BEA weblogic unless you are running EJBs
and don't trust JBOSS (which I do). Tomcat is much better at serving
webpages the WLS or Websphere, EJBs are one of the cornerstones of J2EE,
wake up Vic...

> -Original Message-
> From: Vic Cekvenich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:42 AM
> To:   Struts Users Mailing List
> Cc:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject:  EJB = bad = MS.net
> 
> Home page of Jakarta has this
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
> on this:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
> 
> I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. 
> Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.
> 
> Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are 
> doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC 
> is all you need.
> 
> Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the 
> next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.
> 
> EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)
> 
> lol,
> Vic
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Robert]

Touché Jim. Touché...

- Robert

-Original Message-
From: Cakalic, James [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 1:30 PM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

Hmm. And this guy claims to be training other developers using Struts.
If
this is the kind of ranting that goes on in his book then its no longer
a
wonder to me why people have blasted it so mercilessly.

Ever tried to do a distributed transaction across multiple database
connections? Hard enough without substantial design even when they are
all
targeting the same physical database. Now try a distributed database.
What
if your enterprise data is coming from multiple sources? Or you want to
involve messaging in the transaction? As for security, you can take it
or
leave it in the EJB model. But wouldn't be a good idea to design a
single
access point for such a resource to encapsulate the security policy? And
wouldn't it be good for that policy to be declarative? And wouldn't you
like
the security credentials to be automatically propogated by the ORB? And
wouldn't you like the roles to be retrieved from the same mechanism used
to
authenticate the user in the first place? And why would you write all
that
when it already exists?

Granted, excessive use of EJB technology just because it is in your
pocket
is not a good design choice. But claiming it is always a bad choice
regardless of circumstances is just as bad if not worse IMHO. Disputing
the
pros/cons of EJB and related technologies with someone who clearly does
not
appreciate the systemic issues the technologies are attempting to
address is
sorta like debating the benefits of MVC with one of those
died-in-the-wool,
you'll-never-change-my-mind, always-choose-the-most-expedient-route
Model 1
programmers we've all run up against. They're so indoctrinated with
their
own BS that they just can't see anything else.

Jim Cakalic

> -Original Message-
> From: Struts Newsgroup [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 12:25 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> 
> 
> Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  ===
> 
> Transaction: DBs have it; or you can have a Java Bean, that has 2 
> JavaBeans in it, and all have a "commit()" method. You use EJB for a 
> commit()?
> Security? :
> -Menu based based on a role (using Struts-menu), some items 
> are disabled 
> based on your role.
> -JAAS JDBC Realms (I also get groupID)
> -Based groupID some rows retrieved / selected are editable, 
> some RO and 
> some invisible on your selects. It's called row based security.
> - Status based, based on a status of a row, some fileds become RO.
> 
> EJBs give you 0 useful security.
> 
> EJBs are also very slow to develop, and they distract developers to 
> develop technology and not solve a business problems. They 
> are also  
> slow to execute, thus they are only suitable for small 
> applications with 
> low volume (and for organizations where a profit margin is 
> not important 
> or on going cost of operations is not important).
> THere are some with EJB and and some resumes with EJBs are by 
> people who 
> have written a laboratory "hello world" ejb and never 
> actually used them 
> in production deployed where there is volume.
> 
> "Custom" RowSet can code circles around a large team of "EJB 
> developers".
> OK, its a Flame: I have a bridge for sale by a smooth talking 
> sales guy, 
> aka The emperor is not wearing any clothes.
> 
> Vic
> 
> Carl Sziebert wrote:
> 
> > Just a question for those of you who knock EJBs... How is 
> it that you
> > plan to provide transaction management and security within your
> > applications?  Going straight to the database won't provide that for
> > you.  This whole debate makes me wonder how many people really
> > understand Java and quality application design.  I suggest 
> that anyone
> > with questions get themselves a copy of Pro JSP Site Design 
> by Wrox.  It
> > might help.
> > 
> > This debate has the potential to go on for a while...  
> Sorry, but I just
> > had to add my 2 cents.
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 9:42 AM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > 
> > Home page of Jakarta has this
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
> > on this:
> > 
http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
> 
> I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many leve

RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Cakalic, James]

Hmm. And this guy claims to be training other developers using Struts. If
this is the kind of ranting that goes on in his book then its no longer a
wonder to me why people have blasted it so mercilessly.

