Re:[tips] Why Do People Need A College B.A.?

[Mike Wiliams]

There is a line in the original The Godfather book that has always stuck 
with me:  Anyone can learn anyone else's job in about six weeks.
(My quote may not be 100% accurate.)  I ponder that from time to time.  
Although it might take a lot of education to be any physician (or
accountant or psychologist or attorney) it takes a small fraction of 
that training to be a specific physician.  All the great cases of people who
impersonated these professions are testament to this.  When I think of 
my actual routine every day, I wonder how long it would take
to train someone to do the specific job rather than train someone for a 
generic profession.  I have this feeling that learning the job of
college professor was done mostly by myself as a kind of independent 
study project that was conducted years after any formal education.


The discussion also reminds me of an incident we had years ago with a 
medical student who did not pass his boards covering the first two
years of medical school in which the students take basic medical 
science.  He was allowed to proceed to clinical training contingent on
studying and taking the boards again.  He managed to get all the way 
through medical school without passing the boards.  He was
widely regarded as an excellent clinician and many of his supervisors, 
many of whom felt the science years were irrelevant, wanted the
board requirement waived so that he could graduate.  The case really 
pitted the science faculty against the medical faculty.  The
decision went all the way to the President.  He decided in favor of the 
science faculty.  I never heard there was a conflict over this until this
case came up.  Apparently many physicians believe training should be 
more clinical and less science.  In the 19th Century, most of the

medical training was clinical apprenticeship.

My general assessment is that there has been a gigantic inflation of 
degrees and coursework.  People selecting for jobs are confronted with
an applicant sample that has no variance in credentials.  The applicants 
are told each year that they need more and more education in
order to stand out and be selected.  This absurd pressure is forcing 
more and more people to enhance their credentials far and above anything
the employer needs.  CSPAN recently had a panel on law school 
education.  The first speaker got up and said that if he now applied to his
firm with his current credentials, he would not even get an interview.  
His firm was now only hiring people with law degrees who also had some
other marketable degree or specialized training.  We routinely reject 
applicants for grad school who have the publication credentials of

people we recently hired as assistant professors.

Mike Williams


On 10/24/11 1:00 AM, Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) 
digest wrote:

Re: Why Do People Need A College B.A.?



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Re: [tips] Why Do People Need A College B.A.?

[Brandon, Paul K]

Interesting!

I taught a lot of first generation college students over 40 years;
many of them didn't get a lot of support from their families (who were lucky to 
support themselves, financially and otherwise), but I don't recall hearing 
about a lot of actual resistance.  In some cases, they were in college to 
prepare to take over the family farm or business.
Of course, this is not data.

On Oct 23, 2011, at 7:32 PM, Paul C Bernhardt wrote:

> I really appreciate this being said by Jim.
> 
> We have a large number of first generation college students at our 
> university. My awareness of their unique situations has increased in the 4 
> years I've been here. I'd honestly never before thought much of it due to 
> ignorance and my personal upbringing (both my family and that of nearly all 
> of my friends). When I first heard that one common unique problem of first 
> generation college students is resistance from their family about getting a 
> college education I was caught completely off guard, it stunned me. I was 
> raised by parents who both had advanced degrees (two J.D.s and an M.S.). 
> Getting a bachelors degree was the minimal expected standard for me. To hear 
> of youngsters whose parents didn't encourage and support their child going to 
> college surprised me. I came to understand that there are feeling of threat 
> that the child will become of a different culture and no longer love and 
> respect their family is a major aspect of the parent's concerns (the child is 
> becoming a member of an outgroup). 
> 
> This thing called education is not just transformative of an individual. It 
> gets passed on and spread widely yielding the real power of it.
> 
> The individual level analysis to find cost-effectiveness is, IMO, failing to 
> account for the mass effects of having an educated society. 
> 
> As the old saying goes, "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."



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Re: [tips] Why Do People Need A College B.A.?

[Paul C Bernhardt]

I really appreciate this being said by Jim.

We have a large number of first generation college students at our university. 
My awareness of their unique situations has increased in the 4 years I've been 
here. I'd honestly never before thought much of it due to ignorance and my 
personal upbringing (both my family and that of nearly all of my friends). When 
I first heard that one common unique problem of first generation college 
students is resistance from their family about getting a college education I 
was caught completely off guard, it stunned me. I was raised by parents who 
both had advanced degrees (two J.D.s and an M.S.). Getting a bachelors degree 
was the minimal expected standard for me. To hear of youngsters whose parents 
didn't encourage and support their child going to college surprised me. I came 
to understand that there are feeling of threat that the child will become of a 
different culture and no longer love and respect their family is a major aspect 
of the parent's concerns (the child is becoming a member of an outgroup). 

This thing called education is not just transformative of an individual. It 
gets passed on and spread widely yielding the real power of it.

The individual level analysis to find cost-effectiveness is, IMO, failing to 
account for the mass effects of having an educated society. 

As the old saying goes, "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."

Paul C Bernhardt
Frostburg State University
Frostburg, MD, USA
pcbernhardt[at]frostburg[d0t]edu



On Oct 23, 2011, at 6:31 PM, Jim Clark wrote:


>  Unfortunately, people often look at the
> relationship between parental and child education in a negative light
> (i.e., advantaged being advantaged), without realizing that the parent
> (or their parent) may be the first of their lineage to advance to higher
> education.  That is, education may be the gift that keeps on giving,
> even to future generations.
> 


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[tips] Autism and the iPad

[Dr. Bob Wildblood]

The Jobs story continues on 60 Minutes.

Well, at least it isn't the kind of thing that has been touted as helping 
autistic kids type.  The iPad seems to be something that the autistic child 
can relate to.  Consistency?  Predictability? or is it just another thing that 
may or may not be a breakthrough.

