RE: [biofuel] Washing the biodiesel
Todd, I'm getting a very good glycerine drop and within two hours of adding the methoxide. It seems, from my limited perspective, that the reaction is appearing to be complete. I did not get any third layer. I did add additional methoxide to measure completion and got a lightly discoloured bottom layer of, I believe, methanol. I'm hoping that reducing the lye from 3.5g/l to 3.1g/l and/or reducing first stage mixing time to avoid, perhaps, backsplitting will help increase yield after the wash. I don't really want to get exotic, yet. If the standard process works for others it should work for me, yah? Mike > -Original Message- > From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 5:14 AM > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Washing the biodiesel > > > Mike, > > Don't know if this helps. Generally, if a reaction has not gone to > completion, then the remaining mono- and di-glycerides that didn't finish > cracking will emulsify the mix and make mayonaise. > > Sometimes, if the volume of mono-glycerides and di-glycerides are not too > much, a little phosphoric acid can break the emulsion. > > Still, after the emulsion has broken, you need to run a liter of what you > thought was biodiesel through the process steps again to see if anymore > glycerin drops out. > > More often than not, you might just have to let the mayonaise set > for a few > weeks. Sometimes even considerable amounts of acid won't break an > emulsion. > Time alone will generally reduce your mayonaise layer's depth, permitting > you to recover much or most of the oil. > > We have used vinegar in the past. This is fine for neutralizing when you > know the reaction has completed. If it hasn't, and you've added > vinegar but > the emulsion doesn't break, you'll probably end up having to go to a > stronger acid, such as phosphoric. > > Mixing "organic" and "inorganic" acids will probably give you a very milky > looking top layer after the mayonaise emulsion breaks. Not that > it matters, > as the oil will need to be run through its paces again anyway, > for it is not > yet biodiesel in good standing. > > Test everything in small batches first, then go with what works. > > Make sure you dilute your acid down to about 12-15%. Working with higher > percents won't offer any better results in the long run. > > Todd > Appal Energy > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - Original Message - > From: "Mike Brownstone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 3:13 AM > Subject: [biofuel] Washing the biodiesel > > > > I'm struggling with the washing of the biodiesel. I get a low return > (50%) > > and a lot of creamy mayonnaise. > > > > During the processing I get a good glycerin drop (15%) using > Foolproof on > > used veggie oil. Everything looks good until the wash when I add the > > vinegar and water to the biodiesel start the bubbling and watch the mayo > > form. > > > > There is very little water in the processing and my > understanding is that > > any excess methanol or lye will wash out. Could the temperature of my > > washing water or composition ( tap or faucet water from municipality) be > the > > cause? > > > > Stuck on the final stage!!! > > > > Mike > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Washing the biodiesel
Thanks for your info. It seems to me that the return after the wash should not loose more than a few percent of the esters. A 60% return seems low and adds to the cost significantly. I'm playing around with reducing lye and the reaction time for first stage. Please let me know if you come up with something. Mike > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 5:31 AM > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Washing the biodiesel > > > > Hi Mike. There's a lot of excess flap on this site, sometimes not much > useful flap. Anyway, I haven't been producing bio-d very long but my best > result after washing has been about 60% bio-d. Not sure if I was having a > good day or if I did something wrong those days but my tractor ran without > a skip. Be sure that you allow the temperature of your wash water and the > temp. of your bio-d to be as close to equilibrium as possible before > washing. Be sure and check the PH level of your bio-d to > compensate for any > excess lye or methanol. I usually allow my bio-d and wash water to set up > at least 12hrs before mixing to allow the temp. to equalize. On a nice > sunny day, I'll let the mixture set outside in the warm sun to aid in > separation (I'm still making small batches). Maybe one of the more > experienced producers can offer more suggestions. > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Washing the biodiesel
