Re: [talk-au] Melbourne Intersections with duplicate ways and turn lanes

[Benjamin Ceravolo]

On Wed, 15 Sept 2021 at 13:59, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 15 Sept 2021 at 09:57,  wrote:
>
>> Thanks Andrew,
>>
>> I’ve reached out to the user on a changeset, and will hopefully have a
>> good conversation about it.
>>
> There's a good chance they won't respond, but best to still give them the
> chance, if you don't hear back and there's no further objection to
> re-mapping these based on the split way only where physically separated,
> then you can go ahead and correct them on the map. If they continue to
> replace things based on their style, without responding to your attempts to
> raise concerns and there is consensus here that their mapping is harmful,
> then it can be raised through DWG as a last resort.
>

They have in the past replied to me quring one of their edies in
question. Changeset:
108100471 | OpenStreetMap




>
>>  In the meantime, I’ve found about 30-50 intersections with these
>> duplicate ways and lanes. Would it be useful to add notes, or fix me tags
>> to those intersections? I’m wary about flooding any feedback channels with
>> many instances of the same problem, but it could help keep track of where
>> work is needed?
>>
>
> You could do either. Personally I usually reserve notes for when I need
> something checked on the ground, but notes can be used as you've suggested
> here.
>
>> ___
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>
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Re: [talk-au] Melbourne Intersections with duplicate ways and turn lanes

[Andrew Harvey]

On Wed, 15 Sept 2021 at 09:57,  wrote:

> Thanks Andrew,
>
> I’ve reached out to the user on a changeset, and will hopefully have a
> good conversation about it.
>
There's a good chance they won't respond, but best to still give them the
chance, if you don't hear back and there's no further objection to
re-mapping these based on the split way only where physically separated,
then you can go ahead and correct them on the map. If they continue to
replace things based on their style, without responding to your attempts to
raise concerns and there is consensus here that their mapping is harmful,
then it can be raised through DWG as a last resort.


>  In the meantime, I’ve found about 30-50 intersections with these
> duplicate ways and lanes. Would it be useful to add notes, or fix me tags
> to those intersections? I’m wary about flooding any feedback channels with
> many instances of the same problem, but it could help keep track of where
> work is needed?
>

You could do either. Personally I usually reserve notes for when I need
something checked on the ground, but notes can be used as you've suggested
here.

>
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Re: [talk-au] Melbourne Intersections with duplicate ways and turn lanes

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 15 Sept 2021 at 10:00,  wrote:

> In the meantime, I’ve found about 30-50 intersections with these duplicate
> ways and lanes ... help keep track of where work is needed?
>
How about just copying the link address to the problem spot, then pasting
that into a Word document or similar, so you can find them easily?

I've done that before & it works well to then either copy & paste that
link, or even just click on it.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Melbourne Intersections with duplicate ways and turn lanes

[me]

Thanks Andrew,

I've reached out to the user on a changeset, and will hopefully have a 
good conversation about it.


In the meantime, I've found about 30-50 intersections with these 
duplicate ways and lanes. Would it be useful to add notes, or fix me 
tags to those intersections? I'm wary about flooding any feedback 
channels with many instances of the same problem, but it could help keep 
track of where work is needed?


D.

On 2021-09-13 00:26, Andrew Harvey wrote:

Thanks I see what you mean by these changes (much easier to visualise 
in OSMCha).


Usually I see this as an older style mapping, before turn lane tagging 
was more common and sometimes done for routing so that people were 
warned earlier. But these days it's much better to use turn:lanes 
tagging and only split the way at the point where you can no longer 
physically change lanes.


It's possible to revert changesets, but it's not always 
straightforward.


Leaving a changeset comment is the best first step, as they might not 
be aware of standard practice and other tags like turn:lanes.


On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 08:07,  wrote:

Thanks Andrew, that was my last understanding as well. In particular, 
modeling right hand turns as separate, curved ways when there is no 
separate roadway.


Here are of changesets which introduce the types of issues I mentioned. 
They mostly seem to be around dual carriageways.


https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/108100471#map=15/-37.8844/145.2793

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/82795947#map=14/-37.9685/145.0608 
[1]


https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/82695023#map=14/-37.9878/145.0739&layers=N

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/109871984#map=15/-38.1460/145.1279&layers=N

Diacritic

On 2021-09-13 06:57, Andrew Harvey wrote:

Do you have a link to a changeset of one you worked on?