Ever tried to do a distributed transaction across multiple database
connections? Hard enough without substantial design even when they are all
targeting the same physical database. Now try a distributed database. What
if your enterprise data is coming from multiple sources? Or you want to
involve messaging in the transaction? As for security, you can take it or
leave it in the EJB model. But wouldn't be a good idea to design a single
access point for such a resource to encapsulate the security policy? And
wouldn't it be good for that policy to be declarative? And wouldn't you like
the security credentials to be automatically propogated by the ORB? And
wouldn't you like the roles to be retrieved from the same mechanism used to
authenticate the user in the first place? And why would you write all that
when it already exists?

Granted, excessive use of EJB technology just because it is in your pocket
is not a good design choice. But claiming it is always a bad choice
regardless of circumstances is just as bad if not worse IMHO. Disputing the
pros/cons of EJB and related technologies with someone who clearly does not
appreciate the systemic issues the technologies are attempting to address is
sorta like debating the benefits of MVC with one of those died-in-the-wool,
you'll-never-change-my-mind, always-choose-the-most-expedient-route Model 1
programmers we've all run up against. They're so indoctrinated with their
own BS that they just can't see anything else.

Jim Cakalic

> -Original Message-
> From: Struts Newsgroup [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 12:25 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> 
> 
> Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
> From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  ===
> 
> Transaction: DBs have it; or you can have a Java Bean, that has 2 
> JavaBeans in it, and all have a "commit()" method. You use EJB for a 
> commit()?
> Security? :
> -Menu based based on a role (using Struts-menu), some items 
> are disabled 
> based on your role.
> -JAAS JDBC Realms (I also get groupID)
> -Based groupID some rows retrieved / selected are editable, 
> some RO and 
> some invisible on your selects. It's called row based security.
> - Status based, based on a status of a row, some fileds become RO.
> 
> EJBs give you 0 useful security.
> 
> EJBs are also very slow to develop, and they distract developers to 
> develop technology and not solve a business problems. They 
> are also  
> slow to execute, thus they are only suitable for small 
> applications with 
> low volume (and for organizations where a profit margin is 
> not important 
> or on going cost of operations is not important).
> THere are some with EJB and and some resumes with EJBs are by 
> people who 
> have written a laboratory "hello world" ejb and never 
> actually used them 
> in production deployed where there is volume.
> 
> "Custom" RowSet can code circles around a large team of "EJB 
> developers".
> OK, its a Flame: I have a bridge for sale by a smooth talking 
> sales guy, 
> aka The emperor is not wearing any clothes.
> 
> Vic
> 
> Carl Sziebert wrote:
> 
> > Just a question for those of you who knock EJBs... How is 
> it that you
> > plan to provide transaction management and security within your
> > applications?  Going straight to the database won't provide that for
> > you.  This whole debate makes me wonder how many people really
> > understand Java and quality application design.  I suggest 
> that anyone
> > with questions get themselves a copy of Pro JSP Site Design 
> by Wrox.  It
> > might help.
> > 
> > This debate has the potential to go on for a while...  
> Sorry, but I just
> > had to add my 2 cents.
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 9:42 AM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: EJB = bad = MS.net
> > 
> > Home page of Jakarta has this
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
> > on this:
> > 
http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
> 
> I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. 
> Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.
> 
> Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are 
> doing something simple or small) and done. This is the swee

RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Thompson, Darryl]

 I STRONGLY disagree with this statement. We have been doing EJBs for 2 yrs
at my shop. Our Order Entry system  uses EJBs to capture customer orders in
36 cities (US) in every US timezone and we have had nothing but success. By
the way there is NO reason to buy BEA weblogic unless you are running EJBs
and don't trust JBOSS (which I do). Tomcat is much better at serving
webpages the WLS or Websphere, EJBs are one of the cornerstones of J2EE,
wake up Vic...

