[time-nuts] FE-5680B Rubidium and DDS

[Clint Jay]

I've recently purchased one of the PPS Only FE Rubidium standards from eBay
and, like many others I suspect, haven't been able to get a stable output
frequency that lasts longer than a few seconds from the module.

It appears that the 10MHz source vanishes after a few seconds but this is
controlled by firmware.

Which leads to my question, there is a dump of the firmware from the
FE-5680, has anyone tried to reprogram one?
-- 
Clint.

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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680B Rubidium and DDS

[Clint Jay]

Bryan, I also found a stable 30MHz which I think is used to clock the
optional DDS board so I intend to experiment adding an AD9851 board with 6x
multiplier enabled but first I want to try and understand why the unit
locks and only outputs 10MHz from the XC9572, something in the firmware
appears to turn off the output, I may get around to experimenting a little
more soon and will of course share my findings if they're of interest. .

Bob, there are files which claim to be a dump of the firmware and also the
XC9572 along with a partial schematic but they're from a 5680A which, from
the pictures on the net, is a slightly different hardware version although
the major components appear identical so it may be possible to modify the B
version Bryan and I have.

On 26 September 2015 at 02:45, Bryan _  wrote:

> There is information on this thread on how you can tap into the unit at
> various points to get 20 and 60Mhz. Other owners have used a divider to
> bring it to the 10Mhz frequency desired. I have one of these units and
> haven't gone around to dividing it down. I purchased mine from Ebay and the
> seller notes that this particular version will output 10Mhz for a second or
> two and then disappear. I suspect you have the same version, maybe even the
> same seller, so the operation of these particular units appears to be
> normal. Mine will lock so I know it's working.
>
> http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fe-5680b-1pps-to-10mhz/msg556800/#msg556800
> I as well wish there was a quick way of converting it back to 10Mhz. I am
> sure it can be done, just not sure how or where to look 
>
> -=Bryan=-
>
> > From: kb...@n1k.org
> > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 17:45:08 -0400
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680B Rubidium and DDS
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > There is no dump of the firmware. The problem you are most likely
> > having is not firmware related.
> >
> > If the VCXO i the unit drifts to far it needs to be re-tuned. Until this
> is done
> > the device simply sits in a “search for lock” loop forever and ever.
> >
> > Simple way to do it:
> >
> > Monitor the VCXO and bump the trimmer until the frequency goes above the
> intended
> > target (10 x N MHz depending on your monitor point) by at least 0.15
> ppm. The sweep is
> > slow enough that a counter running at a 0.1 second gate will easily show
> you what’s going on.
> >
> > Of course it can be other things. All of them are a bit more involved to
> fix.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > > On Sep 25, 2015, at 11:34 AM, Clint Jay  wrote:
> > >
> > > I've recently purchased one of the PPS Only FE Rubidium standards from
> eBay
> > > and, like many others I suspect, haven't been able to get a stable
> output
> > > frequency that lasts longer than a few seconds from the module.
> > >
> > > It appears that the 10MHz source vanishes after a few seconds but this
> is
> > > controlled by firmware.
> > >
> > > Which leads to my question, there is a dump of the firmware from the
> > > FE-5680, has anyone tried to reprogram one?
> > > --
> > > Clint.
> > >
> > > *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large
> number
> > > of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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>
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>



-- 
Clint.

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of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680B Rubidium and DDS

[Clint Jay]

The 10MHz output comes from the XC9572 CPLD but the fact that it's there
for a few seconds makes me thing it's possible to recover it, by fair means
or foul.

It's possible it's just a gate, certainly looks like it's bing switched off
and there's a file which claims to be a dump of the CPLD (as well as a few
other binaries) so it may be possible to trace it back but I'd want to try
and dump the CPLD contents from my FE so I'm going to build a JTAG cable.

The other option which may be more practical would be to add my own DDS
(already designed and built for another application but would need to be
modified a little and repackaged) and use the 30MHz CPLD output that's
always present when the unit is locked to get programmable spot
frequencies.

On 26 September 2015 at 07:40, Hal Murray  wrote:

>
> > I as well wish there was a quick way of converting it back to 10Mhz. I am
> > sure it can be done, just not sure how or where to look
>
> If the 10 MHz is visible for a second or two, there is probably a gate to
> turn it on/off.  If I wanted 10 MHz, I'd open it up and trace the wire
> back.
> If it goes to a gate, you might be able to lift the pin for the other input
> and wire it hi/low.  There is a good chance it goes to a FPGA where you
> can't
> get at the gate.
>
>
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
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> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



-- 
Clint.

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of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680B Rubidium and DDS

[Clint Jay]

I've made some investigations and re-confirmed my earlier findings on the
FE-5680B I have.

It locks from cold in under five minutes and runs at approximately 700mA
steady with the expected PPS signal on the output connector when locked.

The particular 5680 I have has a Hi Density 15p male connector on the
output and uses a single 15V supply, part number FE5680B UN 77672.

The device does not have the optional DDS daughterboard which means that
it's not usable as a programmable signal source as it stands (but see
later).

For approximately six seconds after power is applied a 10MHz signal
available on the output connector, this signal comes directly from the
XC9572 CPLD via a filter network and appears to be a clean sine wave.

The 10MHz signal seems to be 'switched off' by some event in the unit, I
don't yet know if this is in response to an event or just a timed shutdown
but power cycling the unit re-enables the 10MHz output for a further six
seconds. It doesn't appear to be related to rubidium lock as it takes
consdierably longer than six seconds to lock.

There is a solid 30MHz signal inside the unit, stable once the rubidium has
locked and the PPS output is also available once locked.

Other observations show that the MAX3232 serial driver chip is missing and
in it's place there is a tiny 8 pin device marked M09 or MO9 which is
connected to the TXD/RXD pins on the output connector and the TXD/RXD pins
on the 80C323 CPU.

I'd be very interested in suggestions as to the part number of that device,
it may yield clues as to the communication method needed.

Attempts to communicate with it via a terminal program have given no
responses at several 'standard' baud rates. Voltage levels are LVTTL.

I'm wary of applying 5V to any of the pins on the interface connector
directly and probing them with 3.3v via a 10K resistor has made no
difference to any of the signals I can monitor (30MHz, PPS etc.) with the
exception of pin 13 which I *think* is reset, obviously this causes the
frequencies to skew for a few seconds until reset is completed.

My intent is to use the 30MHz signal from the CPLD to clock a DDS chip
(probably one of the eBay DDS modules) that's controlled by a PIC chip (I
already have code to run a DDS VFO I developed earlier this and late last
year. Hopefully this will be small enough to fit inside the casing though I
don't see a problem with bringing the 30MHz signal out if necessary.

My apologies if this is outside of the scope of this list, I will also be
writing up my findings and experiments with this standard on my blog if
anyone is interested?



On 26 September 2015 at 11:23, Bryan _  wrote:

> Thanks Hal, that's interesting, will try and see how far I can get.
> -=Bryan=-
>
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > From: hmur...@megapathdsl.net
> > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 23:40:40 -0700
> > CC: hmur...@megapathdsl.net
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680B Rubidium and DDS
> >
> >
> > > I as well wish there was a quick way of converting it back to 10Mhz. I
> am
> > > sure it can be done, just not sure how or where to look
> >
> > If the 10 MHz is visible for a second or two, there is probably a gate to
> > turn it on/off.  If I wanted 10 MHz, I'd open it up and trace the wire
> back.
> > If it goes to a gate, you might be able to lift the pin for the other
> input
> > and wire it hi/low.  There is a good chance it goes to a FPGA where you
> can't
> > get at the gate.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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> To unsubscribe, go to
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> and follow the instructions there.
>



-- 
Clint.

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of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680B Rubidium and DDS

[Clint Jay]

Bryan, I think we do, bought from an eBay seller named Fluke.I?

I also found that schematic but it's a partial, very useful nonetheless.

There's also a dump of the firmware and CPLD so I'm hoping I can make some
sense of that to work out the CPLD, I'd be happy with a solid 10MHz output
but to my mind, if I can clock an AD9851 with the 30MHz signal I can get
'as good as' with the same or better performance to the serially
programmable DDS module.

My thinking may of course be flawed, I'm new to the whole time nut game and
am learning as I go.

The M09 chip seems to be in place of the MAX3232 chip, coupling RX/TX from
connectors to the CPU, it may be an opto but the package is tiny so it'd
not offer much isolation, I'll take another look this evening and work out
the connections fully.

On 29 September 2015 at 21:06, Bryan _  wrote:

>
>
>
> Hi Clint:
> Looks like we have the identical board. I suspect the XC9572 is turning
> off the 10Mhz, although why would it wait for 6 seconds?. And as you say
> it's not related to the "lock" . Here is a schematic I found for a FE-5680A.
>
> http://www.rhodiatoce.com/pics/time-nuts/FE-5680A/FE-5680A_schematics_v0.1.pdf
> I also note the same strange chip in the middle of the absent Max233,
> wonder if it is some type of optoisolator to protect
> inputs/outputs?Although not sure why one would be needed if the MAX232 is
> unpopulated.
>
> -=Bryan=-
>
> > Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 15:41:37 +0100
> > From: cjaysh...@gmail.com
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680B Rubidium and DDS
> >
> > I've made some investigations and re-confirmed my earlier findings on the
> > FE-5680B I have.
> >
> > It locks from cold in under five minutes and runs at approximately 700mA
> > steady with the expected PPS signal on the output connector when locked.
> >
> > The particular 5680 I have has a Hi Density 15p male connector on the
> > output and uses a single 15V supply, part number FE5680B UN 77672.
> >
> > The device does not have the optional DDS daughterboard which means that
> > it's not usable as a programmable signal source as it stands (but see
> > later).
> >
> > For approximately six seconds after power is applied a 10MHz signal
> > available on the output connector, this signal comes directly from the
> > XC9572 CPLD via a filter network and appears to be a clean sine wave.
> >
> > The 10MHz signal seems to be 'switched off' by some event in the unit, I
> > don't yet know if this is in response to an event or just a timed
> shutdown
> > but power cycling the unit re-enables the 10MHz output for a further six
> > seconds. It doesn't appear to be related to rubidium lock as it takes
> > consdierably longer than six seconds to lock.
> >
> > There is a solid 30MHz signal inside the unit, stable once the rubidium
> has
> > locked and the PPS output is also available once locked.
> >
> > Other observations show that the MAX3232 serial driver chip is missing
> and
> > in it's place there is a tiny 8 pin device marked M09 or MO9 which is
> > connected to the TXD/RXD pins on the output connector and the TXD/RXD
> pins
> > on the 80C323 CPU.
> >
> > I'd be very interested in suggestions as to the part number of that
> device,
> > it may yield clues as to the communication method needed.
> >
> > Attempts to communicate with it via a terminal program have given no
> > responses at several 'standard' baud rates. Voltage levels are LVTTL.
> >
> > I'm wary of applying 5V to any of the pins on the interface connector
> > directly and probing them with 3.3v via a 10K resistor has made no
> > difference to any of the signals I can monitor (30MHz, PPS etc.) with the
> > exception of pin 13 which I *think* is reset, obviously this causes the
> > frequencies to skew for a few seconds until reset is completed.
> >
> > My intent is to use the 30MHz signal from the CPLD to clock a DDS chip
> > (probably one of the eBay DDS modules) that's controlled by a PIC chip (I
> > already have code to run a DDS VFO I developed earlier this and late last
> > year. Hopefully this will be small enough to fit inside the casing
> though I
> > don't see a problem with bringing the 30MHz signal out if necessary.
> >
> > My apologies if this is outside of the scope of this list, I will also be
> > writing up my findings and experiments with this standard on my blog if
> > anyone is interested?
> >
> >
> >
> > On 26 September 2015 at 11:23, Bryan _  wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks Hal, that's interesting, will try and see how far I can get.
> > > -=Bryan=-
> > >
> > > > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > > > From: hmur...@megapathdsl.net
> > > > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 23:40:40 -0700
> > > > CC: hmur...@megapathdsl.net
> > > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680B Rubidium and DDS
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I as well wish there was a quick way of converting it back to
> 10Mhz. I
> > > am
> > > > > sure it can be done, just not sure how or where to look
> > > >
> > > > If the 10 MHz is visible for a second or two, there is

Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680B Rubidium and DDS

[Clint Jay]

I *think* that's the method posted by the seller of my unit and it's a
modification requiring an extra chip to divide the 20MHz signal down.

I am hoping to be able to re-enable the original 10MHz signal and use the
original filter as fitted to the board.

Still handy if you need 10MHz though.

On 30 September 2015 at 15:32, cfo  wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Sep 2015 07:36:30 +0100, Clint Jay wrote:
>
> *** SNIP 
> > so it may be
> > possible to modify the B version Bryan and I have.
> *** SNIP 
>
> Someone just published a 10Mhz writeup on eevblog
> http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fe-5680b-1pps-to-10mhz/30/?
> action=post;quote=767280;last_msg=767313
>
> http://andrelubbock.blogspot.co.nz/2015/09/rubidium-frequency-
> standard.html
>
> CFO
> Denmark
>
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> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
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> and follow the instructions there.
>



-- 
Clint.

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of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680B Rubidium and DDS

[Clint Jay]

The 9851 will work with pretty much any clock and give an output but of
course you need a decent speed clock to get a useful range of frequencies.

The handy feature of the 9851 is that it has a clock multiplier built in so
that 30MHz can clock it at its maximum speed and give a useful DC-60MHz
output.

I'm a little past the point where the author is, I'm working my way through
the CPLD dump..

On 30 September 2015 at 20:54, Bryan _  wrote:

> Clint, Yes, same seller. Yes schematic is partial, but it did answer a
> question for me that I posted on eevblog where others suggested removing a
> number of components to feed the 20Mhz to a divider. Looks like its a
> resistor, cap and inductor from the schematic; R1,C1,L1.
> I see, you want to make a easily reprogrammable frequency generator. I
> haven't looked at the datasheet of  the AD9851, but thought it needed a
> 125Mhz crystal. Probably just easier to use a circuit like this.
> http://www.perdrix.co.uk/FrequencyDivider/index.html
>
> http://www.ka7oei.com/FE-5680_diag_1c.gif   (would still need to divide
> first)
> I was planning on the same, but just using the /2 for a 10Mhz out in the
> first link.
> Was always hoping for a easy mod inside the "B", but from the write up
> that was just posted, the author has scoped it pretty well and it appears
> the disappearing 10Mhz appears to be firmware driven.
> Cheers
>
> -=Bryan=-
>
> > Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 11:45:49 +0100
> > From: cjaysh...@gmail.com
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680B Rubidium and DDS
> >
> > Bryan, I think we do, bought from an eBay seller named Fluke.I?
> >
> > I also found that schematic but it's a partial, very useful nonetheless.
> >
> > There's also a dump of the firmware and CPLD so I'm hoping I can make
> some
> > sense of that to work out the CPLD, I'd be happy with a solid 10MHz
> output
> > but to my mind, if I can clock an AD9851 with the 30MHz signal I can get
> > 'as good as' with the same or better performance to the serially
> > programmable DDS module.
> >
> > My thinking may of course be flawed, I'm new to the whole time nut game
> and
> > am learning as I go.
> >
> > The M09 chip seems to be in place of the MAX3232 chip, coupling RX/TX
> from
> > connectors to the CPU, it may be an opto but the package is tiny so it'd
> > not offer much isolation, I'll take another look this evening and work
> out
> > the connections fully.
> >
> > On 29 September 2015 at 21:06, Bryan _  wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Clint:
> > > Looks like we have the identical board. I suspect the XC9572 is turning
> > > off the 10Mhz, although why would it wait for 6 seconds?. And as you
> say
> > > it's not related to the "lock" . Here is a schematic I found for a
> FE-5680A.
> > >
> > >
> http://www.rhodiatoce.com/pics/time-nuts/FE-5680A/FE-5680A_schematics_v0.1.pdf
> > > I also note the same strange chip in the middle of the absent Max233,
> > > wonder if it is some type of optoisolator to protect
> > > inputs/outputs?Although not sure why one would be needed if the MAX232
> is
> > > unpopulated.
> > >
> > > -=Bryan=-
> > >
> > > > Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 15:41:37 +0100
> > > > From: cjaysh...@gmail.com
> > > > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680B Rubidium and DDS
> > > >
> > > > I've made some investigations and re-confirmed my earlier findings
> on the
> > > > FE-5680B I have.
> > > >
> > > > It locks from cold in under five minutes and runs at approximately
> 700mA
> > > > steady with the expected PPS signal on the output connector when
> locked.
> > > >
> > > > The particular 5680 I have has a Hi Density 15p male connector on the
> > > > output and uses a single 15V supply, part number FE5680B UN 77672.
> > > >
> > > > The device does not have the optional DDS daughterboard which means
> that
> > > > it's not usable as a programmable signal source as it stands (but see
> > > > later).
> > > >
> > > > For approximately six seconds after power is applied a 10MHz signal
> > > > available on the output connector, this signal comes directly from
> the
> > > > XC9572 CPLD via a filter network and appears to be a clean sine wave.
> > > >
> > > > The 10MHz signal seems to be 'switched off' by some event in the
> unit, I
> > > > don't yet know if this is in response to an event or just a timed
> > > shutdown
> > > > but power cycling the unit re-enables the 10MHz output for a further
> six
> > > > seconds. It doesn't appear to be related to rubidium lock as it takes
> > > > consdierably longer than six seconds to lock.
> > > >
> > > > There is a solid 30MHz signal inside the unit, stable once the
> rubidium
> > > has
> > > > locked and the PPS output is also available once locked.
> > > >
> > > > Other observations show that the MAX3232 serial driver chip is
> missing
> > > and
> > > > in it's place there is a tiny 8 pin device marked M09 or MO9 which is
> > > > connected to the TXD/RXD pins on the output connector and the TXD/RXD
> > > pins

Re: [time-nuts] UBLOX LEA-5T Programming?

[Clint Jay]

I am still learning and want to understand, if the PPS is good then why is
the programmable output bad, as I understand it thus far, the PPS is
derived from the same clock source or have I got that badly wrong?

On 9 October 2015 at 12:16, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Doing a GPSDO by locking to the awful 10 MHz output from any of these GPS
> modules
> is not going to work very well. Given the very long time constants
> involved in a GPSDO
> control loop, doing it without code is going to be pretty difficult.
>
> A much easier approach:
>
> Grab the GPS PPS and a scope. Use it to set the Lucent boxes on frequency.
> Repeat the process
> once a week.  The direct lock will flop around by (likely many) ppb. Your
> manual set will probably keep it
> under 1 ppb for a week.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Oct 9, 2015, at 1:39 AM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > I have six of the older style (anodized solid aluminum case) Lucent
> crystal oscillators that I’d like to turn into simple 10 MHZ output
> GPSDO’s. I have some salvaged HP cases so I can have a linear PS and all
> other stuff in one package.
> > I’ve found two different choices of GPS relatively low cost units on
> Ebay.
> > One is a LUCENT M12+ GPS Timing Receiver W/100 Hz output  for  $19.99
> Item 171886538138.
> > The other is a UBLOX LEA-5T GPS module dev board 1PPS /USB/RS232/ntp ser
> with two 1 PPS outputs for $49.90. Item 251785217093.
> > IIRC, one output of a Ublox can be set to a 10 MHz.
> > Can this model be set to have a 10 MHz output and is it easily done from
> a PC? I have no coding ability.
> > For more money I’d get a simpler phase detector circuit, which is all
> I’m looking for. For less money I’d have to build more circuitry.
> > A factor I don’t know is if the ublox is that much better/newer to
> justify the price difference.
> > I already have packed away two Oncore units with either a 1 KHz or 10
> KHz output.
> > Suggestions welcomed.
> >  Regards,
> > Perrier
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>
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> and follow the instructions there.
>



-- 
Clint.

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of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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Re: [time-nuts] UBLOX LEA-5T Programming?

[Clint Jay]

I'd second that,  sounds interesting and plenty of accuracy for the project
I'm thinking of.
On 10 Oct 2015 15:00, "Alex Pummer"  wrote:

> Hi Bert,
> where could I get more inf on on that project?
> 73
> KJ6UHN
> Alex
>
> On 10/10/2015 4:23 AM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote:
>
>> We did a GPS PLL using ublox M7 not for time nuts but for Hams no u
>> processors, simple to build  with readily available parts with
>> performance  of 1
>> E-10.. Hams still have get to gether and it would make sense to order the
>> parts. Boards would be less than $ 2 in quantity 10.  5X5 cm board can
>> also
>> work with other VCXO's.
>> Data is attached
>> Bert Kehren
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Referenced Programmable Oscillator...

