Re: [OSM-talk] Flight "paths" in OSM
On 10/10/2010 10:29, Richard Weait wrote: On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Dmitri Lebedev wrote: Hi all, please, look at this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/80906020 It's a flight "path" from one airport to another. It's absolutely not real (aircrafts fly along routes and navpoints more like "zig-zags", not the straight grand circle ways). Imo this data is garbage. None of these points reflect any real data. A grand circle between 2 random airports in the world can be calculated, but there's no need to store all the calculated grand circles in the OSM db. Any other opinions? Agreed. That's a new account. I'll send a note to the new mapper. I've seen other flight paths in the data too, so he's not the only one. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flight "paths" in OSM
Charlie Ferrero wrote: > On 10/10/2010 10:29, Richard Weait wrote: >> >> Agreed. That's a new account. I'll send a note to the new mapper. >> > I've seen other flight paths in the data too, so he's not the only one. Maybe add some info to this wiki page? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Aeroways#Flight_paths Greets, Floris ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] What are my options for printing a large-scale complete map?
Next time I go downtown to map I'd like a printout to take notes on. But there's already too much mapped to all show up at maximum zoom: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=28.54212&lon=-81.379046&zoom=18&layers=M Are there any simple Windows programs or constantly-updated websites that will give me more detail? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What are my options for printing a large-scale complete map?
While I miss a "perfect" map style for that, yet: walking-papers.org could be your point. regards Peter On 10.10.2010 14:18, Nathan Edgars II wrote: Next time I go downtown to map I'd like a printout to take notes on. But there's already too much mapped to all show up at maximum zoom: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=28.54212&lon=-81.379046&zoom=18&layers=M Are there any simple Windows programs or constantly-updated websites that will give me more detail? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What are my options for printing a large-scale complete map?
Peter Wendorff wrote: > > While I miss a "perfect" map style for that, yet: walking-papers.org > could be your point. > That just uses existing styles, meaning it has nothing beyond zoom 18. The ones hosted by Cloudmade are also out of date. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/What-are-my-options-for-printing-a-large-scale-complete-map-tp5620194p5620239.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What are my options for printing a large-scale complete map?
Maperitive will zoom to level 19 rather than 18 gives a bit more detail. You can modify the rule set to control what is displayed. I have seen someone use JOSM on a laptop working with a stored local file to do this. This has the advantage that you can just upload the changes directly. Cheerio John On 10 October 2010 08:18, Nathan Edgars II wrote: > Next time I go downtown to map I'd like a printout to take notes on. > But there's already too much mapped to all show up at maximum zoom: > http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=28.54212&lon=-81.379046&zoom=18&layers=M > Are there any simple Windows programs or constantly-updated websites > that will give me more detail? > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flight "paths" in OSM
Yeah, mapping routes between airports is a bad idea. On the other hand, it might be feasible to map approaches to airports as shown on official diagrams. There are also "avigation easements" that might be relevant here. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Flight-paths-in-OSM-tp5619787p5620343.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flight "paths" in OSM
If there is any interest of mapping airline routes, than do it with a relation between the airport nodes, as great circles can easily be calculated between two known positions. Making lines on the map is easy enough when you have the end positions, and nodes in between is not necessary at all. On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: > > Yeah, mapping routes between airports is a bad idea. > > On the other hand, it might be feasible to map approaches to airports as > shown on official diagrams. There are also "avigation easements" that might > be relevant here. > -- > View this message in context: > http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Flight-paths-in-OSM-tp5619787p5620343.html > Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flight "paths" in OSM