> -Original Message-
> From: Vic Cekvenich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:42 AM
> To:   Struts Users Mailing List
> Cc:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject:  EJB = bad = MS.net
> 
> Home page of Jakarta has this
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
> on this:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
> 
> I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. 
> Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.
> 
> Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are 
> doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC 
> is all you need.
> 
> Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the 
> next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.
> 
> EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)
> 
> lol,
> Vic
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Robert]

EJBs are not bad in and of themselves, and certainly not for newbies.
They are easy to misuse as a lot of people have, and therefore have a
bad rep. Using good design patterns can help in a good EJB solution.
They solve some problems, and yes create others. Also as mentioned on
the JavaLobby website, "J2EE is not spelled Eee Jay Bee". JSP, Servlets,
JMS, and EJB all fall under the J2EE umbrella. Lest we forget that
Tomcat is the reference implementation of the J2EE JSP/Servlet APIs...

I've never been a big fan of J2EE security, but it IS abstracted away
from the developer. The biggest help is in transactions, being
declarative and in clustering the EJBs (yes I know you can cluster
webservers and servlet containers, but the code runs in one VM as
opposed to being _able_ to run across multiple in the same execution
sequence).

The alternative you suggest, Struts + Tomcat + RowSet, also has it's
place, and is more akin to the way the M$ petstore is built (not the
same, but more similar). I see no object model in the alternative, which
is useful in many, many environments.

Most public webapps probably don't need middleware, true. But in some
corporate apps (not all but some) middleware is a really helpful thing.
And saying that SOAP is Middleware, or a middleware alternative is like
saying SOAP can replace EJB. It's just showing ignorance of the
technology. SOAP is a communication mechanism like RMI, DCE, RPC, not a
middleware mechanism like EJB, JMS, etc. 

I read the links posted, and in the one case it goes back to my earlier
statement, misuse or misunderstanding of the technology. What EJB the
right solution? Maybe not, then again it might have performed great if
designed/built right. 

To blatantly disregard something as 'bad' doesn't help, and just sounds
like Microsoft when they said their petstore was better than Sun's. It
misses the point and says nothing.

- Robert

-Original Message-
From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:42 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: EJB = bad = MS.net

Home page of Jakarta has this
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
on this:
http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html

I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. 
Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.

Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are 
doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC 
is all you need.

Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the

next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.

EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)

lol,
Vic



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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Dan Trevino]

The point of EJB security and transactions is to abstract those pieces
to make them vendor neutral.  If you write them correctly, you'll have
your security/transactions on JBoss, Weblogic, Websphere, whatever. 
Sure EJB's have some additional overhead, but that is the price you pay
for abstraction.  

This reminds me of the J2EE Pet Store vs. .Net Pet Store flare up a
while back.  Microsoft chose to execute most of their queries using
stored procedures.  Of course it was faster than using a pure Java
approach.  But they gave up all of the flexibility that Java offers. 
Similarly, if you use app server specific security, you will no doubt
lose portability.

I'm no fan of EJB, but IMO they have their place.  Its up to the
architect to decide what is best for their application and which
trade-offs to make.

dan


On Wed, 2002-02-20 at 13:22, Edward Q. Bridges wrote:
> i believe that if you are using jboss as an app-server, you can shut off 
> the ejb service and still have security and transaction management (not to 
> mention, jndi, web application support, mail services, logging services, 
> etc. etc.).
> 
> my .2 added to your .2
> 
> --e--
> 
> 
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:56:10 -0800, Carl Sziebert wrote:
> 
> >Just a question for those of you who knock EJBs... How is it that you
> >plan to provide transaction management and security within your
> >applications?  Going straight to the database won't provide that for
> >you.  This whole debate makes me wonder how many people really
> >understand Java and quality application design.  I suggest that anyone
> >with questions get themselves a copy of Pro JSP Site Design by Wrox.  It
> >might help.
> >
> >This debate has the potential to go on for a while...  Sorry, but I just
> >had to add my 2 cents.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Dan Trevino
bluemagnet, llc
http://bluemagnet.com/