[Clint Jay]

*I MAY BE WRONG*  But...

Something is telling me I've run across that device before and it uses a
PLL with inbuilt VCO,  if I'm right then it's fairly close to the reference
design for the device plus an atmega processor and the schematics are
available somewhere on the site
On 19 Oct 2015 14:04, "Attila Kinali"  wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Oct 2015 17:56:36 -0700
> "Burt I. Weiner"  wrote:
>
> > I just ran across this and wonder what you think.
> >
> >
> http://www.force12inc.com/products/gps-locked-precision-frequency-reference-low-jitter-gps-clock-450-hz-to-800-mhz-output.html
> >
> > Seems like it could be set up as a reference to replace crystals in
> > some Ham rigs such as a repeater transmitter and receiver.
>
>
> I've seen this being mentioned a couple of times in the past weeks.
> The phase noise looks ok'ish. Not great, but not too bad either.
> Though I doubt that he'll be much below the noise floor of his instrument.
> 140dBc is about what you get with most VCXO/TCXOs. To be better you
> need to know what you are doing and/or use a good oscillator, which
> becomes expensive (a good, low noise VCXO costs already 100USD
> in small volumes unless you build it with discrete components,
> which then takes considerable knowledge).
>
> An ADEV plot and any kind of schematics are missing completely.
> Also without any reference, I would distrust the way how the
> system is build. There are ways how people trying to do the right
> thing will mess up in subtle ways. (e.g. like using an FLL instead
> of a true PLL, as is the case for the BG7TBL GPSDO)
>
> For 200EUR, it's also on the expensive side, if you compare it with
> what you can get on ebay. Of course, there is the difference between
> a used device and a new device.
>
> On a personal note, the product description reads too much like
> "hey, the guy who designed this is really really great!"
> I am not sure what I should make of that, but I don't think that's
> a positive attribute.
>
> In summary, I'd probably wait for a time-nuts to get his hands on this
> litte gadget and do some serious measurements before I'd trust it.
>
> Attila Kinali
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
>  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 53131A display dim

[Clint Jay]

This may sound silly but aside from the failing capacitors that cause
displays to dim,  the emissions falling and other esoteric issues,  in my
years repairing VCRs with VFDs I most often found a good clean of the glass
and bezel would improve the brightness a considerable amount.
On 9 Nov 2015 05:30, "Chuck Harris"  wrote:

> The biggest cause of failure with VFD's that I have seen
> is the filament voltage drops too low.  Usually it is a bad
> capacitor in the supply, or a drifting resistor on the regulator.
>
> I have a VFD on an alarm clock made by GE back in 1980 that
> has been running 24/7 since it was bought, and is still way too
> bright.  I make my wife prop something to block it so that it
> doesn't keep me awake.
>
> -Chuck Harris
>
> cdel...@juno.com wrote:
>
>> Anyone know about these displays?
>>
>>   If the display is getting dim do I need a new VFD module?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Corby
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] SMD TADD-1 distribution amplifier - seeking comments and suggestions?

[Clint Jay]

I once spent a very miserable but profitable weekend remaking a thin
ethernet network where the "installation expert" had stripped back 10B2
coax four inches and neatly separated core and shield,  heatshrinked them
into pigtails and then soldered them into panel mount BNC sockets.

He was outraged when I suggested his cabling skills weren't up to much,
insisting he had done many other installs like that and that it worked just
fine because his multimeter measured the correct termination resistance
from one end to the other.

The TDR and vastly improved network speed of course showed exactly how
wrong he was.
On 19 Dec 2015 22:00, "Poul-Henning Kamp"  wrote:

> 
> In message <56757344.2020...@rubidium.se>, Magnus Danielson writes:
>
> >The isolation strategy says that the various equipments should only be
> >power grounded, as required for personal safety, and then have all other
> >grounding paths "galvanically separated" (thus, DC and power frequencies
> >separated in common mode).
> >
> >The mesh strategy says that you extend the grounding of the power ground
> >with additional grounding with every cable and additional grounding
> >cables.
>
> Please bear in mind that there is a *huge* difference between
> single-ended (as in: RF-Coax-BNC) and balanced (as in: Audio-Twinax-XLR)
> for both of these scenarios.
>
> While you can get away with the isolation strategy with balanced,
> because you have high CMRR inputs, there is nothing to "take care
> of" the ground potentials in the single-ended mode.
>
> >As a reference, Ethernet is designed to work in an isolation BN setup,
> >[...]
>
> That is actually a new thing, the original Ethernet was 1/2" coax
> and ground-loops and lightning damage was the order of the day.
>
> The main reason Ethernet went balanced was actually for fault
> isolation (star-topology vs. bus) and signal quality (IT people
> were horrible at "sharking" and crimping coax.)
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Tait reference

[Clint Jay]

Thank you Nigel, I've also taken a gamble on one of these units and am
keeping my  fingers crossed that it has a Rb standard in it.

The service manual is most interesting, it looks like I could use one of
the two 'loops' to lock a different OCXO,  with a little tinkering it could
be a very useful unit as there's plenty of space inside for additions and
modifications.
Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ? They seem to  have
similar models with OCXOs etc.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111862884745

Hi Adrian,

The T801 first seems to have hit the UK surplus market around  2005/2006, I
was told a batch of a couple of hundred, and units from that  release were
still trickling through until around 2011 at least.
These were released by West Yorkshire Police when updating their UHF
mobile network and did contain rubidium standards.

The T801 contains dual nominal 12.8MHz  synthesisers with very fine
switched preset adjustment for base  station synchronisation. These are
locked to
an  external reference and can accept selected integer frequencies  from 1
to
10Mhz and also 12.8MHz.
If the internal 10MHz rubidium module is fitted and used as the  reference
then a short BNC link is required to couple the internal  reference output
to the external reference input.

These were originally sold on Ebay with particular reference to the
rubidium module, for most purchasers the 12.8MHz synthesiser board would
probably
have been of little interest, so I'm surprised to see no reference to  the
rubidium module with the several recent auctions. This may be due to  lack
of familiarity on the part of the seller but I certainly wouldn't want to
take anything for granted without asking.
I'm not sure either if the recent Ebay offerings are tail end leftovers
from that first batch or represent a more recent release, but I have seen a
number of failures with the rubidium modules in those bought between 2005
and 2011.
One at least was physically faulty with others refusing to lock,  either at
time of purchase or subsequently, I have some of the latter still  on the
ever growing "to do" pile.

According to the manual the rubidium module, where fitted,  was originally
a Quartzlock TF4010A, but all units I've seen have been  fitted with FEI
FE5660A modules. This required a degree of modification to  the chassis and
to
the heatsink and the quality of that work is often poor, so  quite likely a
field "upgrade".

The unit also contains a DC-DC convertor to derive the 24 Volt  supply for
the rubidium module from the 13.8 Volt input.
The lock on the front panel is just an ON/OFF keyswitch, if the key is
missing all those I've seen have been left in the ON position but it's
easily
bypassed anyway.

I've tried uploading my scan of the manual to Didier's site but gave  up
after repeated page reset errors, it is now available  here..
http://www.mediafire.com/view/0x5sa7o0s9pgc4s/Tait_T801_Frequency_Reference.
pdf

Regards

Nigel
GM8PZR


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Re: [time-nuts] Tait reference

[Clint Jay]

That's a very happy coincidence and one I'd hoped to hear.

The pictures in the auction seem to show a lack of tarnish on the Ref Out
and Ref In BNCs which suggests they have had plugs on them, looping the
internal reference, other little bits of information also pointed to that,
the remnants of a sticker on the front of one unit seems to say
'RUBID01...', past auctions of T801 units have been labelled with things
like 'RUBID048', the hex switches seem to be set correctly for use with an
internal reference as well so I was quietly confident they had the Rb
option fitted.

Now I just have to cross my fingers that mine arrive with the Rb in good
conditon. The seller also states 'working order' so there's possible scope
for a refund if it doesn't.

On 12 January 2016 at 12:24, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts 
wrote:

> Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ?  They seem  to  have
> similar models with OCXOs etc.
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111862884745
>
> ---
> Well now, how's this for a happy coincidence.
>
> I've just received an email from a friend who bought a Tait T801 from  that
> very same auction, asking about the rubidium module that he  found inside
> it:-)
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> Gm8PZR
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-- 
Clint.

*No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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Re: [time-nuts] PRS10 C900 replacement

[Clint Jay]

Do tantalum then benefit from being 'reformed'  in a similar fashion to wet
electrolytics?

Do they recover from moisture ingress by baking in a similar fashion to SMD
chips that have been stored incorrectly?
On 20 Jan 2016 14:10, "Bob Camp"  wrote:

> Hi
>
>
> The only thing I would add to that is:
>
> Get it from Mouser or Digi-Key. That way you have a pretty good chance of
> it being one
> that really came from the manufacturer you think it’s coming from. You
> also are a lot
> less likely to get one that has been on the shelf forever and ever.
>
> One really strange thing about Tantalum’s: They *like* bias and
> temperature. The
> time you are most likely to see high leakage is when they have been power
> off for
> a long time. That’s another reason to want a new one …
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jan 20, 2016, at 1:59 AM, Charles Steinmetz 
> wrote:
> >
> > david wrote:
> >
> >> It's a 2.2uF cap, with a 0.125" lead spacing, and I'm looking for 125dC
> temp rating. I wondered if there were other characteristics such as ESR/ESL
> I need to keep in mind.
> >
> > You're on the right track.  Get the highest temperature rating available
> (which is probably 125C), buy only caps manufactured by one of the
> known-good manufacturers, and select from a parts series the manufacturer
> designates as "high reliability" (or equivalent).
> >
> > If it is a solid tantalum, I like the Vishay 199D Series.  The AVX TAP
> Series and the Kemet "T" Series ("UltraDip II") are also high quality.
> (This list isn't exhaustive -- these are just the ones I've had occasion to
> qualify.)
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Charles
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort

[Clint Jay]

I would imagine it was much less expensive for HP to gut second hand
equipment and re-qualify it than restart a fab or qualify a new design
front end.
On 25 Jan 2016 16:01, "Bert Kehren via time-nuts" 
wrote:

> Getting back to the original question, years ago I was told but could not
> confirm that HP was buying up 5345's because of a Government commitment to
> replace front ends. If they had to go to such matters I doubt we will be
> able to  find a solution.
> In my home counter work I tried but ended up using boards out of  5345's
> Bert Kehren
>
>
> In a message dated 1/25/2016 10:01:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz writes:
>
> I've  been considering this for some time.The key is the replacement for
> the  triggered phase locked oscillator based interpolators.
> FPGA based TDCs  aren't yet quite good enough.
> Off the shelf TDC chips are a little better  but still fall a little short
> in performance.
>
> Whilst a TAC approach can  achieve around 4ps or so (eg various Wavecrest
> instruments) a lot of discrete  parts are  likely to be required.
>
> My crude testing of a triggered  damped sinewave generator sampled by an RF
> ADC indicates that an event time  stamp noise of 5ps or better appears
> feasible.
>
> The technique of  exciting a high Q saw bandpass filter with an impulse and
> digitising  the  output is probably more expensive and complex than
> desirable.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> On Monday, 25 January 2016  6:04 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>
>
> Hi
>
> Since the  front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take more than
> a bit of time  to
> replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front panel board is the  most
> likely way to “fix”
> the problem. The question is - why do that at all?  Just do a PC instrument
> that does the same
> thing as the counter with way  less effort…..
>
> Bob
>
>
> > On Jan 24, 2016, at 6:02 PM,  Dimitri.p  wrote:
> >
> > Someday , someone  will get bored with everything else and give it a try,
> you know, in their  spare time.
> > The time when these counter were new was a long while  ago.
> > Back then an amplifier chip with 500MHZ BW was a much bigger deal  than
> it is in 2016.
> > ...but spare time is permanently on backorder   :)
> >
> > Dimitri
> >
> > At 06:15 AM 1/24/2016, Bob Camp  wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> Back when these counters (5345,  5370, 5335) all were new, the inputs
> were
> >> the weak link on all of  them. There were known âdonât do thatâ things
> on the line
> >> that  would blow out each of them. Regardless of the level of care and
> yelling,  inputs
> >> blew on a fairly regular basis. Probably 10% of the  counters went back
> >> for repair over a 5 year period. It was always  a âswap out the entire
> boardâ sort
> >> of repair and never was under  $1K. We regularly spent the price of a
> new counter
> >> each year on  repairs. If there had been an easy way to fix them,  (or
> even to  just
> >> pay $500 for the chip) we would have done it.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> > On Jan 24, 2016, at 8:34 AM,  Dale Cannon 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >>  > Funny,
> >> >
> >> > A friend asked me if I could  replicate the front end for a 5370A, a
> many
> >> > years back. I  related to him that replicating the input chip was not
> a
> >> >  trivial task. His 5370A had been used (by someone else) for direct
> testing
> >> > of controlled-motion DC motors and the front end had  obviously been
> >> > overstressed by voltage spiking. At the time,  I had considered
> replicating
> >> > the front-end probe circuit of a  K100D logic analyzer: FET diff. pair
> >> > followed by an ECL 10216  line driver. Obviously most daughterboard or
> dead
> >> > bug  modification approaches have downsides; in the end I just
> couldn't  cut
> >> > up the HP front end and told him to search for a more  qualified
> repair
> >> > facility.
> >> >
> >> >  BAMA boat anchors has the K100D manual and probe schematic.
> >>  >
> >> >  Dale  Cannon  KS4FA
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >  -Original Message-
> >> > From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of
> Mathew
> >> >  Breton
> >> > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 5:15 PM
> >>  > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> >> > Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B  & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
> >> >
> >> > I  was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems,
> >>  > probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with
> a  set
> >> > of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a  cheap pair of
> >> > 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
> >> > This  sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an
> open-source
> >> > drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to  the original IC
> designer,
> >> > as it is not a trivial effort due  to the wide input signal
> common-mode
> >> > range, and very tight  trigger timing requirements. Other items (like
> the
> >> > E-ECL)  output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
> >> > I'm hoping  that someone(s) might be interested

[time-nuts] Aeroflex IFR 3413

[Clint Jay]

I've acquired from eBay a 'faulty' Aeroflex IFR 3413 signal generator with
Option 001 (no attenuator) and an error 509 which I think would indicate
it's had power applied to the output port.

Does anyone have service information for these generators?

I'm also looking for firmware upgrades and any experience of adding
'options' I.E. is it possible to add the mechanical or electronic
attenuator options ?

-- 
Clint.

*No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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Re: [time-nuts] Calibration procedures - what is normal?

[Clint Jay]

Generally, whenever I've had a non manufacturer 'calibration' it's been a
certification service that tells you your equipment is within spec and
gives you the variances and probability of uncertainty,  a pass/fail test.

Where equipment was out of spec then any service to bring it within spec
was usually charged extra but the level of equipment we needed meant the
test year was thrown away and new was purchased  it was cheaper than having
it adjusted.

I sent my HP 3457A in for cal. I should be getting it back next week.
I won't mention where I sent it, but it wasn't Keysight (I don't like
that name). I recently changed the SRAM battery and purposely did not
save the cal constants. I bought the meter second hand and it wasn't
in spec when I bought it. I didn't care what the past data was.

The service manual lists an entire sequence of procedures for
calibrating this DMM, starting with storing values for zero and full
scale into the SRAM. All of this is done via the front panel, by
pushing buttons.

I just found out that this part of the procedure is not normally done
(at least by the lab I sent the DMM to). With no pre-existing cal
constants, the tech I spoke to was rather annoyed that he was having
to spend the time doing the hookups and pushing buttons for each
function and range to store the zero and full scale values. I was told
this added an extra hour to the normal procedure.

Not knowing what is normally done in the cal lab, I assumed that the
entire procedure as listed in the service manual would be done. It
seems that I was wrong.

In the end, the lab decided not to charge me for the extra time
involved. I thanked them for that.

My question is, do any cal labs (including Keysight) normally perform
the zero and full scale procedures as listed in the service manual?

Joe Gray
W5JG
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Re: [time-nuts] Calibration procedures - what is normal?

[Clint Jay]

I have to say,  I'm hugely impressed by the Aeroflex 3413 I've bought and
Cobham's customer service response has so far been excellent but I suspect
it will be far too expensive for me to buy repair parts which is a shame.
On 13 Feb 2016 09:14, "Dave Brown"  wrote:

> Cobham is a UK based defence and high end security supplier- originally
> formed (not too many years ago)  by their buying out of several other
> companies in their lines of business. More recently they have got into
> aerospace activities.  As you might expect, they supply some rather
> expensive and exotic stuff.  Purchase of Aeroflex seems like a step in a
> different direction but who knows?
> DaveB, NZ
>
> - Original Message - From: "Joseph Gray" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 6:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Calibration procedures - what is normal?
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist
>>  wrote:
>>
>> I left Agilent just before the split, but I don't know
>>> anyone there who liked that name.  Or the logo :-)
>>>
>>
>> Another recent name change (acquisition) that is even worse is
>> Aeroflex to Cobham. I realize that Cobham is probably a family name
>> that was used when their business was started eons ago, but geez, in
>> all these years, they couldn't have come up with a better name for the
>> company? Even when it went from IFR to Aeroflex, that wasn't a bad
>> name at all.
>>
>> In the coming fiscal year, we'll be spending close to $100K to buy
>> some Cobham (yuck!) service monitors (or communication analyzers as
>> they like to call them). Going to P25, the venerable HP 8920A just
>> doesn't cut it any more. As for the $100K, we're small potatoes. I was
>> told that an unnamed customer recently bought hundreds of units. It's
>> like that line "A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon, you're
>> talking real money."
>>
>> Joe Gray
>> W5JG
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Re: [time-nuts] SoftMark USB to GPIB converter

[Clint Jay]

You can have things made anywhere in  the world if you pay some Chinese
factories enough.
On 3 Mar 2016 16:01, "John Green"  wrote:

> I noticed some US made ones on the auction site for cheap. They say they
> offer a 30 day money back guarantee. Hmmm
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:27 AM, gonzo .  wrote:
>
> > No - Please don't.
> > No more of us need be burnt by that POS.
> >
> > Once you've bought it, you discover all you can do is send one command at
> > a time until you buy additional software to get the DLL needed to do
> > anything even remotely interesting.
> > The documentation is terrible to the point the 'free' DLL has the same
> > name as the 'paid' version, so it took me several emails (if you get a
> > reply, you're doing well) to workout why why it didn't work as described.
> >
> > By far the best 'affordable' GPIB to USB adapter on the market is the
> > Prologix (http://prologix.biz/).
> > If you are interested in building your own, have a look at  Anders take
> on
> > an open design (http://www.dalton.ax/gpib/).
> >
> > Cheers,
> > ian
> >
> > --
> > I have a desire to do some data collection and storage from my Racal
> 1992,
> > and I need a USB to GPIB converter. We have a National Instruments
> > converter at work, but I want to do this at home. The SoftMark unit is
> > considerably less expensive than the NI one. Does it work? Specifically,
> > would it work with my 1992? I seem to remember some discussion from way
> > back that they don't play well with a lot of HP/Agilent/Keysight stuff.
> Has
> > anyone with a 1992 used it with a SoftMark converter?
> >
> >
> > --
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Re: [time-nuts] Sphere Stuff Day Datbook DVDs, chock full of goodies

[Clint Jay]

Would it be possible they could be uploaded somewhere as a torrent file?
On 9 Mar 2016 10:00, "walter shawlee 2"  wrote:

> I was trolling for old data catalogs, and found some great and VERY useful
> data and app books for National, TI, Signetics, GE, DATA, Alpha, Mullard,
> RCA, etc.  Everything from diodes, transistors and ICs to vacuum tubes.
> Yes, all the key Tek and HP semiconductor cross-refs too.  Even Tunnel
> Diode databooks. Wahoo...real data heaven...Even the complete time code
> format index from Datum.
>
> I will have compilations of these databooks on DVD for those here at Stuff
> Day (Saturday, April 9th), they will then hopefully make it back to many
> other spots, and can then just be locally copied as needed.  There is a
> treasure trove of great hard to find data here, which would fill several
> overflowing shelves. These will save you a lot of searching and
> downloading, I hope they prove useful to everybody.
>
> Sorry, I just can't mail them out to everybody in the group, but I don't
> mind sending a copy to a central spot for further sharing. The DVD is full.
>
> all the best,
> walter & susan
> sphere research corp.
> http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/
>
> --
> Walter Shawlee 2, President
> Sphere Research Corporation
> 3394 Sunnyside Rd.,  West Kelowna,  BC
> V1Z 2V4  CANADA  Phone: (250) 769-1834
> walt...@sphere.bc.ca
> WS2: We're all in one boat, no matter how it looks to you.
> Love is all you need. (John Lennon)
> But, that doesn't mean other things don't come in handy. (WS2)
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt GPSDO Troubleshooting

[Clint Jay]

That 232 chip should run at near as damnit ambient so I'd say it's highly
likely to be dead.

