Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
Dave said: I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek. http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$ AGREED Dave said: 2nd, rubber boots that lace up also work well. The laces allow you to keep the boot tight around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out of your boots.Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but occasionally you will have to empty out the mud and grit. You could wrap up your ankle with sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing non-lace up rubber boots. The recommended boots are called 6 inch polyblend work shoe: http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek. [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ] Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first. They should last you several years. AGREED Dave said: 3rd, As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for going upstream from the shaft. What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ), http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers the thighs, butt and chest. That way you can easily move around and not feel constricted in your suit. This makes it easier to wear knee-pads and elbow pads. http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving overalls, if you don't get cold easily. On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming section easier, but I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms. I think it important to have a front zipper. Back zippers are not suitable for caving. AGREED FOR THE MOST PART. I WEAR A THICK WETSUIT ON THE THROUGH TRIP AND NEVER GET OVERHEATED. AS FAR AS A ZIPPER IN THE BACK, I BOUGHT A SNORKELING WETSUIT AT ACADEMY THAT HAD A ZIPPER IN THE BACK. I HATED IT, SO I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE MOVE IT TO THE FRONT AND I CUT THE LONG SLEEVES OFF AND MADE IT SHORT SLEEVED. NOW I WEAR IT WITH THIN POLYPROS UNDER IT AND IT WORKS GREAT. Dave said: In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny sterno can. But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno WHAT WORKS BETTER, AND MANY HONEY CREEK CAVERS DO THIS, IS TO TAKE A TRASH SACK, A LONG-BURNING CANDLE, AND A CIGARETTER LIGHTER (THE LATTER TWO ITEMS IN A SMALL NALGENE BOTTLE, POKE A HOLE THROUGH THE END OF THE TRASH SACK AND PUT YOUR HEAD THROUGH IT, BEND YOUR KNEES AND PUT YOUR LEGS INSIDE OF THE TRASH SACK, AND PLACE THE CANDLE ON THE FLOOR BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS. Dave said: As for what to wear on your hands, wear neoprene gloves like what water-skiers use. The neoprene gloves that divers use are too thick and will not allow you to maneuver your fingers to do things like take photos or survey. [ However, the divers gloves work great for salamandering, if you are fortunate enough to find a cave where you can do that. ] NEOPRENE GLOVE ARE EXPENSIVE AND DIE FAST IN A CAVE. USE CAVING GLOVES. YOUR HANDS RARELY GET COLD. Dave said: If you are the kind of person that gets cold easily in a cave, then you could stash a sweater and a hat at the bottom of the shaft in a plastic bag. I DISAGREE ON THE SWEATER, AND INSTEAD RECOMMENT A POLYPRO, CAPILENE, OR SOME OTHER SYNTHETIC LONG UNDERWEAR TOP. YOU CAN EVEN HAVE THEM LOOSE IN YOUR CAVE PACK AND SOAKING WET. WHEN YOU NEED IT, YOU WRING IT OUT, PUT IT ON WET, AND IN A MATTER OF LESS THAN A MINUTE YOU GET OVER THE CHILL AND IT'S WARMING YOU UP. Dave wrote: Sounds like fun. I wish I could have been there. WE'VE RESCHEDULED THE THREE WEEKENDS, DAVE, SO MAYBE YOU CAN. 1) FEB. 13 - DIVE GEAR TAKEN TO THE HS SUMP 2) FEB. 20 - THE DIVE IS DONE AND THE CAVE IS AVAILABLE FOR TOURIST TRIPS 3) FEB. 27 - DIVE GEAR IS BROUGHT OUT OF THE CAVE. LET ME KNOW WHICH TRIP(S) YOU CAN MAKE. BILL David Locklear On 1/30/10, Cristina Estrada ara...@gmail.com wrote: Hi to all, I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold. What suggestions do you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to keep hands, feet warm? How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself immediatly? Also they
RE: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
Great advice from all. I'll add a couple of comments from somebody who gets cold easily. I'll often take polypro in ziplocks as extra in my pack for waiting, time when I am eating, or if I get cold. It is fine wet, but I like it dry if I have to put it on. I have even put it on over the wetsuit when sitting for lunch. I often wear silk or polypro underwear under my wet suit. If it is a swimming trip a wet suit that has a farmer john and shortie over-top is nice, but I happen to have one. That is too restrictive for many trips. I always carry a balaclava and will put it on under my helmet when I begin to chill. I think a neoprene hood would work, but I have never had one. Water and food are important. Take enough; the body needs fuel. The trash bag is essential, and often useful in all types of cold caving. Depending on need, I have used construction trash bags or regular large trash bags or leaf bags. For cold camping, remember adequate insulation under the sleeping bag--that also makes a huge difference. Have fun, and stay warm. -Original Message- From: speleoste...@tx.rr.com [mailto:speleoste...@tx.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:27 AM To: David; Cristina Estrada Cc: Cavers Texas Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS Dave said: I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek. http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$ AGREED Dave said: 2nd, rubber boots that lace up also work well. The laces allow you to keep the boot tight around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out of your boots.Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but occasionally you will have to empty out the mud and grit. You could wrap up your ankle with sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing non-lace up rubber boots. The recommended boots are called 6 inch polyblend work shoe: http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek. [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ] Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first. They should last you several years. AGREED Dave said: 3rd, As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for going upstream from the shaft. What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ), http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers the thighs, butt and chest. That way you can easily move around and not feel constricted in your suit. This makes it easier to wear knee-pads and elbow pads. http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving overalls, if you don't get cold easily. On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming section easier, but I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms. I think it important to have a front zipper. Back zippers are not suitable for caving. AGREED FOR THE MOST PART. I WEAR A THICK WETSUIT ON THE THROUGH TRIP AND NEVER GET OVERHEATED. AS FAR AS A ZIPPER IN THE BACK, I BOUGHT A SNORKELING WETSUIT AT ACADEMY THAT HAD A ZIPPER IN THE BACK. I HATED IT, SO I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE MOVE IT TO THE FRONT AND I CUT THE LONG SLEEVES OFF AND MADE IT SHORT SLEEVED. NOW I WEAR IT WITH THIN POLYPROS UNDER IT AND IT WORKS GREAT. Dave said: In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny sterno can. But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno WHAT WORKS BETTER, AND MANY HONEY CREEK CAVERS DO THIS, IS TO TAKE A TRASH SACK, A LONG-BURNING CANDLE, AND A CIGARETTER LIGHTER (THE LATTER TWO ITEMS IN A SMALL NALGENE BOTTLE, POKE A HOLE THROUGH THE END OF THE TRASH SACK AND PUT YOUR HEAD THROUGH IT, BEND YOUR KNEES AND PUT YOUR LEGS INSIDE OF THE TRASH SACK, AND PLACE THE CANDLE ON THE FLOOR BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS. Dave said: As for what to wear on your hands, wear neoprene gloves like what water-skiers use. The neoprene gloves that divers use are too thick and will not allow you to maneuver your fingers to do things like take photos or survey. [ However, the divers gloves work great for salamandering, if you are fortunate enough to find a cave where you can do that. ] NEOPRENE GLOVE ARE EXPENSIVE AND DIE FAST IN A CAVE. USE CAVING GLOVES. YOUR HANDS RARELY GET COLD. Dave said: If you are the kind of person that gets cold easily in a cave, then you could stash a sweater
RE: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
I always carry a balaclava and will put it on under my helmet when I begin to chill. Oh yeah, thanks, I also always carry a balaclava. And I have loaned it to other people too, when it really mattered for their well being. Bill Linda Palit lkpa...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Great advice from all. I'll add a couple of comments from somebody who gets cold easily. I'll often take polypro in ziplocks as extra in my pack for waiting, time when I am eating, or if I get cold. It is fine wet, but I like it dry if I have to put it on. I have even put it on over the wetsuit when sitting for lunch. I often wear silk or polypro underwear under my wet suit. If it is a swimming trip a wet suit that has a farmer john and shortie over-top is nice, but I happen to have one. That is too restrictive for many trips. I always carry a balaclava and will put it on under my helmet when I begin to chill. I think a neoprene hood would work, but I have never had one. Water and food are important. Take enough; the body needs fuel. The trash bag is essential, and often useful in all types of cold caving. Depending on need, I have used construction trash bags or regular large trash bags or leaf bags. For cold camping, remember adequate insulation under the sleeping bag--that also makes a huge difference. Have fun, and stay warm. -Original Message- From: speleoste...@tx.rr.com [mailto:speleoste...@tx.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:27 AM To: David; Cristina Estrada Cc: Cavers Texas Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS Dave said: I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek. http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$ AGREED Dave said: 2nd, rubber boots that lace up also work well. The laces allow you to keep the boot tight around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out of your boots.Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but occasionally you will have to empty out the mud and grit. You could wrap up your ankle with sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing non-lace up rubber boots. The recommended boots are called 6 inch polyblend work shoe: http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek. [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ] Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first. They should last you several years. AGREED Dave said: 3rd, As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for going upstream from the shaft. What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ), http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers the thighs, butt and chest. That way you can easily move around and not feel constricted in your suit. This makes it easier to wear knee-pads and elbow