Mike, Don't know if this helps. Generally, if a reaction has not gone to completion, then the remaining mono- and di-glycerides that didn't finish cracking will emulsify the mix and make mayonaise. Sometimes, if the volume of mono-glycerides and di-glycerides are not too much, a little phosphoric acid can break the emulsion. Still, after the emulsion has broken, you need to run a liter of what you thought was biodiesel through the process steps again to see if anymore glycerin drops out. More often than not, you might just have to let the mayonaise set for a few weeks. Sometimes even considerable amounts of acid won't break an emulsion. Time alone will generally reduce your mayonaise layer's depth, permitting you to recover much or most of the oil. We have used vinegar in the past. This is fine for neutralizing when you know the reaction has completed. If it hasn't, and you've added vinegar but the emulsion doesn't break, you'll probably end up having to go to a stronger acid, such as phosphoric. Mixing "organic" and "inorganic" acids will probably give you a very milky looking top layer after the mayonaise emulsion breaks. Not that it matters, as the oil will need to be run through its paces again anyway, for it is not yet biodiesel in good standing. Test everything in small batches first, then go with what works. Make sure you dilute your acid down to about 12-15%. Working with higher percents won't offer any better results in the long run. Todd Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Mike Brownstone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 3:13 AM Subject: [biofuel] Washing the biodiesel > I'm struggling with the washing of the biodiesel. I get a low return (50%) > and a lot of creamy mayonnaise. > > During the processing I get a good glycerin drop (15%) using Foolproof on > used veggie oil. Everything looks good until the wash when I add the > vinegar and water to the biodiesel start the bubbling and watch the mayo > form. > > There is very little water in the processing and my understanding is that > any excess methanol or lye will wash out. Could the temperature of my > washing water or composition ( tap or faucet water from municipality) be the > cause? > > Stuck on the final stage!!! > > Mike > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Washing the biodiesel
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Hi Mike. There's a lot of excess flap on this site, sometimes not much >useful flap. I wonder what that's apropos of. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Washing the biodiesel
Hi Mike. There's a lot of excess flap on this site, sometimes not much useful flap. Anyway, I haven't been producing bio-d very long but my best result after washing has been about 60% bio-d. Not sure if I was having a good day or if I did something wrong those days but my tractor ran without a skip. Be sure that you allow the temperature of your wash water and the temp. of your bio-d to be as close to equilibrium as possible before washing. Be sure and check the PH level of your bio-d to compensate for any excess lye or methanol. I usually allow my bio-d and wash water to set up at least 12hrs before mixing to allow the temp. to equalize. On a nice sunny day, I'll let the mixture set outside in the warm sun to aid in separation (I'm still making small batches). Maybe one of the more experienced producers can offer more suggestions. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> The Nissan Sentra Everything but compact http://NissanDriven.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/3vsIKC/txlCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Washing the biodiesel
Mike I have the same problem, I have been washing with vinegar first for about 3 hours and letting it settle for 8 hours before i drain off the vinegar and add the water, then I only use 1 gallon of water (room temp) to 40 gallons of biofuel. wash for 1 hour and let settle for 4 hoursdrain off any excess water and add 3 gallons of room temp water. wash for 8 hours and let settle for 8 hours, drain off any excess water and reheat fuel to 250 degrees F and hold until all steam bubbles are gone. Let it cool off and decant biodiesel, it shoul be fairly clear and when you run it through a filter it will clear up even more. Hope this helps. Eric - Original Message - From: Mike Brownstone To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 2:13 AM Subject: [biofuel] Washing the biodiesel I'm struggling with the washing of the biodiesel. I get a low return (50%) and a lot of creamy mayonnaise. During the processing I get a good glycerin drop (15%) using Foolproof on used veggie oil. Everything looks good until the wash when I add the vinegar and water to the biodiesel start the bubbling and watch the mayo form. There is very little water in the processing and my understanding is that any excess methanol or lye will wash out. Could the temperature of my washing water or composition ( tap or faucet water from municipality) be the cause? Stuck on the final stage!!! Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