Replacement should be a doddle
On 25 Mar 2016 19:02, "Ryan Stasel"  wrote:

> All,
>
> I recently got an (obviously used) Trimble Thunderbolt (case says Rev B).
> Hooking it up to my bench PS, I got the unit fired up, and the OCXO
> relatively rapidly settled down to just over 26hz over 10Mhz (According to
> my Racal-Dana 1992, which I’ve found to be EXTREMELY accurate compared to
> an Rb and other GPSDO). I thought that meant the PLL had locked, but I’ve
> since reconsidered since it didn’t take that long (looks like it takes
> quite a bit longer than that for the GPS to do a survey). Sadly, I couldn’t
> check the serial connection because I left my adapter at work, so I left it
> for the night.
>
> Next day, I hooked a serial connection up, and got nothing at all.
> Checking the TX pin of the unit with my scope, I could see bursts of data,
> but with less than 1V deviation from the idle voltage level.
>
> So, I opened the unit up, and a quick inspection showed me pints 78 and 79
> (according to data sheet, those are TDO and +5V) on the Xilinx XC5202 were
> bridged with solder. That’s odd. Also had obviously been reworked at some
> point due to the heavy amounts of flux residue around. After finally
> finding a good image of this area online (
> http://www.thegleam.com/ke5fx/tbolt/conns.gif), I determined that they
> shouldn’t be bridged, and fixed that. Powered the unit back up, and still
> nothing. Also noting that the 5V rail was drawing over 600mA. Finger
> testing around the board quickly found the RS232 chip (232IBE, now called
> an ICL232) to be HOT! That it gets so almost immediately after power on.
> Checking the pins, the +5V and GND for that chip show about 54ohms
> resistance. I checked the support tantalums and ceramic caps around it, but
> they all show higher resistance (Keithley 6.5digit meter for the win).
>
> So, my questions to all: pull the IC and see if there’s any data showing
> up on pin 11 or 10 (haven’t traced out which is being used), just replace
> the chip (I _MIGHT_ have an extra (ICL232, MAX232, etc) in a drawer
> somewhere), or should I look somewhere else for an issue (shorted Tantalum,
> etc)? Guess just pulling the chip and seeing if the power draw on the 5V
> goes down might not be a bad bet either (I do have a hot air rework “gun”).
> Or just clip/lift it’s 5V pin and see if that resolves the issue. The unit
> should still lock eventually without that chip.
>
> Anything else I might want to check?
>
> Thanks all, and thanks Tom Van Baak for the encouragement to test more
> before posting to the list. =)
>
> -Ryan Stasel
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Re: [time-nuts] Oncore battery

[Clint Jay]

Very handy,  I've picked up a few Oncore receivers recently and was
planning to test them all and then replace the batteries in the good
ones.  Has anyone worked out what the original charge circuit schematic is
though?
On 25 Apr 2016 13:01, "Pete Stephenson"  wrote:

> I have several 5V Oncore UT+ receivers of the type that did not
> include a rechargeable on-board battery, but didn't want to bother
> with lithium primary batteries or rechargeable batteries and their
> associated holders so I opted to use supercapacitors. Specifically, I
> use the Panasonic EEC-F5R5U105 supercap with a capacitance of 1F and a
> max voltage rating of 5.5V.
>
> Charging is easy: I simply run 5V power through a diode and a resistor
> sized to prevent exceeding the diode's current limit and the capacitor
> charges in about 20-30 minutes. The diode prevents the supercap from
> discharging through the resistor when the power fails.
>
> I use a 1N4148 small signal diode rather than a 1N400x-series diode
> because the 1N4148 has a smaller reverse leakage current. A 240 ohm
> resistor keeps the peak current to 20mA (the diode can handle up to
> 200mA forward current) and the capacitor is charged up in about 20
> minutes after power-on. Adjust the values for your specific needs.
> Once charged, it maintains the Oncore's RAM for several weeks with no
> power.
>
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Azelio Boriani
>  wrote:
> > Panasonic ML621 or equivalent. Alternatively you can use the battery
> > pin (pin 6): remove the onboard battery and use en external primary
> > cell (CR2032 or equivalent). See pages 15 to 21 of the M12M user
> > manual.
> > <
> http://www.ilotus.com.sg/~ilotus/sites/all/themes/zeropoint/pdf/m12m/M12M%20-%20User%20Guide%20%28Ver%201.0.0%29.pdf
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:11 AM, Joseph Gray  wrote:
> >> Can anyone recommend a rechargeable lithium coin cell that is a direct
> >> replacement for the ones that come on some Oncore receivers? Something
> >> I can order from Mouser or Digikey, if possible.
> >>
> >> Joe Gray
> >> W5JG
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>
> --
> Pete Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] Have I wrecked my FE-5680A?

[Clint Jay]

They use a WSI/ST chip, the PSD813 which is a system chip, it contains
Flash ROM, RAM and peripherals, it's programmed via JTAG.

I'm very interested in obtaining either boards from or complete faulty
units as I believe there's a possibility that these units are configured
with various options being enabled or disabled in EEPROM.

I have a dump of the contents from one device, I'd like more to compare,
preferably from several  'known' configurations.

My original question to Nick was me wondering if he had somehow corrupted
or altered the configuration of the device (it's still possible that he has
and 'all' it needs is a reset to defaults)

Quite how this would be achieved and if it would erase factory programmed
characterisations is an entirely different matter.

On 29 April 2016 at 15:05, Chuck Harris  wrote:

> Likely what is happening is you are overrunning the RS232
> interrupt buffer, and that is causing a write into code
> space.  Odd that the firmware is changing, though.
>
> Does this thing have Flash RAM, or battery backed NVRAM (Dallas)?
>
> Oftentimes, NVRAM using devices use the NVRAM for both firmware,
> and data RAM space.  Things can get really ugly when that is done.
>
> Also, to test my guess, put a delay between each character
> sent to the FE-5680A.  Say, 2 or 3 ms.
>
> Needless to say before you do this, you need to develop a way
> of restoring the firmware.
>
> -Chuck Harris
>
>
> Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote:
>
>> Sadly yes
>> The reason we have not released our GPSDO for the FE5690/50 and FE405 is
>> that we have experienced the same on all three devices. You are the 9th
>> case
>> that I know of. We know very little as to what exactly causes it but we
>> are
>>   incorporating circuitry to prevent it. What we know is that it is not a
>> particular code sequence on the RS232 port, but what happens the operating
>> code  is turning to mush. Some how the RS port is involved. Serious flaw
>> on
>> all  FE devices since most likely the code was written by the same
>> individual.
>> Bert Kehren
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 4/28/2016 9:02:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>> time-nuts@febo.com writes:
>>
>> Just as I  started testing the GPS discipline board prototype, my FE-5680A
>> seems to have  developed a very odd problem.
>>
>> If I give it power, it outputs a “kinda”  10 MHz sine wave while it sweeps
>> around looking for a physics lock. This is as  expected.
>>
>> About the time that I would expect the lock light to turn on,  instead the
>> output just stops. The lock light never comes on.
>>
>> This  unit’s been working fine for months now. It’s conceivable that I’ve
>> sent it  some sort of serial command it couldn’t digest, but using the
>> Windows  calibrator software seems to work - albeit there not being any
>> output
>> from the  oscillator at  all.
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] GENIUS by Stephen Hawking (PBS TV), with 5071A cesium clocks

[Clint Jay]

To  my simple mind they'd be out but by a constant amount because they're
still locked to one master clock.   The discrepancy would be from the "time
of flight"  between the top and bottom of the mountain.

Or I may have completely misunderstood.
On 20 May 2016 17:01, "Peter Reilley"  wrote:

> I have a question.   I, of small brain, am wondering: if the time
> difference between the
> top of the mountain and the bottom of the mountain is 20 nS over 24 hours
> could you
> repeat the same experiment using GPS?The time difference of 20 nS is
> measurable
> using GPS.
>
> The GPS clock must run faster on the mountain top than the GPS at the
> mountain
> base and yet the two remain synchronized to the satellite reference.
>  Therefore
> the GPS 1 PPS signal (measurable to a few nS) must be wrong in in one of
> the local
> frame references.
>
> My brain hurts.
>
> Pete.
>
>
> On 5/20/2016 10:16 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> Ok, so *that* link got me to the episode. Very impressive stuff. Well
>> done !!!
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> On May 20, 2016, at 2:04 AM, Tom Van Baak  wrote:
>>>
>>> For those of you who missed the live TV broadcast, I'm told PBS has a
>>> live stream:
>>> http://www.pbs.org/video/2365757267/
>>>
>>> The cesium clock parts are in the last 15 minutes of the show.
>>> I also added more photos/plots to:
>>> http://leapsecond.com/great2016a/photos.htm
>>>
>>> /tvb
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Re: [time-nuts] One sure way to kill your FE-5680A or FE-5650A

[Clint Jay]

Sounds similar to the issues you encounter with Atmel and some other
EEPROM/Flash based MCUs when they're not held in reset until VCC becomes
stable.

http://atmel.force.com/support/articles/en_US/FAQ/Prevent-EEPROM-corruption

Some more info:

http://www.embedded.com/design/prototyping-and-development/4006422/Avoid-corruption-in-nonvolatile-memory



On 8 June 2016 at 16:20, jimlux  wrote:

> On 6/8/16 6:19 AM, paul swed wrote:
>
>> The units were never intended for a slow ramp
>> I assume it runs into a meta stable condition
>> Neither on or off and then corruption
>> Glad you're can repair them
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 7, 2016, Bob Camp  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
> Interesting, we just had a similar issue on a circuit here at work..
> someone slowly brought the supply voltage up on a bunch of DC/DC
> converters, and some didn't start. This was in initial checkout of a new
> board.
>
> Switch it on with a bang, and it works just fine.
>
> So for some of these things there's apparently a minimum dv/dt.
>
> I've seen this before with DC/DC converters.. if the voltage drops too
> low, they draw too much current - because they're basically constant power
> devices- and the overcurrent trip shuts them down.  There's a delicate
> interplay between the overcurrent and undervoltage trips,both of which have
> some sort of time constant, and I suspect that for a lot of circuits, the
> "slow ramp up of input voltage" isn't something they are designed for.
> Once it's up and running, when the supply sags, the UV trip works just
> fine, tripping before the OC trip goes.
>
>
> Linear regulators.. they may be not the most efficient thing in the world,
> but they have a lot less "weird" behavior.  (although I've had linear
> regulators go into thermally driven oscillation)
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] One sure way to kill your FE-5680A or FE-5650A

[Clint Jay]

It would seem so bit I don't remember seeing a 'reset'  chip in the 5680.
I'm wondering if there's scope to add one onto the rail that runs the PSD
and 80C320 to keep it in reset.
On 9 Jun 2016 13:00, "Bob Camp"  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Based on the number of different ways there seem to be to corrupt the
> operating software
> in the FE Rb’s …. they seem to have a unique problem. There are a *lot* of
> devices
> using the same basic parts that don’t turn into a brick when this or that
> happens.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jun 9, 2016, at 4:31 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:
> >
> >
> >> The ATTinys have brownout detectors in them that’s supposed to keep them
> >> from going bonkers during undervolt periods.
> >
> > Startup and/or brownout has long been a nasty problem area for digital
> > designers.
> >
> > In the old old days, there was typically a R/C delay on the reset pin to
> a
> > CPU.  That screwed up when the power supply ramped up slowly enough.
> Most
> > old timers have that merit badge.
> >
> > Modern CPU chips often have specs like power must be OK for 200 ms before
> > releasing Reset.  Anything like that will have at least one corresponding
> > power monitor chip with several supply voltage inputs and the appropriate
> > delay.
> >
> > The brownout side gets ugly when you look at the tolerances.  The
> tolerance
> > on the power monitor subtracts from the power supply tolerances.
> >
> > There is another worm in the can.  How long does it take for your
> oscillator
> > to get going?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> >
> >
> >
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[time-nuts] Elektor GPSDO

[Clint Jay]

Just throwing this into the lion's den.

https://www.elektormagazine.com/labs/gps-assisted-10-mhz-frequency-reference
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Re: [time-nuts] RS232 / GPS interface/prototyping board

[Clint Jay]

Life is so much easier now,  dirtypcb is a great service,  I have a pile of
boards here from them which are far greater quality than anything I could
hope to produce at home or even in the lab I used to have.  They're also
better quality than any of the local board houses I used in the past.

Having said that,  I did hand manufacture fifty single sided boards from
photo laminate to completed product in one weekend using a Dremel drill
press for somewhere around four thousand holes and hand soldering every
component so it was definitely possible
On 23 Jun 2016 00:01, "Nick Sayer via time-nuts"  wrote:

>
> > On Jun 22, 2016, at 1:33 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> >
> > The value, quality, and turn-around from all these places is amazing.
>  In the olden days, one was paying $50 a square inch for a single prototype
> board with 4 week turn-around.
> >
>
> Not to turn this into the “Four Yorkshireman” sketch, but in the olden
> days (which by my reckoning were maybe only 10 years ago) there wasn’t
> reasonable hobbyist access to PCB CAD software either - like EAGLE or
> Altium or KiCad or the like.
>
> When I was a teenager (mid 80s) I tried making my own PCB with clad board,
> an etch resist pen, that nasty brown acid and the smallest drill bit I
> could get my hands on. This was a single-sided board - I had absolutely no
> way to line up a two-sided design even if through-hole plating would have
> been an option (of course, it wouldn’t have). No solder resist, no silk
> screen.
>
> It was a disaster. Even with a drill press I couldn’t line the DIP holes
> up closely enough to mash a chip in without bending the leads to hell and
> gone.
>
> It was that - and seeing the arrival of surface mount - that convinced me
> at the time that there was no future for hobbyist electronic design and
> creation. I dove with both feet into a career in software engineering.
>
> I had no clue that all I had to do was wait 20 years.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Cable length calibration

[Clint Jay]

Some of the cheap gigabit network cards can and with surprising accuracy
On 29 Jun 2016 22:02, "Gary E. Miller"  wrote:

> Yo Hal!
>
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 12:28:50 -0700
> Hal Murray  wrote:
>
> > bro...@pacific.net said:
> > > At one point they were looking into making a GPS time receiver
> > > where the cable length calibration would be built-in.
> >
> > How would you do that?
>
> TDR.  The GPS already sends a voltage down the cable to power the
> antenna.  Send a sharp down the cable and see when the reflection comes
> back.
>
> Even some of my cheap managed ethernet switches can do that.
>
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
> g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Visiting Greenwich

[Clint Jay]

There is also the RSGB exhibition station at Bletchley which has some nice
radio principles demos
On 5 Jul 2016 08:45, "Attila Kinali"  wrote:

> On Mon, 4 Jul 2016 19:01:45 -0700
> Bob  wrote:
>
> > but also to Bletchley Park (just a short train ride outside London) and
> > Bletchley Park was easily the most memorable.  There are wonderful
> volunteer
> > guides, and many interesting devices that you can get up close to.
> > Bletchley was more like visiting a working lab than a museum.  I think
> every
> > time nut would enjoy Bletchley quite a bit.
> >
> > https://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/ 
>
> I wouldn't call it a "short train ride outside London", but then,
> I'm used to Swiss distances :-)
>
> If you go to the Bletchley Park, also visit The National Museum of
> Computing
> which is at the back of Bletchley Park ( http://www.tnmoc.org ). It's
> a volunteer operated museum with lots of old computers. They also have
> a working Colossus and a WITCH on display. If you talk to one of the
> staff, he might show you the box with all the old crystals they have
> collected and don't know what to do with :-)
>
>
> Attila Kinali
>
> --
> Malek's Law:
> Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.
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Re: [time-nuts] Visiting Greenwich

[Clint Jay]

They also have TIM the speaking clock which has a rack mounted  atomic
standard.
On 5 Jul 2016 21:01, "John Dalziel - crashposition" 
wrote:

> I would also recommend the Worshipful Company of Clockmakers collection at
> the Science Museum. It’s a great collection and they have some of
> Harrison's wooden long case clocks as well as his final chronometer, H5.
>
>
> http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/visitmuseum/plan_your_visit/exhibitions/clockmakers-museum
>
>
> John Dalziel
> computus.org
>
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 18:31:35 -0400
> From: Dave Martindale 
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
> Subject: [time-nuts] Visiting Greenwich
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> I am in London England at the moment, playing tourist with the rest of my
> family. I want one day to be a visit to the National Maritime Museum at
> Greenwich, which includes the Royal Observatory Greenwich. I am
> particularly interested in seeing Harrison's H1 through H4, plus other
> high-precision mechanical timekeepers (pendulum clocks, etc).
>
> I know they are at the NMM - their web site shows some of them. But where
> are they located on the site? The NMM has a large main building down near
> the Thames, while the Royal Observatory and related buildings are on the
> top of a hill further inland in Greenwich Park. Are the chronometers and
> other precision timekeepers on display somewhere in the Royal Observatory,
> or down in the main NMM building? I've spent an hour or two browsing web
> sites without finding this particular bit of information.
>
> I figure there must be list members who have visited the NMM, and know
> where the precision timekeepers are actually displayed.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] Visiting Greenwich

[Clint Jay]

Actually,  you're absolutely right,  the speaking clock is on an upper
gallery display with other timepieces, some of which are amazing.

I've just looked back through my photo gallery and it's the Greenwich time
service I'm thinking of, a large, five rack wide system that's got (from my
obviously flaky memory) a Loran receiver and an atomic standard.

Small pic attached.
On 5 Jul 2016 23:28, "Alan Melia"  wrote:

> Hi Clint I think when I discussed this last a few years ago with the
> speaking clock designer and David Rooney the man responsible for the time
> gallery at Greenwich. The clock is an early quartz unit, probably made at
> the then Post Office Reseach Labs at Dollis Hill in NW London.  The clock
> is quite a beast ! It was found in a skip (Dumpster) having been donated to
> a university in the late 1940s, and was refurbished by a local enthusiast
> for David. He did a good job because I believe he had no access to any
> documents or circuits. I tried to find some information but it would seem
> the archive has been lost (vandals !!) It probably contains strange things
> like neon ring counters :-))
>
> Alan
> G3NYK
>
> - Original Message - From: "Clint Jay" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 9:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Visiting Greenwich
>
>
> They also have TIM the speaking clock which has a rack mounted  atomic
>> standard.
>> On 5 Jul 2016 21:01, "John Dalziel - crashposition" <
>> j...@crashposition.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I would also recommend the Worshipful Company of Clockmakers collection at
>>> the Science Museum. It’s a great collection and they have some of
>>> Harrison's wooden long case clocks as well as his final chronometer, H5.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/visitmuseum/plan_your_visit/exhibitions/clockmakers-museum
>>>
>>>
>>> John Dalziel
>>> computus.org
>>>
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 18:31:35 -0400
>>> From: Dave Martindale 
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> 
>>> Subject: [time-nuts] Visiting Greenwich
>>> Message-ID:
>>> 
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>>
>>> I am in London England at the moment, playing tourist with the rest of my
>>> family. I want one day to be a visit to the National Maritime Museum at
>>> Greenwich, which includes the Royal Observatory Greenwich. I am
>>> particularly interested in seeing Harrison's H1 through H4, plus other
>>> high-precision mechanical timekeepers (pendulum clocks, etc).
>>>
>>> I know they are at the NMM - their web site shows some of them. But where
>>> are they located on the site? The NMM has a large main building down near
>>> the Thames, while the Royal Observatory and related buildings are on the
>>> top of a hill further inland in Greenwich Park. Are the chronometers and
>>> other precision timekeepers on display somewhere in the Royal
>>> Observatory,
>>> or down in the main NMM building? I've spent an hour or two browsing web
>>> sites without finding this particular bit of information.
>>>
>>> I figure there must be list members who have visited the NMM, and know
>>> where the precision timekeepers are actually displayed.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dave
>>> ___
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>>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Good GPSDO on eBay?

