Re[2]: ! and CJK

[tracer]

Sunday, October 17, 1999

Hello Keith,

Saturday, Saturday, October 16, 1999, you wrote:

Keith> Hello, fellow Bat-lovers.

Keith> On Friday, October 15, 1999, 9:12:57 PM, Thomas wrote:

Keith> [snip

KR>>> "Mixed language versions" like Thai? I don't understand what you're
KR>>> saying here.

>> Dual-language versions. The Thai Windows is actualy Thai/English. Used
>> it for nine years ;-)

Keith> So the ONLY version of Thai Windows is mixed? Interesting
and very bugridden until the 98 version.
That one is quite odd as if you install Thai office windows complains
about DLL comflicts...
I think they took an USA version and added some files/patched the
registry up to cause minimal interference..


Keith> The envy is just oozing here
It gets a bit boring, I used to travel around a lot and Thailand
outside Bangkok lacks some proper civilised social life (g)

 Thai has a small utility from a local university which works fine,

KR>>> Small utility that does what?

>> I'd like to know which one you mean. I would also like to know which
>> encoding system you think is more widely used: Chula or KU? I don't
>> have a Thai Windows any more, and when I did, I didn't look what they
>> use.
Chula, its in my opinion the only one which works with minimal
interference and no problem to the OS.
With the proper font it should work on Thai as well.
Translation tables very likely arent the solution anyway as some
characters are combined...

>> But you
>> have a choice of different fonts, as Thais can be very creative. 
depends on how you interprete that...
However one thing to remember is that a font looking good to us may be
disliked by the locals as difficult to read...
I remember some multilanguage word processor and I showed the wife the
font used and acc to here it just 'didnt look right'...
And that probably goes for many non ABC fonts.


(sorry, snipped a LOT!!)

Best regards,
 
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Re[2]: ! and CJK

[tracer]

Saturday, October 16, 1999

Hello Keith,

Saturday, Saturday, October 16, 1999, you wrote:

Keith Russell> "Mixed language versions" like Thai? I don't understand what you're
Keith Russell> saying here.
english or whatever European language with Thai/Chinese/japanese etc
etc or like from what I heard French with Arabic...
Most of those mixed versions have always been bugridden and  have very
limited update capability ( hardly any system patches) and in addition
some hardware/software doesnt want to run.
Very first Thai version was real bad and famous for it..

Keith Russell> So do you live in Thailand or the U.S.?
I am from the Netherlands, but havent been there in 25 years, now live
in Thailand...

Keith Russell> Ouch! If you're in Thailand, it was definitely inevitable--the way
Keith Russell> they drive Are you okay now?
one more month doctor just said, then pin goes out...
anyway, it was me, I drove the damned bike off the road and my helmet
(German made) broke the colarbone, that was all...

Keith Russell> Great for business, eh?
boring... Donot forget one has to keep their data, they never know
where they have it and some systems have those Fujitsu drives which
last here an average of about 8 months I think before the head dies...

>> Thai has a small utility from a local university which works fine,

Keith Russell> Small utility that does what?
  You should have it already... I just mailed it.. with one font.

Keith Russell> So we have someone with a Spanish surname who lives in Taiwan and
Keith Russell> doesn't read or write Chinese but does read or write Thai, and another
Keith Russell> who lives (or works) in Thailand and doesn't read or write Thai
My kids do (g)

Keith Russell> This is truly an international community we have here, isn't it? I
Keith Russell> think it's great! (As well as being very envious)

>> One main reason I like software like theBAT is that if windows
>> corrupts, and that happens a lot, it doesnt impact my mail/news or
>> whatever. Ok, I have to dig up my serial etc to reregister it again
>> and select the accounts but the number of people I see loosing all
>> their mail/addressbooks in Outlook

Keith Russell> That's an EXCELLENT point! Also, of course all the viruses are aimed
Keith Russell> at Microsoft software.
100% true. So I tell them but it takes time...

Keith Russell> Different from what? Do you mean that they're not DBCS fonts? Or that
Keith Russell> TB will display Thai using various fonts? Or something else?
I need to know 2 things:
when you want to change fonts for the editor: where are the fonts
specified it lists???
How to add more??

secondly, I notice that the tables mention Thai but they donot seem to
be setup as its the same characters converting to the same characters.
In short, whats required to fix the table  or/and whats required to
add a font.
After all, I am probably in one of the best places to get a Thai font
or if necessary even to convert one...


Best regards,
 
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Re[2]: ! and CJK

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hi Keith,

§A¦n¡A
§Ú¬O¦ó«a¼w

a message for you in Chinese, as requested. ;-)

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Best regards,
Thomas.  

