[time-nuts] WWVB Receiver
Here I found a complete "dead bug" style WWVB receiver project from 2017 on YT. #0001 WWVB Receiver Project - Part 1 https://youtu.be/zD_INHy3BBI Donald Resor N6KAW ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB Disciplined Oscillator
Perhaps this has been mention before, but I found the following document while researching some details on WWVB and thought it might interest the group: https://www.kevincroissant.com/WWVB/WWVB_PTTI_2018.pdf I know that Spectracom once made a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator in the form of the Model 8164, but I figured that this approach probably was obsolete in the era of GPS and network-based time. However, the author seems to have produced some interesting results. Has anyone else built, or tried to build a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator? Wayne ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: NIST 60KHz message
On Sunday, March 14, 2021, 11:56:11 AM EDT, Jeffrey Pawlan wrote: > I have been using the new BPSK receiver for NIST. There are two strange > things that perhaps others can explain. I don't know if this has anything to do with what you are experiencing, but WWVB is currently undergoing an equipment upgrade to improve the reliability of the signal. According to the WWVB website (https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-distribution/radio-station-wwvb): In order to install this equipment, beginning on March 9, 2021 the WWVB signal may be operated on a single antenna at approximately 30 kW radiated power for periods up to several days in duration, and may have occasional outages. Periods of reduced power operation lasting longer than 30 minutes will be logged on the WWVB Antenna Configuration and Power web page (https://www.nist.gov/time-distribution/radio-station-wwvb/wwvb-antenna-configuration-and-power), and any outage longer than five minutes' duration will be recorded on the WWVB Outage web page (https://www.nist.gov/time-distribution/radio-station-wwvb/wwvb-station-outages). Upgrades are expected to be complete by March 31, 2021. As I write this (at 19:50 UTC on 14-Mar-2021), WWVB is off-the-air. They were on earlier this morning and afternoon. I believe Colorado received a substantial snowstorm over the past day or so as well... 73 de John, KD2BD ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB Disciplined Oscillator
That's an interesting document, thanks for the link. For what it's worth, despite the changes to WWWB there is at least one Spectracom 8164 still running as originally intended, well, sort of:-) I have an 8164 in the UK that will run quite happily from MSF, although I must admit to keeping it more for nostalgic reasons these days just because I like it:-) John Ackermann has some interesting observations on the 8164. https://www.febo.com/time-freq/wwvb/spectracom/index.html https://www.febo.com/time-freq/wwvb/spectracom/efc.html Nigel GM8PZR Perhaps this has been mention before, but I found the following documentwhile researching some details on WWVB and thought it might interest the group: https://www.kevincroissant.com/WWVB/WWVB_PTTI_2018.pdf I know that Spectracom once made a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator in the form of the Model 8164, but I figured that this approach probably was obsolete in the era of GPS and network-based time. However, the author seems to have produced some interesting results. Has anyone else built, or tried to build a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator? Wayne ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Microsecond WWVB-Disciplined Rubidium Oscillator
Hi all, This is my first post to time-nuts, though I've been following the list for a few years now. I've been reading the WWVB discussion over the past couple days and keeping up as best as I can, and wanted to mention that I presented at ION PTTI 2018 about microsecond level WWVB. I also include some details about my hardware setup and signal processing stuff in the paper and presentation. We're working on another paper now that will be out soon, hopefully. Presentation: http://www.kevincroissant.com/WWVB/WWVB_PTTI_2018.pdf Paper: http://www.kevincroissant.com/WWVB/WWVB_PTTI_2018_paper.pdf I haven't worked on WWVB too much recently, as I've been preoccupied by our Cubesat project for measuring GNSS Interconstellation Timing Biases -- that's another cool project that hopefully I get to share with you guys someday soon. I'll do my best to answer any questions, though this is the week before final exams for me, so I am a little busy. Best, Kevin Croissant Undergraduate Researcher Avionics Engineering Center, Ohio University ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Disciplined Oscillator
Not personally, but in the UK a company called Quarztlock made both MSF (similar to WWVB) and 198kHz (a frequency-standard broadcast station) that were popular frequency standards in labs. They still exist but have replaced those products with Rubidium and GPS based standards. http://www.quartzlock.com/ On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 1:00 AM Wayne Holder wrote: > Perhaps this has been mention before, but I found the following document > while researching some details on WWVB and thought it might interest the > group: > > https://www.kevincroissant.com/WWVB/WWVB_PTTI_2018.pdf > > I know that Spectracom once made a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator in the form > of the Model 8164, but I figured that this approach probably was obsolete > in the era of GPS and network-based time. However, the author seems to have > produced some interesting results. Has anyone else built, or tried to > build a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator? > > Wayne > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB converter
Here is what seems to be a circuit design to allow WWVB clock receivers work with the current signal format. 2012 WWVB Receiver Modification Modification makes homebrew receiver insensitive to WWVB's new biphase-shifted time code. http://www.maxmcarter.com/rubidium/2012_mod/ Donald Resor N6KAW ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB teensy BPSK early experiments
On 11/2/20 6:59 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote: Hello Time Nuts, I have a question - Has anyone been successful getting WWVB to decode using the example for DCF77 and making the changes for WWVB? Yes. Maybe you mean other than me? Chris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB remodulator build.
Looks like another wwvb remodulator has been built and a very nice writeup by Doug. He also writes up issues of LED light interference and approaches to solving that. Nice. Link here https://wa3dsp.org/spectracom_8170 The remodulator is a very simple way to make those old wwvb clocks work. It is a hardware type solution and pretty simple. Good luck Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB Signal Generator
I thought I would search in a different way for a WWVB signal generator design. I found this item. While the designer explains it isn't as accurate as WWVB it may be another starting point. http://www.tauntek.com/wwvbgen-low-cost-wwvb-time-signal-generator.htm Donald R. Resor Jr. T. W. & T. C. Svc. Co. http://hammondorganservice.com Hammond USA warranty service "Most people don't have a sense of humor. They think they do, but they don't." --Jonathan Winters ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB Translation
For those still interested in GPS to WWVB simulation -- after trying a few antenna designs I found that a 50-foot loop of #26 enameled wire stapled to the rafters in the basement works quite well. Putting 35 ma (rms) of 60 kHz WWVB signal through it lights up the house quite nicely. I don't know yet if it also lights up the neighbor's house. I think I will investigate that question when (and if) they pull the plug in Colorado. But I am prepared. Not so much for my La Crosse Technology WWVB BPSK clock. I think it will get swamped out. Can't have everything, I guess. Andy Backus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Disciplined Oscillator
Hi The gotcha with WWVB is correcting for the day / night ionosphere issues. Since they are not 100% predictable, it’s not a real easy problem to solve. Toss on top of the the ambiguous status of WWV or WWVB ( = will it be there next year …. if so in what format ….) there layers and layers. Best guess is that WWVB at a “one day” sort of range is a 10 ppt sort of thing. At the same observation time, GPS is a < 0.1 ppt sort of thing. If the objective is accuracy … WWVB come in a bit far back …. Bob > On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:27 PM, Wayne Holder wrote: > > Perhaps this has been mention before, but I found the following document > while researching some details on WWVB and thought it might interest the > group: > > https://www.kevincroissant.com/WWVB/WWVB_PTTI_2018.pdf > > I know that Spectracom once made a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator in the form > of the Model 8164, but I figured that this approach probably was obsolete > in the era of GPS and network-based time. However, the author seems to have > produced some interesting results. Has anyone else built, or tried to > build a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator? > > Wayne > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] More ES100 / WWVB BPSK chips
Mike, The BPSK format enhancement applies only to 60 kHz WWVB, not the short-wave WWV in CO or WWVH in HI. /tvb On 9/20/2020 3:48 AM, Mike Feher wrote: Hi Tom - I wonder if WWVH is also sending in the new format for you guys on the west coast, although you guys are closer to WWVB than I am, and the La Crosse just works great. Regards - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell NJ 07731 848-245-9115 -Original Message- From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2020 4:16 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] More ES100 / WWVB BPSK chips There were couple WWVB threads recently. One of the questions was if the La Crosse UltrAtomic 404-1235UA-SS wall clock is still the only WWVB clock that uses the new BPSK format. I learned that 3 different companies made prototypes but only La Crosse went to market. So at this point the 1235UA is the only commercial clock using the new eWWVB format. Everyone who has one reports superb reception quality, far better than traditional WWVB clocks. Another question was where to get the bare Everset ES100 chip or dev boards. The original Universal Solder PCB with ES100 has been out of stock a long time. It's the one seen at <http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/es100/pins.htm> http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/es100/pins.htm The good news is that Universal Solder just announced a newly designed board: <https://www.universal-solder.ca/everset-es100> https://www.universal-solder.ca/everset-es100 Your choice of bare 12 x 16 mm board or a full Arduino-based dev kit: <https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-phase-m odulation-receiver-module/> https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-phase-mo dulation-receiver-module/ <https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/canaduino-application-development-k it-with-everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-atomic-clock-receiver-module/> https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/canaduino-application-development-ki t-with-everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-atomic-clock-receiver-module/ /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] new WWVB BPSK dev board
Moin, On Mon, 3 Dec 2018 18:11:30 -0800 "Tom Van Baak" wrote: > At long last, a complete WWVB 60 kHz BPSK dev board is available: > > https://universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-cob-wwvb-60khz-bpsk-receiver-kit-with-2-antennas/ > > Note it includes the antenna(s). Also has links to documentation. As this is becoming a topic again, and the EverSet people still claim that the BPSK modulation of WWVB makes it more resilient to jamming and easier to receive, I would like to restate what I've written some years ago [1,2]: BPSK by itself does not improve timing. At most it improves reception by having a constant power envelope. But in case of WWVB, where the AM modulation is still kept, this is not the case. The phase changes do not help reception at all. In order to help reception, one needs to send a _known_ bit string in order for a corrolator in the receiver to pick the signal out of the noise. The only known bits in the BPSK signal are the first 12 bits of each minute. Compare this to DCF77 which encodes 512 bits every _second_. Ie while DCF77 gets something like 10-20dB easier to pick out of noise, but when using BPSK, WWVB gets... uhmm.. zero improvement. All the BPSK modulation of WWVB does is 1) Make the signal unusable for any carrier phase tracking receiver 2) Add a second type of bit stream onto the signal for additional information to be encoded 3) Generate a revenue stream for companies who sell new WWVB receivers. For more information, read [2] Attila Kinali [1] https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2013-July/060456.html [2] https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2013-July/060471.html -- The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates throw DARK chocolate at you. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB BPSK Atomic Clock Receiver Modules
Universal Solder has a Valentines day sale this weekend for up to 20% for members. They sell the WWVB BPSK Atomic Clock Receiver Modules and accessories for those interested. https://www.universal-solder.ca/ Cheers ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] La Crosse Clocks -
As far as I know the only Ultra is still the original model 1235UA stainless steel 12h analog wall clock. [1] There are plenty of 24h WWVB clocks around but they all use the legacy AM WWVB format. Since you live in NJ I can understand why you want to use the new BPSK WWVB format. So here's an Arduino idea for you... Use a ES100 board [2] to receive the real BPSK WWVB and then generate a fake AM WWVB signal for the 24h clock to receive. That way you get the enhanced reception of the new format and the wide clock selection of the old format. /tvb [1] http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/ [2] https://www.universal-solder.ca On 12/26/2020 8:52 AM, Mike Feher wrote: Are any of you aware of any La Crosse Ultra Atomic clocks with a 24 hour format? Hope all had a great Christmas. Regards - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell NJ 07731 848-245-9115 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] More ES100 / WWVB BPSK chips
Hi Tom - I wonder if WWVH is also sending in the new format for you guys on the west coast, although you guys are closer to WWVB than I am, and the La Crosse just works great. Regards - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell NJ 07731 848-245-9115 -Original Message- From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2020 4:16 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] More ES100 / WWVB BPSK chips There were couple WWVB threads recently. One of the questions was if the La Crosse UltrAtomic 404-1235UA-SS wall clock is still the only WWVB clock that uses the new BPSK format. I learned that 3 different companies made prototypes but only La Crosse went to market. So at this point the 1235UA is the only commercial clock using the new eWWVB format. Everyone who has one reports superb reception quality, far better than traditional WWVB clocks. Another question was where to get the bare Everset ES100 chip or dev boards. The original Universal Solder PCB with ES100 has been out of stock a long time. It's the one seen at <http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/es100/pins.htm> http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/es100/pins.htm The good news is that Universal Solder just announced a newly designed board: <https://www.universal-solder.ca/everset-es100> https://www.universal-solder.ca/everset-es100 Your choice of bare 12 x 16 mm board or a full Arduino-based dev kit: <https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-phase-m odulation-receiver-module/> https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-phase-mo dulation-receiver-module/ <https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/canaduino-application-development-k it-with-everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-atomic-clock-receiver-module/> https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/canaduino-application-development-ki t-with-everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-atomic-clock-receiver-module/ /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- <mailto:time-nuts@lists.febo.com> time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] OOPS on my wwv legal post