[Clint Jay]

No,  my experience with Chinese sellers,  even when you file a "not as
described"  case,  is that eBay will require you to return the item at your
own expense if the seller has stated they will not pay return shipping.

Ebay's attitude was that the seller could just state in their item
description that buyer is to cover return costs and that's it.  Game over.

Which is why you occasionally still see items for peanuts and extortionate
shipping costs, the seller then only has to refund you a couple of dollars
on an item that may have cost you a hundred including shipping.

  I ended up getting a total refund of £3 on a £28 item once I'd returned
it and taken shipping into account. Also,  that was a PayPal refund, not a
seller refund because they just refused shipment so eBay refused to refund
as they had no proof of return.

All the above are the reasons why I now rarely if ever buy anything costing
more than a couple of pounds from China unless I know other people have had
good experience with the item and seller.
On 10 Jul 2016 05:46, "Chris Albertson"  wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 5:51 PM, Richard W. Solomon 
> wrote:
>
> > What a deal, if it arrives DOA, return shipment is on
> > your nickel. I would look elsewhere.
>
>
> That is not true.  If it were DOA and the seller would not take it back
> post paid you could file a "not as described" on the seller and eBay would
> refund the price.  eBay and Paypal offer pretty good buyer protection.
>
> Someone here said the seller uses multiple IDs.  It is more likely that one
> person is making these and offering to multiple people who  then sell them
> on eBay.   This is the way it works in China, a popular design gets made
> and then is sold by many people.   It is all a cottage industry over there.
>Pick any kind of electronic PCB level part, say a stepper motor driver
> and you see the same exact part from 20 different sellers not one seller
> with 20 IDs.(Well that is the general case, this specific one might be
> different, who knows.)
>
> But so what even if the GPSDO is good only to 1xE10 that is still a very
> useful device to own.  Yes some are literally 1,000 times better
>
> You could always build your own.  It is not hard nor is it expensive if you
> have a reasonable goal and don't go for state of the art.
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS for Nixie Clock

[Clint Jay]

I've used the wiznet module,  these days I'd consider the esp8266,
powerful little module that can be had for a couple of dollars complete
with WiFi capabilities and enough GPIO to interface GPS and some sort of
serial nixie interface.
On 12 Jul 2016 20:11, "Vlad"  wrote:

>
> In addition, even MCU has not enough resources to handle TCP/IP, DHCP and
> NTP, it is some solutions available to outsource it to dedicated chips. I
> was using WIZ5100 (assembled as a modules) with great success.
>
> Regards,
> Vlad
>
> On 2016-07-12 12:01, Chris Albertson wrote:
>
>> What kind of micro processor are you using to run the Nixie tube clock?
>> If
>> that processor could run NTP you would not need GPS.   But of course you
>> could always do both.   GPS requires a view of the sky and maybe that is
>> not available in a multi story building unless near a window.  NTP would
>> be
>> available any place there is WiFi. Even without network connection,
>> NTP
>> is a good way to interface the GPS as it knows how to talk to most GPSes
>> made. can handle GPS outages (like when the clock is moved away from a
>> window)
>>
>> That said, you are likely not using a uP big enough to run NTP as a setup
>> like that is about $40 vs. using a bare AVR chip for about $3.  But even
>> with the smaller uP you might think about having the chip keep it's own
>> internal time and using GPS to discipline that internal time, much like
>> the
>> way NTP works.   Basically the uP has a flywheel and GPS regulates it's
>> speed.  Let's you handle holdover gracefully.
>>
>> If using NMEA sentences from GPS, remember that the NMEA standard allows
>> those senates to come out at any time during the second to which they
>> apply.  In other words the sentence itself can be up to almost a second
>> "off".
>>
>> If you are looking for a GPS for use indoors I think you don't care about
>> anything other then receiver sensitivity.  Without that you have nothing,
>> no signal.  It is more important than a few less nanoseconds of
>> uncertainty
>> in the time solution.   So those ublox receivers look good.   I'm looking
>> to buy some for another application, mobile robots, I'll use GPS for gross
>> level navigation and it would be nice if it still worked indoors
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 10:24 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
>>
>> The Jupiter receiver defaults to Motorola output, but can be switched to
>>> Zodiac.  It talks at 9600:8:N:1
>>> Frankly, it is the wrong receiver to use, particularly with an indoor
>>> antenna.  I would go with a modern GPS receiver with standard NMEA output
>>> and a 1PPS signal.   They are MUCH more sensitive and usually work
>>> indoors
>>> and can be had for dirt cheap.   Most have an on-board ceramic patch
>>> antenna.  Ublox receivers seem to work well indoors.
>>>
>>> NAVSPARK makes a tiny little GPS board with 1PPS output.  6 for $36 or
>>> one
>>> free for $10 shipping (no antenna supplied, has a U.FL connector).  It
>>> speaks NMEA at 115,200:8:N:1  or can be setup for 9600 baud.
>>>
>>> The delay between message and 1PPS is receiver dependent.  Usually it is
>>> small enough to not be noticeable.  Some receivers send the message
>>> before
>>> the 1PPS, others after it.   You can compensate for the
>>> differences/delays
>>> in software.
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
> --
> WBW,
>
> V.P.
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Re: [time-nuts] Speaking clock

[Clint Jay]

Tomtom had custom voice capability for sat nav years ago,  seems to have
disappeared now but I can, from personal experience,  confirm how quickly
John Cleese giving 'funny' directions becomes annoying.

On 8 Aug 2016 16:02, "Artek Manuals"  wrote:

> On 8/8/2016 7:28 AM, Morris Odell wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> There was a thread about this a few weeks ago and I mentioned that I was
>> working on one with a "Stephen Hawking" voice - well here's a video:
>>
>> https://youtu.be/lmg0YsHlB3g
>>
>> So far it's not GPS controlled but that will come one day.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Morris
>>
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>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
> Morris
>
> Can I order one with a custom voice ? Say Dolly Parton or Sean Connery?
> After about 15 minutes of the Steven Hawkins  one I would be tempted to
> adjust the tone with an 8lb sledge hammer 8^)
>
> --
> Dave
> manu...@artekmanuals.com
> www.ArtekManuals.com
>
> PS: why the talking GPS "Nagigator" of Bob & Tom fame or the Folks over at
> Ford havent figured out Custom Voice as as after market money generator is
> beyond me
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Re: [time-nuts] Safely getting the electrical length of a connected antenna feedline

[Clint Jay]

I doubt it's worth mentioning that a random SMD footprint cut from a larger
board and some of the currently available eBay SMD adapter boards may have
plated through holes which could short if used to prototype on copper clad
board so it's worth paying a little attention to insulating the
'underside'  of the boards.

On 9 Aug 2016 08:00, "David"  wrote:

> Richard mentioned the SMD to leaded adapters which work well.
>
> Another way which is more suitable for Manhattan or dead bug type
> construction is to glue or solder down just tiny printed circuit board
> which has the SMD footprint and then solder directly to the leads or
> extensions to the pads.  This does not increase the lead length any
> more than necessary and places the ground plane in close proximity for
> best RF performance.  If you are desperate, you can cut an SMD
> footprint out of an existing unused donor board.
>
> On Tue, 9 Aug 2016 03:37:07 + (UTC), you wrote:
>
> >Your comments on layout made me think again of how to implement these
> projects.  How do you use a 14 pin SMD IC?  I could try to connect it with
> flying leads but I'd like something better.  Is there some kind of socket
> for these devices?  Or a generic board to receive such things?
> >
> >Bob
> >
> >On Monday, August 8, 2016 8:02 PM, David  wrote:
> >
> > I actually tested various 74120 dual 4-input NAND drivers which
> >produce the sync output on my B&K function generator to find ones
> >which would provide the fastest and cleanest pulse.  AS (advanced
> >schottky) and FAST (fast advanced schottky TTL) were the best for me.
> >Modern inexpensive discrete logic however can do a much better these
> >days.
> >
> >One interesting thing I learned is that the dual 4-input NAND pinout
> >overlaps the quad 2-input NAND pinout so in a properly designed layout
> >where only 2 gates are used, either part can be used.
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Clint Jay]

I'll throw Designs Park into the mix,  it's a free program from RS
components and I *think* it generates gerber files.

I've used it for a couple of boards and got a grasp of it on a quiet
afternoon.

On 13 Aug 2016 16:05, "William H. Fite"  wrote:

> For me, the ideal solution is an eyeglass-mounted surgical loupe such as
> this: http://www.surgitel.com/loupes/prismpro-line. There are several
> manufacturers. Long working distance, superbly corrected optics, no bino
> microscope or Mantis monstrosity cluttering up the bench. Not cheap but a
> lifetime investment.
>
> On Saturday, August 13, 2016, Adrian Godwin  wrote:
>
> > I use a beautiful Wild M3Z that I got at a good price from a British
> > Aerospace auction. It does have the disadvantage that there's a very
> exact
> > spot to place your eyes, but the image is superb. I typically start at
> the
> > bottom end (6.5 x 10 x 0.5) but often use the other zoom levels (up to
> 40 x
> > 10 x 0.5). It has a Volpi fibre optic ring light but LEDs may be a better
> > solution nowadays.
> >
> > I also have an illuminated magnifying lamp - I like the ones made by Lux.
> >
> > I've considered a video microscope for the times when a large screen
> would
> > be desirable but computer and tablet ones are said to have a bit of lag
> > that make precise movements difficult. Direct video without a computer is
> > probably better.
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Bob Camp >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > You can get a pretty good microscope new for about $1,000. Getting them
> > > used is a hit or
> > > miss process. A lot of this stuff actually works very well when in good
> > > condition with all the
> > > parts (The Mantis is one example). Without all the parts they don’t
> work
> > > or work poorly.
> > >
> > > For most of what you do, there is no need for anything fancy. There is
> a
> > > Mantis in full working
> > > condition at work. It never gets used. Magnifier lights get used a lot.
> > > Low magnification
> > > microscopes with really good halogen / fiber optic ring lights seem to
> be
> > > the most
> > > popular option.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:06 PM, Steve  > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Can anyone compare the stereo microscope to a camera/monitor for use
> > > with SMT? I have a cheap stereo microscope that I would like to replace
> > > with either a much better stereo microscope or a camera/monitor. Is
> > there a
> > > marked advantage(s) of one versus the other?  I have no "floaters" to
> > > contend with.
> > > >
> > > > Steve, K8JQ
> > > >
> > > > On 8/11/2016 4:06 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:
> > > >> Lots of good suggestions have already been made, but for
> > > >> me, a boom style stereo microscope, with a distance between
> > > >> the objective, and the focal point of at least 3 inches works
> > > >> fairly well...
> > > >>
> > > >> One other thing that may force your decision, if you are
> > > >> older, your eyes will likely have lots of "floaters", which
> > > >> are debris that floats around in your eyeballs.  This debris
> > > >> floats in and out of the center of your field of view, and
> > > >> looks like a bunch of translucent worms, or shadows.
> > > >>
> > > >> Your brain, the magnificent organ that it is, tries to compensate
> > > >> for your eye's degradation, and as long as your eyes can move
> > > >> about in your field of view, it effectively removes the floaters
> > > >> from the scenes you are viewing.
> > > >>
> > > >> However, if you use a stereo microscope, your eye position
> > > >> is fixed by the very limited amounts of off axis motion
> > > >> that will allow a through optical channel.  This lack of off
> > > >> axis motion will emphasize your floaters in a great way, and you
> > > >> will see *every* *single* *one*, clearly, as if it were something
> > > >> you really wanted to view.  Some times, the floaters will cover
> > > >> the exact thing you need to see clearly, and you will have to
> > > >> move it off axis by moving it on the microscope stage.
> > > >>
> > > >> The only answer to this problem, is to either have perfect eyes,
> > > >> or to use a microscope where you are looking at a screen, rather
> > > >> than through a pair of oculars.  This way, your eyes can dart
> > > >> around, and inspect what they need to see clearly, and the
> > > >> floaters will be ignored by your brain.
> > > >>
> > > >> As far as I know, there is only one optical microscope built this
> > > >> way, and it is the very expensive Mantis.
> > > >>
> > > >> Because of the great expense of flat screen optical microscopes,
> > > >> most modern SMD viewing equipment is going to the trivially cheap
> > > >> method of using a CCD/CMOS color video camera and an LCD screen.
> > > >>
> > > >> You can do a lot with a cheap USB camera mounted to a boom, a fiber
> > > >> optic light source, or a ring light, and a laptop computer to
> > > >> display the image.
> > > >>
> > > >> -Chuck Harris
> > > >>
> > > >> Bob A

Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO - probably a stupid question.

[Clint Jay]

Interested to know if anyone has done this with a ublox receiver,  I
spotted the option in some of the technical documents and went as far as
finding a stockist for the external DAC I think it'd need.

On 17 Aug 2016 22:02, "Mark Sims"  wrote:

> The Ublox modules (at least some of them) can support an external
> oscillator and have  messages for controlling oscillator parameters and
> disciplining.
>
> 
>
> > This is actually done.  But you need to design the GPS receiver from the
> ground up to use a very high quality oscillator.   The Thunderbolt is an
> example of this.  It has a 10MHz OCXO used as the internal clock.
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Re: [time-nuts] Anybody want a Thunderbolt power supply?

[Clint Jay]

Ah,  these are the LM723 based linear supplies,  Lambda Coutant made
variants as did Farnell,  they're renowned as high reliability,  low noise
supplies.

There are schematics out there for the variants but they're all extremely
similar if not identical.

I think I may even have a couple of original manuals with schematics,  I
may be able to dig them out and scan if they're of interest.

On 31 Aug 2016 13:01, "Jerry O. Stern"  wrote:

> Charles, do you have the schematic for the HTAA-16W-A  ?  The KO4BB mod
> has limited info
>
> Tnx
>
> Jerry
> k1...@arrl.net
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Charles
> Steinmetz
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 4:49 AM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Anybody want a Thunderbolt power supply?
>
> Nick wrote:>
>
> > I’m going to shoot for <= 35 mV P-P. If you need better than that,
> > then it probably turns into a hybrid switching+linear system
>
> It's been years since I played with Tbolts (as opposed to just using
> them), but as I recall there was no possibility whatever of getting the
> best results from any switching supply without at least one stage of linear
> "polishing."  In fact, everything I tried with initial switching regulation
> benefitted from two levels of linear polishing.  It was my conclusion that
> starting with a switching supply of any sort is a bad idea.
>
> I found that for best performance the -12v supply, which feeds the DAC,
> needs to be about 1000 times better than what you are shooting for (i.e.,
> low tens of uVp-p).  That surprised me, because I assumed there must be
> some internal regulation of the DAC supplies -- but it was what my testing
> showed.
>
> Sure, a Tbolt will work with dirtier power than that, but for real
> time-nuts performance I consider an all-linear supply with an
> ultra-low-noise -12v rail to be absolutely necessary.  Since that is not
> very hard to provide, I see no reason to try to make do with less.
>
> One low-cost solution is to wait for a cheap Power One HTAA-16W-A
> triple-output power supply to show up on ebay, and do a very minor
> modification to raise the +12v current limit (so it will handle the first
> moments of a cold start without current limiting) as detailed here:
>
>  Equipment/Power_One/Power_One_HTAA-16W-A_mod_for_
> Thunderbolt_power_supply.pdf>
>
> That approach achieves excellent results -- close to the best you can do
> -- with very little fiddling.  If one wants the very best performance, the
> -12v supply can be adjusted down to -16v or so to provide the headroom to
> add a ULN regulator or a capacitance multiplier.  (The Tbolt only draws a
> few mA from the -12v supply, so the ULN regulator can be a suitable op amp
> with no external pass transistors.)
>
> Last time I bought them, I paid $25 for a lot of three HTAA-16W-A's.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

[Clint Jay]

What's being transmitted?

If it's a repetitive message would it be possible to inhibit transmission
using an external time source, perhaps a PIC or even a Pi inhibiting the
"PTT", leaving the windows box in control of what's transmitted or do the
Windows boxes have to communicate with each other via some back channel?

On 4 Oct 2016 08:30, "Chris Albertson"  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Larry Hower  wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > 1. We are using desktops and laptops in separate locations running XP or
> > Win 10.
> >
>
> Assuming you have decent GPS receivers with an un-obstructed view of the
> sky with 1 pulse per second output and you have let the GPS run long enough
> to track enough satellites  then...  The pulse typically has a standard
> deviation on the order of some tens of nanoseconds.   So that is not your
> problem.  It is software., well mostly.  Also computers that manage power
> like notebooks are not going to give good timing performance no matter what
> you try.
>
> MS Windows is not the best choice for running NTP.   You can do it.  and
> many people have gotten results better then 1 millisecond.  But
> If you are willing to give up the use of MS Windows.  Then tens of
> microseconds is not hard.
>
> Little $35 credit card sized computers (Raspberry Pi) running Linux and NTP
> with a GPS input are easy to get an order of magnitude better than your
> requirement.
>
> So are you stuck with windows.  f so it can work with some rather complex
> setup.   If you can select another OS then you get out of the box
> sub-millisecond performance with little effort
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Prologix USB-GPIB Controller

[Clint Jay]

I think those voltage reference ICs have been done to death over on EEVBlog
and the general consensus is that they work very well, the only counterfeit
part is the 'calibration' sheet that comes with them, they seem to be done
on a photocopier.

They also appear to exceed the accuracy specifications of the part suffix,
my own experience of the three I own is very positive and they've been
checked by a friend who has access to some rather nice HP bench meters.

I would however be very wary of buying surplus OCXOs from eBay, some appear
to have been remove from boards by percussive means (BFO guage hammer) if
some of the pictures are representative of the devices for sale.

On 10 October 2016 at 09:35, Charles Steinmetz 
wrote:

> Poul-Henning wrote:
>
> And for voltage references, "pre-owned" is likely to mean "better".
>>
>
> Perhaps, but third-world recyclers are not known for gentle treatment
> during the parts removal process.  There have been lots of videos and
> descriptions on the web that are truly eye-opening.  The process generally
> involves an intense heat source (everything from gas stove burners to
> campfires) over which children hold PC boards, and when the solder is good
> and flowing (maybe hundreds of degrees above its melting point) they give
> the boards a mighty whack on the edge of a table so the parts come flying
> off.
>
> They are NOT using temperature-controlled vacuum desoldering stations.
>
> I'm not particularly interested in a voltage reference IC that has been
> overheated for a prolonged period, then subjected while hot to a 50G whack.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Atomic Watch

[Clint Jay]

I am peeking in as a mere amateur and that article hurts my brain, I cannot
imagine how hard some folk here must be battering their heads against their
desks.

Oh, and it's not the first either, this one was a year prior...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/01/hoptroff_shows_first_atomic_watch_movement/

http://www.hoptroff.com/collections/atomic-timepieces

On 18 October 2016 at 12:00, Tim Shoppa  wrote:

> If I saw a chess playing machine that had a bunch of gears and levers, AND
> A LITTLE HUMAN INSIDE, and the proprietor was bragging about how well the
> human had been trained relative to the military, I would spend all my time
> wondering how much of the work the human was doing. Even if the combination
> played simply awful chess.
>
> Tim N3QE
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 9:45 PM, Jim Palfreyman 
> wrote:
>
> > Well I think there's a mistake or two here...
> >
> > https://www.inverse.com/article/20497-john-patterson-atomic-ce
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Re: [time-nuts] So what’s inside that Cs Beam Tube anyway?