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on a Pentium II/350 MHz.

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Re[2]: ! and CJK

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hi Keith,

on Saturday, October 16, 1999, 10:13:38 AM, Keith Russell wrote:


 The only problem I found was that one needed the USA windows to run
 them as running English ofice 2000 on other European languages could
 cause corruption...

Keith Russell>>> Okay, not a problem for me, since I'm running English Windows. Might
Keith Russell>>> be for others, though.
>> Most of the mixed language versions like Thai are unstable and I
>> havent seen any critical updates for ages so presumably those should
>> be targets of hacking attachs(g)

KR> "Mixed language versions" like Thai? I don't understand what you're
KR> saying here.

Dual-language versions. The Thai Windows is actualy Thai/English. Used
it for nine years ;-)

 and in my experience language mixing here in the
 far East is a problem (and a large amount of our business in sorting
 it out again...)

Keith Russell>>> Fascinating. So what is your business? Please reply in private if
Keith Russell>>> you'd like; I'm very interested.
>> We sell / build / service PC's in South Thailand and most of our
>> customers are the local foreigners who kind of dislike the idea to
>> have Thais inside their systems...
>> Plus that I myself am involved in the USA in a system security
>> company and am at present setting up a second service center in the
>> area where I live...

That is *very* interesting - whereabouts in Southern Thailand are you?
I am going into some software selling in Thailand, with friends in
BKK. Target group Thais, though, not foreigners. I just came back from
Phuket and might be there again in two weeks or so.

>> Thai has a small utility from a local university which works fine,

KR> Small utility that does what?

I'd like to know which one you mean. I would also like to know which
encoding system you think is more widely used: Chula or KU? I don't
have a Thai Windows any more, and when I did, I didn't look what they
use.

One interesting thing: C-win's chinese character set Big5 overrrides
the fonts on all applics, and even Thai fonts display as chinese
characters. Exception: Chula Word works excellent. It comes with the
Thai drivers and for some reason, they override C-Win. I have to find
out how they do that, that's our solution for the CJK problem!

>> stay away from Thai master, its  better looking but also a master in
>> system corruption.   So if you need Thai, very likely a font could be
>> found for theBAT..I havent tried it. (And anyway, I cannot read or
>> write it but I can install chinese/japanese or whatever windows).

I have a number of Thai fonts, and my favourite is Angsual. You can
download more from Nectec (if you are with Internet Thailand
Co.,Ltd.).

KR> So we have someone with a Spanish surname who lives in Taiwan and
KR> doesn't read or write Chinese but does read or write Thai, and another
KR> who lives (or works) in Thailand and doesn't read or write Thai

And an American (Englishman/Australian?) who reads and writes Korean...

KR> This is truly an international community we have here, isn't it? I
KR> think it's great! (As well as being very envious)

;-)

>> We have as problem here anyway that hardly anyone wants to pay for
>> software so while I wouldnt mind selling theBAT, with all the free
>> software around its , well, difficult!

I sold (!) some of the programmes I wrote in Thailand. :-)

Keith Russell>>> I have downloaded all the Korean support. The result was that Internet
Keith Russell>>> Explorer and Outlook/Express now work great--but no effect on The Bat,
Keith Russell>>> which, as Thomas mentioned, does not appear to pay any attention to
Keith Russell>>> the DBCS fonts.
>> correct...  But Thai has diferent fonts.

KR> Different from what? Do you mean that they're not DBCS fonts? Or that
KR> TB will display Thai using various fonts? Or something else?

Thai is not a double-byte language as I explained earlier. But you
have a choice of different fonts, as Thais can be very creative. 

Keith Russell>>> Thanks--especially for the Office 2000 suggestion. I'll check it out.
>> Should work, MS says somewhere it is using unicode, no idea if correct
>> or if it changed...

KR> Using Unicode for Office 2000? Or for Windows 2000? I think Unicode
KR> requires OS support

 What is Unicode? An encoding system, similar
to ISO-8859-1 or so?

-- 

Best regards,
Thomas.  

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under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
on a Pentium II/350 MHz.

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Re[2]: ! and CJK

[tracer]

Saturday, October 16, 1999

Hello Keith,

Friday, Friday, October 15, 1999, you wrote:

Keith Russell> Hello, fellow Bat-lovers.

Keith Russell> On Thursday, October 14, 1999, 8:03:20 PM, tracer wrote:

>> what about using office 2000 with the special addin disks?
>> Supposedly there is japanese so probably Chinese/Korean also exists.
>> I havent seen any of these in the Final condition but they were widely
>> floating around in the far east in the beta stage...