Even a relation adds no information to the map, other than perhaps "these are points on the surface of the earth which allow for an unobstructed atmospheric path to be calculated between". There are about 28,000 aeroway=aerodrome tags, and 12,000 runways tagged. So if we wish to add relations between all possible airports, that represents about 72,000,000 great circle relations that would need to be added to cover them all. From: Aun Johnsen Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:34 AM To: OpenStreetMap Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Flight "paths" in OSM If there is any interest of mapping airline routes, than do it with a relation between the airport nodes, as great circles can easily be calculated between two known positions. Making lines on the map is easy enough when you have the end positions, and nodes in between is not necessary at all. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flight "paths" in OSM
Why iwould it be not useful to public transport routing? On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Mike N. wrote: > Even a relation adds no information to the map, other than perhaps "these > are points on the surface of the earth which allow for an unobstructed > atmospheric path to be calculated between". > > There are about 28,000 aeroway=aerodrome tags, and 12,000 runways > tagged. So if we wish to add relations between all possible airports, that > represents about 72,000,000 great circle relations that would need to be > added to cover them all. > > From: Aun Johnsen > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:34 AM > To: OpenStreetMap > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Flight "paths" in OSM > If there is any interest of mapping airline routes, than do it with a > relation between the airport nodes, as great circles can easily be > calculated between two known positions. Making lines on the map is easy > enough when you have the end positions, and nodes in between is not > necessary at all. > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > -- Fabio Alessandro Locati Home: Segrate, Milan, Italy (GMT +1) Phone: +39-328-3799681 MSN/Jabber/E-Mail: fabioloc...@gmail.com PGP Fingerprint: 5525 8555 213C 19EB 25F2 A047 2AD2 BE67 0F01 CA61 Involved in: KDE, OpenStreetMap, Ubuntu, Wikimedia ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flight "paths" in OSM
As someone else mentioned earlier, the actual routes that the planes follow are usually not these shortest-distance routes. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] Flight "paths" in OSM >From :mailto:fabioloc...@gmail.com Date :Sun Oct 10 10:12:35 America/Chicago 2010 Why iwould it be not useful to public transport routing? On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Mike N. wrote: > Even a relation adds no information to the map, other than perhaps "these > are points on the surface of the earth which allow for an unobstructed > atmospheric path to be calculated between". > > There are about 28,000 aeroway=aerodrome tags, and 12,000 runways > tagged. So if we wish to add relations between all possible airports, that > represents about 72,000,000 great circle relations that would need to be > added to cover them all. > > From: Aun Johnsen > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:34 AM > To: OpenStreetMap > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Flight "paths" in OSM > If there is any interest of mapping airline routes, than do it with a > relation between the airport nodes, as great circles can easily be > calculated between two known positions. Making lines on the map is easy > enough when you have the end positions, and nodes in between is not > necessary at all. > > >___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > -- Fabio Alessandro Locati Home: Segrate, Milan, Italy (GMT +1) Phone: +39-328-3799681 MSN/Jabber/E-Mail: fabioloc...@gmail.com PGP Fingerprint: 5525 8555 213C 19EB 25F2 A047 2AD2 BE67 0F01 CA61 Involved in: KDE, OpenStreetMap, Ubuntu, Wikimedia ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flight "paths" in OSM
In the case of air travel the time tables and the locations of the airports is enough information. Possibly how many hours before the flight leaves, passengers are expected in the airport might also be interesting information and maybe how long it takes on average to gather luggage on the other side. What the airplane does while it goes from one airport to another is not exactly relevant. Although it would seem strange to route a complete itinerary containing an airplane route. So many variables. At best one could give a recommendation with the airplane as the last thing in the list. Maybe some suggestion which lines make the connection to the endpoint and what the limitations are (only until 23h, for example). Jo 2010/10/10 Fabio Alessandro Locati > Why iwould it be not useful to public transport routing? > > On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Mike N. wrote: > > Even a relation adds no information to the map, other than perhaps "these > > are points on the surface of the earth which allow for an unobstructed > > atmospheric path to be calculated between". > > > >There are about 28,000 aeroway=aerodrome tags, and 12,000 runways > > tagged. So if we wish to add relations between all possible airports, > that > > represents about 72,000,000 great