[Clint Jay]

There's a sectioned Cs tube at the science museum in London,  sadly I can't
see the pics you link to but I'd be interested to see if they're the same
as that exhibit (I think I have a picture somewhere)

On 31 Oct 2016 20:54, "Skip Withrow"  wrote:

> Hello Time-Nuts,
>
>
>
> I recently acquired a stock of dead cesium beam tubes, and my curiosity got
> the best of me, so I have cut one open.  After watching lots of YouTube
> video of burning and exploding cesium I was a little leery at first. The
> first step was to make a very small hole just to let a small amount of air
> in, no flames or heat so I let it sit for a while for any reactions with
> air to take their course.  Next I proceeded to cut off the ends, and after
> that the bottom of the unit, finally I trimmed the top off as far as I
> could.  Pictures are linked below for your enjoyment.  I have attached two
> of the before and after at low resolution.
>
>
>
> 1. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube1.jpg
>
>
>
> This is the before picture of a tube (not the actual one opened).  It is HP
> part number 05061-6077.  The band around the center of the tube is a mu
> metal shield that is removed by removing the screws along the seam.
> Unfortunately
> 11 of the 14 tubes that I received had the cables cut as shown (ouch!).
>
>
>
> 2. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube2.jpg
>
>
>
> This is a shot of the deconstructed tube.  The cesium oven is on the left,
> the microwave cavity is in the center (under a metal cover), and the
> detector is on the right.
>
>
>
> 3. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube3.jpg
>
>
>
> This is the oven end of the tube.  The oven (with the cesium) is the copper
> vessel.  The ion trap assembly is at the top (with magnet).  The first beam
> magnet is between the oven and the microwave cavity.  One thing that I can
> say is that HP brought the art of spot welding to a new level.  Note the
> stainless steel strips welded over the screw heads (and lots of other
> things).
>
>
>
> 4. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube4.jpg
>
>
>
> This is the detector end of the tube.  I believe the hot wire ionizer is
> the broken metal strip.  The electron multiplier/detector is in the metal
> box above it.  The second beam magnet sits between the microwave cavity and
> the electronics at this end of the tube.  I don’t think I broke the
> filament, this was probably the failure mode of this tube.  Also note that
> all the wiring insulation is ceramic tubing, since insulation that out
> gasses in vacuum is a no-no.
>
>
>
> 5. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube5.jpg
>
>
>
> This is the bottom view of the tube for completeness.  I have not yet
> removed the cover that is over the microwave cavity (and has the C-field
> coil around it).
>
>
>
> 6. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube6.jpg
>
>
>
> This is the top of the tube with the potting compound removed.  I was
> surprised to find a couple of embedded resistors.  I guess the good news is
> that it would be easy enough to remove the potting and solder on new wires
> if deemed useful.
>
>
>
> 7. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube7.jpg
>
>
>
> This is just a close-up of the broken hot wire ionizer (and all the spot
> welds).
>
>
>
> 8. http://www.rdrelectronics.com/skip/CS-tube/cstube8.jpg
>
>
>
> This is a close-up of the ion trap where the +3500V connects.  I’m not a
> physics expert, but didn’t think about a magnet being involved.  I don’t
> think any of the drawings that I have seen have ever mentioned it.
>
>
>
> So, enjoy.  I will most likely be throwing the rest of the tubes up on ebay
> at some point.  If there is strong interest in having them cut open first
> please let me know.  I intend to cut up some wood to make an appropriate
> stand and add this one to my tube collection.
>
>
>
> Sorry for the long post, but I hope you found it informative.
>
> Regards,
>
> Skip Withrow
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Cs tube pics

[Clint Jay]

While I've no need for such accuracy in my little home workshop,  I
*really* would like a Cs standard,  just because.

The Rb and GPSDO are more than adequate for my needs but I can understand
(and, for now, manage to resist) the addiction to accuracy and find it
fascinating that such results can be achieved.

On 1 Nov 2016 10:39, "Attila Kinali"  wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 22:18:07 -0700
> "Tom Van Baak"  wrote:
>
> > That's why everyone should own a cesium standard after they grow tired
> of playing with GPSDO.
>
> I really would like to do that. But they are a tad bit expensive.
> Especially on this side of the big pond. If anyone is willing
> to part with a Cs standard and want to have it a good home, feel
> free to contact me :-)
>
> Attila Kinali
>
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
>  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] Man with too many clocks.

[Clint Jay]

I own a 5680b and while it only outputs a PPS signal there is a very stable
30MHz signal available inside the unit IIRC.

I can dig mine out and find the signal if that's of use?

I believe they can be modded for 10MHz output on the 15p D type  but I've
just not managed to find time to get around to that yet.

On 5 Nov 2016 13:33, "EB4APL"  wrote:

I agree that FE-5680 is a whole family of products with very different
features and these can not deducted from the labels.

In my case I own a FE-5680A which outputs 1 PPS and a fixed (but slightly
tunable) 10 MHz and needs 2 power supply voltages, +5 V and + 15 V.

I am sending directly to you the information of the breakout board that I
use and it includes the pinout of this unit.  A caution here, some of the
FE-5680 variations have different pinouts.

Regards,

Ignacio EB4APL



El 05/11/2016 a las 2:01, Peter Reilley escribió:

> It is a FE-5680B.   It is my understanding that these were made in many
> variations
> of features but that what features were present or absent could not be
> known
> from the model numbers of other external identifying information. This one
> has the 1 PPS apparently.
>
> Pete.
>
>
>
> On 11/4/2016 1:07 PM, EB4APL wrote:
>
>> A bit OT, but regarding your Rb, some units needs to be powered thru 2
>> pins, one is used only for the 10 MHz output buffer, if remember it
>> correctly. Which is your model number?
>>
>> Ignacio EB4APL
>>
>>
>> El 04/11/2016 a las 16:35, Peter Reilley escribió:
>>
>>> I gave up on trying to use the GPS 1 PPS signal to calibrate the 10 MHz
>>> OCXO's that
>>> I have.   The reason that others have pointed out is that the
>>> uncorrected 1 PPS
>>> signal from the GPS is has just a little too much a jitter to use it for
>>> calibration
>>> with your eye using a scope.   If it were sawtooth corrected then it
>>> would be better
>>> but you really need a GPS disciplined oscillator.
>>>
>>> Not to be outdone, I brought out a rubidium oscillator that I had put
>>> away because
>>> it did not appear to work properly.   It only put out a 1 PPS signal and
>>> nothing else.
>>> I compared that with the GPS PPS and could get a good comparison on the
>>> scope.
>>> The rubidium drifted about 40 nS over 12 hours.   So it seemed to be
>>> good.
>>>
>>> With that I could adjust the OCXO's in my 5370's.   The spec for the HP
>>> 5370B with
>>> a HP 10811 OCXO is better than 1 X 10^-10 RMS for 1 sec average. That
>>> is, it should
>>> take more than 1,000 seconds for one 10 MHz wave to shift by 360
>>> degrees.   That
>>> is very hard to do using the screw adjustment in the OCXO. Even the
>>> slightest
>>> movement possible will cause a frequency change greater that is
>>> spec'ed.   How
>>> do cal labs do it?
>>>
>>> My HP 5370A has a 10544 OCXO which is spec'ed for short term stability of
>>> better than 1 X 10^11 for 1 second.   Even better than the 5370B! The
>>> adjustment
>>> screw is much coarser and it is not possible to get any better than a
>>> few seconds for
>>> one cycle phase shift of the 10 MHz OCXO against the standard. It seems
>>> that I can't
>>> get even close to the spec.
>>>
>>> These have been running for a few days.   It that enough?
>>>
>>> Pete.
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---
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>> busca de virus.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] I love the smell of tantalum in the morning

[Clint Jay]

Heating one end and adding a little solder to the joint will allow you to
lift the cap,  the leads are folded over tabs so they'll bend nicely and
allow the cap to lift,  once you've got one end lifted,  heat the other and
it will come away easily.

Clean up the pads with solder wick then you're good to replace the part.

While I'd like an excuse (and the funds)  to buy a pair of tweezers for
SMD,  I'd find it hard to use that job as an excuse.

On 5 Nov 2016 19:12, "Tom Van Baak"  wrote:

> See C13 in the attached photo. I need to replace some blown caps on a few
> boards [1]. In one instance the cap got so hot it melted itself off the
> board. Quiet convenient, actually -- it acts like its own fuse -- but I
> don't think the 5071 designers had that clever feature in mind.
>
> Having not done SMT before, how should I do it with minimal risk to the
> very precious PCB. Or, what equipment should I use this as a good excuse to
> buy?
>
> Thanks,
> /tvb
>
> [0] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078788/quotes
> [1] http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp5071a/A1-mother.htm
>
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Re: [time-nuts] I love the smell of tantalum in the morning

[Clint Jay]

Definitely, for a proven bad or dirt cheap leaded part when the board is
valuable cut the legs. gives you an added advantage when removing the part
as well as you can apply heat to both sides of the leg if it's through
hole.

On 5 November 2016 at 21:56, Mark Sims  wrote:

> Tom's method is what I use when replacing commodity parts that I don't
> care about salvaging.  Much less chance of damaging anything.   Hack the
> part apart,  cut the leads on gull wing packages, etc.  Don't waste your
> time with tweezers,  lifting one end, etc.   I have a very nice set of hot
> tweezers and almost never use them.
>
> And for DIP packages cut the package free from the leads first...  even
> though I have a $6000+ vacuum desoldering station,  trying to get all the
> leads unsoldered cleanly and prying out the chip always risks tearing out a
> feed through... particularly on multi-layer boards with out thermal
> isolation vias on power/ground connections.
>
> -
>
> >  I usually nibble away at the center of the part until it is two separate
> pieces. Then unsolder each piece. Clean the pads off with wick then install
> the new part.
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Re: [time-nuts] Nutty time-nuttery with WWVB

[Clint Jay]

I should also have added,  it may be better to work out a repeater scheme
where an externally mounted antenna re-radiates the received signal inside
your home.

On 10 Nov 2016 12:21, "Peter Reilley"  wrote:

> I have a few of those "atomic" clocks that receive WWVB to set the time.
> However since I live on the east coast they may only pick up the signal
> once or twice per year.
>
> Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
> be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
> The signal at 60 KHz might be able to be produced directly by some
> sound cards.   With that and a ferrite rod antenna I might get
> reliable time elsewhere in my house outside of my lab.
>
> Has anyone tried this?
>
> Pete.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Nutty time-nuttery with WWVB

[Clint Jay]

Yes,  there are projects that will generate the relevant signals but you
have to be absolutely certain  that the signal will not 'leak'  and affect
clocks you don't own.

Which may not be as easy as it sounds,  it's amazing just how far a couple
of milli watts of RF can travel.

On 10 Nov 2016 12:21, "Peter Reilley"  wrote:

> I have a few of those "atomic" clocks that receive WWVB to set the time.
> However since I live on the east coast they may only pick up the signal
> once or twice per year.
>
> Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
> be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
> The signal at 60 KHz might be able to be produced directly by some
> sound cards.   With that and a ferrite rod antenna I might get
> reliable time elsewhere in my house outside of my lab.
>
> Has anyone tried this?
>
> Pete.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Nutty time-nuttery with WWVB

[Clint Jay]

Found it.

There was an article by Andy Flind in a UK electronics magazine,  EPE
December 2001 which detailed an MSF repeater to overcome a problem with
60KHz time signal reception.

Shouldnt be bothered by the signal format as I remember it being a very
simple design.

As others have pointed out,  even re radiating the original signal may
cause problems so take care.

On 10 Nov 2016 13:15, "Attila Kinali"  wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 07:18:42 -0500
> Peter Reilley  wrote:
>
> > Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
> > be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
> > The signal at 60 KHz might be able to be produced directly by some
> > sound cards.   With that and a ferrite rod antenna I might get
> > reliable time elsewhere in my house outside of my lab.
>
> There are many of those. Just google for WWVB simulator.
> Interestingly, there seem more DCF77 simulators out there than
> WWVB ones.
>
> As Clint wrote, be carefull not to emit too much. Transmit only
> as much power that your clocks can just barely receive it.
> Which probably means not to connect any wire at all.
>
> 60kHz is low enough that it will pass through all but steel reinforced
> concrete like through air and thus you will probably jam all sourounding
> houses/clocks as well.
>
> The same is also true for repeaters, btw.
>
> Attila Kinali
>
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
>  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] Nutty time-nuttery with WWVB

[Clint Jay]

Don't forget power line networking equipment but just because one
interference source is tolerated or in order by the authorities doesn't
mean it's ok to create another.

Those switchers and even the hardware they power (I'm thinking of satellite
receivers which spew all sorts of hash over HF bands)  are terrible sources
of unmonitored QRM.

On 10 Nov 2016 17:46, "Alex Pummer"  wrote:

> And how about that many, many "radiator" which are moving up and down with
> their carriers and don't give a damn about FCC Part 15 and radiating
> radiating day and night with substantial power, I meant that FFC approved
> and not approved switching mode power supplies, of which every household
> has a hand full of it?
>
> 73
> KJ6UHN
> Alex
>
> On 11/10/2016 9:22 AM, William H. Fite wrote:
>
>> I heartily second Charles' admonition regarding FCC PART 15 unlicensed
>> transmissions. Part 15 explicitly states that an unlicensed operator may
>> not cause interference with any licensed transmission. Because of the
>> specific purpose of WWV/WWVB transmissions, any discernible leakage
>> detectable by any other user is prima facie evidence of unlawful
>> transmission and subject to a heavy fine. I assure you that any licensed
>> Part 97 user who detects your emissions over the top of WWVB is quite
>> likely to rat you out to Uncle Charlie. And should, may I say, because you
>> will be interfering with a public service. "I am just syncing my clocks"
>> is
>> not going to impress the guys who appear in your driveway in a white van
>> with RDF antennas on the roof.
>>
>> Sobe very damned sure that you are not radiating a discernible signal
>> outside of the immediate vicinity of your clocks.
>>
>> Bill
>> KJ4SLP
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, November 10, 2016, Charles Steinmetz 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Peter wrote:
>>>
>>> Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
>>>
 be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
   *   *   *
 Has anyone tried this?

 Some on the list have, and I'm sure they will provide the details.
>>>
>>> Others have mentioned the potential problems with interference to other
>>> WWVB users.  For starters, make sure you study and understand Part 15 of
>>> the FCC rules before you put it on the air, or you could face a nasty
>>> enforcement action.  (Even if you are Part 15-compliant, you may still
>>> screw up other users' reception and get a visit from the FCC when they
>>> complain.  I operate several very sensitive 60kHz receivers -- if you
>>> live
>>> in my neighborhood, I'm almost certain to be unhappy about anything you
>>> deploy.)
>>>
>>> Note that the problem with most "atomic" clocks that I've seen is
>>> actually
>>> not insufficient signal (in the wee hours of the morning, when they try
>>> to
>>> synch).  It is either excessive QRM, or orienting the clock so its
>>> antenna
>>> has a null toward Fort Collins.  Make sure the antenna has a major lobe
>>> toward Fort Collins (this may require relocating the entire clock or
>>> bringing the antenna out so you can orient it independently), and that it
>>> is well clear of the AC mains distribution wiring in your house and any
>>> other sources of QRM (wall warts, CFL lamps, LED lamps, etc. (this may
>>> also
>>> require relocating the clock).
>>>
>>> The typical clock using a loopstick antenna has lobes to the front and
>>> rear, and nulls to the sides.  Thus, mounting the clock on the western
>>> exterior wall (for users on the east coast) is usually best.  Putting it
>>> directly in front of a west-facing window may help.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Nutty time-nuttery with WWVB

[Clint Jay]

I thought the same at first, but then I thought a little more, it may not
be time nut standards of accuracy but...

It's possible to buy ESP8266 modules for a couple of pounds, they will run
NTP, if you want to go up market then a Pi Zero.

Hooked up to a cheap DS1307 module or one of the higher stability ones,
then your choice of display, cheap SPI TFT, retro VFD or Nixies, you could
build an NTP synchronised clock for under £10.

Rolling it yourself like that would allow you to negate the security risks
associated with IoT as you'd have control of the security aspects.

On 10 November 2016 at 22:59, Ruslan Nabioullin 
wrote:

> On 11/10/2016 05:46 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
>
>> To be honest, this is very impractical and backward-thinking.
>>> I would suggest instead upgrading to the Internet-of-things paradigm,
>>> replacing
>>> these time-of-day displays with full computers running NTP and connected
>>> to your LAN (Android smartwatches; repurposed old smartphones, tablets,
>>> laptops, etc.; and smartclocks
>>>
>>
>> Hi Ruslan,
>>
>> Please tell me this comment is humor or maybe just trolling.
>> Or are you actually serious?
>>
>
> I am absolutely serious.
>
> -Ruslan
>
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[time-nuts] Time, NTD, IoT and bug fixes

[Clint Jay]

Given recent discussions of IoT, NTP and wall clocks, this may be of
interest

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/23/ntp_patch_time_rolls_around_again/

And the vulnerabilities:

http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/633847

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Re: [time-nuts] Vintage Quartz Crystal Manufacturing

[Clint Jay]

Might be worth popping over to the GQRP mailing list and asking,  there are
a few enthusiasts there but wireless set no.  7 makes it sound like they
were from a military radio.

On 26 Nov 2016 13:00, "Adrian Godwin"  wrote:

> I bought some old crystals on ebay :
>
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/15114483
>
> Is anyone familiar with this style ? I don't think the quartz is visible in
> the glass section : I imagine that's just an insulator. I think the quartz
> is under a brass disc, with a sping to hold the disc down visible through
> the glass.
>
> Does anyone know what the reference marked on them "w'less sets No 7"
> refers to ?
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 6:50 AM, Mark Sims  wrote:
>
> > Can you say "Mr Rogers' Neighborhood?"   I knew you could...
> >
> > He (along with creepy Mr McFeelie) always ran segments on how some item
> > was made.   Geared towards pre-schoolers, but always worth watching.
> >
> > -
> >
> > Compare the Science channel's new "How Do They Do It" to the older "How
> > It's Made"
> > shows.
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Re: [time-nuts] RPi/ beagle bone-like computer without video

[Clint Jay]

Raspberry Pi compute module? Maybe even a Pi Zero?

On 30 Nov 2016 21:47, "Adrian Godwin"  wrote:

> The tiny g3 routers are worth looking at. They have WiFi, Ethernet and USB,
> cost very little and will usually run wrt54g Linux. Can be rather short on
> memory though.
>
> On 30 Nov 2016 8:43 p.m., "jimlux"  wrote:
>
> > I'm looking for a small linux single board - similar to RPi or Beaglebone
> > Black, but don't need the HDMI, or video stuff.
> > Preferably without weird connectors, and available for wide temperature
> > ranges (it's for a data logger/collector in the field)
> >
> > What's out there?
> >
> > There's BBB in industrial flavor (-40 to +85C ) for $60-70
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Re: [time-nuts] Totally unrelated, but..

[Clint Jay]

I was looking for a low noise regulator to power a log amp/detector earlier
this year and was rather surprised to find the 78xx regulators were
considerably better than many of the "low noise" devices.

But!!

I've also had odd experiences with some brands of 78xx devices (and way
before the 'net was anything more than SLIP dial up to a shell so I doubt
they were Chinese fakes) ,  one was bad enough that it gave some very
random voltage measurements on a digital meter,  turned out of the was
creating all sorts of RF hash in the low VHF range up to and possible
beyond the FM broadcast band.

On 7 Dec 2016 20:10, "Joe Leikhim"  wrote:

> Could the low noise parts actually be counterfeit, relabeled as such?
>
> Is the circuit the regulator feeds sensitive to a narrow band of voltage
> that the "good regulator" is outside of?
>
> Try replacing the regulator with a battery supply and resistor divider to
> attain the working voltage. Move the voltage around. A good potentiometer
> and stiff filter capacitors are recommended so as not to introduce "pot
> noise".
>
> Is something corrupting your test procedure?  I had a circuit that
> misbehaved due to floating logic pins reacting to static electricity on the
> work bench. Another time a diode was photosensitive.
>
>
>
> --
> Joe Leikhim
>
>
> Leikhim and Associates
>
> Communications Consultants
>
> Oviedo, Florida
>
> jleik...@leikhim.com
>
> 407-982-0446
>
> WWW.LEIKHIM.COM
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Totally unrelated, but..

[Clint Jay]

I've no doubt there are many excellent low noise regulators out there that
are orders of magnitude better than the 78xx series,  but there are also
many that claim low noise as a headline feature and are actually worse
 when you dig into the specification.

On 7 Dec 2016 23:42, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 
wrote:

> On 12/7/2016 12:16 PM, Clint Jay wrote:
>
>> I was looking for a low noise regulator to power a log amp/detector
>> earlier
>> this year and was rather surprised to find the 78xx regulators were
>> considerably better than many of the "low noise" devices.
>>
>>
> Are you kidding me?  Check out the Linear Technology LT3042 and
> LT3045 with 2 (yes, TWO) NANOVOLTS/root-Hz spot noise.  Orders of
> magnitude better than the 78XX introduced 45 years ago.
>
> Rick N6RK
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Re: [time-nuts] Simple open source microcontroller solution to tune DDS needed

[Clint Jay]

I think maybe you might have meant the AD9835 ?