pads. http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving overalls, if you don't get cold easily. On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming section easier, but I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms. I think it important to have a front zipper. Back zippers are not suitable for caving. AGREED FOR THE MOST PART. I WEAR A THICK WETSUIT ON THE THROUGH TRIP AND NEVER GET OVERHEATED. AS FAR AS A ZIPPER IN THE BACK, I BOUGHT A SNORKELING WETSUIT AT ACADEMY THAT HAD A ZIPPER IN THE BACK. I HATED IT, SO I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE MOVE IT TO THE FRONT AND I CUT THE LONG SLEEVES OFF AND MADE IT SHORT SLEEVED. NOW I WEAR IT WITH THIN POLYPROS UNDER IT AND IT WORKS GREAT. Dave said: In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny sterno can. But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno WHAT WORKS BETTER, AND MANY HONEY CREEK CAVERS DO THIS, IS TO TAKE A TRASH SACK, A LONG-BURNING CANDLE, AND A CIGARETTER LIGHTER (THE LATTER TWO ITEMS IN A SMALL NALGENE BOTTLE, POKE A HOLE THROUGH THE END OF THE TRASH SACK AND PUT YOUR HEAD THROUGH IT, BEND YOUR KNEES AND PUT YOUR LEGS INSIDE OF THE TRASH SACK, AND PLACE THE CANDLE ON THE FLOOR BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS. Dave said: As for what to wear on your hands, wear neoprene gloves like what water-skiers use. The neoprene gloves that divers use are too thick
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
To build in a little perspective, after caving in the NE for a while, the balaclava and trash bag, as well as the thermos, are essentials. A nice little trick is to keep the trash bag folded inside the helmet - dry, accessible, and out of the way from heavier gear. Otherwise, we usually double-sock, with neoprene and wool - which seems to work well enough. The best thing, though, is to keep moving. The water and wind steal body heat quickly, and make for a quick cooldown. Cheers, --Dave On Jan 31, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Linda Palit wrote: Great advice from all. I'll add a couple of comments from somebody who gets cold easily. I'll often take polypro in ziplocks as extra in my pack for waiting, time when I am eating, or if I get cold. It is fine wet, but I like it dry if I have to put it on. I have even put it on over the wetsuit when sitting for lunch. I often wear silk or polypro underwear under my wet suit. If it is a swimming trip a wet suit that has a farmer john and shortie over- top is nice, but I happen to have one. That is too restrictive for many trips. I always carry a balaclava and will put it on under my helmet when I begin to chill. I think a neoprene hood would work, but I have never had one. Water and food are important. Take enough; the body needs fuel. The trash bag is essential, and often useful in all types of cold caving. Depending on need, I have used construction trash bags or regular large trash bags or leaf bags. For cold camping, remember adequate insulation under the sleeping bag--that also makes a huge difference. Have fun, and stay warm. -Original Message- From: speleoste...@tx.rr.com [mailto:speleoste...@tx.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:27 AM To: David; Cristina Estrada Cc: Cavers Texas Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS Dave said: I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek. http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$ AGREED Dave said: 2nd, rubber boots that lace up also work well. The laces allow you to keep the boot tight around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out of your boots.Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but occasionally you will have to empty out the mud and grit. You could wrap up your ankle with sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing non-lace up rubber boots. The recommended boots are called 6 inch polyblend work shoe: http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek. [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ] Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first. They should last you several years. AGREED Dave said: 3rd, As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for going upstream from the shaft. What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ), http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers the thighs, butt and chest. That way you can easily move around and not feel constricted in your suit. This makes it easier to wear knee-pads and elbow pads. http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving overalls, if you don't get cold easily. On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming section easier, but I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms. I think it important to have a front zipper. Back zippers are not suitable for caving. AGREED FOR THE MOST PART. I WEAR A THICK WETSUIT ON THE THROUGH TRIP AND NEVER GET OVERHEATED. AS FAR AS A ZIPPER IN THE BACK, I BOUGHT A SNORKELING WETSUIT AT ACADEMY THAT HAD A ZIPPER IN THE BACK. I HATED IT, SO I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE MOVE IT TO THE FRONT AND I CUT THE LONG SLEEVES OFF AND MADE IT SHORT SLEEVED. NOW I WEAR IT WITH THIN POLYPROS UNDER IT AND IT WORKS GREAT. Dave said: In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny sterno can. But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno WHAT WORKS BETTER, AND MANY HONEY CREEK CAVERS DO THIS, IS TO TAKE A TRASH SACK, A LONG-BURNING CANDLE, AND A CIGARETTER LIGHTER (THE LATTER TWO ITEMS IN A SMALL NALGENE BOTTLE, POKE A HOLE THROUGH THE END OF THE TRASH SACK AND PUT YOUR HEAD THROUGH IT, BEND YOUR KNEES AND PUT YOUR LEGS INSIDE OF THE TRASH SACK, AND PLACE THE CANDLE ON THE FLOOR BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS. Dave said: As for what to wear