I was under the mistaken impression that WWV/WWVB had some type of direct line to NIST in Boulder. However, when I toured the facility in Fort Collins earlier this year, I learned otherwise. The signals and carriers are derived/synced from "ordinary" HP (possibly some more recent Symmetricom's) cesium beam atomic clocks. I wish I remembered the details, but I asked how they synced them with NIST. I believe the answer was that at one time they had some type of connection to Boulder, but now just use a GPS based solution. The WWV and WWVB stations in Fort Collins are old, and run on a fairly tight budget, with a very small (but dedicated) staff. They are not on the cutting edge of timekeeping technology. I'm not trying to imply that WWV/WWVB is "inaccurate", but there is nothing special there. Many of the participants on this list, if they were determined, could put out a signal every bit as accurate as WWV or WWVB, they just wouldn't be able to do it at the power levels (especially WWVB) that WWV and WWVB signals are transmitted at. The antenna's and transmitter's are some of the most impressive parts of the WWV / WWVB facilities. Regards, John P.S. I was also impressed with their backup generator, although I now can't remember if that only provided power for the WWVB station, or for both WWVB and WWV (they are separate facilities, although in easy walking distance of each other on the same property). On 8/29/2018 7:24 PM, Steve Allen wrote: On Wed 2018-08-29T19:49:59-0400 Bob kb8tq hath writ: A few more details about “traceability”. USNO is by statute the official source of time for the US. I suggest reading Matsakis, Levine, and Lombardi from this year's PTTI meeting. USNO and NIST are both legal sources for the US. The USNO site currently has a broken SSL cert, but the paper is also here https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323600621_Metrological_and_legal_traceability_of_time_signals -- Steve Allen WGS-84 (GPS) UCO/Lick Observatory--ISB 260 Natural Sciences II, Room 165 Lat +36.99855 1156 High Street Voice: +1 831 459 3046 Lng -122.06015 Santa Cruz, CA 95064 http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/ Hgt +250 m ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST
> I wonder if anybody will market a GPS-to-WWVB translator? > Dana You can find lots of these projects on the web: in the time-nuts archives, eevblog, hackaday, or sometimes completed multi-band kits (WWVB / DCF77 / JJY) on eBay. Search for a couple of words like signal wwvb simulator generator translator emulator transmitter An example of a well engineered product (no longer available?) is: https://unusualelectronics.co.uk/products/chronvertor/ An example of a quick hack (open source) is: https://hackaday.com/2014/03/22/build-your-own-radio-clock-transmitter/ There are dozens more. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWV, WWVB and Daylight Savings Time
Currently, getting Daylight Savings Time status is easy using WWV or WWVB since they have bits in the protocol marking status for the US, and in the case of WWVB, impending change. If both the HF and LF signals go away due to the proposed budget cuts, what is the next simplest way (for something like a microprocessor based clock) to get DST information? Neither NTP or GPS provide that information. I have seen some websites with DST information, but decoding HTTP seems a daunting task for a microprocessor clock. --- Graham == ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Petition to Maintain WWV, WWVH, WWVB
Is there more of it? What I see makes no reference to WWVB. Dana On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 1:10 PM Graham / KE9H wrote: > Here is the URL of a petition to maintain funding of WWV, WWVH, WWVB. > > Only currently at about 7 percent of the number required for a response > from White House. > > > https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/maintain-funding-nist-stations-wwv-wwvh > > --- Graham > > == > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Observations on how "Atomic" WWVB clocks set time
The Arcron Zeit clock does. It also has an RS-232 port. Lady Heather supports it (but calls it an Acron Zeit due to some typos in the original docs that I found and since there are maybe two people in the universe that still use them, I haven't had much motivation to fix that). At one time it was one of the most popular / capable WWVB clocks out there... I'd love to have one. - > BTW, has anyone ever seen a WWVB-based clock that displays the year? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the list have built these units. Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a schmitt trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal back down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range. Ray, AB7HE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8161 "Standard Frequency Receiver - Oscillator" for WWVB (and question...)
> On a WWVB setup you get 10âs of us ( yes microseconds) of movement at > sunrise and sunset. You get as much as 10us between day and night. Somehow, I was thinking that WWVB was ground wave and wouldn't be effected by changes in the height of the ionosphere. Am I totally out of it, or is 10s of uSec just a lot better than the day/night shift you get with WWV? -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] More ES100 / WWVB BPSK chips
Thanks Tom, I forgot WWVH was HF only. - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell NJ 07731 848-245-9115 -Original Message- From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2020 7:06 AM To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] More ES100 / WWVB BPSK chips Mike, The BPSK format enhancement applies only to 60 kHz WWVB, not the short-wave WWV in CO or WWVH in HI. /tvb On 9/20/2020 3:48 AM, Mike Feher wrote: > Hi Tom - > > > > I wonder if WWVH is also sending in the new format for you guys on the > west coast, although you guys are closer to WWVB than I am, and the La > Crosse just works great. Regards - Mike > > > > Mike B. Feher, N4FS > > 89 Arnold Blvd. > > Howell NJ 07731 > > 848-245-9115 > > > > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Tom > Van Baak > Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2020 4:16 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Subject: [time-nuts] More ES100 / WWVB BPSK chips > > > > There were couple WWVB threads recently. > > > > One of the questions was if the La Crosse UltrAtomic 404-1235UA-SS > wall clock is still the only WWVB clock that uses the new BPSK format. > I learned that 3 different companies made prototypes but only La > Crosse went to market. So at this point the 1235UA is the only > commercial clock using the new eWWVB format. Everyone who has one > reports superb reception quality, far better than traditional WWVB clocks. > > > > Another question was where to get the bare Everset ES100 chip or dev boards. > The original Universal Solder PCB with ES100 has been out of stock a > long time. It's the one seen at > <http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/es100/pins.htm> > http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/es100/pins.htm > > > > The good news is that Universal Solder just announced a newly designed > > board: > > > > <https://www.universal-solder.ca/everset-es100> > https://www.universal-solder.ca/everset-es100 > > > > Your choice of bare 12 x 16 mm board or a full Arduino-based dev kit: > > > > > <https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-p > hase-m > odulation-receiver-module/> > https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-ph > ase-mo > dulation-receiver-module/ > > > > > <https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/canaduino-application-develop > ment-k > it-with-everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-atomic-clock-receiver-module/> > https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/canaduino-application-developm > ent-ki > t-with-everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-atomic-clock-receiver-module/ > > > > /tvb > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB SDR discussion
I'm seeing more than 100mV p-p right now (7:09 PM) (2309 UTC) on the output of my preamp from the east coast of New Jersey, 1622 miles east of WWVB. During my early days of WWVB experimenting, I found the signal is easier to spot (since it's buried in noise) if the scope's horizontal sweep is externally triggered by a stable and variable oscillator running at some sub-multiple of 60 kHz. The sweep generator in my Tek 465 was just too unstable and difficult to control, otherwise. 73.000 de John, KD2BD ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] For those following ES100 WWVB receiver modules
The generic WWVB receivers in radio-controlled clocks are essentially TRF receivers using a 60kHz crystal as the tuned element. David N1HAC On 7/22/20 2:26 PM, Hal Murray wrote: tsho...@gmail.com said: I myself did some experimenting with a tuned loop antenna through a 60 kHz crystal bandpass hooked to a ... What is the bandwidth of the WWVB signal? What is the bandwidth of a crystal filter? (or probably, what are my choices, and what do I get if I use a low cost crystal?) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] local WWVB ?
Hi Folks, I always like your discussions! Now I'd like to ask a question. Has anyone designed and/or sold a "WWVB repeater" device? I can picture a Raspberry Pi which had software to get NTP data or GPS-referenced time, and a small 60 kHz transmitter, which would send the proper WWVB timecode data to the several "atomic clocks" I have around the house. If not, I'll look into coding something for the Pi or maybe a M5Stack platform. Cheers, Larry ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB and Chronverter update
Hello to the group. Had sometime to hook up the chronverter wwvb simulator. Numbers of details. The software and operation are clear. Everything is easy to setup. Bad news. Though the system when set to wwvb puts out a signal on 60Khz its on off keying. WWVBs signal is reduced carrier by some 14db. As such any of the WWVB clocks of quality/phase tracking do not lock and do not decode. I have not tried the cheap clocks yet that I suspect will work. The actual carrier out is a healthy 0 dbm. Some issues with commands and the system seeming to lock up requiring power cycles. With respect to the carrier. The chronverter is elegant in the fact that it can generate the 60 KHz frequency and other LF signals. But I will need to add an external 6 MHz oscillator divider and modulator if I want to use it with the good receivers. Adds power and complexity. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Cal standards, WWVB, etc. was Re: WWV and legal issues
On 8/30/18 8:15 AM, Mike Bafaro wrote: According to what I have heard the 60KHz WWVB carrier is guaranteed accurate to the atomic standard and is considered traceable. I remember when I was in the Navy years ago I remember taking our unit's HP5245L for calibration and they used a VLF tracking receiver at 60KHz to do the calibration. If WWVB goes off the air what is the replacement for the 60KHz standard? Mike The 5245L is a 1960,70s vintage thing so I assume you were doing those cals 40 years ago when inexpensive atomic standards like the SRS FS725 didn't exist. These days, I suspect that a $3000 Rb box or a GPSDO would have sufficient accuracy for this sort of thing as a transfer standard, and would be traceable. I can't imagine that a "over the air" signal recovered from WWVB would be better than either of those two. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] new WWVB BPSK dev board
At long last, a complete WWVB 60 kHz BPSK dev board is available: https://universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-cob-wwvb-60khz-bpsk-receiver-kit-with-2-antennas/ Note it includes the antenna(s). Also has links to documentation. It would be very nice if a bunch of time nuts around the country played with these and reported results. Prior to this, the only device that you could buy which used the enhanced WWVB format was the La Crosse 404-1235UA-SS UltrAtomic clock. It was not developer friendly, so a dev board with the Everset ES100 chip is good news. The maker / hacker / Arduino crowd may enjoy a fresh source of accurate time; something independent of GPS or NTP. Some technical postings about reception quality, acquisition speed, and timing precision would be most welcome. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
Hi A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the incoming WWVB signal……. Bob > On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM, > wrote: > > I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is > eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the > list have built these units. > > Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a schmitt > trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal back > down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB > signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and > somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range. > > Ray, > AB7HE > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FS: Spectracom 8161 "Standard Frequency Receiver - Oscillator" for WWVB (and question...)
Magnus, Thanks for the manual pointer! A quick scan doesn't offer me much insight to what the mod might be for (likely have to open it up as you suggest). The basic unit gives you the option of phase-locking the internal standard osc to WWVB with an output at .1, 1, 5, or 10 MHz , and you can compare either the internal or an external oscillator to WWVB and chart the results over a variable time period. Given the time-nuts mailing list audience my guess is that in practice it would likely be used with an external reference source to monitor WWVB deviations, instead of the other way around... It was fun to see the effect of the "sun flares" noise on the sample chart recordings in the manual! Kirk Bailey bai...@peak.org ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions
On 7/22/2020 7:35 AM, Rodger via time-nuts wrote: Hey Ray, Paul and I have a nice piece of code that generates the WWVB BPSK bit stream using an Arduino and a ublox GPS module. (total cost under $30) You could use this as a WWVB emulator while you're working on your code. Sorry, I can't really help with your question about demodulating the WWVB BPSK but the Costas loop sounds like the way to go. Rodger A long time ago, I built a demodulator for some weather satellite that used BPSK that used a Costas loop driving a VCXO. I had never built a Costas loop before, but I have to say that it was quite straightforward and it totally worked as advertised. The loop requires an analog multiplier, and I didn't have much trouble sourcing it. Fast forward to today, and the same small number of multipliers are still available, they just cost a lot. For 60 kHz, of course, you will want to divide down a VCXO that is at a reasonable frequency for such. Rick N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB BPSK Atomic Clock Receiver Modules
They reduced the price by 20% but they want $19.40 for shipping. I decided I didn't need the development kit. I ordered one of the AM WWVB kits back in early Nov and the shipping charge was only $4.50. Original Message Subject: [time-nuts] WWVB BPSK Atomic Clock Receiver Modules From: Bryan _ Date: Fri, February 12, 2021 7:07 pm To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Universal Solder has a Valentines day sale this weekend for up to 20% for members. They sell the WWVB BPSK Atomic Clock Receiver Modules and accessories for those interested. https://www.universal-solder.ca/ Cheers ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: local WWVB ?