Anyway, there are plenty of code examples out there, do you have a
processor in mind or are you free to use whatever is suggested?



On 13 Dec 2017 20:03, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 
wrote:

> I need a very simple controller to tune a DDS with up/down
> switches (imagine setting the time on a clock).  A DDS
> chip, such as an AD9836 would go on a PC board and a couple
> of pushbuttons would tell the controller to tune up or
> down.
>
> Before reinventing this wheel, I thought I would see if
> anyone knows of a similar solution that can be leveraged.
> What I would like is both hardware and software, where
> the software could be edited to accommodate the up/down
> buttons.  A last resort would be to write software from
> scratch.  My software skills are extremely limited.
> Cutting and pasting code might work for me.
>
> I need to be able to embed this onto an existing PC board.
> I can't use a preexisting "daughter" card, other than
> to copy the design of the card.
>
> Rick Karlquist
> N6RK
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Simple open source microcontroller solution to tune DDS needed

[Clint Jay]

Seconded on the Andy Talbot suggestion, iirc he has almost exactly what you
need

On 14 Dec 2017 17:19, "Dave B via time-nuts"  wrote:

> Take a look at Andy Talbot's page at...
>
> http://www.g4jnt.com/Synthesizers.htm
>
> Lots of good options there for that sort of thing.
>
> 73.
>
> Dave G0WBX.
>
>
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[time-nuts] Microsemi up for sale?

[Clint Jay]

Perhaps of interest to the list

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/25/microsemi/

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Re: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.

[Clint Jay]

Sounds like a drop shipping operation, they've found a supplier in China
who is willing to send goods either in plain wrapping without any supplier
name or the name of the agent who's selling it. It can be useful to Google
anything that looks like a part number on the packaging, you'll often find
the main wholesaler or even the manufacturer.

On 13 Feb 2018 15:48, "John Green"  wrote:

> Bob wrote:  Sitting here casually reading the data sheets for some of the
> modern Trimble
> survey receivers - they have gone to 7.2V (just below your 7.5V trigger
> point)
> as an antenna supply voltage.
>
> Who knows what that might imply relative to this antenna.
>
> After getting my refund, I sent the seller a message saying that I would
> buy another if he could assure me it would work at 12 volts. He replied
> that he needed to get his hands on a couple and do some testing first. The
> antenna that I received seems to be different to the one pictured in the
> eBay listing. At least the labels are different. I get the feeling he is
> kind of a third party dealing with someone in China who is wholesaling
> antennas made by someone else. Who really knows what spec. these are made
> to, or by who. In my former place of employment, we made an SMB terminator.
> Basically, a 75 ohm resistor soldered across the pins of an SMB connector,
> then molded in black plastic. We bought the connectors from a Chinese
> supplier who supplied them in individual plastic bags. We had to cut the
> parts out of the bags before processing, which added a labor step. We tried
> to get the supplier to sell them to us packaged in bulk, but they refused.
> We decided that they were actually buying them from someone else and just
> doing a passthru. The connectors themselves would change from time to time,
> which caused problems in molding, and sometimes caused the electrical
> performance to degrade. Getting parts to reliably meet a specification from
> China can be a problem. I can't even imagine the issues that could arise
> when you try to source an assembly, or completed product.
>
>  source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
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> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.

[Clint Jay]

Agreed but stock numbers on boxes and packets  are usually Arabic numerals
or a barcode. It's also possible the seller used a stock image which can be
copied and pasted into Google web search to track down the maker or at
least a distributor who has data.

On 13 Feb 2018 16:18, "Bob kb8tq"  wrote:

> Hi
>
> That can be a bit harder if the labels are all in Chinese. Maybe posting
> pictures of the label? That way those (not I) who can read Chinese might
> spot something that allows a search to proceed.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Feb 13, 2018, at 11:06 AM, Clint Jay  wrote:
> >
> > Sounds like a drop shipping operation, they've found a supplier in China
> > who is willing to send goods either in plain wrapping without any
> supplier
> > name or the name of the agent who's selling it. It can be useful to
> Google
> > anything that looks like a part number on the packaging, you'll often
> find
> > the main wholesaler or even the manufacturer.
> >
> > On 13 Feb 2018 15:48, "John Green"  wrote:
> >
> >> Bob wrote:  Sitting here casually reading the data sheets for some of
> the
> >> modern Trimble
> >> survey receivers - they have gone to 7.2V (just below your 7.5V trigger
> >> point)
> >> as an antenna supply voltage.
> >>
> >> Who knows what that might imply relative to this antenna.
> >>
> >> After getting my refund, I sent the seller a message saying that I would
> >> buy another if he could assure me it would work at 12 volts. He replied
> >> that he needed to get his hands on a couple and do some testing first.
> The
> >> antenna that I received seems to be different to the one pictured in the
> >> eBay listing. At least the labels are different. I get the feeling he is
> >> kind of a third party dealing with someone in China who is wholesaling
> >> antennas made by someone else. Who really knows what spec. these are
> made
> >> to, or by who. In my former place of employment, we made an SMB
> terminator.
> >> Basically, a 75 ohm resistor soldered across the pins of an SMB
> connector,
> >> then molded in black plastic. We bought the connectors from a Chinese
> >> supplier who supplied them in individual plastic bags. We had to cut the
> >> parts out of the bags before processing, which added a labor step. We
> tried
> >> to get the supplier to sell them to us packaged in bulk, but they
> refused.
> >> We decided that they were actually buying them from someone else and
> just
> >> doing a passthru. The connectors themselves would change from time to
> time,
> >> which caused problems in molding, and sometimes caused the electrical
> >> performance to degrade. Getting parts to reliably meet a specification
> from
> >> China can be a problem. I can't even imagine the issues that could arise
> >> when you try to source an assembly, or completed product.
> >>
> >> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
> >> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
> >> Virus-free.
> >> www.avast.com
> >> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
> >> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
> >> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.

[Clint Jay]

Oh, and Google has a handy translation tool which does a reasonable job of
translating Chinese text from a jpg image so that's also worth a try.

On 13 Feb 2018 16:18, "Bob kb8tq"  wrote:

> Hi
>
> That can be a bit harder if the labels are all in Chinese. Maybe posting
> pictures of the label? That way those (not I) who can read Chinese might
> spot something that allows a search to proceed.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Feb 13, 2018, at 11:06 AM, Clint Jay  wrote:
> >
> > Sounds like a drop shipping operation, they've found a supplier in China
> > who is willing to send goods either in plain wrapping without any
> supplier
> > name or the name of the agent who's selling it. It can be useful to
> Google
> > anything that looks like a part number on the packaging, you'll often
> find
> > the main wholesaler or even the manufacturer.
> >
> > On 13 Feb 2018 15:48, "John Green"  wrote:
> >
> >> Bob wrote:  Sitting here casually reading the data sheets for some of
> the
> >> modern Trimble
> >> survey receivers - they have gone to 7.2V (just below your 7.5V trigger
> >> point)
> >> as an antenna supply voltage.
> >>
> >> Who knows what that might imply relative to this antenna.
> >>
> >> After getting my refund, I sent the seller a message saying that I would
> >> buy another if he could assure me it would work at 12 volts. He replied
> >> that he needed to get his hands on a couple and do some testing first.
> The
> >> antenna that I received seems to be different to the one pictured in the
> >> eBay listing. At least the labels are different. I get the feeling he is
> >> kind of a third party dealing with someone in China who is wholesaling
> >> antennas made by someone else. Who really knows what spec. these are
> made
> >> to, or by who. In my former place of employment, we made an SMB
> terminator.
> >> Basically, a 75 ohm resistor soldered across the pins of an SMB
> connector,
> >> then molded in black plastic. We bought the connectors from a Chinese
> >> supplier who supplied them in individual plastic bags. We had to cut the
> >> parts out of the bags before processing, which added a labor step. We
> tried
> >> to get the supplier to sell them to us packaged in bulk, but they
> refused.
> >> We decided that they were actually buying them from someone else and
> just
> >> doing a passthru. The connectors themselves would change from time to
> time,
> >> which caused problems in molding, and sometimes caused the electrical
> >> performance to degrade. Getting parts to reliably meet a specification
> from
> >> China can be a problem. I can't even imagine the issues that could arise
> >> when you try to source an assembly, or completed product.
> >>
> >> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
> >> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
> >> Virus-free.
> >> www.avast.com
> >> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
> >> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
> >> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.

[Clint Jay]

Then Africa.

On 22 Feb 2018 22:42, "Bob kb8tq"  wrote:

> India
>
> > On Feb 22, 2018, at 5:37 PM, Van Horn, David  backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Some  of you are to young to remember when Javanese products were
> considered junk same storyBert Kehren"
> >
> > I've lived through Japan, Taiwan, and now China.  Who's next?  😊
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Curious, how many t-nuts have 5065A

[Clint Jay]

It looks rough, there's a cesium standard for sale in the UK, time nuts
member perhaps, that's sat at a quarter of the price, I know which I'd buy.

On 24 Feb 2018 10:46, "George Atkinson via time-nuts" 
wrote:

> There is one on UK ebay at the moment but its not being given away. From
> the one partial photograph it looks a bit rough.
>
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-5065A-Rubidium-Frequency-
> Standard/183057846558?
>
> Robert G8RPI.
>
> >
> > On 24 February 2018 at 10:02 John Miles  wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > Well, if anybody else is “giving away” 5065’s I’d certainly be
> willing to
> > > “accept”
> > > one :)
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > >
> > Be careful what you wish for. :) The unit Pete is talking about is a
> 1969-era model, in nice overall shape but with the usual bad capacitors on
> the oven controller board. The lamp oven winding should be about 50 ohms
> cold, but is closer to a dead short. It will take a LOT of work to restore
> to working condition.
> >
> > The failed controller ran long enough to smoke a 1.5-ohm 1W
> resistor, 1N400-something diode, and eventually the 1A line fuse (
> http://www.ke5fx.com/5065A_A11_sm.jpg ). Needless to say the lamp PCB
> looks like something out of Fukushima. It'll need to be rebuilt from
> scratch after rewinding the heater.
> >
> > Seriously -- anyone with a 5065A who hasn't checked/replaced the
> caps on A11, don't let this happen to you. They aren't making any more of
> these puppies. If the caps on that board are original, don't bother to
> check them, just replace them, as Luciano suggests at
> http://www.timeok.it/hp5065a-corner-3/. No need for exotic parts, just
> put in whatever you have that is somewhere close to the original values.
> >
> > Not a bad idea to verify the ESR of the new parts you're installing
> as well.
> >
> > -- john, KE5FX
> > Miles Design LLC
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] TymServe TS2100 dead power supply

[Clint Jay]

If it's not restarted after a power down and there's no 'ticking' sound
from it then it's likely to be a problem with the bootstrap supply,
switchers will run for years once they're running but while they're running
the small capacitor (of the order of 47uF) and the resistor that feeds it
(often 220K-470K but can be outside that range) will dry up or go high in
value and as soon as you power it down and try to restart, it fails because
that little circuit doesn't provide the supply needed to kick the chip into
life.

First order of business, check the rails on the secondary for shorts
(tantalums have been mentioned by someone else) and then, after making sure
the main reservoir capacitor is discharged, check and high value resistors
and low voltage/value capacitors on the primary.

The data sheet for SMPSU control chips like the UC3844 usually have a
reference circuit which is often copied by SMPSU manufacturers with only
minor component changes.

On 6 March 2018 at 04:36, Mark Sims  wrote:

> First check for power / ground shorts on the power supply outputs with an
> ohm meter.   There is a good chance of a shorted tantalum cap somewhere in
> the system shutting down the supply.  If the power supply is connected to
> the system via a connector,  disconnect it from the system and see if the
> supply puts out anything.
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Re: [time-nuts] Dual GPSDO - any advantage?

[Clint Jay]

Ahh, I've found the listing, has anyone received one?

I hate to say this but I'm highly sceptical that they will ever turn up,
looks and smells very much like the standard eBay scam to me.





On 10 April 2018 at 14:52, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Simple answer is that the “simple” approaches don’t do much to improve
> things.
> Errors are indeed un-correlated, even off of the same antenna. You *could*
> average the result off of the two. That might improve things by sqrt(2). My
> experience is that the bumps and lumps (when they do occur) are not the
> sort
> of thing that averages out nicely…..
>
> Bob
>
> > On Apr 10, 2018, at 1:43 AM, donald collie 
> wrote:
> >
> > I`ve just bought two GPSDO`s from China @ US$9-50 each [This is not an
> > error!] They are stated as being new, and use a Trimball dual oven OCXO.
> I
> > plan to run these in parallel [2 antennas, 2 feedlines, and 2 GPSDO`s]
> It`s
> > been said that a man with two watches is never happy - unless, of course,
> > they agree with each other ;-). Being identical the outputs should be
> > coherent, unless one becomes faulty [one advantage of having two - any
> > discrepancy and you know something must be wrong]], but is there some
> > crafty way I can squeeze a little more "accuracy" out of two than if I
> only
> > used one?
> > TIA for your commentsDonald
> > Brett Collie ZL4GX
> >
> > PS : I have no connection to the eBay seller. The US$9-50 seems to
> include
> > a basic puck antenna, long downlead, and 4 interseries adaptors
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Dual GPSDO - any advantage?

[Clint Jay]

Sad to say I think I was right, the listings have been pulled already and
the seller now has zero items for sale.

Get those paypal refund cases logged.

On 10 April 2018 at 15:13, gandalfg8--- via time-nuts 
wrote:

>
>
>
> Is this auction # 273145006434, actually showing at $9.77 here in the UK,
> and from a recently registered zero rated seller?
>
> If so, and given that the auction text, and perhaps the photos too, seem
> to be taken from one or more of Bob Mokia's
> auctions dating back a couple of years or so, and that this price is
> approximately $100 below the norm, perhaps
> a degree of caution might be worthwhile.
>
> It's either a very sad mistake, from the seller's point of view anyway, or
> perhaps something a little more devious!
>
> Nigel, GM8PZR
>
>
> I`ve just bought two GPSDO`s from China @ US$9-50 each [This is not an
> error!] They are stated as being new, and use a Trimball dual oven OCXO. I
> plan to run these in parallel [2 antennas, 2 feedlines, and 2 GPSDO`s] It`s
> been said that a man with two watches is never happy - unless, of course,
> they agree with each other ;-). Being identical the outputs should be
> coherent, unless one becomes faulty [one advantage of having two - any
> discrepancy and you know something must be wrong]], but is there some
> crafty way I can squeeze a little more "accuracy" out of two than if I only
> used one?
> TIA for your commentsDonald
> Brett Collie ZL4GX
>
> PS : I have no connection to the eBay seller. The US$9-50 seems to include
> a basic puck antenna, long downlead, and 4 interseries adaptors
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] 4046 replacement

[Clint Jay]

Why not try one, the 74HC4046 is pin compatible I think, you may need to
make some changes to use the '7046 version but you can then make a value
judgement if the flaw had in fact mainfested itself as a problem in your
design?

On 18 April 2018 at 09:04, donald collie  wrote:

> I have 4  frequency synthesiser projects, each using HEF4046BCN`s, but have
> recently read that this CMOS IC has a design flaw. What would be a better
> chip to retrofit? I`m thinking perhaps a HEF74HC4046AN [that`s if it
> doesn`t have the same bug], or a 74HC7046AN - which is similar. Both these
> chips are more-or-less pin compatable TIA for any
> advice!.
> ..Don
>
>  utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
>  utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Timing Antenna Failure - Long

[Clint Jay]

I'm all for anything that encourages whisky growth

On Sun, 13 May 2018 12:16 pm Dana Whitlow,  wrote:

> Flux can provide just the right kind of ionic leakage path that leads to
> whisky growth
> and eventual sudden shorts.
>
> Dana
>
>
> On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 12:23 AM, Hal Murray 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > lmcda...@lmceng.com said:
> > > To make this very long story into a short one, I learned that the  HP/
> > > Symmetricom 58532A GPS Reference (timing) antennas use a simple patch
> > > antenna instead of a quadrafilar antenna and that old solder flux
> > residue
> > > will attenuate the even amplified GPS signal out of this antenna.
> >
> > Flux seems unlikely to produce a sudden failure.
> >
> > If flux was the problem, I'd expect it to work poorly when first
> > installed,
> > or maybe decay slowly over time as something changed.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Bodnar "Precision Frequency Reference (GPS Clock)" AND LeoNTP Networked Time NTP Server Questions

[Clint Jay]

Interested to know how much noise would be from USB signalling and how much
is " machine noise"  from the PC as my understanding of USB signalling is
that it's differential so such should be low noise?

I'm also not sure I've ever seen a non screened usb cable?

On Fri, 18 May 2018 1:17 pm Dana Whitlow,  wrote:

> Caution, folks, about USB cable radiation.  While the intended signals
> flowing through the
> cable presumably contribute a bit to the overall picture, common-mode
> currents on the cable
> are the most likely cause of severe radiation problems.  These currents
> arise not merely from
> intended USB signals, but from *all* the digital activity within the
> device, and will be present
> whether or not USB communications are going on.
>
> The keys to controlling this problem are:
>
> 1) Shielding on the USB cable.
> 2) Proper design inside the USB device, rarely done beyond the point of
> (barely) meeting
>  government regulations, which are far too forgiving IMHO.
> 3) Use of a ferrite choke on the cable to reduce those residual currents
> that get by anyway.
>
> Note that only item 3 might be under the control of the user to any useful
> extent.
>
> So please don't just assume that using a USB cable for charging only solves
> anything.
>
> Note that the above comments are also generally applicable to *all *cables,
> including power
> cables, that are plugged into *any* digital device.
>
> DanaK8YUM
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 5:15 AM, David J Taylor via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
>
> > Anyone who is using one (or both) of these, and/or folks who have a
> > logical opinion:
> > []
> > There's more...  but this is a good start.  Just want to try and get
> > parts on the way.  Have to build a separate outboard regulator for the
> > timing GPS antenna, too.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Clay Autery
> > =
> >
> > Clay,
> >
> > I have all three of these units, all powered off USB.  I don't see any
> > reason why you shouldn't use a USB cable with just the DC part connected,
> > so that there's no issue about radiation.  A standard USB port would only
> > supply 0.5A so that's an upper limit on the power consumption.  If it's a
> > very long USB cable (you mention mast-head) check the resistance.
> >
> > As a crude guide...
> >
> > - The (larger box) NTP server feels cold to the touch.
> >
> > - The smaller, single output frequency source feels very slightly warm to
> > the touch (feeding an Icom IC-R8600)
> >
> > - The larger, dual-output frequency source feels slightly warm to the
> > touch.
> >
> > There's an e-mail address where you could ask:  supp...@leobodnar.com
> >
> > Cheers,
> > David
> > --
> > SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
> > Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
> > Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
> > Twitter: @gm8arv
> > ___
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[time-nuts] Motorola GPS Antenna?

[Clint Jay]

Found on eBay with no further information, can anyone identify?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EX-MOD-Motorola-Antenna/323177970249?hash=item4b3ee87a49:g:tHIAAOSwUCZavUAe

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Re: [time-nuts] Motorola GPS Antenna?

[Clint Jay]

Is it worth buying for that money if it is?

On Mon, 21 May 2018 5:13 pm Dan Rae,  wrote:

> On 5/21/2018 8:24 AM, Clint Jay wrote:
> > Found on eBay with no further information, can anyone identify?
> >
> >
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EX-MOD-Motorola-Antenna/323177970249?hash=item4b3ee87a49:g:tHIAAOSwUCZavUAe
> >
> It looks like the standard "Marine" antenna, probably 5v, loads of gain
> (30 dB?), like the one I have up on my roof.  There should be a part
> number under the rubber gasket if you want to ask the seller to have a
> look.
>
> Dan
>
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[time-nuts] GNS-500A Rubidium

[Clint Jay]

Just spotted on eBay, a rather sorry looking GNS-500A Rubidium standard,
it's not expensive and is up for best offer, May or may not be of use to
someone?
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Re: [time-nuts] GNS-500A Rubidium

[Clint Jay]

It has, in one of the pictures, a damaged label that says FRK so yes, I
would think that too.

It does look rather sad but could be a fun project perhaps.