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
Good point on the suggestion to double sock. On long wet trips my feet become sensitive to the wool, so I slip on a very thin nylon liner sock first, then the wool, and finally the neoprene sock. I usually buy the neoprene sock a size larger than usual to easily accommodate the liner and wool, if in doubt take the sock(s) you plan to wear to the store (Academy, etc.) and layer away as you would at the cave entrance. Be aware that the nylon sock is not the kind most often worn by divers using adjustable strap fins, it has to fit in the boot so the rubber sole booties are not what you want. --- On Sun, 1/31/10, Dave H. Crusoe dhcru...@projectkir.org wrote: ... we usually double-sock, with neoprene and wool - which seems to work well enough. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival
I won't try to compete with all the detail that David wrote about what to wear, but here are a few comments that might help to answer some of your questions.Flooding hazard:The bad news is that Honey Creek Cave certainly can flood enough to be dangerous. In some sections, especially in certain parts of the through trip route, there is very little air space (as little as a few inches in some places) above the normal water level, so a small rise in water level can leave no breathing room at all in these critical locations. The good news, however, is that the water levels in Honey Creek usually do not rise very quickly. The cave has lots of natural dams in its stream passages, so in most areas, the normal water level is determined by the height of the next dam downstream. Whenever the water flow rate increases (because of rain upstream), more water flows over the dam such that a large increase in flow rate causes only a small increase in water depth behind the dam. Caution should be used in wet weather. The cavers who organize Honey Creek trips should be familiar enough with the conditions there to know when to postpone or cancel a trip due to hazardous weather.Keeping warm inside the cave:Temperature inside the cave should be practically the same any time of year, regardless of the outside temperature, except, of course, when you are very near an entrance. One advantage of cold weather, however, is that you are less likely to encounter "bad air" inside the cave in winter than you are in summer. The main disadvantage of cold weather is what it can do to you outside the cave, not inside, but I'll address that later.What you'll need to keep warm inside the cave will depend largely on where you go and what you do in the cave. If you do the through trip, you most likely will spend most of your time swimming or wading such that your entire body, except for your head, will be under water. For this, you will want a full wetsuit and fins, similar to those used by SCUBA divers. Since you will spend most of your time swimming with fins, you will want to wear wetsuit booties suitable for use with fins. These should have soles thick enough so that you can comfortably walk, climb, and/or crawl short distances over rocks and dry ground but, unlike caving boots, they should be thin enough to be worn with swim fins. The fins used for Honey Creek through trips are like those used for SCUBA, but it is preferable to use "floaters" instead of "sinkers" so that you are less likely to lose a fin if you accidently drop it in deep muddy water. Most SCUBA fins are designed to be almost neutrally buoyant, but some will slowly sink while others will slowly float to the surface when dropped in water. In my experience, white fins are more likely to float and black fins are more likely to sink, but it depends on the specific brand and model of fin, and the people who sell them usually don't know the sinkers from the floaters, because most SCUBA divers don't care. When I bought fins for use in Honey Creek a number of years ago, I went to a SCUBA shop with a pool in their back room, and the salesman tested various fins by placing them in the pool until we found some that didn't sink. For the through trip, you also will want some sort of floatation device to make prolonged swimming easier. One way to do this is to carry a cave pack large enough to contain a couple of large empty (air filled) soft drink bottles, which will cause your pack to float. You swim belly down with your arms over your floating pack and with your legs moving the fins behind you. During a through trip, you are not likely to sit still very long unless you stop to eat, so exercise will help to keep you warm most of the time.Other types of Honey Creek trips, however, can involve different conditions. For example, some of the upstream areas and side passages have mostly shallow water and mud where you will have little or no use for fins and will have to walk, wade, crawl, and/or salamander most of the time instead of swimming. In this case, you might not carry fins and might not care about adding floatation to your pack beyond whatever is needed to prevent the pack from sinking if accidentally dropped. For these conditions, you might want to wear boots like those David recommended, along with some socks that will keep your feet warm when wet. Neoprene socks (which differ from wetsuit booties in that they don't have thick soles) are best, but you'll need boots larger than what you normally wear to allow for the thickness of neoprene socks.Your upper body might be out of the water much of the time, so full wetsuit covering of the upper body is less essential. You might tend to get uncomfortably warm from exercise while actively moving through the passages but then get uncomfortably cold while surveying or otherwise do things that involve less exercise. You might prefer to wear a wetsuit bottom or farmer john style wetsuit, combined with upper body clothing you can adjust for