When there was talk a few years ago about this service going away I found this alternative: https://www.anishathalye.com/2016/12/26/micro-wwvb/ -- Sent with Tutanota, the secure & ad-free mailbox. Dec 10, 2021, 15:54 by lawrence.bra...@gmail.com: > Hi Folks, > > > > I always like your discussions! Now I'd like to ask a question. > > > > Has anyone designed and/or sold a "WWVB repeater" device? I can picture a > Raspberry Pi which had software to get NTP data or GPS-referenced time, and > a small 60 kHz transmitter, which would send the proper WWVB timecode data > to the several "atomic clocks" I have around the house. > > > > If not, I'll look into coding something for the Pi or maybe a M5Stack > platform. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an > email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] ES100 Back in Stock
Just a heads-up. Universal Solder has two different ES100 devices back in stock. https://universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-cob-wwvb-60khz-bpsk-receiver-kit-with-2-antennas/ https://universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-adk-v2-wwvb-bpsk-phase-modulation-receiver/ -Pat (KG5YPQ) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] For those following ES100 WWVB receiver modules
tsho...@gmail.com said: > I myself did some experimenting with a tuned loop antenna through a 60 kHz > crystal bandpass hooked to a ... What is the bandwidth of the WWVB signal? What is the bandwidth of a crystal filter? (or probably, what are my choices, and what do I get if I use a low cost crystal?) -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB BPSK Receiver -- Black Friday Sale
FYI -- Universal Solder (https://www.universal-solder.ca) has theApplication Development Kit for EverSet ES100-MOD WWVB receiver on sale Nov 27/28 for 25% off = CDN$66.75 = US$51.34 shipping included. Note that this price is only good for 2 days. 73 de Tom K3IO -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] ES100 Atomic Clock Receiver Back in Stock
Good morning all, Universal Solder is showing the ES-100 WWVB BPSK clock kits back in stock. Just put me one on order. :) <https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/canaduino-application-development-kit-with-everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-atomic-clock-receiver-module/> Thanks much and 73, ben, kd5byb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Fwd: Re: local WWVB ?
Forwarded Message Subject:Re: [time-nuts] Re: local WWVB ? Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 09:57:49 -0800 From: Alex Pummer To: Attila Kinali Hi Attila, actually there are some repeaters, which do not generate their own carrier, but just receive and amplifying re-radiate the wwvb signal with different polarization, and since the amplified and radiated signal is phase coherent with the original it is not a "newly generated" one. Also if you -- like in many application using that underneath the earth surface -- you could re-radiate the magnetic component only with a loop, and since the length of the loop will be most likely much shorter, than a 1/4 wave length the current along the loop will be constant. To be able to couple to the loop you need to set the receiver's ferrite antenna vertically. That magnetic radiation of the loop will not interfere with the original -- horizontally polarized -- wwvb and outside of the loop the strength of the field will drop very fast, at 1/3 of the loop's radial outside of the loop the field strength is at list 50dB down. Thus, the same loop could work with a Raspberry Pi transmitter without causing any interference or get noticed from anybody outside of the loop Greetings Alex On 12/11/2021 5:43 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 15:54:55 -0500 "Lawrence Brandt" wrote: Has anyone designed and/or sold a "WWVB repeater" device? I can picture a Raspberry Pi which had software to get NTP data or GPS-referenced time, and a small 60 kHz transmitter, which would send the proper WWVB timecode data to the several "atomic clocks" I have around the house. Today, with all the non-licensed wireless stuff we have as gadgets, it doesn't seem to be as obvious as it once was, but: Transmitting on a frequency you don't have the explicit license for is forbidden. And there are some quite hefty fines for that. Especially transmitting on a widely used frequency of an infrastructure service like WWVB might not be looked kindly upon. If you want to lock WWVB clocks that are placed somewhere, where the reception is not good enough. Then you should inject the signal directly into the clock. This way you avoid transmitting. Alternatively, replace the electronics with some 802.15.4 system (e.g., 6LowPan) and distribute time in this network. There are plenty of developer boards available for this kind of stuff, just check adafruit and sparkfun. Attila Kinali -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWV/WWVB in NTP surveys
Hi, There are LF receivers available commercially today. See links below for one vendor. https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/products/pci-express-dcf77-clock.htm and even an USB version for the NIST signal. https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/products/usb-wwvb-clock.htm And there seems to be options for wwvb reception also in 1u 19” format. https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/products/rack-mount-1u-ntp-server.htm /Björn Sent from my iPhone > On 2 Sep 2018, at 15:48, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Some stats in historic NTP surveys show that WWV and WWVB based refclocks > were relevant 20+ years ago: > > 1997 - Mills survey - 47 GPS and GOES vs 74 WWV and WWVB. > > 1999 - Minar MIT survey - 129 GPS and GOES vs 24 WWV and WWVB. > > In those two years it is pretty obvious the world was swinging from LF and > HF refclocks to satellite based refclocks (and also obvious that GOES was > declining while GPS was on the upswing.) > > As recently as 10 years ago I was running a WWV-based Stratum 1 - it's > there in the 2005 Brazillian NTP survey data. > > It would be much easier to make a case for continuing WWV service if there > were commercial WWV based refclocks on the market and used in > commercial/government applications. 10 years ago I could find WWV time > clocks in industrial automation catalogs but today, nothing. I'm sure > there's some installed base. > > Tim N3QE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] new WWVB BPSK dev board
Thanks for the heads up Tom! I ordered one and if it comes before the end of the year I may have some time over the holidays to do acquisition test from Maryland and maybe some cross-comparison with GPS PPS. Here in Maryland I have somewhat unreliable reception on commercial non-BPSK WWVB clocks at my house. My Casio Waveceptor watch is 99%+ reliable when I'm asleep on the 2nd floor but much less likely to work in the basement. I can reliably hear the amplitude-keyed WWVB carrier on a LF receiver with a homebrew loop (about 3 foot by 3 foot) in the evenings but it takes some imagination to think I can hear it during the daytime. Tim N3QE On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 9:12 PM Tom Van Baak wrote: > At long last, a complete WWVB 60 kHz BPSK dev board is available: > > > https://universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-cob-wwvb-60khz-bpsk-receiver-kit-with-2-antennas/ > > Note it includes the antenna(s). Also has links to documentation. > > It would be very nice if a bunch of time nuts around the country played > with these and reported results. > > Prior to this, the only device that you could buy which used the enhanced > WWVB format was the La Crosse 404-1235UA-SS UltrAtomic clock. It was not > developer friendly, so a dev board with the Everset ES100 chip is good news. > > The maker / hacker / Arduino crowd may enjoy a fresh source of accurate > time; something independent of GPS or NTP. Some technical postings about > reception quality, acquisition speed, and timing precision would be most > welcome. > > /tvb > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Disciplined Oscillator
Wayne, there was a superb 2015 QEX article by KD2BD on his WWVB disciplined frequency standard. Full article is online here: http://www.arrl.org/files/file/QEX_Next_Issue/2015/Nov-Dec_2015/Magliacane.pdf As a frequency standard I have no major disagreement with the PTTI article. But the 100 microsecond number they give for absolute time transfer seems to be based entirely on propagation characteristics and ignores the difficulty I've always had in resolving the mushy edge of the timecode pulses. 100 microseconds implies a system bandwidth of 10kHz, which is pointless because the transmitter antenna bandwidth has to be quite narrow - hundreds of Hz if not less. Tim N3QE On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 8:00 PM Wayne Holder wrote: > Perhaps this has been mention before, but I found the following document > while researching some details on WWVB and thought it might interest the > group: > > https://www.kevincroissant.com/WWVB/WWVB_PTTI_2018.pdf > > I know that Spectracom once made a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator in the form > of the Model 8164, but I figured that this approach probably was obsolete > in the era of GPS and network-based time. However, the author seems to have > produced some interesting results. Has anyone else built, or tried to > build a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator? > > Wayne > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Disciplined Oscillator
Hi After the passing of Clive Green HCD Research has taken over the Quartzlock business mid 2016 Regards Bernd DK1AG > Not personally, but in the UK a company called Quarztlock made both MSF (similar to WWVB) and 198kHz (a frequency-standard broadcast station) that were popular frequency standards in labs. > They still exist but have replaced those products with Rubidium and GPS based standards. > http://www.quartzlock.com/ On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 1:00 AM Wayne Holder wrote: > Perhaps this has been mention before, but I found the following > document while researching some details on WWVB and thought it might > interest the > group: > > https://www.kevincroissant.com/WWVB/WWVB_PTTI_2018.pdf > > I know that Spectracom once made a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator in the > form of the Model 8164, but I figured that this approach probably was > obsolete in the era of GPS and network-based time. However, the author > seems to have produced some interesting results. Has anyone else > built, or tried to build a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator? > > Wayne > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go > to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] ES100 WWVB clock notes
After some initial evaluation in December last year, I've done some more work and prototyping with the ES100 WWVB chip+board from Universal Solder in various clock applications. Most of my work uses an Arduino Nano for processing. What I like is that the ES100 puts out data in UTC, which is a little ironic because historically most consumer WWVB clock chips only display in North American time zones and cannot be set to UTC. Some of my playing around includes working on a bench with switching power supplies and/or using multiplexed LED display modules. It's no surprise - the ES100 vendor's notes make it perfectly clear that these are sources of interference - that having a switching power near the WWVB antennas, or having a multiplexed LED display within a foot of the WWVB antennas. I'm not sure any of you made "calculator music" with 8-digit LED calculators placed next to an AM radio in the 1970's, but the multiplexed LED displays are raucous sources of near-field noise. I can confirm that the popular 8-digit 7-segment displays modules driven by MAX7219 chips produce this same kind of noise. A piece of good news, is that as long as I keep the ES100 ferrite loop antennas a foot or more away from these noise sources, they seem to work fine. I am actually observing very good daylight sensitivity here in Maryland, to the WWVB signal from Colorado. My big clock project this summer is a ES100 clock using 4" high 7-segment LED displays (driven by TPIC6C595 so not multiplexed), housed in a wooden painted case inspired by the GOES Bicentennial Clock pictured here: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-satellite-clock-built-for-the-U-S-Bicentennial-in-1976_fig6_241637745 Tim N3QE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] More ES100 / WWVB BPSK chips
Thanks Tom! John On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 1:19 AM Tom Van Baak wrote: > There were couple WWVB threads recently. > > One of the questions was if the La Crosse UltrAtomic 404-1235UA-SS wall > clock is still the only WWVB clock that uses the new BPSK format. I > learned that 3 different companies made prototypes but only La Crosse > went to market. So at this point the 1235UA is the only commercial clock > using the new eWWVB format. Everyone who has one reports superb > reception quality, far better than traditional WWVB clocks. > > Another question was where to get the bare Everset ES100 chip or dev > boards. The original Universal Solder PCB with ES100 has been out of > stock a long time. It's the one seen at > http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/es100/pins.htm > > The good news is that Universal Solder just announced a newly designed > board: > > https://www.universal-solder.ca/everset-es100 > > Your choice of bare 12 x 16 mm board or a full Arduino-based dev kit: > > > https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-phase-modulation-receiver-module/ > > > https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/canaduino-application-development-kit-with-everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-atomic-clock-receiver-module/ > > /tvb > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] More ES100 / WWVB BPSK chips
There were couple WWVB threads recently. One of the questions was if the La Crosse UltrAtomic 404-1235UA-SS wall clock is still the only WWVB clock that uses the new BPSK format. I learned that 3 different companies made prototypes but only La Crosse went to market. So at this point the 1235UA is the only commercial clock using the new eWWVB format. Everyone who has one reports superb reception quality, far better than traditional WWVB clocks. Another question was where to get the bare Everset ES100 chip or dev boards. The original Universal Solder PCB with ES100 has been out of stock a long time. It's the one seen at http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/es100/pins.htm The good news is that Universal Solder just announced a newly designed board: https://www.universal-solder.ca/everset-es100 Your choice of bare 12 x 16 mm board or a full Arduino-based dev kit: https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-phase-modulation-receiver-module/ https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/canaduino-application-development-kit-with-everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-atomic-clock-receiver-module/ /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: NOS Citizen Satellite Wave watch is excess to my needs