On Fri, 25 May 2018 3:27 pm Bob kb8tq,  wrote:

> HI
>
> Unless I’m missing something, that’s an *old* Efratom. I would not count on
> it working without some significant effort. The price is right though.
>
> Bob
>
> > On May 25, 2018, at 10:21 AM, Clint Jay  wrote:
> >
> > Just spotted on eBay, a rather sorry looking GNS-500A Rubidium standard,
> > it's not expensive and is up for best offer, May or may not be of use to
> > someone?
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Re: [time-nuts] Sayrosa 607B Frequency Synthesiser

[Clint Jay]

SayRosa may be long gone but a lot of their IP went over to Wayne Kerr and
some is still produced to this day, the 257 automatic modulation meter is
one I think.

On Sun, 10 Jun 2018 at 20:31, gandalfg8--- via time-nuts 
wrote:

> Perhaps not a very common item, and probably restricted to the UK, but I
> have seen these mentioned here before.
>
> The 607B was a very nice 2 to 30MHz synthesiser used as the drive unit in
> the UK Diplomatic Service Piccolo radio system.
>
> Both Sayrosa and Piccolo are long gone, and information has always been
> hard to come by, but I've just scanned the 607B Training Manual and 607B
> Technical Handbook and uploaded PDF versions of both to Mediafire.
>
> This documentation is quite limited but so far is all I've ever seen for
> the 607B.
>
> Both can be found in a single file at
>
> http://www.mediafire.com/file/c6vv5t71cq741sd/Sayrosa%20607B.zip
>
> For what it's worth, my experience with these has been that by far the
> most common fault is the familiar shorted tantalum syndrome.
>
> Nigel GM8PZR
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5650A option 58 tuning word for 10 MHz output

[Clint Jay]

Option 58 in a FE Rb is an additional sub board which has nothing to do
with the physics package control loop.

In an option 58 Rb there are two DDS chips.




On 9 January 2017 at 17:48, Scott Stobbe  wrote:

> It very well could be. Based on Marks comments, it sounds like the DDS tone
> after being squared up is directly driving a 23-bit counter for the 1 PPS
> output.
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > In most Rb’s (including the FE 56xx’s) the DDS is mixed with a fixed
> > microwave
> > frequency signal. The DDS only has to make up “part” of the total offset.
> > You get
> > roughly a three orders of magnitude improvement because of this. Rick has
> > gone
> > into all the gory details of why it gets done this way in talking about
> > the 5071. It
> > is the same thing on an Rb.
> >
> > So, your basic math is correct about a normal DDS. In this case you are
> in
> > the
> > PPT rather than PPB range due to the multiplication.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> > > On Jan 9, 2017, at 10:40 AM, Scott Stobbe 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > A 32-bit DDS synthesizing at 1/5 Fs, yields a tuning resolution of ~ 1
> > ppb.
> > > So, I would imagine a slightly lower frequency is programmed into the
> DDS
> > > and the c-field is trimmed to yield a higher precision. If the new
> > > synthesized tone you wish to generate is an integer number of DDS codes
> > you
> > > could start by assuming the c-field is trimmed to be on frequency, but
> if
> > > the new tone is a fractional number of 32-bit DDS codes you will have
> to
> > > manually trim if you want higher precision.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 4:48 AM, wb6bnq  wrote:
> > >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5650A option 58 tuning word for 10 MHz output

[Clint Jay]

Yes,  in the 5650 there's only DDS on opt 58,  in the 5680 there is one in
the main loop too,  my bad for not being precise/muddled.

On 10 Jan 2017 01:43, "wb6bnq"  wrote:

> HI Bob & Clint,
>
> If you look at the second message of this thread, I attached the manual
> that applies to Option 58.  Look at PDF page # 16 and you will see that
> there is no DDS in the physics package.  The DDS is only used down stream
> in some variations of the product such as the Option 58 being discussed.
>
> BillWB6BNQ
>
> Bob kb8tq wrote:
>
> Hi
>>
>> In most Rb’s (including the FE 56xx’s) the DDS is mixed with a fixed
>> microwave frequency signal. The DDS only has to make up “part” of the total
>> offset. You get
>> roughly a three orders of magnitude improvement because of this. Rick has
>> gone
>> into all the gory details of why it gets done this way in talking about
>> the 5071. It
>> is the same thing on an Rb.
>> So, your basic math is correct about a normal DDS. In this case you are
>> in the
>> PPT rather than PPB range due to the multiplication.
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jan 9, 2017, at 10:40 AM, Scott Stobbe 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> A 32-bit DDS synthesizing at 1/5 Fs, yields a tuning resolution of ~ 1
>>> ppb.
>>> So, I would imagine a slightly lower frequency is programmed into the DDS
>>> and the c-field is trimmed to yield a higher precision. If the new
>>> synthesized tone you wish to generate is an integer number of DDS codes
>>> you
>>> could start by assuming the c-field is trimmed to be on frequency, but if
>>> the new tone is a fractional number of 32-bit DDS codes you will have to
>>> manually trim if you want higher precision.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 4:48 AM, wb6bnq  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5650A option 58 tuning word for 10 MHz output

[Clint Jay]

Oh that's interesting,  I've not seen the non DDS version of the 5680 yet.

The frequency division for output in the non option  58 ones I've had hands
on was definitely done in a CPLD chip,  the DDS was "for internal use only"
 as far as I could tell.

On 10 Jan 2017 09:07, "wb6bnq"  wrote:

> Hi Clint,
>
> Actually there are two versions of the 5680.  The older version is exactly
> like the 5650 option 58 composition.  The newer version has the DDS as part
> of the signal generation for the physics package.  And it appears that they
> may be using an FPGA programmed as a divider to provide the output
> frequency.
>
> BillWB6BNQ
>
>
> Clint Jay wrote:
>
> Yes,  in the 5650 there's only DDS on opt 58,  in the 5680 there is one in
>> the main loop too,  my bad for not being precise/muddled.
>>
>> On 10 Jan 2017 01:43, "wb6bnq"  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> HI Bob & Clint,
>>>
>>> If you look at the second message of this thread, I attached the manual
>>> that applies to Option 58.  Look at PDF page # 16 and you will see that
>>> there is no DDS in the physics package.  The DDS is only used down stream
>>> in some variations of the product such as the Option 58 being discussed.
>>>
>>> BillWB6BNQ
>>>
>>> Bob kb8tq wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>>
>>>> In most Rb’s (including the FE 56xx’s) the DDS is mixed with a fixed
>>>> microwave frequency signal. The DDS only has to make up “part” of the
>>>> total
>>>> offset. You get
>>>> roughly a three orders of magnitude improvement because of this. Rick
>>>> has
>>>> gone
>>>> into all the gory details of why it gets done this way in talking about
>>>> the 5071. It
>>>> is the same thing on an Rb.
>>>> So, your basic math is correct about a normal DDS. In this case you are
>>>> in the
>>>> PPT rather than PPB range due to the multiplication.
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 9, 2017, at 10:40 AM, Scott Stobbe 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> A 32-bit DDS synthesizing at 1/5 Fs, yields a tuning resolution of ~ 1
>>>>> ppb.
>>>>> So, I would imagine a slightly lower frequency is programmed into the
>>>>> DDS
>>>>> and the c-field is trimmed to yield a higher precision. If the new
>>>>> synthesized tone you wish to generate is an integer number of DDS codes
>>>>> you
>>>>> could start by assuming the c-field is trimmed to be on frequency, but
>>>>> if
>>>>> the new tone is a fractional number of 32-bit DDS codes you will have
>>>>> to
>>>>> manually trim if you want higher precision.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 4:48 AM, wb6bnq  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Car Clock drift - the lowly 32kHz tuning fork crystal specs

[Clint Jay]

The clocks in my car have been set by the RDS data, DAB data or GPS in the
last five or six I've had. Drift is a thing of the past as long as i listen
to digital radio or the BBC on analogue FM, if i listen to neither then the
clock drifts a couple of seconds a month but it syncs right up withing a
minute or two of DAB or BBC FM.

The GPS set clocks never noticeably change.

I have a vague memory of at least one of the crystal controlled clocks
having a 4.194304MHz crystal which, i think, so a divide by 2^22 if memory
serves which would make for lower drift in the 1HZ?

On 9 Apr 2017 2:01 pm, "Tim Shoppa"  wrote:

> I've had only a few different cars over the past 25 years but I've been
> impressed with how accurate their mass-market built-in clocks are,
> especially considering the wide and completely uncontrolled temperature
> range. In the winter the interior of the car gets down below freezing most
> mornings, and in the summer the interior gets way above 120F in sunlight.
>
> (Contrast the above with the time-nuttery here where folks buy double-oven
> OCXO's and then they insist that the OCXO's have to be put in temperature
> controlled environments.)
>
> I only set the car clock twice a year, at daylight savings time changes.
> Yet between daylight savings time changes, the car clock never drifts by
> more than a minute.
>
> 60 seconds in half a year is 4ppm. So I went and looked at the specs of a
> stock 32kHz crystal, for example
> http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/77/CFS-CFV-4402.pdf
>
> 1: The crystal is speced as having a turnover point of 25C. I understand
> that.
> 2: Frequency at the turnover point is speced as being +/-20ppm. OK, that's
> not bad, most of that can be compensated for with a small trimmer cap at
> the factory to the 4ppm range. Or maybe they just program in the clock
> divider at the factory appropriate to the crystal.
> 3: The temperature coefficient of the tuning fork cut around the turnover
> point seems to always be the same: -.034ppm per deg C squared. If the temp
> goes down to 5 deg C, then, the frequency changes by 14ppm. If the temp
> goes down to -5 deg C, the frequency changes by 30ppm.
>
> With that temperature coefficient, temperatures like -5C or 5C that are
> common every winter would result in a few minutes of drift every winter.
> Yet I never observe that drift.
>
> So my conclusion, is that all these car clocks must be temperature
> compensated. And they must've been doing this for several decades at this
> point.
>
> That shouldn't be too surprising - right next to the clock display on the
> dashboard is a digital thermometer. Maybe 30 or more years ago the
> temperature compensation was done by analog circuitry, but today I'm
> guessing there's a digital chip that takes the thermometer reading and
> numerically adjusts the divider word for the 32kHz oscillator to
> temperature compensate the clock digitally.
>
> Is there a way to verify my guess at the TCXO method?
>
> I'm guessing that all the better quartz wristwatches use a similar
> technology too. Maybe they have a different crystal cut that is closer to
> body temperature for the turnover point.
>
> Tim N3QE
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Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut going England!

[Clint Jay]

Greenwich as recommended by others is a must, the science museum is also a
good way to spend a day.

Cheap and London don't necessarily go hand in hand unpess you go d hostel
style accommodation or perhaps even youth hostels?

I can recommend the New Linden hotel near Notting hill gate from recent
personal experience. There are plenty of little family owned hotels of a
similar standard but they're still around £100 a night.

On 26 Apr 2017 4:01 pm, "Attila Kinali"  wrote:

> Hi
>
> I'll be in the UK for three weeks and will have a "free" week
> between 13th and 20th of May. I will most probably be around
> the London area and maybe spend a day or two in Southampton.
>
> If someone wants to meet for a beer or cup of hot chocolate,
> or knows of time-nutty things to do, please let me know.
>
> I would also appreciate if someone knows an affordable place
> to stay at in London, so that it doesn't strain the purse
> of this poor student too much.
>
> Attila Kinali
>
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
>  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut going England!

[Clint Jay]

Yes, Bletchley is a good day out but be aware the national museum of
computing is a separate entity and has its own entry fee.

On 27 Apr 2017 12:00 pm, "Dave B via time-nuts"  wrote:

> On 26/04/17 17:00, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
>
> > Message: 12
> > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 15:05:52 +0200
> > From: Attila Kinali 
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Subject: [time-nuts] Time-nut going England!
> > Message-ID: <20170426150552.93c33e4cbe356663386bb...@kinali.ch>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I'll be in the UK for three weeks and will have a "free" week
> > between 13th and 20th of May. I will most probably be around
> > the London area and maybe spend a day or two in Southampton.
> >
> > If someone wants to meet for a beer or cup of hot chocolate,
> > or knows of time-nutty things to do, please let me know.
> >
> > I would also appreciate if someone knows an affordable place
> > to stay at in London, so that it doesn't strain the purse
> > of this poor student too much.
> >
> >   Attila Kinali
>
> 
> Not exactly "TN" material, but you'd find this an interesting day out.
>
> https://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/
>
> Get an off peak return rail ticket from Euston to Bletchley, it's a
> short walk from the rail station.
>
> The National museum of computing (and other special interests) are there
> too.
>
> Else the various museums in London will more than keep you occupied!
>
> Regards.
>
> Dave B, not that far from BP, but no idea what I'll be doing the time
> you plan to be in the UK. "Domestic Management" has not told me the
> plans for that far ahead yet!  :)
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Surplus Lucent RFTG-m-II units in rack shelf

[Clint Jay]

Congratulations, I was mulling over buying it, even just for resale if the
Rb standard worked its worth way more than the asking price, looking
forward to seeing the results of testing.

On 12 May 2017 9:18 am, "Iain Young"  wrote:

> On 12/05/17 07:23, Gregory Beat wrote:
>
> As noted by Bob Camp, this Lucent pair has a rubidium standard and OCXO.
>> Since I posted (15 hours ago), he has sold 18 units.
>>
>
> Think I just grabbed the last one.
>
> Note, judging by the pictures, the 10MHz reference from the Rb is fed
> to the GPS receiver, and that outputs 15MHz (presumably disciplined).
> The output on the right hand side of the Rb unit looks to be 15MHz.
>
> Also interesting, the splitter appears to have two inputs. I'm guessing
> that's two splitters, or more likely for this gear, for fail over,
> and only one output is active.
>
> Should be fun to find out. I'm betting more than just me acquired one
> on this list. Like Gregory, I'd love to see the good/bad/ugly, both
> in Frequency and Time
>
> (It's likely to be two weeks before it arrives here, and I'll not get
> chance to play until at least the second half of June, so I bet others
> will get there ahead of me)
>
>
> Iain
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Re: [time-nuts] Poor man's oven

[Clint Jay]

There's a few 'OCXO' designs out there, I'm not qualified to comment on the
timenutty quality of them but someone else mentioned Hans Summers offerings
and I would offer Roman Black's simple design (if it's not been mentioned
already):

http://www.romanblack.com/xoven.htm

I've no idea if it's useful but it's ridiculously simple to implement.

Both Hans' and Roman's designs are 'on the list' of things to try for
myself at some point.

On 5 June 2017 at 09:56, Stephen Tompsett  wrote:

> Not quite as simple as the PTC, an alternative may be:
>
> http://shop.kuhne-electronic.de/kuhne/en/shop/accessoires/
> crystal-heater/Precision+crystal+heater+40%C2%B0+QH40A/?card=724
>
> No it probably doesn't hold the crystal at it's optimum turn over
> temperature, but it will keep the temperature of a crystal approximately
> constant especially on a windswept hilltop.
>
>
> On 05/06/2017 09:35, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts wrote:
> >   The Crystal heater clip wasa Murata "Posistor" soldered onto a clipand
> they were marketed by Murata.
> > I once purchased a small amount of theseand used them as "poor man's
> ovens".
> > Although not perfect by far, they did theirjob and kept my UHF gear
> stable.
> > Murata dropped that product many yearsago and I have not been able to
> findany similar product. The Posistors arelisted by eg. Digi-key but they
> do not stock them.
> > Ulf - SM6GXV
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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> >
>
> --
> Stephen Tompsett
>
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-- 
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of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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[time-nuts] Halcyon OFS

[Clint Jay]

I have been given a Halcyon Electronics OFS1 standard which seems to work,
it's a version that has 198KHz and 162KHz selector on the fron and after a
reasonable period of time it displays 'lock' and gives a nicely stable 1,10
and 10 MHz output on the front panel BNCs, (I know, it should be 1,5 and
10MHz out, read on)

Does anyone know of a PDF manual? This version has two KHz crystals inside
it and I'd like to see how/if it's been modified so a manual with a
schematic would be even more useful.



-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] Halcyon OFS

[Clint Jay]

Thank you Stephen, Nigel, I'll take some pictures of the board in my OFS-1
but it doesn't match any of the pictures I've tracked down so far.

Interesting that the board mounted on the rear of the enclosure with the
trimmers appears to be Vero or perf board of some description...

On 19 June 2017 at 11:54, Stephen Tompsett (G8LYB) 
wrote:

> I have a little Halcyon information I managed to find a few years ago
> when I acquired a couple of PFS units. It includes a brief document on
> OFS alignment.
>
> I'll mail the documentation to you directly...
>
>
> On 19/06/2017 10:17, Clint Jay wrote:
> > I have been given a Halcyon Electronics OFS1 standard which seems to
> work,
> > it's a version that has 198KHz and 162KHz selector on the fron and after
> a
> > reasonable period of time it displays 'lock' and gives a nicely stable
> 1,10
> > and 10 MHz output on the front panel BNCs, (I know, it should be 1,5 and
> > 10MHz out, read on)
> >
> > Does anyone know of a PDF manual? This version has two KHz crystals
> inside
> > it and I'd like to see how/if it's been modified so a manual with a
> > schematic would be even more useful.
> >
> >
> --
> Stephen Tompsett (G8LYB)
> Tel: 01788 578940
> Mob: 07956 855816
>
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-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP5090A Off Air Standard Receiver

[Clint Jay]

If it's just locking to the carrier I wonder if it'd be possible to use a
suitably modified PICDiv clocked from a 'standard' 10MHz GPS locked device
like the Lucent?

On 19 June 2017 at 14:19, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts 
wrote:

> I suppose a converter from 198KHz could be an option but I know of at
> least one other experimenter who's run into problems with the Teleswitch
> modulation on the Droitwich signal when trying something similar with a
> 5090A.
>
> Although, from one point of view, running it from the present 198KHz
> signal might be considered the ultimate goal it's the operation of the
> hardware
> itself that's of more interest to me in this instance, so I'm  quite happy
> just to feed it with an accurate 200KHz signal from  whatever other sources
> are available.
>
> Nigel, GM8PZR
>
>
> How about building a frequency converter to produce 200KHz; mixing  the
> incoming RF (198KHz) with 2KHz derived from the output of the  unit,
>
> On 18/06/2017 21:17, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts wrote:
> > Hi  Pete
> That's quite good timing, if you'll pardon the expression:-), as I
> uploaded  a pdf version of the 5090A manual to mediafire a couple of
> months
> ago http://www.mediafire.com/file/u0bf1eips89uo3h/HP_5090A_Ops_
> and_Service.pdf
> I know a few others have considered converting the 5090A to 198KHz but
> it's  not straightforward and I believe the general consensus has been that
> it's  not  really worth the effort.
> I have a 5090B which I'm hoping  to get up and running when it finally
> reaches the top of the to do list and my  view is that it would be much
> better
> to leave the original electronics  undisturbed and to drive it with a  200
> KHz signal divided down from a from  a GPSDO or a rubidium  module,
> although
> having one of the latter already  running at 800KHz  does leave me a bit
> biased:-)
> Regards
> Nigel,  GM8PZR
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-- 
Clint.

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of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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Re: [time-nuts] Halcyon OFS

[Clint Jay]

Mine is somewhat different to that model, the case is the same as the
leftmost one but the board is quite different to the middle picture.

I'll post some links to pictures of the internals and start drawing out the
circuit over the coming few days.