I haven't been able to find an example of where it was an issue, but 
generally the rule of thumb is only using separate ways when they are 
physically separated, so sometimes you're splitting into two parallel 
ways for either direction, but not usually for each lane of the road in 
a single direction.


On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 01:15,  wrote:

Hi,

I'm relatively new, but I wanted to bring something g to your 
attention.


I came across a couple of intersections that seemed overly complicated; 
they had lots of turn lanes drawn and were very messy. I created an 
account, learned the standards for intersections and tried my best to 
fix them. I started at Heidelberg Rd/Chandler Hwy, and then found more 
on Punt Road/Hoddle St. I changed those as best I could as well. Then I 
saw more, and more. Once I started looking, it was everywhere; 
intersections with multiple ways for lanes, two or three turn lanes 
with broken restrictions. The West Gate has some sections of parallel 
lanes as ways for a few hundred meters. Whenever I try and route using 
one of these intersections, there are multiple confusing steps and 
"forks" that don't exist in reality


Almost all the edits have been from one user; I've sent them a message 
on their most recent change set, but I'm daunted by the scale of the 
fixes required. Does this group have any suggestions on where and how 
to start?


thanks ___
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Links:
--
[1] 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/82795947#map=14/-37.9685/145.0608&layers=N___
Talk-au mailing list
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Re: [talk-au] Melbourne Intersections with duplicate ways and turn lanes

[Andrew Harvey]

Thanks I see what you mean by these changes (much easier to visualise in
OSMCha).

Usually I see this as an older style mapping, before turn lane tagging was
more common and sometimes done for routing so that people were warned
earlier. But these days it's much better to use turn:lanes tagging and only
split the way at the point where you can no longer physically change lanes.

It's possible to revert changesets, but it's not always straightforward.

Leaving a changeset comment is the best first step, as they might not be
aware of standard practice and other tags like turn:lanes.

On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 08:07,  wrote:

> Thanks Andrew, that was my last understanding as well. In particular,
> modeling right hand turns as separate, curved ways when there is no
> separate roadway.
>
> Here are of changesets which introduce the types of issues I mentioned.
> They mostly seem to be around dual carriageways.
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/108100471#map=15/-37.8844/145.2793
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/82795947#map=14/-37.9685/145.0608
> 
>
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/82695023#map=14/-37.9878/145.0739&layers=N
>
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/109871984#map=15/-38.1460/145.1279&layers=N
>
>
> Diacritic
>
> On 2021-09-13 06:57, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>
> Do you have a link to a changeset of one you worked on?
>
> I haven't been able to find an example of where it was an issue, but
> generally the rule of thumb is only using separate ways when they are
> physically separated, so sometimes you're splitting into two parallel ways
> for either direction, but not usually for each lane of the road in a single
> direction.
>
> On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 01:15,  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm relatively new, but I wanted to bring something g to your attention.
>
>
> I came across a couple of intersections that seemed overly complicated;
> they had lots of turn lanes drawn and were very messy. I created an
> account, learned the standards for intersections and tried my best to fix
> them. I started at Heidelberg Rd/Chandler Hwy, and then found more on Punt
> Road/Hoddle St. I changed those as best I could as well. Then I saw more,
> and more. Once I started looking, it was everywhere; intersections with
> multiple ways for lanes, two or three turn lanes with broken restrictions.
> The West Gate has some sections of parallel lanes as ways for a few hundred
> meters. Whenever I try and route using one of these intersections, there
> are multiple confusing steps and "forks" that don't exist in reality
>
>
> Almost all the edits have been from one user; I've sent them a message on
> their most recent change set, but I'm daunted by the scale of the fixes
> required. Does this group have any suggestions on where and how to start?
>
>
>
> thanks
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
>
___
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Re: [talk-au] Melbourne Intersections with duplicate ways and turn lanes

[me]

Thanks Andrew, that was my last understanding as well. In particular, 
modeling right hand turns as separate, curved ways when there is no 
separate roadway.