Keith Russell> Aha! I just pulled out a copy of Beta-2 (which I haven't actually
Keith Russell> installed and tested). CD 5 and CD 6 are labeled "The Microsoft Office
Keith Russell> Language Pack: featuring multilingual user interface and proofing
Keith Russell> tool support for seven languages: German, Arabic, Japanese, Korean,
Keith Russell> Simplified Chinese, Traditional Chinese.")
Sofar I have only seen a final of German, Hebrew and Arabic on the
SAME cd...  MS seems to be splitting them up in a way that they are
unlikely to have more then one language of interest at the same
time

>> The only problem I found was that one needed the USA windows to run
>> them as running English ofice 2000 on other European languages could
>> cause corruption...

Keith Russell> Okay, not a problem for me, since I'm running English Windows. Might
Keith Russell> be for others, though.
Most of the mixed language versions like Thai are unstable and I
havent seen any critical updates for ages so presumably those should
be targets of hacking attachs(g)

>> and in my experience language mixing here in the
>> far East is a problem (and a large amount of our business in sorting
>> it out again...)

Keith Russell> Fascinating. So what is your business? Please reply in private if
Keith Russell> you'd like; I'm very interested.
We sell / build / service PC's in South Thailand and most of our
customers are the local foreigners who kind of dislike the idea to
have Thais inside their systems...
Plus that I myself am involved in the USA in a system security
company and am at present setting up a second service center in the
area where I live...
Essentially I plan the technical side but recently due to an
inevitable motorbike accident I was for 3 months out of action...
Anyway many owners insist in mixing German/English/Thai/japanese or
whatever  even after we warn them and then we end up charging and
cleaning it up again. Till the next mistake
Thai has a small utility from a local university which works fine,
stay away from Thai master, its  better looking but also a master in
system corruption.   So if you need Thai, very likely a font could be
found for theBAT..I havent tried it. (And anyway, I cannot read or
write it but I can install chinese/japanese or whatever windows).
We have as problem here anyway that hardly anyone wants to pay for
software so while I wouldnt mind selling theBAT, with all the free
software around its , well, difficult!

One main reason I like software like theBAT is that if windows
corrupts, and that happens a lot, it doesnt impact my mail/news or
whatever. Ok, I have to dig up my serial etc to reregister it again
and select the accounts but the number of people I see loosing all
their mail/addressbooks in Outlook

>> or what about the free MS 98 downloads (english) for foreign languages which also 
>let you change
>> the menus to for instance japanese.. Only problem besides that I
>> wouldnt know how to use it was that on removing I found my internet to
>> have gone back to English but standard explorer stayed in japanese...

Keith Russell> I have downloaded all the Korean support. The result was that Internet
Keith Russell> Explorer and Outlook/Express now work great--but no effect on The Bat,
Keith Russell> which, as Thomas mentioned, does not appear to pay any attention to
Keith Russell> the DBCS fonts.
correct...  But Thai has diferent fonts.



Keith Russell> Thanks--especially for the Office 2000 suggestion. I'll check it out.
Should work, MS says somewhere it is using unicode, no idea if correct
or if it changed...


Keith Russell>  Keith Russell
Keith Russell>  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]




Best regards,
 
tracer

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Re[2]: ! and CJK

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Keith,

On Friday, October 15, 1999, 9:53:08 PM, Keith Russell wrote:

>> On Friday, October 08, 1999, 1:14:28 PM, Syafril Hermansyah wrote:

KR> [snip]

SH>>> In  the  first  time  I run 1.36Beta/12, I found that I got new font :
SH>>> Andele  Mono,  MS  Hei  (Chinese  GB_2312), MingLiu (Chinese_BIG5), MS
SH>>> Mincho (Japanese) and MS Song (Chinese_GB2312).

>> GB2312 is used on the mainland, Big5 here in Taiwan.

KR> Right. So what's Andele?

It's a font, whereas the others mentioned are encoding systems.

>> I run C-Win98, and it's the Chinese version (meaning all the
>> Windows stuff is written in Chinese, and I have to work a lot from
>> memory). The bilingual version Chin/Engl is instable.

KR> I didn't even know there was a Chinese/English version.

I've never seen it, because everybody told me not to buy it. But I
know that there is also a Japanese/English Win98, because I know
someone who has the biggest troubles with it.

>> I also read&write Thai, so that would be really an advantage :-)

KR> So you read and write Thai, but not Chinese? I'm envious. I never
KR> got very far with the Thai writing system; it's so inconsistent it
KR> might as well be logographic, like Chinese ;-).