I don't know if this post will work, but there is a simpler and cheaper way to put time on your wrist. A Casio Waveceptor Atomic Watch receives WWVB time from Fort Collins and Rugby, England each night. It switches to and from DST automatically and is generally accurate to within 1/10 second. The battery is specified to last for 2 years, but both of my watches have gone much longer. The Waveceptor watches are available at https://www.casio.com/products/watches/wave-ceptor starting at USD$39.95 Waveceptor Manual https://support.casio.com/storage/en/manual/pdf/EN/009/qw3054.pdf WWVB Coverage Area https://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvbcoverage.htm Fort Collins, Colorado 60 KHz time signal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB Rugby, England 60 KHz time signal "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_from_NPL_(MSF)" JJY in Japan also transmits on 60 KHz with a similar format to WWVB, but I don't know if the Waveceptor will receive it. It is not in the Waveceptor City Code. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JJY There are 683 posts that refer to WWVB in the time-nuts archives. You can read them here: "https://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=wwvb=time-nuts%40lists.febo.com; Mike ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: NOS Citizen Satellite Wave watch is excess to my needs
I have to echo Mike's comments. Been a WaveCeptor customer for a while, I own two. I have been watching the Citizen offering and I am intrigued by the offering, not sure the current budgetbwould allow the expense (recently retired). I have one unit thT MUST BE ABOUT 12 YEARS OLD NOW AND THE BATTERY IS STILL HOLDING ON, NOT SURE HOW MUCH LONGER THAT WILL BE THE CASE AND i MAY'VE JUST JINX'D it ;-) On Mon, 2021-09-13 at 18:19 -0400, Mike Monett wrote: > I don't know if this post will work, but there is a simpler and > cheaper wayto put time on your wrist. > A Casio Waveceptor Atomic Watch receives WWVB time from Fort Collins > andRugby, England each night. It switches to and from DST > automatically and isgenerally accurate to within 1/10 second. The > battery is specified to lastfor 2 years, but both of my watches have > gone much longer. > The Waveceptor watches are available at > https://www.casio.com/products/watches/wave-ceptor > starting at USD$39.95 > Waveceptor Manual > https://support.casio.com/storage/en/manual/pdf/EN/009/qw3054.pdf > > WWVB Coverage Areahttps://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvbcoverage.htm > > Fort Collins, Colorado 60 KHz time signal > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB > > Rugby, England 60 KHz time signal" > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_from_NPL_(MSF)" > JJY in Japan also transmits on 60 KHz with a similar format to WWVB, > but Idon't know if the Waveceptor will receive it. It is not in the > WaveceptorCity Code. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JJY > > There are 683 posts that refer to WWVB in the time-nuts archives. You > canread them here: > " > https://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=wwvb=time-nuts%40lists.febo.com > " > Mike___time-nuts mailing > list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to > time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] new WWVB BPSK dev board
Hi Again to re-go over what has been said in the past: Unless they start filling the “extra” bits on the WWVB signal with something (are they doing this ) the whole modulation pattern is predictable. Once you know what time it is “now” what happens from then on can all be calculated. I believe TVB has already done this part of it. A “proper” receiver might take the AM and PM modulation signals and generate an “expected” signal from them once the time now is known. Correlating against that signal would seem to be the way to get this done. The one thing the Everest chips do indeed do is demonstrate that initial signal acquisition can be done under really awful conditions. Getting the same info off of WWVB with AM only …. not so much ….At least not so much with a receiver chip that is out on the market. Bob > On Dec 4, 2018, at 4:21 PM, Attila Kinali wrote: > > Moin, > > On Mon, 3 Dec 2018 18:11:30 -0800 > "Tom Van Baak" wrote: > >> At long last, a complete WWVB 60 kHz BPSK dev board is available: >> >> https://universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-cob-wwvb-60khz-bpsk-receiver-kit-with-2-antennas/ >> >> Note it includes the antenna(s). Also has links to documentation. > > > As this is becoming a topic again, and the EverSet people still > claim that the BPSK modulation of WWVB makes it more resilient > to jamming and easier to receive, I would like to restate > what I've written some years ago [1,2]: > > BPSK by itself does not improve timing. At most it improves reception > by having a constant power envelope. But in case of WWVB, where > the AM modulation is still kept, this is not the case. The phase > changes do not help reception at all. In order to help reception, > one needs to send a _known_ bit string in order for a corrolator > in the receiver to pick the signal out of the noise. The only > known bits in the BPSK signal are the first 12 bits of each minute. > Compare this to DCF77 which encodes 512 bits every _second_. > Ie while DCF77 gets something like 10-20dB easier to pick out > of noise, but when using BPSK, WWVB gets... uhmm.. zero improvement. > > All the BPSK modulation of WWVB does is > 1) Make the signal unusable for any carrier phase tracking receiver > 2) Add a second type of bit stream onto the signal for additional > information to be encoded > 3) Generate a revenue stream for companies who sell new WWVB receivers. > > For more information, read [2] > > Attila Kinali > > [1] https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2013-July/060456.html > [2] https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2013-July/060471.html > > > -- > The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates >throw DARK chocolate at you. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions
Ray, I'll answer your question as I've done this. The d-psk-r's intended use is to remove the bpsk from the WWVB carrier for the purpose of allowing older WWVB receivers to recover phase info from the carrier and it works very well for that purpose. But, it can also be used, as you are trying to do, to generate "something similar" to the WWVB BPSK signal by feeding it 60 khz and letting the mixer do the phase modulation. I've done it, and it works. But there would certainly be some differences between that signal and the "real" WWVB BPSK. For one, the real WWVB signal has phase coherence between the 60 khz and the timing of the phase flips. You won't get that with the d-psk-r as it's not necessary for it's intended purpose. Obviously WWVB also has the AM component too so that would be missing if using the d-psk-r to modulate a carrier. But depending on your intended use, I see no reason that using the d-psk-r as a "re-psk-r" shouldn't work just fine. If you're putting a sine wave in to the mixer on pin 8, you should be seeing a sine wave out on pin 1. It's as simple as that. And that sine wave should shift 180 degrees (invert polarity) if you flip the polarity of the bias on pins 10 and 15. If you don't have any DC bias on pins 10/15 I'm not sure how much signal would pass through the transformers though I don't think it would be much as neither pair of diodes would be conducting. Good luck, Rodger -Original Message- From: time-nuts On Behalf Of rcb...@atcelectronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 2:20 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions Paul, Yes, I built the d-psk-r per the schematic. However, I think I did not understand how it actually worked. I was expecting it to be able to duplicate the WWVB sine wave signal with the phase reversal present when the PM data bit changed from a 0 to 1 or 1 to 0. I have a 60 kHz sine wave going into pin 8 of the mixer transformer. I expected to see a sine wave out of pin 1. However, I looked at the code again and it appears the "LO" port of the mixer is only driven one per second. There is no steady drive to the "LO" port so there cannot be a sine wave out of the "IF" port. Is that correct? Or should there actually be a 60 kHz sine wave coming out of pin 1 on the mixer? If so, something is wrong with my d-psk-r. I am not trying to use it with any kind of receiver. I just want to see the sine wave on my scope. Ray, AB7HE Original Message Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions From: paul swed Date: Tue, August 18, 2020 12:19 pm To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Ray I would tend to agree but I actually am unclear on the context. Did you actually build a d-psk-r? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Disciplined Oscillator
Hi Wayne, Great to see you found my presentation! The paper is available here: https://www.kevincroissant.com/WWVB/WWVB_PTTI_2018_paper.pdf I traveled to CO and met with NIST people there and gathered more data then. We're planning to put out another paper soon (I'm finishing up my bachelor's right now so I'm a bit preoccupied though). I think LF timing is still very relevant in this day and age, and WWVB still shows promise as a national timing source. Let me know if you have any questions. Best, Kevin On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 10:00 PM paul swed wrote: > Wayne good read on the paper. > All of the spectracoms and such were rendered useless by the new BPSK > modulation. Though now that 5 years or so have passed not so new. Unless > the modulation is accounted for they can't track the carrier. There are > external modifications and other approaches that have been suggested. I > have design and tested numbers of them with a final approach using the > cheat'n d-psk-r. Won't go into that as its been shared here on time-nuts > enough. A lot depends on your location and signal strength. Clearly taking > advantage of the new modulation for carrier prediction has advantage. But > the fact is even I am now spoiled by GPSDOs. > I also built a far simplere approach called a remodulator for simply > allowing the spectracoms to get time. They are nice displays. Not sure you > can get even those piece parts any longer. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 8:00 PM Wayne Holder > wrote: > > > Perhaps this has been mention before, but I found the following document > > while researching some details on WWVB and thought it might interest the > > group: > > > > https://www.kevincroissant.com/WWVB/WWVB_PTTI_2018.pdf > > > > I know that Spectracom once made a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator in the > form > > of the Model 8164, but I figured that this approach probably was obsolete > > in the era of GPS and network-based time. However, the author seems to > have > > produced some interesting results. Has anyone else built, or tried to > > build a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator? > > > > Wayne > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > -- Kevin Croissant ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] More ES100 / WWVB BPSK chips
Thanks to Tom's heads-up, I ordered a new style ES100 set with breakout board from Universal Solder 13 days ago, and it arrived today. The pinout documentation zip package from Universal-Solder website, (which was mighty confusing to begin with), still seems to describe the original board. But the new pinout is right there on the silkscreening on the breakout board which very nicely plugs into 0.1" perfboard or solderless breadboard. Gave it a quick spin this afternoon, it locked up with WWVB from the East Coast USA in broad daylight, and I can report that the same Arduino code works fine with old board or new. Highly recommended! BUT Universal Solder says they are currently sold out, with "3500 modules in production and expected to be in stock on 10/23/2020." Tim N3QE On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 4:19 AM Tom Van Baak wrote: > There were couple WWVB threads recently. > > One of the questions was if the La Crosse UltrAtomic 404-1235UA-SS wall > clock is still the only WWVB clock that uses the new BPSK format. I > learned that 3 different companies made prototypes but only La Crosse > went to market. So at this point the 1235UA is the only commercial clock > using the new eWWVB format. Everyone who has one reports superb > reception quality, far better than traditional WWVB clocks. > > Another question was where to get the bare Everset ES100 chip or dev > boards. The original Universal Solder PCB with ES100 has been out of > stock a long time. It's the one seen at > http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/es100/pins.htm > > The good news is that Universal Solder just announced a newly designed > board: > > https://www.universal-solder.ca/everset-es100 > > Your choice of bare 12 x 16 mm board or a full Arduino-based dev kit: > > > https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-phase-modulation-receiver-module/ > > > https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/canaduino-application-development-kit-with-everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-atomic-clock-receiver-module/ > > /tvb > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions
Hey Ray, Paul and I have a nice piece of code that generates the WWVB BPSK bit stream using an Arduino and a ublox GPS module. (total cost under $30) You could use this as a WWVB emulator while you're working on your code. Sorry, I can't really help with your question about demodulating the WWVB BPSK but the Costas loop sounds like the way to go. It has also been suggested that a WWVB SDR wouldn't be too difficult to build and would open up lots of possibilities. Unfortunately, I don't have a clue where to begin with that. Maybe somebody with some SDR experience can chime in. Re your comment about $30 BPSK clocks. The only clock I'm aware of that uses the BPSK is the Lacrosse Ultratomic. Are you aware of any others? Thanks, Rodger -Original Message- From: time-nuts On Behalf Of rcb...@atcelectronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 11:52 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions Paul, thanks for the suggestions. The top of the minute is a good idea. Since the first second is part of the sync pattern it will always be 0 and the phase would be 0. A differential opamp with one input from WWVB and the other from the local source fed to the STM32 would tell if the signals were in phase. A single gate inverter controlled by the STM32 could be used to invert the local source if necessary. I have worked with the Bluepill for the last year on a few small projects. The most complex one (which isn't really complex) was to control two stepper motors. I really like the boards and you can't beat the prices. I don't use the bootloader so I have no experience with it. Dana, I looked at the Costas loop and had sort of ruled it out. I may take another look at it as I get further into the project. I will probably use a 15.360 MHz oscillator and divide by 256 to get the 60 kHz local source. Once I get the front end working I will be able to start some "real" testing. Suggestions from others are welcome. Ray, AB7HE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB BPSK Atomic Clock Receiver Modules
Hello, if anyone is interested, here is the source code for an NTP SHM driver for this hardware. Please note that I've only developed the code for the first generation hardware, although to my knowledge the spec sheet hasn't changed. https://github.com/fiorenzo1963/es100-wwvb-refclock -Original Message- From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Bryan _ Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2021 13:09 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB BPSK Atomic Clock Receiver Modules Shipping costs from Canada is horrendous, possibly what you ordered crossed the package/weight criteria for the cheaper shipping option -=Bryan=- From: time-nuts on behalf of rcb...@atcelectronics.com Sent: February 13, 2021 11:58 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB BPSK Atomic Clock Receiver Modules They reduced the price by 20% but they want $19.40 for shipping. I decided I didn't need the development kit. I ordered one of the AM WWVB kits back in early Nov and the shipping charge was only $4.50. Original Message Subject: [time-nuts] WWVB BPSK Atomic Clock Receiver Modules From: Bryan _ Date: Fri, February 12, 2021 7:07 pm To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Universal Solder has a Valentines day sale this weekend for up to 20% for members. They sell the WWVB BPSK Atomic Clock Receiver Modules and accessories for those interested. https://www.universal-solder.ca/ Cheers ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] OOPS on my wwv legal post
Since propagation issues quickly degrade both frequency stability and time accuracy, I see little point in worrying about the difference between UTC and UTC(NIST). Of greater interest should be the meaningfulness of time transfer obtained with NIST's TMAS service. It is apparently referred to UTC(NIST). See: https://www.nist.gov/programs-projects/time-measurement-and-analysis-service-tmas It's an interesting service; it has been in use at the Arecibo Observatory since soon after its inception (~5 years ago IIRC) to provide information relevant to decisions for tweaking the observatory's H-maser's frequency. TMAS revolves around "Common View GPS measurements". A major down side (for most time-nuts, anyway) is the cost of the service, which is presently in the neighborhood of $10k per year. I have made inquiry regarding whether or not TMAS is also on the chopping block; nothing heard back so far. Dana Dana On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:05 AM John Marvin wrote: > I was under the mistaken impression that WWV/WWVB had some type of > direct line to NIST in Boulder. However, when I toured the facility in > Fort Collins earlier this year, I learned otherwise. The signals and > carriers are derived/synced from "ordinary" HP (possibly some more > recent Symmetricom's) cesium beam atomic clocks. I wish I remembered > the details, but I asked how they synced them with NIST. I believe the > answer was that at one time they had some type of connection to Boulder, > but now just use a GPS based solution. > > The WWV and WWVB stations in Fort Collins are old, and run on a fairly > tight budget, with a very small (but dedicated) staff. They are not on > the cutting edge of timekeeping technology. I'm not trying to imply > that WWV/WWVB is "inaccurate", but there is nothing special there. Many > of the participants on this list, if they were determined, could put out > a signal every bit as accurate as WWV or WWVB, they just wouldn't be > able to do it at the power levels (especially WWVB) that WWV and WWVB > signals are transmitted at. The antenna's and transmitter's are some of > the most impressive parts of the WWV / WWVB facilities. > > Regards, > > John > > P.S. I was also impressed with their backup generator, although I now > can't remember if that only provided power for the WWVB station, or for > both WWVB and WWV (they are separate facilities, although in easy > walking distance of each other on the same property). > > > On 8/29/2018 7:24 PM, Steve Allen wrote: > > On Wed 2018-08-29T19:49:59-0400 Bob kb8tq hath writ: > >> A few more details about “traceability”. USNO is by statute the > official source of time for the US. > > I suggest reading Matsakis, Levine, and Lombardi from this year's PTTI > meeting. > > USNO and NIST are both legal sources for the US. > > The USNO site currently has a broken SSL cert, but the paper is also here > > > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323600621_Metrological_and_legal_traceability_of_time_signals > > > > -- > > Steve Allen WGS-84 > (GPS) > > UCO/Lick Observatory--ISB 260 Natural Sciences II, Room 165 Lat > +36.99855 > > 1156 High Street Voice: +1 831 459 3046 Lng > -122.06015 > > Santa Cruz, CA 95064 http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/ Hgt +250 m > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST
From: Craig Kirkpatrick I do like the idea of a GPS to WWVB timecode radio transmitter. I think that would sell well to folks on the fringe of coverage for WWVB such as Florida, Hawaii, and Alaska or other parts of the globe. I’ve found the real limitation to reception of WWVB is local 60kHz noise in the home. For instance if I have a fan running to cool things in my shack then my WWVB clocks will not sync successfully. I hope Nick Sayer is reading this and getting the idea to make a GPS to WWVB timecode radio transmitter, clever gent that he is. :-) Best Wishes, Craig KI7CRA === What would be very useful would be if the design could also emulate the UK MSF transmissions at 60 kHz (simple on/off coding) and perhaps the DCF77 transmissions at 77.5 kHz. One issue (at least with the UK 198 kHz transmitter) is the unobtainability of spares such as the high-power valves, I understand. You're right that many devices rely on these LF transmissions, but so do many FM radios rely on analogue transmissions which are going, if not already partially gone, in Europe. Thanks, David GM8ARV -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk Twitter: @gm8arv ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Signal Generator
This guy has what looks like a well thought out design using a Sirf-Based GPS and ATTiny44A chip to generate a signal to update his watch: https://www.anishathalye.com/2016/12/26/micro-wwvb/ Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have published a schematic or his source code. But, he covers enough detail that I think it wouldn't be too hard to replicate what he's done. Or, perhaps he would disclose these details if contacted. Wayne On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 4:33 AM, D. Resor wrote: > I thought I would search in a different way for a WWVB signal generator > design. I found this item. While the designer explains it isn't as > accurate as WWVB it may be another starting point. > > http://www.tauntek.com/wwvbgen-low-cost-wwvb-time-signal-generator.htm > > > > Donald R. Resor Jr. T. W. & T. C. Svc. Co. > http://hammondorganservice.com > Hammond USA warranty service > "Most people don't have a sense of humor. They think they do, but they > don't." --Jonathan Winters > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] new WWVB BPSK dev board
Hi All There is a 60 Khz frequency standard operating in the UK So do the two signals interfere with each other? Paul -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak Sent: 04 December 2018 02:12 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] new WWVB BPSK dev board At long last, a complete WWVB 60 kHz BPSK dev board is available: https://universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-cob-wwvb-60khz-bpsk-receiv er-kit-with-2-antennas/ Note it includes the antenna(s). Also has links to documentation. It would be very nice if a bunch of time nuts around the country played with these and reported results. Prior to this, the only device that you could buy which used the enhanced WWVB format was the La Crosse 404-1235UA-SS UltrAtomic clock. It was not developer friendly, so a dev board with the Everset ES100 chip is good news. The maker / hacker / Arduino crowd may enjoy a fresh source of accurate time; something independent of GPS or NTP. Some technical postings about reception quality, acquisition speed, and timing precision would be most welcome. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.8048 / Virus Database: 4793/15883 - Release Date: 08/14/18 Internal Virus Database is out of date. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB data to play with
While everyone's been talking :-) , I recorded some WWVB IQ data for folks to play with. You can download it from http://febo.com/pages/wwvb/ The receiver ran at 48 ksps and was centered on 80 kHz (to allow a 20 kHz IF to move away from 0 Hz crud). The data was taken in early afternoon in Dayton, Ohio. WWVB was easily visible in an FFT. I used a Red Pitaya driven through a 500 kHz low pass filter by a Clifton Labs voltage probe antenna with 1 meter vertical whip. The Red Pitaya, was loaded with firmware that emulates an HPSDR radio. I used Gnuradio with the "HermesNB" source block that Tom McDermott, N5EG, wrote. There's a ten minute IQ recording that includes the top of the hour at http://www.febo.com/pages/wwvb. The file is in Gnuradio binary format, which is complex data stored with real and imaginary parts interleaved in successive 32 bit floats I'm going to continue putzing around and will likely upload additional samples. If anyone would like some specific chunk of spectrum, just let me know. And if you do anything interesting with the data, please share it with the list! John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWV Doppler Shift
> That was the first time that I had seen an xy plot of WWV versus a > stable crystal oscillator. It is even worse than I thought. I had to > look up FRK to see that it is a rubidium standard. I talked to Jim > Maxton the chief engineer of WWVB many times around 1995. An xy cycle of WWV is just 200 ns, about 80x shorter than the 16667 ns cycle of WWVB. So, yes the xy plot in the video seems to jump around a lot, but if that were WWVB it would be 80x less, barely a wiggle. Does someone have a strip chart version of that video? Or, better yet, a raw data set of WWV (or WWVB) phase over a day or week? How hard would it be to use a hands-off SDR to produce a 5 MHz WWV phase data point every second? > Ft Collins is at 5,003 ft and clocks there run fast by 1.663·10^-13. > (g/c^2)/meter) compared to sea level. Yes, an out-of-the-box cesium clock will be relatively fast by that amount. But NIST (and everyone else) uses UTC, which is based on the SI second, which is defined at sea level (and several other footnotes). Which is to say that a national clock or radio transmitter (such as NIST, WWV, WWVB, or DCF77, or GPS for that matter) are adjusted in frequency so they tick SI seconds, and adjusted in phase so they align with UTC. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Disciplined Oscillator
Wayne good read on the paper. All of the spectracoms and such were rendered useless by the new BPSK modulation. Though now that 5 years or so have passed not so new. Unless the modulation is accounted for they can't track the carrier. There are external modifications and other approaches that have been suggested. I have design and tested numbers of them with a final approach using the cheat'n d-psk-r. Won't go into that as its been shared here on time-nuts enough. A lot depends on your location and signal strength. Clearly taking advantage of the new modulation for carrier prediction has advantage. But the fact is even I am now spoiled by GPSDOs. I also built a far simplere approach called a remodulator for simply allowing the spectracoms to get time. They are nice displays. Not sure you can get even those piece parts any longer. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 8:00 PM Wayne Holder wrote: > Perhaps this has been mention before, but I found the following document > while researching some details on WWVB and thought it might interest the > group: > > https://www.kevincroissant.com/WWVB/WWVB_PTTI_2018.pdf > > I know that Spectracom once made a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator in the form > of the Model 8164, but I figured that this approach probably was obsolete > in the era of GPS and network-based time. However, the author seems to have > produced some interesting results. Has anyone else built, or tried to > build a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator? > > Wayne > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
Bob, I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna. Ray Original Message Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question From: Bob kb8tq Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Hi A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the incoming WWVB signal……. Bob > On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM, > wrote: > > I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is > eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the > list have built these units. > > Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a schmitt > trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal back > down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB > signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and > somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range. > > Ray, > AB7HE > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FS: Spectracom 8161 "Standard Frequency Receiver - Oscillator" for WWVB (and question...)