circle relations that would need to be > > added to cover them all. > > > > From: Aun Johnsen > > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:34 AM > > To: OpenStreetMap > > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Flight "paths" in OSM > > If there is any interest of mapping airline routes, than do it with a > > relation between the airport nodes, as great circles can easily be > > calculated between two known positions. Making lines on the map is easy > > enough when you have the end positions, and nodes in between is not > > necessary at all. > > > > > > ___ > > talk mailing list > > talk@openstreetmap.org > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > > > > > > > -- > Fabio Alessandro Locati > > Home: Segrate, Milan, Italy (GMT +1) > Phone: +39-328-3799681 > MSN/Jabber/E-Mail: fabioloc...@gmail.com > > PGP Fingerprint: 5525 8555 213C 19EB 25F2 A047 2AD2 BE67 0F01 CA61 > > Involved in: KDE, OpenStreetMap, Ubuntu, Wikimedia > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flight "paths" in OSM
On 10-10-2010 17:44, j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: As someone else mentioned earlier, the actual routes that the planes follow are usually not these shortest-distance routes. And can change when circumstances require it. These kinds of fluidic concepts like flight paths are impossible to capture in a fixed path, and fixed paths is all that OSM can offer, currently. -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Doing God's Work / Oliver Kuehn interviews Jack Dangermond
maning sambale schrieb am 07.10.2010 09:10: Is this the ArcGIS extension Jack mentioned? http://taginfo.openstreetmap.de/tags/created_by=ArcGIS%20Exporter 2.55% of the created_by values nope, presumably... http://users.rowan.edu/~reiser/osm/ Alex -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Alexrk2 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kartenwerkstatt/Blog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] talk Digest, Vol 74, Issue 26
On Sun, 10 Oct 2010 22:44:14 +0700, wrote: Why iwould it be not useful to public transport routing? It can be barely useful. 1. For flights in general, for end users of public transport, it's enough to match flight schedules with timetables. If someone wants to use route optimizing algorithms, he can just make a 1 section way between the 2 APTs and add some cost to this way. IN HIS OWN DB. (OSM API obviously has no routing facilities). 2. Flight tracks look like this: http://navmap.ryba4.com (it's my svg map from 2006) This data can be imported, given it came with a proper permission from a proper source. Storing approaches can make sense if air agencies could update them regularly. They often chane: navaids get closed for maintenance, flight paths are moved here or there, approaches procedures adjusted, etc. Actually, here I have a suggestion to OSM to talk more to X-Plane flight simulator team. They use airnav data, which can be imported, and have some airports blueprints in good resolution. OSM could contribute to their global scenery. Anyway, 3. You can't get a better estimation of flight timing or any other parameter from mapping the actual flight track: flights are often delayed much longer than the precision that you can get. 4. REAL FLIGHT PATHS CHANGE FROM FLIGHT TO FLIGHT. For instance, cross-atlantic routes change hour to hour to get advantage of wind currents (and to not fly upwind, which can be up to 60 knots in the upper atmosphere). Makes no sense to draw just one of them. To the guys who draw the non-existing data such as grand circles, I'd suggest (assuming they want to use it in a meaningful way) to use, say, OpenLayers, calculate the points and keep them in JS while visualising with canvas. -- ry...@ryba4.com http://ryba4.com icq 335635 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Doing God's Work / Oliver Kuehn interviews Jack Dangermond
Frederik, you held a presentation at the "Amtliche Daten vs. OpenStreetMap" track at the Intergeo? Could you tell us something about it? Alex -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Alexrk2 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kartenwerkstatt/Blog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Anonymous edits on OpenStreetMap through Tor
If we wanted to explicitly support this kind of thing then putting OSM-related servers on i2p might be useful. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Doing God's Work / Oliver Kuehn interviews Jack Dangermond