Unlike Chinese, it has actual letters (44 consonants and 12 vowels;
and some tone markers and other stuff), so you can read and pronounce
a word if you don't know it. It's pretty consistent; which one of the
five T's or two N's or so you have to use in which word depends on the
origin of the word ... but this is far OT. ;-)

Oh, and no surprise: Thai characters display as Chinese characters under
C-Win98, like Russian charcters, too.

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Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re[2]: ! and CJK

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Syafril,

On Friday, October 15, 1999, 4:49:25 PM, Syafril Hermansyah wrote:

[...]

Thanks for the help on how to use Outlook.. actually I use a programme
called "The Bat!" ;-)

SH>>> What's character set you prefer ?

TF>> A  changeable  one.  Actually,  TB  ignores  the  XLAT  tables and
TF>> "encoding" option when it comes to double-byte langauges.

SH> XLAT  tables  could  be  the  other  alternative  for  composing Asian
SH> Character Set.

The thing is, I have no problem with the Chinese characters. The
problem is that regardless of which table I activate in TB!, high
ASCII values will always be interpreted as chin.char. So I cannot
compose (or even read) European characters. Even if I right-click in a
message with umlaute, choose Translation/Central European, a chin.char
will be displayed.

KR   Has anyone at all found a way around these problems? Thomas, I
KR   noticed you are running Chinese Windows. Do you have similar
KR   problems?

SH>>> Thomas,
SH>>> How about you after using 1.36Beta/12 ?

TF>> Now using the released version; no change.

SH> How if you change "the language" to chinese before composing ?

It is *always* Chinese, and I'd like to toggle it off. In the Editor
Window, Options/Message Encoding/Central European is overridden by the
C-Win default Big5 encoding.

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Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re[2]: ! and CJK

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Keith,

On Friday, October 15, 1999, 9:41:33 PM, Keith Russell wrote:


>> I don't acutally read or write Chinese. I will check this tomorrow in
>> the office, having my secretary type something.

KR> Thanks. It will be VERY interesting to see what character set shows up
KR> in the header if s/he sends a Chinese message. In fact, have her send
KR> a copy to me. I'll start up NJWin and see what I get.

Gee, I forgot that. Will do tomorrow. However, I remember in one
message it said:

charset=big5

and in a Thai language message, it said:

charset=X-UNKNOWN

but I think that depends on the mailer.

KR> Thanks a lot for the reply. I hope the Bat! programmers are following
KR> this discussion.

They are aware of this problem.

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Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re[2]: ! and CJK

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Syafril,

On Friday, October 08, 1999, 1:14:28 PM, Syafril Hermansyah wrote:

KR>> Problems  with The Bat's handling of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean
KR>> (along  with  a  couple  of  other  problems  mentioned in another
KR>> thread)  are  keeping  me  from  purchasing it. Specifically, with
KR>> Korean (under English Windows):

SH> I am not sure about this, but maybe you can try, here it goes:

SH> Yesterday  I  was  upgrading  my MS Office 97 to MS Office 2000. After
SH> that  I  am  upgrade The Bat! from version 1.36Beta/10 to 1.36Beta/11,
SH> then 1.36Beta/12 (due I have no luck to run 1.36Beta/11).

SH> In  the  first  time  I run 1.36Beta/12, I found that I got new font :
SH> Andele  Mono,  MS  Hei  (Chinese  GB_2312), MingLiu (Chinese_BIG5), MS
SH> Mincho (Japanese) and MS Song (Chinese_GB2312).

GB2312 is used on the mainland, Big5 here in Taiwan. I run C-Win98,
and it's the Chinese version (meaning all the Windows stuff is written
in Chinese, and I have to work a lot from memory). The bilingual
version Chin/Engl is instable. If Win2000 supports Chinese characters,
I will consider upgrading, I need it in the office. I also read&write
Thai, so that would be really an advantage :-) Any problems with
Win2000 that I should be aware off? (Reply off-list OK).

SH> If you have MS Office 2000, you can give a try.
SH> I  will  update  the  character  set with Korean Character set if time
SH> permit, and see what happend then.

Let us all now, that would be important for this part part of the
world.

KR>>   2. Worse yet, if I compose and send a message using The Bat and
KR>>   Korean Partner, the message header identifies the charset as
KR>>   ISO-8851-1! (It should be sent as ISO-2022-KR.) I am afraid that
KR>>   this will make it unreadable to recipients.

SH> What's character set you prefer ?

A changeable one. Actually, TB ignores the XLAT tables and "encoding"
option when it comes to double-byte langauges.

KR>>   Has anyone at all found a way around these problems? Thomas, I
KR>>   noticed you are running Chinese Windows. Do you have similar
KR>>   problems?

SH> Thomas,
SH> How about you after using 1.36Beta/12 ?

Now using the released version; no change.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.36
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