Hi, I got a bit curious, so I dug up the manual (Available from Orolia that Spectracom is part of): https://www.orolia.com/sites/default/files/document-files/8161_manual.pdf It is apparent that the reference oscillator is actually free-running but compared to the WWVB, so you manually tune it to make the strip-chart become more of a flat line. This is interesting, because the receiver locks up another 10 MHz oscillator. Now, there is a 45 degree (2.1 micro) modulation on the WWVB signal, that shows up as time-tags on the strip-chart, so it is not trivially so that you just replace the simpler 10 MHz oscillator with the more advanced, unless you can live with that modulation at which time it is a fairlly trivial hack. You can be a bit more cunning to add hardware to compensate the modulation, but I wonder if that is what is done. To figure it out, one has to pop the lid to figure out. That is however not for me to do. Anyway, I thought the manual pointer and quick analysis would maybe be appreciated. Good luck! Cheers, Magnus On 2020-10-04 09:37, Kirk Bailey wrote: > I ran across an interesting widget in my ongoing "find the bottom of the > pile" task. Has a label indicating it was modified for "WWVB Continuous > Monitored". I thought these were all for WWVB, so what does "Continuous > Monitored" mean? See attached pic. If anyone is interested in being the > new owner please contact me directly. > > Thanks, > > Kirk Bailey > bai...@peak.org > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] More ES100 / WWVB BPSK chips
Christmas shopping? Here are good prices on the LaCrosse UltrAtomic for a Time-Nut. Lowe’s is selling the La Crosse UltrAtomic 404-1235UA-SS clock for $40.00 https://www.lowes.com/pd/La-Crosse-Technology-Analog-Atomic-Round-Indoor-Wall-Standard-Clock/1000197687 The is a 47% discount from buying identical clock from LaCrosse ($75.95). You likely can “pick-up” at your local Lowe’s store — avoiding shipping damage. https://www.lacrossetechnology.com/products/404-1235ua-ss The La Crosse UltrAtomic 404-1235UA-SS being sold for $26.39 Amazon Prime. Free shipping (glass breakage possible) from seller LaCrosse Technology. greg, w9gb == Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2020 01:16:23 -0700 From: Tom Van Baak To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] More ES100 / WWVB BPSK chips There were couple WWVB threads recently. One of the questions was if the La Crosse UltrAtomic 404-1235UA-SS wall clock is still the only WWVB clock that uses the new BPSK format. I learned that 3 different companies made prototypes but only La Crosse went to market. So at this point the 1235UA is the only commercial clock using the new eWWVB format. Everyone who has one reports superb reception quality, far better than traditional WWVB clocks. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] La Crosse Clocks -
> Transmitting on the same frequency you are receiving on seems like asking for troubles. Same frequency, but you wouldn't do both at the same time. See, you can't transmit AM WWVB until you first know what time it is. To get the time you enable the ES100 and listen to BPSK WWVB. So the ES100 receiver and Arduino transmitter are not active as the same time. One example might be to enable the ES100 for 3 minutes each hour and run the Arduino for the balance. > How far apart would the antennas have to be? Use the standard dual right angle ES100 antenna setup to receive BPSK WWVB. For transmit, you likely don't need, and legally don't want, an antenna. The Arduino is likely within a few feet of the 24h RC clock that you're trying to set. If it doesn't work first time, dangle a jumper off the GPIO pin. /tvb On 12/26/2020 1:59 PM, Hal Murray wrote: t...@leapsecond.com said: Use a ES100 board [2] to receive the real BPSK WWVB and then generate a fake AM WWVB signal for the 24h clock to receive. That way you get the enhanced reception of the new format and the wide clock selection of the Transmitting on the same frequency you are receiving on seems like asking for troubles. How far apart would the antennas have to be? How would you calculate that distance? Or what is the right question? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB BPSK Atomic Clock Receiver Modules
Shipping costs from Canada is horrendous, possibly what you ordered crossed the package/weight criteria for the cheaper shipping option -=Bryan=- From: time-nuts on behalf of rcb...@atcelectronics.com Sent: February 13, 2021 11:58 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB BPSK Atomic Clock Receiver Modules They reduced the price by 20% but they want $19.40 for shipping. I decided I didn't need the development kit. I ordered one of the AM WWVB kits back in early Nov and the shipping charge was only $4.50. Original Message Subject: [time-nuts] WWVB BPSK Atomic Clock Receiver Modules From: Bryan _ Date: Fri, February 12, 2021 7:07 pm To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Universal Solder has a Valentines day sale this weekend for up to 20% for members. They sell the WWVB BPSK Atomic Clock Receiver Modules and accessories for those interested. https://www.universal-solder.ca/ Cheers ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: local WWVB ?
On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 15:54:55 -0500 "Lawrence Brandt" wrote: > Has anyone designed and/or sold a "WWVB repeater" device? I can picture a > Raspberry Pi which had software to get NTP data or GPS-referenced time, and > a small 60 kHz transmitter, which would send the proper WWVB timecode data > to the several "atomic clocks" I have around the house. Today, with all the non-licensed wireless stuff we have as gadgets, it doesn't seem to be as obvious as it once was, but: Transmitting on a frequency you don't have the explicit license for is forbidden. And there are some quite hefty fines for that. Especially transmitting on a widely used frequency of an infrastructure service like WWVB might not be looked kindly upon. If you want to lock WWVB clocks that are placed somewhere, where the reception is not good enough. Then you should inject the signal directly into the clock. This way you avoid transmitting. Alternatively, replace the electronics with some 802.15.4 system (e.g., 6LowPan) and distribute time in this network. There are plenty of developer boards available for this kind of stuff, just check adafruit and sparkfun. Attila Kinali -- The driving force behind research is the question: "Why?" There are things we don't understand and things we always wonder about. And that's why we do research. -- Kobayashi Makoto ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: local WWVB ?
Although not advisable a search of the Internet will turn up several. There is a well know Raspberry PI version. The range of the transmitters is only a couple of feet so if placed next to your clock it will work. Anything that would cover your entire house would certainly not be advised. There is also a smart phone app that does the same thing. It uses the phone speaker somehow to generate a harmonic (probably 3rd of 20 kHz). The watch or clock has to be placed next to the phone speaker for it to work. Ray, AB7HE On 2021-12-11 06:43, Attila Kinali wrote: On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 15:54:55 -0500 "Lawrence Brandt" wrote: Has anyone designed and/or sold a "WWVB repeater" device? I can picture a Raspberry Pi which had software to get NTP data or GPS-referenced time, and a small 60 kHz transmitter, which would send the proper WWVB timecode data to the several "atomic clocks" I have around the house. Today, with all the non-licensed wireless stuff we have as gadgets, it doesn't seem to be as obvious as it once was, but: Transmitting on a frequency you don't have the explicit license for is forbidden. And there are some quite hefty fines for that. Especially transmitting on a widely used frequency of an infrastructure service like WWVB might not be looked kindly upon. If you want to lock WWVB clocks that are placed somewhere, where the reception is not good enough. Then you should inject the signal directly into the clock. This way you avoid transmitting. Alternatively, replace the electronics with some 802.15.4 system (e.g., 6LowPan) and distribute time in this network. There are plenty of developer boards available for this kind of stuff, just check adafruit and sparkfun. Attila Kinali ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: local WWVB ?
That is a very impressive project. -=Bryan=- From: Robb via time-nuts Sent: December 11, 2021 5:48 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Cc: Robb Subject: [time-nuts] Re: local WWVB ? When there was talk a few years ago about this service going away I found this alternative: https://www.anishathalye.com/2016/12/26/micro-wwvb/ -- Sent with Tutanota, the secure & ad-free mailbox. Dec 10, 2021, 15:54 by lawrence.bra...@gmail.com: > Hi Folks, > > > > I always like your discussions! Now I'd like to ask a question. > > > > Has anyone designed and/or sold a "WWVB repeater" device? I can picture a > Raspberry Pi which had software to get NTP data or GPS-referenced time, and > a small 60 kHz transmitter, which would send the proper WWVB timecode data > to the several "atomic clocks" I have around the house. > > > > If not, I'll look into coding something for the Pi or maybe a M5Stack > platform. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an > email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Petition to Maintain WWV, WWVH, WWVB
There seem to be 2 : https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/proposed-shutdown-nists-wwv-and-wwvh-radio-stations On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 8:44 PM, Dana Whitlow wrote: > Is there more of it? What I see makes no reference to WWVB. > > Dana > > > On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 1:10 PM Graham / KE9H > wrote: > > > Here is the URL of a petition to maintain funding of WWV, WWVH, WWVB. > > > > Only currently at about 7 percent of the number required for a response > > from White House. > > > > > > https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/maintain-funding- > nist-stations-wwv-wwvh > > > > --- Graham > > > > == > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Signal Generator
Few moons ago, I was thinking about to connect little audio amp. with attached usual WWVB ferrite antenna to the computer sound card. But I was stack about how to modulate the signal using SoundCard libraries. There is bunch of example how to generate sine or rectangles. The question is how to make it works as WWVB On 2018-08-25 14:28, Mark Sims wrote: If I was going to do it I would take a cheap Ublox 7M board (around $10 with antenna), program one of the time pulse outputs for 60 kHz (it divides evenly into 48 Mhz so no jitter), feed the Ublox serial data / 1PPS to an AVR chip (or $2 Arduino Nano clone), and use that to modulate the 60 KHz output. Total cost less than $20 and should get to to the microsecond level range. -- WBW, V.P. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
A general comment on the use of Schmitt-trigger and counters on a conditioned analog signal: You will likely run into issues with missing counts or additional counts when the receiver experiences fadings or glitches (lightning, etc.) If this happens, the 60 kHz signal will jump in phase. Ole Den 08-10-2020 kl. 20:07 skrev rcb...@atcelectronics.com: I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the list have built these units. Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a schmitt trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal back down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range. Ray, AB7HE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8161 "Standard Frequency Receiver - Oscillator" for WWVB (and question...)
Hi, On 2020-10-05 11:20, Hal Murray wrote: >> On a WWVB setup you get 10’s of us ( yes microseconds) of movement at >> sunrise and sunset. You get as much as 10us between day and night. > Somehow, I was thinking that WWVB was ground wave and wouldn't be effected by > changes in the height of the ionosphere. Am I totally out of it, or is 10s > of > uSec just a lot better than the day/night shift you get with WWV? You will for sure see a mix of ground wave and ionspheric reflection, and those will vector sum. Depending on your distance your milage may vary. The same is seen at 77,5 kHz (DCF77) and 100 kHz (LORAN-C). The solar flare effect documented in the 8161 manual is for sure an ionspheric reflection effect. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8161 "Standard Frequency Receiver - Oscillator" for WWVB (and question...)
On 10/5/20 3:59 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote: Hi, On 2020-10-05 11:20, Hal Murray wrote: On a WWVB setup you get 10’s of us ( yes microseconds) of movement at sunrise and sunset. You get as much as 10us between day and night. Somehow, I was thinking that WWVB was ground wave and wouldn't be effected by changes in the height of the ionosphere. Am I totally out of it, or is 10s of uSec just a lot better than the day/night shift you get with WWV? You will for sure see a mix of ground wave and ionspheric reflection, and those will vector sum. Depending on your distance your milage may vary. The same is seen at 77,5 kHz (DCF77) and 100 kHz (LORAN-C). The solar flare effect documented in the 8161 manual is for sure an ionspheric reflection effect. And, just as with Omega (10-15 kHz) the height of the ionosphere changes the effective height of the "waveguide" through which the surface wave propagates. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWV / WWVB Reference Feed
Hello all... I have a question that I have been unable to answer,and I am sure one of the learned time-nuts will havean instant answer for me! During my searching for an answer to my question, I learned that there is an NIST Facility at Boulder, CO that has a 4 Cs Ensemble that is the frequency reference for the WWV and WWVB transmitters at nearby Ft. Collins. My question: how is that reference transferred from the NISTfacility to the WWV / WWVB transmitter site? For some reason, I was under the impression that the referencefrequency for the transmitters was locally generated at Ft. Collins. I have searched around for the answer, but have come up emptyhanded. TNX to anyone who might have the answer! 73DonW4WJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB teensy BPSK early experiments
Sorry Bob. I meant to address this question to Paul. "Things already accomplished by Chris in the wwvb AM receiver" Is there a link to the AM receiver? Curious as to what that looks like. Ray, AB7HE Original Message Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB teensy BPSK early experiments From: Date: Sat, October 31, 2020 5:55 pm To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Bob, "Things already accomplished by Chris in the wwvb AM receiver" Is there a link to the AM receiver? Curious as to what that looks like. Ray, AB7HE Original Message Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB teensy BPSK early experiments From: Bob kb8tq Date: Sat, October 31, 2020 11:42 am To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Hi …..errr….. Can you pull the clock oscillator off the Teensy board? (Yes, the soldering iron would be involved). Will the clock input to the MCU accept something like 10 MHz? If so solder on a cable …. At that point whatever the Teeny does is locked to the 10 MHz. If that comes from one of the $3 eBay OCXO’s, steer that with a DAC output … now you have a WWVB GPSDO. Indeed, if the Teensy needs 28 MHz, then the OCXO will not be quite as cheap. Bob > On Oct 31, 2020, at 1:47 PM, paul swed wrote: > > Hello to the group. Wanted to update the everyone thats interested in > what I have learned so far on the Teensy and audio codec. No complete > solution yet. Much of my experimentation and knowledge has come from Frank > and Chris, who built the complete wwvb AM time receiver. In addition > and important is Johns KD2DB BPSK receiver. There is a reason this matters. > > The teensy combination is powerful and somewhat easy to use. (Has to be for > me). So over the week or so it's been getting used to the audio libraries > and how pieces are connected in software and then seeing the results. All > of the base experiments worked very quickly. Simple things like signal > generators, multipliers and filters. Things already accomplished by Chris > in the wwvb AM receiver. > > But the question really is what to accomplish? > If its the wwvb bpsk timecode. Simply buy an ES100 and be done. > > The interest that I have is a locked reference. Minimizing soldering and > construction. This is the point things get interesting. > A NCO can be created in Teensy but it tends to be low frequency and a > multiple of 60 KHz. Stability sort of isn't. But if it could be created > then a complete frequency reference in the teensy could be accomplished. > That makes for a heck of a low power receiver 1 watt, inexpensive, and > little soldering. > The above path literally follows the old Spectracoms and Truetime direct > conversion receivers. > Have to look at their schematics because they do lock a useful reference. > But that means something external has to come into the teensy. Get the > soldering iron hot. > > The other approach is essentially Johns KD2BD receiver in software with an > external reference chain delivering 50KHz and 10 KHz to the teensy. Well > this is getting ugly now because that external chain is made up of a > classical divider 10 MHz to 50 KHz etc. But does give a very nicely locked > useful wwvb reference. Its really a hybrid because it significantly reduces > the soldering required in a true KD2BD receiver but isn't the pure in > a chip solution. > > All of this is just for fun because the fact is the GPDSOs we use are > better. > If a receiver is built a natural by-product is the time message. Its just > not my focus or interest. > Much more to learn. > > Next steps > Start to reuse the wwvb teensy AM receiver. > Chop out all of the display software. Its all very nice but for me at this > stage gets in the way of understanding things. > > With respect to I generation several suggestions have been made. But the > teensy supports multiple multipliers. Sort of thinking, use the sine > wave oscillator and add a 90 degree delay to a second path to a second > multiplier. An alternative inject the delay in the wwvb signal also. How > fine a delay is a serious question. > Much to learn and potholes to fall into. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman
[time-nuts] Re: WWVB Daylight savings
I have 3 WWVB AM clocks that did not update DST overnight last night but one that did and two BPSK clocks that did. Par for the course. The BPSK clocks always set correctly within 10 minutes any time of day.I moved the clocks that did not update into the garage out from under the aluminum coated thermal barrier attic insulation; they will update overnight tonight.I'm in Southern California. Wish there were more BPSK clocks...LarrySent via the Samsung Galaxy S10 Original message From: lstosk...@cox.net Date: 3/14/21 7:23 PM (GMT-08:00) To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] WWVB Daylight savings Strange, here in KS one of my 60 kHz clocks didn't update. I'll give it a few days and not blame the update. N0UU___time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.comTo unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: local WWVB ?