On 19 June 2017 at 14:29, paul swed  wrote:

> Great pix can be found here and absolutely can easily be reverse
> engineered.
> https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=97999
> Very simple straight forward design.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 9:25 AM, paul swed  wrote:
>
> > Hello to the group. I suspect I will never see such a unit in the states.
> > Also it wouldn't be useful.
> > But that said its sounds as though its a traditional simple receiver that
> > should be able to be reverse engineered. At least for the signal and
> > locking chain. If a micro is involved then things get fuzzy fast. Anyhow
> > good luck with you digging in.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Clint Jay  wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you Stephen, Nigel, I'll take some pictures of the board in my
> OFS-1
> >> but it doesn't match any of the pictures I've tracked down so far.
> >>
> >> Interesting that the board mounted on the rear of the enclosure with the
> >> trimmers appears to be Vero or perf board of some description...
> >>
> >> On 19 June 2017 at 11:54, Stephen Tompsett (G8LYB) <
> step...@tompsett.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I have a little Halcyon information I managed to find a few years ago
> >> > when I acquired a couple of PFS units. It includes a brief document on
> >> > OFS alignment.
> >> >
> >> > I'll mail the documentation to you directly...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 19/06/2017 10:17, Clint Jay wrote:
> >> > > I have been given a Halcyon Electronics OFS1 standard which seems to
> >> > work,
> >> > > it's a version that has 198KHz and 162KHz selector on the fron and
> >> after
> >> > a
> >> > > reasonable period of time it displays 'lock' and gives a nicely
> stable
> >> > 1,10
> >> > > and 10 MHz output on the front panel BNCs, (I know, it should be 1,5
> >> and
> >> > > 10MHz out, read on)
> >> > >
> >> > > Does anyone know of a PDF manual? This version has two KHz crystals
> >> > inside
> >> > > it and I'd like to see how/if it's been modified so a manual with a
> >> > > schematic would be even more useful.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > --
> >> > Stephen Tompsett (G8LYB)
> >> > Tel: 01788 578940
> >> > Mob: 07956 855816
> >> >
> >> > ___
> >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> >> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> > and follow the instructions there.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Clint.
> >>
> >> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large
> number
> >> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
> >> ___
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> >> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Halcyon OFS

[Clint Jay]

It seems I have a hybrid, on the front panel it's an OFS-1, on the serial
number label it's an OFS-1A and on the PCB it's an OFS-2.

http://imgur.com/a/brRou

On 19 June 2017 at 17:40, Ole Stender Nielsen  wrote:

> I got a Halcyon OFS-1 a while back, and found it was virtually impossible
> to use here in Denmark, which seems to be located too far away from the
> Allouis (162 kHz) or Droitwich (198 kHz) transmitter sites. One major
> design flaw of the OFS-1 is the digital divider used to divide an analog
> signal.
> You can find more information about an experimental modification to
> increase the robustness and usefulness of the OFS-1 here:
> http://dabbledoo.weebly.com/halcyon-ofs-1.html
>
> Best regards
> Ole
>
>
>
> Den 19-06-2017 kl. 17:15 skrev Clint Jay:
>
>> Mine is somewhat different to that model, the case is the same as the
>> leftmost one but the board is quite different to the middle picture.
>>
>> I'll post some links to pictures of the internals and start drawing out
>> the
>> circuit over the coming few days.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 19 June 2017 at 14:29, paul swed  wrote:
>>
>> Great pix can be found here and absolutely can easily be reverse
>>> engineered.
>>> https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=97999
>>> Very simple straight forward design.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 9:25 AM, paul swed  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello to the group. I suspect I will never see such a unit in the states.
>>>> Also it wouldn't be useful.
>>>> But that said its sounds as though its a traditional simple receiver
>>>> that
>>>> should be able to be reverse engineered. At least for the signal and
>>>> locking chain. If a micro is involved then things get fuzzy fast. Anyhow
>>>> good luck with you digging in.
>>>> Regards
>>>> Paul
>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Clint Jay  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thank you Stephen, Nigel, I'll take some pictures of the board in my
>>>>>
>>>> OFS-1
>>>
>>>> but it doesn't match any of the pictures I've tracked down so far.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting that the board mounted on the rear of the enclosure with
>>>>> the
>>>>> trimmers appears to be Vero or perf board of some description...
>>>>>
>>>>> On 19 June 2017 at 11:54, Stephen Tompsett (G8LYB) <
>>>>>
>>>> step...@tompsett.net>
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a little Halcyon information I managed to find a few years ago
>>>>>> when I acquired a couple of PFS units. It includes a brief document on
>>>>>> OFS alignment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll mail the documentation to you directly...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 19/06/2017 10:17, Clint Jay wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have been given a Halcyon Electronics OFS1 standard which seems to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it's a version that has 198KHz and 162KHz selector on the fron and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> after
>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> reasonable period of time it displays 'lock' and gives a nicely
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> stable
>>>
>>>> 1,10
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and 10 MHz output on the front panel BNCs, (I know, it should be 1,5
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> 10MHz out, read on)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does anyone know of a PDF manual? This version has two KHz crystals
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> inside
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it and I'd like to see how/if it's been modified so a manual with a
>>>>>>> schematic would be even more useful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Stephen Tompsett (G8LYB)
>>>>>> Tel: 01788 578940
>>>>>> Mob: 07956 855816
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ___
>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Clint.
>>>>>
>>>>> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large
>>>>>
>>>> number
>>>
>>>> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
>>>>> ___
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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-- 
Clint.

*No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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Re: [time-nuts] CRT for Tracor 527A

[Clint Jay]

A little extra heater voltage and allowing the tube to 'cook' a while can
help as can a CRT rejuvenator but the cathode is usually tiny on a mono
tube and  from experience with television repairs back in the dawn of my
career, they very rarely last any length of time after rejuvenation before
emission dies off again.

YMMV, a NOS tube may respond better and if you've gone from nothing to
something it may be worth taking the gamble, especially if the tube you're
replacing is badly burned in.

On 20 Jun 2017 11:00 pm, "Brooke Clarke"  wrote:

> Hi:
>
> Yes, there are Cathode "Rejuvenators" that can sometimes give a CRT some
> more lift.  This is a problem with all test equipment that uses CRTs.
> There are LCD replacements for the CRT in some HP equipment, like the 8566
> SA.
>
> --
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>
>  Original Message 
>
>> Hello to the group.
>> I was not going to comment on the thread. But realized I should.
>> A caution on CRTs is that if they have been around a long time they may
>> have very poor emissions. Even if new. Cathode pollutes over time.
>> Just saying don't be to surprised if you don't get what you paid for.
>> Best of luck to you.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Pete Lancashire > >
>> wrote:
>>
>> Not rare but uncommon. I gave the one I have away a couple years ago. Ask
>>> on a few of he military/boatanchor lists, I've had pretty good luck.
>>>
>>> -pete
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 2:01 PM, David C. Partridge <
>>> david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Trying a long shot here, I'm looking for a 1" CRT type 1EP1 (or 1EP11,

>>> or?)
>>>
 for a Tracor 527A Frequency Difference Meter.

 I did spot some on eBay but the vendor had a rather high opinion of
 their
 worth :) at over 300 dollars

 Anyone got one to spare?

 Thanks
 Dave

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Re: [time-nuts] Anderson PowerPole (was Charles Wenzel GPSDO)

[Clint Jay]

It is possible to get hold of locking barrel connectors, they insert as
normal and a quarter twist fastens them in place. The plugs and sockets are
compatible with non locking equivalents too.

Of course they're not great for applications that need a decent amount of
current and other disadvantages as noted elsewhere.

On 22 Jun 2017 1:11 pm, "Attila Kinali"  wrote:

> Moin,
>
> On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 06:20:27 -0500
> Clay Autery  wrote:
>
> > TVB for the win!  
> >
> > Can we please let it go here?
> > Do we REALLY need to have the same PPcon discussion yet again?
>
> Actually, I read it with interest. I am designing quite a bit of
> electronics. A lot of it is single use, then "throw-away" these
> days so long running times are not that much of an issue.
> But selecting the right power connector is always a problem
> I face. I often choose the 5.5x2.5mm barrel plugs, as they are
> quite common on power supplies, but they are kind of suboptimal
> when it comes to retentiony The Kycon 4-pole plug is slightly
> better, but every and each power supply has a different pinout,
> which means that I either need to design it for a specific power
> supply or add 8 diodes to get the polarity right.
>
> I pondered a couple of times to use Molex Micro-fit connectors,
> as they are cheap, locking and available in almost any number of
> poles. The current and voltage rating hare high enough for almost
> all needs (but not enough for 240V mains, even if it's rated 300V!).
> And incidentally the crimping tool doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
> But it's not really a connector one wants to use to power a device
> in a proper housing.
>
> Reading on what other people are using and what advantages/disadvantages
> the different power plugs have is quite interesting for me.
>
> So, please keep it comming!
>
> Attila Kinali
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
>  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Anderson PowerPole (was Charles Wenzel GPSDO)

[Clint Jay]

Heh, I was thinking just that when I typed it. They're almost inverted, the
pegs are on the plug and the slots are on the socket, the ones I've seen
aren't spiral slots, you have to fully engage the plug before you twist.

I like PowerPoles, I like barrel connections, as with so many things it's
all about the application, choose the one that works for you.



On 22 Jun 2017 1:53 pm, "Bob Bownes"  wrote:

> Locking barrel connectors...
>
> Aren't those called BNCs? ;)
>
> In one of my other lives, I see Power Poles used in a very life critical
> application. They are used to connect pads to Automatic External
> Defibrillators. In that application, the two poles (15A, red & white) are
> glued together rather than using the roll pin.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jun 22, 2017, at 08:29, Clint Jay  wrote:
> >
> > It is possible to get hold of locking barrel connectors, they insert as
> > normal and a quarter twist fastens them in place. The plugs and sockets
> are
> > compatible with non locking equivalents too.
> >
> > Of course they're not great for applications that need a decent amount of
> > current and other disadvantages as noted elsewhere.
> >
> >> On 22 Jun 2017 1:11 pm, "Attila Kinali"  wrote:
> >>
> >> Moin,
> >>
> >> On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 06:20:27 -0500
> >> Clay Autery  wrote:
> >>
> >>> TVB for the win!  
> >>>
> >>> Can we please let it go here?
> >>> Do we REALLY need to have the same PPcon discussion yet again?
> >>
> >> Actually, I read it with interest. I am designing quite a bit of
> >> electronics. A lot of it is single use, then "throw-away" these
> >> days so long running times are not that much of an issue.
> >> But selecting the right power connector is always a problem
> >> I face. I often choose the 5.5x2.5mm barrel plugs, as they are
> >> quite common on power supplies, but they are kind of suboptimal
> >> when it comes to retentiony The Kycon 4-pole plug is slightly
> >> better, but every and each power supply has a different pinout,
> >> which means that I either need to design it for a specific power
> >> supply or add 8 diodes to get the polarity right.
> >>
> >> I pondered a couple of times to use Molex Micro-fit connectors,
> >> as they are cheap, locking and available in almost any number of
> >> poles. The current and voltage rating hare high enough for almost
> >> all needs (but not enough for 240V mains, even if it's rated 300V!).
> >> And incidentally the crimping tool doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
> >> But it's not really a connector one wants to use to power a device
> >> in a proper housing.
> >>
> >> Reading on what other people are using and what advantages/disadvantages
> >> the different power plugs have is quite interesting for me.
> >>
> >> So, please keep it comming!
> >>
> >>Attila Kinali
> >> --
> >> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> >> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> >> use without that foundation.
> >> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
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Re: [time-nuts] Anderson PowerPole (was Charles Wenzel GPSDO)

[Clint Jay]

Ooh, I forgot the Neutrik range, haven't used those for years.

Excellent quality and not horrifically expensive

On 22 Jun 2017 3:11 pm, "Clay Autery"  wrote:

> OK I was wrong...  Attila was right.  IF we are going to talk
> alternatives and not simply bash PP cons, then I'm in.  Always up for a
> bit of over-engineering.  
>
> The speakon connectors are interesting...
>
> Do you have a favorite series/model, Mike?
>
> __
> Clay Autery, KY5G
>
> On 6/22/2017 7:40 AM, Mike Seguin wrote:
> > For anything critical, I use these connector from the professional
> > sound industry.
> >
> > http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Units in Z3801A

[Clint Jay]

Well that's handy to know, I've got a box of those I picked up from a
hamfest. I'll have to dig them out and test them

On 12 Jul 2017 2:55 pm, "Pete Lancashire"  wrote:

> I may have more of replacement Motorola GPS receiver modules. I had been
> sorting out stuff in storage
> and ran across some boxes that came from the same source the last batch
> came from. It maybe a couple
> weeks before I can find out. My dance card is pretty full for the next
> couple weeks and weekends.
>
> The pictures from last year
>
> http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=5249
>
> -pete
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Hal Murray 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > I have a Z3801A that has lost contact with GPS.  The GPS module is
> working
> > -
> > the list of not-tracking  satellites changes occasionally, but it never
> > tracks anything.  I've tried swapping antennas and such but that hasn't
> > helped.
> >
> > How often does the front end of the GPS module die?
> >
> > Will the newer 8 channel modules work in the Z3801A or do I need to
> locate
> > an
> > old 6 channel version?
> >
> > Is there a tells-all web page or message to this list about GPS modules
> for
> > the Z3801A?  I'd expect one, but I haven't found it.
> >
> > 
> >
> > I noticed that the UTC time from the status page is different from the T2
> > time.
> >
> > T220170719039300141
> >
> > The UTC clock seems to have gone crazy.  From the status page:
> > Tracking: 0Not Tracking: 6UTC  06:28:15 [?] 01
> Nov
> > 2018
> > Tracking: 0Not Tracking: 6UTC  06:28:15 [?] 22
> Aug
> > 2019
> > Tracking: 0Not Tracking: 6UTC  06:28:15 [?] 19
> Dec
> > 2019
> >
> > The T2 time is a day old.  My guess is that it pulled the time it's using
> > for
> > T2 from wherever it stores the log slots.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

[Clint Jay]

Didn't someone demonstrate this using some rather expensive but 'off the
shelf' Rohde & Schwarz lab gear a year or so ago?



On 12 August 2017 at 22:23, John Allen  wrote:

> FYI, John K1AE
>
> -Original Message-
> From: YCCC [mailto:yccc-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of ROBERT
> DOHERTY
> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2017 9:26 AM
> To: YCCC Reflector
> Subject: [YCCC] Fwd: Re: [Radio Officers, &c] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing
> attack suggest Russian cyberweapon
>
> As if there were not enough problems in the world .
>
> Whitey  K1VV
>
> > Date: August 12, 2017 at 7:37 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Radio Officers, &c] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing
> attack suggest Russian cyberweapon
> >
> > Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon
> >
> > News from: New Scientis (article reported by R/O Luca Milone –
> IZ7GEG)
> >
> > https://www.newscientist.com/article/2143499-ships-fooled-
> in-gps-spoofing-attack-suggest-russian-cyberweapon/#.
> WY6zNfZq1VA.google_plusone_share https://www.newscientist.com/
> article/2143499-ships-fooled-in-gps-spoofing-attack-
> suggest-russian-cyberweapon/#.WY6zNfZq1VA.google_plusone_share
> >
> >
> > On date: 10 August 2017
> >
> > By David Hambling
> >
> >
> > Reports of satellite navigation problems in the Black Sea suggest
> that Russia may be testing a new system for spoofing GPS, New Scientist has
> learned. This could be the first hint of a new form of electronic warfare
> available to everyone from rogue nation states to petty criminals.
> >
> >
> > On 22 June, the US Maritime Administration filed a seemingly bland
> incident report. The master of a ship off the Russian port of Novorossiysk
> had discovered his GPS put him in the wrong spot – more than 32 kilometres
> inland, at Gelendzhik Airport.
> >
> >
> > After checking the navigation equipment was working properly, the
> captain contacted other nearby ships. Their AIS traces – signals from the
> automatic identification system used to track vessels – placed them all at
> the same airport. At least 20 ships were affected
> http://maritime-executive.com/editorials/mass-gps-spoofing-
> attack-in-black-sea .
> >
> >
> > While the incident is not yet confirmed, experts think this is the
> first documented use of GPS misdirection – https://www.marad.dot.gov/
> msci/alert/2017/2017-005a-gps-interference-black-sea/  a spoofing attack
> that has long been warned of but never been seen in the wild.
> >
> >
> > Until now, the biggest worry for GPS has been it can be jammed
> https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20202-gps-chaos-how-
> a-30-box-can-jam-your-life/  by masking the GPS satellite signal with
> noise. While this can cause chaos, it is also easy to detect. GPS receivers
> sound an alarm when they lose the signal due to jamming. Spoofing is more
> insidious: a false signal from a ground station simply confuses a satellite
> receiver. “Jamming just causes the receiver to die, spoofing causes the
> receiver to lie,” says consultant David Last
> http://www.professordavidlast.co.uk/ , former president of the UK’s Royal
> Institute of Navigation.
> >
> >
> > Todd Humphreys http://www.ae.utexas.edu/faculty/faculty-directory/
> humphreys , of the University of Texas at Austin, has been warning of the
> coming danger of GPS spoofing for many years. In 2013, he showed how a
> superyacht with state-of-the-art navigation could be lured off-course by
> GPS spoofing. “The receiver’s behaviour in the Black Sea incident was much
> like during the controlled attacks http://onlinelibrary.wiley.
> com/doi/10.1002/navi.183/full  my team conducted,” says Humphreys.
> >
> >
> > Humphreys thinks this is Russia experimenting with a new form of
> electronic warfare. Over the past year, GPS spoofing has been causing chaos
> for the receivers on phone apps in central Moscow to misbehave
> https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/the-kremlin-eats-gps-
> for-breakfast-55823 . The scale of the problem did not become apparent
> until people began trying to play Pokemon Go. The fake signal, which seems
> to centre on the Kremlin, relocates anyone nearby to Vnukovo Airport
> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/01/bizarre-gps-
> spoofing-means-drivers-near-kremlin-always-airport/ , 32 km away. This is
> probably for defensive reasons; many NATO guided bombs, missiles and drones
> rely on GPS navigation, and successful spoofing would make it impossible
> for them to hit their targets.
> >
> >
> > But now the geolocation interference is being used far away from the
> Kremlin. Some worry that this means that spoofing is getting easier. GPS
> spoofing previously required considerable technical expertise. Humphreys
> had to build his first spoofer from scratch in 2008, but notes that it can
> now be done with commercial hardware and software downloaded from the
> Internet.
> >
> >
> > Nor does it require much power. Satellite signals are very weak –
> about 20 watts fr

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

[Clint Jay]

It might have been a hoax but I'm sure I saw it demonstrated by a couple of
students who used it to fool Pokémon go...

On 14 Aug 2017 8:27 am, "Martin Burnicki" 
wrote:

> Clint Jay wrote:
> > Didn't someone demonstrate this using some rather expensive but 'off the
> > shelf' Rohde & Schwarz lab gear a year or so ago?
>
> https://news.utexas.edu/2013/07/29/ut-austin-researchers-
> successfully-spoof-an-80-million-yacht-at-sea
>
> https://sofrep.com/46818/gps-spoofing-how-iran-tricked-us-
> patrol-boats-into-capture/
>
> Martin
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

[Clint Jay]

Absolutely, their use of it was for something trivial and my reason for
using that example was to show how 'simple' and available the technology is
if a couple of students could do it with lab equipment that anyone can buy
(obviously you'd need deep pockets).

That it can "so easily" be spoofed (it's not a trivial hack to spoof and
would, as far as I can see, take good knowledge of how GPS works and skill
to implement) is worrying and it could have disastrous consequences if
anyone decided to use it for malicious means but I'd be surprised if there
wasn't a turnkey solution available to anyone who has the funds.

On 14 Aug 2017 10:04 am, "Martin Burnicki" 
wrote:

> Clint Jay wrote:
> > It might have been a hoax but I'm sure I saw it demonstrated by a couple
> of
> > students who used it to fool Pokémon go...
>
> Yes, I read about that, too. However, related to Pokémon go it's just
> fun, but related to serious application it can cause quite some damage.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

[Clint Jay]

No, this was not the software hack, it was done with some rather nice
Rohde&Schwarz test equipment.

On 14 Aug 2017 10:42 am, "Martin Burnicki" 
wrote:

> Clint Jay wrote:
> > Absolutely, their use of it was for something trivial and my reason for
> > using that example was to show how 'simple' and available the technology
> is
> > if a couple of students could do it with lab equipment that anyone can
> buy
> > (obviously you'd need deep pockets).
>
> I just searched for "Pokémon GO GPS spoofing" on the 'net.
>
> Looks like this was just a hack in Android where apps were provided with
> a spoofed position from the hack instead of the true position determined
> by the GPS/GNSS receiver.
>
> So this is quite a different thing than spoofing the real GPS signals,
> and it only affects the devices which have that hack installed.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

[Clint Jay]

Oh definitely and if I was going to cheat at Pokémon then that'd be the
most cost effective method (yes, I play, my 9 year old son insists) but I'd
rather have the "fun" of actually catching them the proper way

On 14 Aug 2017 12:08 pm, "Martin Burnicki" 
wrote:

> Clint Jay wrote:
> > No, this was not the software hack, it was done with some rather nice
> > Rohde&Schwarz test equipment.
>
> Ah, OK, of course that's also possible.
>
> However, what I found was much simpler:
> https://devs-lab.com/how-to-play-pokemon-go-without-
> moving-no-root-required.html
>
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