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival
Hola Cristina, The Honey Creek Cave tank haul was aborted yesterday. Twenty-five people went down the shaft entrance and started going upstream. The water was the highest I've ever seen it and the current was strong. An hour into the cave it was sumped, and besides, people were already feeling a little tired from fighting the strong current. We aborted the trip then. Kurt Menking and I thought that the water was ever higher on the way out than on the way in, so it might have been rising while we were in the cave, and of course that's dangerous. You have been in the cave and to the HS Sump, so the answsers to your questions are simple. The cave is exactly the same whether it's hot or cold outside, with the one exception that when it's hot outside the air can be of a lesser quality in the cave. Here's what you do when you come out of the cave and it's cold outside: You go straight you vehicle, you take off your wetsuit, you dry yourself thorougly with a towel, and you get dressed in dry, warm clothes. And you do that as fast as you can. What affects people more caving in the winter is that they don't have a warm enough sleeping bag. What works well is to either have a fleece sleeping bag that you put inside of your regular one and get inside of the both (we got our fleece sleeping bags at Walmart for $10 each about 5 years ago, and use them as our sleeping bags in the Texas summer) or you have two sleeping bags and put one inside the other. You should also wear long underwear at night to help you stay warm. I will address your gear issues when I comment on what Dave Locklear had to say about your questions. NOTE: The three weekends in a row plan at Honey Creek Cave has been rescheduled to: Weekend 1 - Feb. 13 - dive gear is taken into the cave and left Weekend 2 - Feb. 20 - the dive is done and people can take tourists trips in the cave Weekend 3 - Feb. 27 - dive is it brought out of the cave. Regards, Bill Cristina Estrada ara...@gmail.com wrote: Hi to all, I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold. What suggestions do you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to keep hands, feet warm? How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself immediatly? Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining? Thanks for your advice, Cristina Estrada - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival
suggestions do you have to keep warm inside the cave? Do you chill easily? 6 mm might be a little much for the whole body but if you chill easily you may want that much on your torso. If you are going on the tank hall then I don't think you will have to worry about getting cold while in the cave as you will be moving and that will keep you warm. When you stop to rest or for lunch make sure you are as far out of the water as you can be. If you start to chill then you need to start moving around best way to warm back up. I always used neoprene socks or booties for my feet (inside your boots) and I also had a variety of gloves that I tried. The best gloves were a neoprene diving glove but they were expensive and they didn't hold up well to the kind of caving you have to do in Honey Creek. Here again when you are on the move the hands and feet stay warm. Should you have a specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself immediatly? The first thing you do when you get out of the cave is to get out of the wetsuit and dry yourself off. Get into some warm dry clothes and then wrap yourself in a blanket if your still cold. Is it safe to cave when is raining? Not if they are anticipating a lot of rain. Honey Creek can rise. Have a good trip, I've spent many hours in Honey Creek, I hope you enjoy it. Mary TZ From: Cristina Estrada ara...@gmail.com To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Sat, January 30, 2010 8:34:29 PM Subject: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival Hi to all, I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold. What suggestions do you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to keep hands, feet warm? How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself immediatly? Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining? Thanks for your advice, Cristina Estrada
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival
Thanks a lot to all of you for all your comments, they're very detailed and they're greatly appreciated. I've already been in honey creek cave in the grand finale and a tank haul, but they were not during very cold weather (I'm from a hot weather place, so 40 F is very cold for me), that's why I wanted to konow what type of gear should I get. Because of all the good advice over here, now I have a very good idea and I'll prepare accordingly. I'll go to the second and third trips. Now that they're postponed, it gives me more time to prepare and the weather to get warmer!! Best regards, Cristina Estrada On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Mary Thiesse wpipistre...@yahoo.comwrote: suggestions do you have to keep warm inside the cave? Do you chill easily? 