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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net

[@Basebeans.com]

Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 ===

Transaction: DBs have it; or you can have a Java Bean, that has 2 
JavaBeans in it, and all have a "commit()" method. You use EJB for a 
commit()?
Security? :
-Menu based based on a role (using Struts-menu), some items are disabled 
based on your role.
-JAAS JDBC Realms (I also get groupID)
-Based groupID some rows retrieved / selected are editable, some RO and 
some invisible on your selects. It's called row based security.
- Status based, based on a status of a row, some fileds become RO.

EJBs give you 0 useful security.

EJBs are also very slow to develop, and they distract developers to 
develop technology and not solve a business problems. They are also  
slow to execute, thus they are only suitable for small applications with 
low volume (and for organizations where a profit margin is not important 
or on going cost of operations is not important).
THere are some with EJB and and some resumes with EJBs are by people who 
have written a laboratory "hello world" ejb and never actually used them 
in production deployed where there is volume.

"Custom" RowSet can code circles around a large team of "EJB developers".
OK, its a Flame: I have a bridge for sale by a smooth talking sales guy, 
aka The emperor is not wearing any clothes.

Vic

Carl Sziebert wrote:

> Just a question for those of you who knock EJBs... How is it that you
> plan to provide transaction management and security within your
> applications?  Going straight to the database won't provide that for
> you.  This whole debate makes me wonder how many people really
> understand Java and quality application design.  I suggest that anyone
> with questions get themselves a copy of Pro JSP Site Design by Wrox.  It
> might help.
> 
> This debate has the potential to go on for a while...  Sorry, but I just
> had to add my 2 cents.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 9:42 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: EJB = bad = MS.net
> 
> Home page of Jakarta has this
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
> on this:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html
> 
> I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. 
> Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.
> 
> Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are 
> doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC 
> is all you need.
> 
> Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the
> 
> next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.
> 
> EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)
> 
> lol,
> Vic
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 


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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Edward Q. Bridges]

i believe that if you are using jboss as an app-server, you can shut off 
the ejb service and still have security and transaction management (not to 
mention, jndi, web application support, mail services, logging services, 
etc. etc.).

my .2 added to your .2

--e--


On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:56:10 -0800, Carl Sziebert wrote:

>Just a question for those of you who knock EJBs... How is it that you
>plan to provide transaction management and security within your
>applications?  Going straight to the database won't provide that for
>you.  This whole debate makes me wonder how many people really
>understand Java and quality application design.  I suggest that anyone
>with questions get themselves a copy of Pro JSP Site Design by Wrox.  It
>might help.
>
>This debate has the potential to go on for a while...  Sorry, but I just
>had to add my 2 cents.
>




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RE: EJB = bad = MS.net

[Carl Sziebert]

Just a question for those of you who knock EJBs... How is it that you
plan to provide transaction management and security within your
applications?  Going straight to the database won't provide that for
you.  This whole debate makes me wonder how many people really
understand Java and quality application design.  I suggest that anyone
with questions get themselves a copy of Pro JSP Site Design by Wrox.  It
might help.

This debate has the potential to go on for a while...  Sorry, but I just
had to add my 2 cents.

-Original Message-
From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 9:42 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: EJB = bad = MS.net

Home page of Jakarta has this
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
on this:
http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html

I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. 
Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.

Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are 
doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC 
is all you need.

Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the

next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.

EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)

lol,
Vic



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EJB = bad = MS.net

[Vic Cekvenich]

Home page of Jakarta has this
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2
on this:
http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html

I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. 
Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java.

Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are 
doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC 
is all you need.

Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the 
next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net.

EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP)

lol,
Vic



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