Hi Putting out a signal on a frequency like that is probably not a good idea. There *is* risk of it propagating … Better to just let the clocks lock to the real thing. Bob > On Dec 10, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Lawrence Brandt > wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > > > I always like your discussions! Now I'd like to ask a question. > > > > Has anyone designed and/or sold a "WWVB repeater" device? I can picture a > Raspberry Pi which had software to get NTP data or GPS-referenced time, and > a small 60 kHz transmitter, which would send the proper WWVB timecode data > to the several "atomic clocks" I have around the house. > > > > If not, I'll look into coding something for the Pi or maybe a M5Stack > platform. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an > email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
Hi Some of the folks doing this are running pretty massive antennas. If you believe that the max signal from WWVB into your antenna is around 1 mV and accept the 5V p-p number, then you would need at least 74 db simply to have it not be equal to the transmit signal at max signal levels. You probably want it 20 db below that level to have a rational setup. That gets you to 94 db. If you see 20 to 40 db fades below “max” then you are into the 114 to 134 db range. This is not to say you can’t get the job done. Only that you would need to pay a bit of attention to the issue …. Bob > On Oct 8, 2020, at 4:50 PM, rcb...@atcelectronics.com wrote: > > Bob, > > I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna. > > Ray > > Original Message > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question > From: Bob kb8tq > Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > > Hi > > A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the incoming > WWVB signal……. > > Bob > >> On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM, >> wrote: >> >> I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is >> eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the >> list have built these units. >> >> Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a schmitt >> trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal back >> down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB >> signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and >> somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range. >> >> Ray, >> AB7HE >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8161 "Standard Frequency Receiver - Oscillator" for WWVB (and question...)
Hi This is another of the many devices out there that pre-date the “modern” 180 degree phase modulation approach on WWVB. Getting one of these to run properly with the new modulation approach would take some major mods ….. Bob > On Oct 4, 2020, at 10:23 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote: > > Hi, > > I got a bit curious, so I dug up the manual (Available from Orolia that > Spectracom is part of): > > https://www.orolia.com/sites/default/files/document-files/8161_manual.pdf > > It is apparent that the reference oscillator is actually free-running > but compared to the WWVB, so you manually tune it to make the > strip-chart become more of a flat line. > > This is interesting, because the receiver locks up another 10 MHz > oscillator. > > Now, there is a 45 degree (2.1 micro) modulation on the WWVB signal, > that shows up as time-tags on the strip-chart, so it is not trivially so > that you just replace the simpler 10 MHz oscillator with the more > advanced, unless you can live with that modulation at which time it is a > fairlly trivial hack. You can be a bit more cunning to add hardware to > compensate the modulation, but I wonder if that is what is done. > > To figure it out, one has to pop the lid to figure out. That is however > not for me to do. > > Anyway, I thought the manual pointer and quick analysis would maybe be > appreciated. > > Good luck! > > Cheers, > Magnus > > On 2020-10-04 09:37, Kirk Bailey wrote: >> I ran across an interesting widget in my ongoing "find the bottom of the >> pile" task. Has a label indicating it was modified for "WWVB Continuous >> Monitored". I thought these were all for WWVB, so what does "Continuous >> Monitored" mean? See attached pic. If anyone is interested in being the >> new owner please contact me directly. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kirk Bailey >> bai...@peak.org >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB funding cut
On 8/20/18 4:17 PM, ew via time-nuts wrote: They're cutting a lot more than WWV/WWVH/WWVB - they're cutting 300+ folks in the labs doing all sorts of things. Download the doc that Rick posted the link to, go to page NIST-24 and start reading.. I don't know enough about how the labs are organized to know if any time standards measurement and development (e.g. the next generation atomic clocks) is on the chopping block. They're meeting and exceeding all their performance targets (end of the doc) - about twice as many CRADAs as the target, Journal impact factor is >1.7 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] About the recent WWVB thread(s)
This is reminder that time-nuts is a technical mailing list. If you know something about WWVB for sure, please post. If you're just guessing, speculating, spreading rumors, or just ranting please don't make 1800 other people read your posts. I don't know where some of you get the idea that you can post random thoughts or political crap to this mailing list. Please stop. Thanks, /tvb http://leapsecond.com/time-nuts.htm ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] new WWVB BPSK dev board
In message <63462681-f5d7-0282-ef5b-82e8332d0...@dartmouth.edu>, "David G. McGaw" writes: >BTW, I have been told it has also been successfully tested for lock in Brazil. > Is there anyone in Australia want to give it a try? Perth is almost directly >opposite Fort Collins. :-) Write a WWVB extension to KiwiSDR so you can try it all over the world ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] TrueTime DC60 wwvb clock looking for one
Hello to the group. You may remember the wwvb d-psk-r from 2015 or not. It still lives. That said I would like obtain a Truetime DC-60 because its very easy to work on internally. Looking to build a test instrument for looking at the phase shift in the message. I have done it for years using a scope and its a royal pain. So if someone has one that you want to get rid of please contact me offline. Thank you Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8161 "Standard Frequency Receiver -, Oscillator" for WWVB (and question...)
jimlux wrote : > And, just as with Omega (10-15 kHz) the height of the ionosphere > changes the effective height of the "waveguide" through which > the surface wave propagates. Exactly! Folks, this isn't simple "reflections" between the earth and the ionosphere. At VLF frequencies the wavelength is comparable to the height of the ionosphere (D layer, 70-90 km above earth's surface), so we have "waveguide propagation" in the "earth-ionosphere waveguide". The WWVB phase changes occurring during sunrise and sunset transitions are caused by the change in the dimensions of the waveguide. Quite a different situation from what we are used to at HF/VHF. ... Martin VE3OAT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] IC Used In WWVB Receiver (Link In E-Mail)
Hello Time Nuts, Does anyone know which IC is used in the following: (Note: Links have been sanitized by the list moderator.) WWVB Receiver on Amazon <https://www.amazon.com/Alano-Controlled-Modules-Receiver-Operating/dp/B07RYK5KN6> It also comes with a clock module: With Clock Module <https://www.amazon.com/ALANO-Controlled-Receiver-Modules-Operating/dp/B07YD2XCFL> Thanks In Advance! 73's, John AJ6BC ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] For those following ES100 WWVB receiver modules
The ES100 module sold by universal-solder.ca which Tom introduced us to a couple years ago, is now End-Of-Life. "A new module is currently in development". https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/everset-es100-cob-wwvb-60khz-bpsk-receiver-kit-with-2-antennas/ I myself did some experimenting with a tuned loop antenna through a 60 kHz crystal bandpass hooked to a 192k sample rate USB audio card. I can post process data to pull out phase shifts and time code but am nowhere near doing this in real-time. Tim N3QE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] La Crosse Clocks -
t...@leapsecond.com said: > Use a ES100 board [2] to receive the real BPSK WWVB and then generate a fake > AM WWVB signal for the 24h clock to receive. That way you get the enhanced > reception of the new format and the wide clock selection of the Transmitting on the same frequency you are receiving on seems like asking for troubles. How far apart would the antennas have to be? How would you calculate that distance? Or what is the right question? -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] ES100 Atomic Clock Receiver Back in Stock
Just to be clear, is the ES-100 the receiver used in the Ultratomic clocks made by Lacrosse? Dana On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 7:38 AM Ben Hall wrote: > Good morning all, > > Universal Solder is showing the ES-100 WWVB BPSK clock kits back in > stock. Just put me one on order. :) > > < > https://www.universal-solder.ca/product/canaduino-application-development-kit-with-everset-es100-mod-wwvb-bpsk-atomic-clock-receiver-module/ > > > > Thanks much and 73, > ben, kd5byb > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB teensy BPSK early experiments
Hi …..errr….. Can you pull the clock oscillator off the Teensy board? (Yes, the soldering iron would be involved). Will the clock input to the MCU accept something like 10 MHz? If so solder on a cable …. At that point whatever the Teeny does is locked to the 10 MHz. If that comes from one of the $3 eBay OCXO’s, steer that with a DAC output … now you have a WWVB GPSDO. Indeed, if the Teensy needs 28 MHz, then the OCXO will not be quite as cheap. Bob > On Oct 31, 2020, at 1:47 PM, paul swed wrote: > > Hello to the group. Wanted to update the everyone thats interested in > what I have learned so far on the Teensy and audio codec. No complete > solution yet. Much of my experimentation and knowledge has come from Frank > and Chris, who built the complete wwvb AM time receiver. In addition > and important is Johns KD2DB BPSK receiver. There is a reason this matters. > > The teensy combination is powerful and somewhat easy to use. (Has to be for > me). So over the week or so it's been getting used to the audio libraries > and how pieces are connected in software and then seeing the results. All > of the base experiments worked very quickly. Simple things like signal > generators, multipliers and filters. Things already accomplished by Chris > in the wwvb AM receiver. > > But the question really is what to accomplish? > If its the wwvb bpsk timecode. Simply buy an ES100 and be done. > > The interest that I have is a locked reference. Minimizing soldering and > construction. This is the point things get interesting. > A NCO can be created in Teensy but it tends to be low frequency and a > multiple of 60 KHz. Stability sort of isn't. But if it could be created > then a complete frequency reference in the teensy could be accomplished. > That makes for a heck of a low power receiver 1 watt, inexpensive, and > little soldering. > The above path literally follows the old Spectracoms and Truetime direct > conversion receivers. > Have to look at their schematics because they do lock a useful reference. > But that means something external has to come into the teensy. Get the > soldering iron hot. > > The other approach is essentially Johns KD2BD receiver in software with an > external reference chain delivering 50KHz and 10 KHz to the teensy. Well > this is getting ugly now because that external chain is made up of a > classical divider 10 MHz to 50 KHz etc. But does give a very nicely locked > useful wwvb reference. Its really a hybrid because it significantly reduces > the soldering required in a true KD2BD receiver but isn't the pure in > a chip solution. > > All of this is just for fun because the fact is the GPDSOs we use are > better. > If a receiver is built a natural by-product is the time message. Its just > not my focus or interest. > Much more to learn. > > Next steps > Start to reuse the wwvb teensy AM receiver. > Chop out all of the display software. Its all very nice but for me at this > stage gets in the way of understanding things. > > With respect to I generation several suggestions have been made. But the > teensy supports multiple multipliers. Sort of thinking, use the sine > wave oscillator and add a 90 degree delay to a second path to a second > multiplier. An alternative inject the delay in the wwvb signal also. How > fine a delay is a serious question. > Much to learn and potholes to fall into. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: WWVB Daylight savings
My clocks did update and I have one that lags by 2 weeks due to its very old internal software. It flips on the old date. WWVB was indeed down in the noise this afternoon as John mentioned. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 10:23 PM wrote: > Strange, here in KS one of my 60 kHz clocks didn't update. I'll give it a > few days and not blame the update. N0UU > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send > an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: Isotemp OCXO question