Hi, Alexrk wrote: Frederik, you held a presentation at the "Amtliche Daten vs. OpenStreetMap" track at the Intergeo? Could you tell us something about it? There was a session with three talks of 20 minutes and then a combined questions block of another 30 minutes; the whole session was placed at the end of the last day. The three speakers were Mr Ludwig from the Bavarian ministry of finance (they are the keepers of Bavarian geodata), Mr McCutcheon of DDS, a large commercial geodata Navteq reseller and provider of other commercial geodata, and myself. The mood was amicable; I think every one of us had some respect for what the others did. Ludwig presented an impressive array of geodata held by the state of Bavaria - stuff that we could never dream of collecting (and lots of stuff that we wouldn't take even if offered for free, lots of stuff that could never be run in a crowdsourcd fashion). They have the kind of geodata that allows farmers to plan which crops to plant where, the have geological data, a precise DGM, and much more. Compared to what they have, OSM is more of a "mass market dataset". They must be spending an immense amount of manpower on developing and complying with standards, not only between the different federal states in Germany but also internationally. It is important to note that whatever they collect, they usually collect that for the whole state of Bavaria - not only for a few hotspots; and with 70,000 sq km Bavaria is not exactly small. Last not least, their data is often an ingredient in legal disputes of all sorts, so it needs to be "official". But between the lines you could also hear that Ludwig seemed a bit unhappy that all this data they have was put to relatively little use, and was generating relatively little headlines - obviously (to me) because it was not freely available. He said that they're already giving full access to their data to schools and he was very open to cooperating with OSM, however it was clear that he was hoping for OSM to settle down a bit and become more reliable/established, ideally use a fixed data model and so on. After that, I gave a brief introduction into OSM (my slides are available at http://www.geofabrik.de/media/2010-10-07-intergeo-osm.pdf), highlighting how quite a number of government agencies in Germany are now using OSM data and asking the question why (could it be that official data is difficult to get your hands on even if you are the German Federal Ministry of Economics and Technology - who have recently launched a map displaying broadband availability based on OSM?). I openly acknowledged that OSM has its disadvantages - mainly that we do not offer any quality assurances and that coverage is often deep not broad. In the last talk, McCutcheon provided some in-depth comparisons between commercial data and OSM data (and some government sources too), acknowledging that OSM was often superior to commercial data for leisure uses, but, as expected, lacking basic data in rurual areas. He claimed that roads in OSM were often lacking attribution (I didn't have a chance to discuss - I assume that for him, attribution would mean a minimum basic set of attributes including stuff like maxspeed because name and highway type are present in the majority of OSM roads). He named the share-alike license as a major drawback, but concluded that any GIS project needs to carefully analyze the needs and then decide which - OSM, commercial, or governmental - set of geodata might be best suited. In the questions session I told the story of a German fire department who are now using OSM data in addition to their other stuff after they recently were unable to fight a fire that had broken out in a building under a power line and they couldn't find out the operator of the power line in time. After the fact, they were told that OSM properly had the operator of the power line noted which got them interested. I used that example to make the point that while the government may have all sorts of cool data, even the government doesn't know where to find it. Ludwig said that they're working on consolidating all the metadata they have (what with EU projects like INSPIRE etc.) so "in a year or so" nobody should have an excuse not to find the right dataset for the information they're after; to which McCutcheon replied that finding the right data for people was his core business model and he guessed that it might take a while longer than a year before you can easily find out where to get which data from. We parted as friends; I'm sure that there will be further cooperation. One of the problems Ludwig had with OSM was that for him and his administration, OSM didn't have "a face" - he would really like to have one person to talk to and to build relationships with. Consequently, we have decided to make Joachim Kast (who already attended the recent Geodata summit at the Ministry for the Interior) our (G
Re: [OSM-talk] Flight "paths" in OSM
On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 12:37 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: > On the other hand, it might be feasible to map approaches to airports as > shown on official diagrams. There are also "avigation easements" that might > be relevant here. Approaches (informally referred to as "flight paths"): definitely worth mapping. I say that because they appear in my local street directory, presumably as somewhere you wouldn't want to live. I definitely wouldn't map other flight paths/routes. The scope of OSM is already massive and difficult to cope with, without this unstoppable scope creep. On the other hand, an "OpenAirMap" project would be interesting. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