6 mm might be a little much for the whole body but if you chill easily you may want that much on your torso. If you are going on the tank hall then I don't think you will have to worry about getting cold while in the cave as you will be moving and that will keep you warm. When you stop to rest or for lunch make sure you are as far out of the water as you can be. If you start to chill then you need to start moving around best way to warm back up. I always used neoprene socks or booties for my feet (inside your boots) and I also had a variety of gloves that I tried. The best gloves were a neoprene diving glove but they were expensive and they didn't hold up well to the kind of caving you have to do in Honey Creek. Here again when you are on the move the hands and feet stay warm. Should you have a specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself immediatly? The first thing you do when you get out of the cave is to get out of the wetsuit and dry yourself off. Get into some warm dry clothes and then wrap yourself in a blanket if your still cold. Is it safe to cave when is raining? Not if they are anticipating a lot of rain. Honey Creek can rise. Have a good trip, I've spent many hours in Honey Creek, I hope you enjoy it. Mary TZ -- *From:* Cristina Estrada ara...@gmail.com *To:* Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com *Sent:* Sat, January 30, 2010 8:34:29 PM *Subject:* [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival Hi to all, I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold. What suggestions do you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to keep hands, feet warm? How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself immediatly? Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining? Thanks for your advice, Cristina Estrada
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival
I will try to answer part of Cristina's question. I think different cavers are going to answer the question differently, especially ones that have done Honeycreek in the wintertime many times. First, I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek. http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$ 2nd, rubber boots that lace up also work well. The laces allow you to keep the boot tight around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out of your boots.Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but occasionally you will have to empty out the mud and grit. You could wrap up your ankle with sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing non-lace up rubber boots. The recommended boots are called 6 inch polyblend work shoe: http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek. [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ] Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first. They should last you several years. 3rd, As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for going upstream from the shaft. What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ), http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers the thighs, butt and chest. That way you can easily move around and not feel constricted in your suit. This makes it easier to wear knee-pads and elbow pads. http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving overalls, if you don't get cold easily. On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming section easier, but I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms. I think it important to have a front zipper. Back zippers are not suitable for caving. [ Sidenote: On the subject of wet-suits; you will tear up a wet-suit pretty fast if you do a lot of caving in a crawling wet cave. There is no reason to purchase an expensive wet-suit. If you are lucky, you can find a used one that is perfect for caving for under $ 20. Look at resale shops like Goodwill. Scuba shops may have some, but they may be a little more expensive. ] In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny sterno can. But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno As for what to wear on your hands, wear neoprene gloves like what water-skiers use. The neoprene gloves that divers use are too thick and will not allow you to maneuver your fingers to do things like take photos or survey. [ However, the divers gloves work great for salamandering, if you are fortunate enough to find a cave where you can do that. ] If you are the kind of person that gets cold easily in a cave, then you could stash a sweater and a hat at the bottom of the shaft in a plastic bag. As for what to do as you exit the shaft in the winter-time, it is best to have cavers top-side sitting around a large camp-fire. Have a towel ready to dry off, especially your hair. Immediately put on a wool-knit ski hat. Your wet-suit should keep you warm long enough to find a sweater. Have some warm dry boots in easy reach at your car, so you can warm up your feet. If it is in the 40's, you will probably want to put on a parka-type coat after getting on your sweater, if you are not accustomed to cold weather. A cup of hot cocoa or hot de-caf tea will feel refreshing.You could stash a thermos at the bottom of the shaft if you were really worried about getting cold in the cave. Maybe decaf coffee might help. Haven't tried that. Shortly after getting dried off and warm, you might have some hot tacos wrapped in foil to put over the fire, but more than likely you are going to be too exhausted and just want to curl up in a warm sleeping bag and sleep. Sounds like fun. I wish I could have been there. David Locklear On 1/30/10, Cristina Estrada ara...@gmail.com wrote: Hi to all, I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold. What suggestions do you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to keep hands, feet warm? How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself immediatly? Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining? Thanks for your