Robert DiRosario writes: > I really wish NIST didn't add the BPSK modulation to WWVB. Increasing > the transmitter power would have been a lot better, but I'm sure that > would have cost a lot more then just changing the modulation. One does not simply increase the transmitter power at 60kHz. The WWVB antennas are essentially capacitors against ground, around 15nF, and they operate at voltages somewhere in the 30-50kV range. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Looking for another true time manual
Good morning group, Wanted to see if anyone has a lead on a truetime 60-TR manual? I’m bidding on one via eBay, not sure of its condition. It’s another WWVB receiver, so I will likely have to do the conversion to make it compatible with the new modulation scheme. I’m also trying to figure out if the 60-TR is the same as the 60-DC without a display? Any help is appreciated! For some unknown reason I’m fascinated by the old WWVB clocks! Spencer Sent from my iPhone ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Disciplined Oscillator
> Hi Wayne, > Great to see you found my presentation! > The paper is available here: > https://www.kevincroissant.com/WWVB/WWVB_PTTI_2018_paper.pdf Kevin, thanks for the link to the paper. I'd like to know more about how correlation works and how you were able to use to to sync with the WWVB bitstream. From what I read in your paper, I'm guessing that the "local" code you use for correlation is generated by prediction once the receiver has locked on the broadcast code and these two bit streams are then "compared" in some way via multiplication... But, I don't really understand how this is done at a practical level as it would seem that his would require multiple passes over the code with some type of sliding time offset that advances with each pass? Or, are there simpler techniques? Can you suggest a reference where I can learn more? BTW, for everyone else following the WWW/WWVB/WWVH defunding saga, a post on this web page: http://cqnewsroom.blogspot.com claims that "*Congress has restored full funding for WWV, WWVB and WWVH, despite a budget proposal from the National Institute of Standards and Technology to shut down the three standard time and frequency radio stations. The Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2019 included some $725 million for NIST's Scientific and Technical Research and Services (STRS), the budget category that includes the stations' funding, according to NIST Public Affairs Director Gail Porter. The conference report accompanying the budget bill notes that "(t)he agreement rejects the proposed terminations and reductions for all STRS programs" and includes "not less than fiscal year 2018 funding" for several services, including "Time and Fundamental Measurement Dissemination."* The article then adds: *"With the shutdown threat ended, preparations continue for marking WWV's centennial this fall. According to the ARRL Letter, the Northern Colorado Amateur Radio Club will be operating a special event station from the WWV transmitter site from September 28 through October 2, using the callsign WW0WWV."* Wayne Wayne Wayne On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 9:00 PM Kevin Croissant wrote: > Hi Wayne, > > Great to see you found my presentation! > The paper is available here: > https://www.kevincroissant.com/WWVB/WWVB_PTTI_2018_paper.pdf > I traveled to CO and met with NIST people there and gathered more data > then. We're planning to put out another paper soon (I'm finishing up my > bachelor's right now so I'm a bit preoccupied though). > I think LF timing is still very relevant in this day and age, and WWVB > still shows promise as a national timing source. > > Let me know if you have any questions. > Best, > Kevin > > On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 10:00 PM paul swed wrote: > > > Wayne good read on the paper. > > All of the spectracoms and such were rendered useless by the new BPSK > > modulation. Though now that 5 years or so have passed not so new. Unless > > the modulation is accounted for they can't track the carrier. There are > > external modifications and other approaches that have been suggested. I > > have design and tested numbers of them with a final approach using the > > cheat'n d-psk-r. Won't go into that as its been shared here on time-nuts > > enough. A lot depends on your location and signal strength. Clearly > taking > > advantage of the new modulation for carrier prediction has advantage. But > > the fact is even I am now spoiled by GPSDOs. > > I also built a far simplere approach called a remodulator for simply > > allowing the spectracoms to get time. They are nice displays. Not sure > you > > can get even those piece parts any longer. > > Regards > > Paul > > WB8TSL > > > > On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 8:00 PM Wayne Holder > > wrote: > > > > > Perhaps this has been mention before, but I found the following > document > > > while researching some details on WWVB and thought it might interest > the > > > group: > > > > > > https://www.kevincroissant.com/WWVB/WWVB_PTTI_2018.pdf > > > > > > I know that Spectracom once made a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator in the > > form > > > of the Model 8164, but I figured that this approach probably was > obsolete > > > in the era of GPS and network-based time. However, the author seems to > > have > > > produced some interesting results. Has anyone else built, or tried to > > > build a WWVB Disciplined Oscillator? > > > > > > Wayne > > > ___ > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > > To unsubscribe, go to > > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/ti
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB teensy BPSK early experiments
Thanks John. Ray, AB7HE Original Message Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB teensy BPSK early experiments From: "John C. Westmoreland, P.E." Date: Sat, October 31, 2020 9:06 pm To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Ray, https://github.com/chris-elfpen/Teensy4WWVBsdr 73's, John AJ6BC On Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 18:31 wrote: > Bob, > > "Things already accomplished by Chris in the wwvb AM receiver" > > Is there a link to the AM receiver? Curious as to what that looks like. > > Ray, > AB7HE > > Original Message > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB teensy BPSK early experiments > From: Bob kb8tq > Date: Sat, October 31, 2020 11:42 am > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > > Hi > > …..errr….. > > Can you pull the clock oscillator off the Teensy board? (Yes, the > soldering > iron would be involved). > > Will the clock input to the MCU accept something like 10 MHz? If so > solder > on a cable …. > > At that point whatever the Teeny does is locked to the 10 MHz. If that > comes > from one of the $3 eBay OCXO’s, steer that with a DAC output … now > you > have a WWVB GPSDO. > > Indeed, if the Teensy needs 28 MHz, then the OCXO will not be quite as > cheap. > > Bob > > > On Oct 31, 2020, at 1:47 PM, paul swed wrote: > > > > Hello to the group. Wanted to update the everyone thats interested in > > what I have learned so far on the Teensy and audio codec. No complete > > solution yet. Much of my experimentation and knowledge has come from > Frank > > and Chris, who built the complete wwvb AM time receiver. In addition > > and important is Johns KD2DB BPSK receiver. There is a reason this > matters. > > > > The teensy combination is powerful and somewhat easy to use. (Has to be > for > > me). So over the week or so it's been getting used to the audio libraries > > and how pieces are connected in software and then seeing the results. All > > of the base experiments worked very quickly. Simple things like signal > > generators, multipliers and filters. Things already accomplished by Chris > > in the wwvb AM receiver. > > > > But the question really is what to accomplish? > > If its the wwvb bpsk timecode. Simply buy an ES100 and be done. > > > > The interest that I have is a locked reference. Minimizing soldering and > > construction. This is the point things get interesting. > > A NCO can be created in Teensy but it tends to be low frequency and a > > multiple of 60 KHz. Stability sort of isn't. But if it could be created > > then a complete frequency reference in the teensy could be accomplished. > > That makes for a heck of a low power receiver 1 watt, inexpensive, and > > little soldering. > > The above path literally follows the old Spectracoms and Truetime direct > > conversion receivers. > > Have to look at their schematics because they do lock a useful reference. > > But that means something external has to come into the teensy. Get the > > soldering iron hot. > > > > The other approach is essentially Johns KD2BD receiver in software with > an > > external reference chain delivering 50KHz and 10 KHz to the teensy. Well > > this is getting ugly now because that external chain is made up of a > > classical divider 10 MHz to 50 KHz etc. But does give a very nicely > locked > > useful wwvb reference. Its really a hybrid because it significantly > reduces > > the soldering required in a true KD2BD receiver but isn't the pure in > > a chip solution. > > > > All of this is just for fun because the fact is the GPDSOs we use are > > better. > > If a receiver is built a natural by-product is the time message. Its just > > not my focus or interest. > > Much more to learn. > > > > Next steps > > Start to reuse the wwvb teensy AM receiver. > > Chop out all of the display software. Its all very nice but for me at > this > > stage gets in the way of understanding things. > > > > With respect to I generation several suggestions have been made. But > the > > teensy supports multiple multipliers. Sort of thinking, use the sine > > wave oscillator and add a 90 degree delay to a second path to a second > > multiplier. An alternative inject the delay in the wwvb signal also. How > > fine a delay is a serious question. > > Much to learn and potholes to fall into. > > Regards > > Paul > > WB8TSL > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Chronverter update
Have you tried to contact the manufacturer? It sounds like something that should be easy to fix and that he would want to fix. Didier KO4BB On Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:55 PM paul swed wrote: > Hello to the group. > Had sometime to hook up the chronverter wwvb simulator. > Numbers of details. > The software and operation are clear. > Everything is easy to setup. > Bad news. > Though the system when set to wwvb puts out a signal on 60Khz its on off > keying. > WWVBs signal is reduced carrier by some 14db. > As such any of the WWVB clocks of quality/phase tracking do not lock and do > not decode. > I have not tried the cheap clocks yet that I suspect will work. > The actual carrier out is a healthy 0 dbm. > > Some issues with commands and the system seeming to lock up requiring power > cycles. > > With respect to the carrier. The chronverter is elegant in the fact that it > can generate the 60 KHz frequency and other LF signals. But I will need to > add an external 6 MHz oscillator divider and modulator if I want to use it > with the good receivers. > Adds power and complexity. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Translation
Andy pretty much what I did also. A loop in the basement as suggested by a time-nut. Radiations quite low depending on the floor of the house and walls its 100uv to 30 uv. Did resonate it with a cap that seemed to improve things. But no matter it works for what I need and the clocks are happy. I leave the simulator on all of the time now as no matter the time of the day or battery change the clocks lock in the 3 or so minutes. Since I don't own an official lacrosse no issue here though perhaps mid January I will pick one up cheap... Chuckle. If I do I guess l'll have to build a BPSK version. Oh hang on there thats what the de-psk-r is. Just add 60 KHz. Actually depending on the clocks cost as they get dropped maybe not a bad idea. Have fun with your system. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 6:04 PM Andy Backus wrote: > For those still interested in GPS to WWVB simulation -- after trying a few > antenna designs I found that a 50-foot loop of #26 enameled wire stapled to > the rafters in the basement works quite well. Putting 35 ma (rms) of 60 > kHz WWVB signal through it lights up the house quite nicely. I don't know > yet if it also lights up the neighbor's house. I think I will investigate > that question when (and if) they pull the plug in Colorado. But I am > prepared. > > > Not so much for my La Crosse Technology WWVB BPSK clock. I think it will > get swamped out. Can't have everything, I guess. > > > Andy Backus > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] More ES100 WWVB Measurements
> GPS has no bits for Daylight Savings. As far as I know only WWV and WWVB > have those bits. So for a clock displaying local time WWVB is the way to go. WWVB's DST data is targeted at the US. Does anybody know how many other places use the same rules? What does Canada do? Has anybody looked into how much code it takes to implement DST? If you are willing to stick to one set of rules, you could pre-compute a small table to cover the next 20 (or 100) years. That's probably not good enough for a product, but OK for most home brew clocks. Can I get to 2100 with only 28 slots? (7 for day-of-week, and 4 for leap years) The full Unix time conversion package is pretty big if you are of running it on a tiny SOC. Has anybody implemented a slimmed down version? How slim can you get if all you want is DST? Besides, GPS gives you leap second warning. A while ago, somebody asked why use WWVB rather than GPS? One answer is so we can monitor what it does when a leap second happens. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