Here are of changesets which introduce the types of issues I mentioned. 
They mostly seem to be around dual carriageways.


https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/108100471#map=15/-37.8844/145.2793

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/82795947#map=14/-37.9685/145.0608 
[1]


https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/82695023#map=14/-37.9878/145.0739&layers=N

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/109871984#map=15/-38.1460/145.1279&layers=N

Diacritic

On 2021-09-13 06:57, Andrew Harvey wrote:


Do you have a link to a changeset of one you worked on?

I haven't been able to find an example of where it was an issue, but 
generally the rule of thumb is only using separate ways when they are 
physically separated, so sometimes you're splitting into two parallel 
ways for either direction, but not usually for each lane of the road in 
a single direction.


On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 01:15,  wrote:


Hi,

I'm relatively new, but I wanted to bring something g to your 
attention.


I came across a couple of intersections that seemed overly 
complicated; they had lots of turn lanes drawn and were very messy. I 
created an account, learned the standards for intersections and tried 
my best to fix them. I started at Heidelberg Rd/Chandler Hwy, and then 
found more on Punt Road/Hoddle St. I changed those as best I could as 
well. Then I saw more, and more. Once I started looking, it was 
everywhere; intersections with multiple ways for lanes, two or three 
turn lanes with broken restrictions. The West Gate has some sections 
of parallel lanes as ways for a few hundred meters. Whenever I try and 
route using one of these intersections, there are multiple confusing 
steps and "forks" that don't exist in reality


Almost all the edits have been from one user; I've sent them a message 
on their most recent change set, but I'm daunted by the scale of the 
fixes required. Does this group have any suggestions on where and how 
to start?


thanks ___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au



Links:
--
[1] 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/82795947#map=14/-37.9685/145.0608&layers=N___
Talk-au mailing list
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Re: [talk-au] Melbourne Intersections with duplicate ways and turn lanes

[Andrew Harvey]

Do you have a link to a changeset of one you worked on?

I haven't been able to find an example of where it was an issue, but
generally the rule of thumb is only using separate ways when they are
physically separated, so sometimes you're splitting into two parallel ways
for either direction, but not usually for each lane of the road in a single
direction.

On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 01:15,  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I’m relatively new, but I wanted to bring something g to your attention.
>
>
> I came across a couple of intersections that seemed overly complicated;
> they had lots of turn lanes drawn and were very messy. I created an
> account, learned the standards for intersections and tried my best to fix
> them. I started at Heidelberg Rd/Chandler Hwy, and then found more on Punt
> Road/Hoddle St. I changed those as best I could as well. Then I saw more,
> and more. Once I started looking, it was everywhere; intersections with
> multiple ways for lanes, two or three turn lanes with broken restrictions.
> The West Gate has some sections of parallel lanes as ways for a few hundred
> meters. Whenever I try and route using one of these intersections, there
> are multiple confusing steps and “forks” that don’t exist in reality
>
>
> Almost all the edits have been from one user; I’ve sent them a message on
> their most recent change set, but I’m daunted by the scale of the fixes
> required. Does this group have any suggestions on where and how to start?
>
>
>
> thanks
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
___
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[talk-au] Melbourne Intersections with duplicate ways and turn lanes

[me]

Hi,

I'm relatively new, but I wanted to bring something g to your attention.

I came across a couple of intersections that seemed overly complicated; 
they had lots of turn lanes drawn and were very messy. I created an 
account, learned the standards for intersections and tried my best to 
fix them. I started at Heidelberg Rd/Chandler Hwy, and then found more 
on Punt Road/Hoddle St. I changed those as best I could as well. Then I 
saw more, and more. Once I started looking, it was everywhere; 
intersections with multiple ways for lanes, two or three turn lanes with 
broken restrictions. The West Gate has some sections of parallel lanes 
as ways for a few hundred meters. Whenever I try and route using one of 
these intersections, there are multiple confusing steps and "forks" that 
don't exist in reality


Almost all the edits have been from one user; I've sent them a message 
on their most recent change set, but I'm daunted by the scale of the 
fixes required. Does this group have any suggestions on where and how to 
start?


thanks___
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