Any research proposals underway yet?  I'm thinking about it and may have 
access to several autistic children.  


.
Robert W. Wildblood, PhD
Adjunct Psychology Faculty
Germanna Community College
drb...@rcn.com  

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Re: [tips] Why Do People Need A College B.A.?

[Mike Palij]

Briefly (because I'm watching Isaacson tell us what a crazy mofo
and son of a bitch Steve Jobs was), I think that the subtext is not
that colleges can or should produce millionaires/billionaires but
rather millionaires/billionaires don't need college.  The characteristics
that make for very wealthy individuals may or may not make for
good students -- the "reality distortion field" might get in the way.
And having a single-mindedness determination may work well for
some things (like trying to find a cure for cancer) but not for other
beliefs.  On the latter point, I think back to Kurt Vonnegut's book
"Cat's Cradle" with the industrialist who is going to San Lorenzo
to create a bicycle factory because the people there were so poor
that they would put up with any sort of crap he dished out.  As
Vonnegut put it, the industrialist really believed that God put people
on the earth to build bicycles for him. Such ideas might get in the way
of a college education. One wonders how many people have relocated 
their businesses or opened businesses in China because (a) the people 
are desperate there and will put up with a lot,  and (b) they believe 
that those people really are there to help them realize their dreams and
ambitions (that is, the owners' dreams and ambitions).  Perhaps
even Steve Jobs was one of these.

-Mike Palij
New York University
m...@nyu.edu

P.S.  A hippie who is into marketing?  How wrong is that?


- Original Message 
On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 15:31:36 -0700, Jim Clark wrote:
Hi

Although I have not read the book or the article (too far along the
road of cynicism about USA politics and public dialogue already), I
guess I never thought that we were trying to educate millionaires or
billionaires.  Surely every other statistic, economic and otherwise,
would pretty much favour those who were more educated.  I saw a brief
allusion somewhere recently to the apparent fact that vocational
education becomes even more of a fiscal liability as one gets older ...
not that the future must be like the past, of course.  On the other
hand, it probably is the case that many millionaires require some
uneducated and cheap labour in order to achieve their economic wealth or
to spend it with the biggest bang for the buck, and if they can't get it
cheap enough in their home country, they'll just find it somewhere
else.

I wonder if anyone has ever tried to draw together all the variables
that are correlated with education or with parental education?  Off the
top of my head, here are a few ... educational achievement of one's
children (passing all the benefits on to the next generation), attitudes
toward various oft-stigmatized groups, being unemployed, income, some
forms of mental illness,   Unfortunately, people often look at the
relationship between parental and child education in a negative light
(i.e., advantaged being advantaged), without realizing that the parent
(or their parent) may be the first of their lineage to advance to higher
education.  That is, education may be the gift that keeps on giving,
even to future generations.

I appreciate that correlation does not imply causation, but that
applies as well, of course, to claims about millionaire dropouts (e.g.,
perhaps they dropped out because they saw a road to millionaire-hood)
and surely one should not be excessively dismissive of relationships
that appear to be robust and widespread, whatever the ultimate causal
model.

Take care
Jim


James M. Clark
Professor of Psychology
204-786-9757
204-774-4134 Fax
j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca

>>> "Mike Palij"  23-Oct-11 4:14:46 PM >>>
There is an opinion piece in the NY Times by Michael Ellsberg
that makes the case that  college dropouts will save the U.S. because
they are the true "job creators".  The article can be read here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/opinion/sunday/will-dropouts-save-america.html?pagewanted=all&src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB


Ellsberg probably based the article on his currently popular book
*The Education of Millionaires: It*s Not What You Think and It*s

Not Too Late.*  You can see the reviews and the reader comments
up on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Education-Millionaires-What-Think-Portfolio/dp/1591844207


But all is not lost for academics.  Vartain Gregorian, the president
of the Carnegie corporation, wrote a review of the book in "Time"
and makes the traditional argument for a "liberal arts" education in
contrast to, say, vocational training or Ellsberg "entrepreneurial
education" model.  The book review can be read here:
http://ideas.time.com/2011/10/21/the-myth-of-the-millionaire-college-dropout/


But before Tipsters start feeling good about being teachers of
psychology,
the Time website also has the  "Top 10" best paid college majors and
the worst college majors.  The two lists can be found here:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,2073703,00.html

The worst paying major is described here:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/

Re: [tips] Why Do People Need A College B.A.?

[Jim Clark]

Hi

Although I have not read the book or the article (too far along the
road of cynicism about USA politics and public dialogue already), I
guess I never thought that we were trying to educate millionaires or
billionaires.  Surely every other statistic, economic and otherwise,
would pretty much favour those who were more educated.  I saw a brief
allusion somewhere recently to the apparent fact that vocational
education becomes even more of a fiscal liability as one gets older ...
not that the future must be like the past, of course.  On the other
hand, it probably is the case that many millionaires require some
uneducated and cheap labour in order to achieve their economic wealth or
to spend it with the biggest bang for the buck, and if they can't get it
cheap enough in their home country, they'll just find it somewhere
else.

I wonder if anyone has ever tried to draw together all the variables
that are correlated with education or with parental education?  Off the
top of my head, here are a few ... educational achievement of one's
children (passing all the benefits on to the next generation), attitudes
toward various oft-stigmatized groups, being unemployed, income, some
forms of mental illness,   Unfortunately, people often look at the
relationship between parental and child education in a negative light
(i.e., advantaged being advantaged), without realizing that the parent
(or their parent) may be the first of their lineage to advance to higher
education.  That is, education may be the gift that keeps on giving,
even to future generations.

I appreciate that correlation does not imply causation, but that
applies as well, of course, to claims about millionaire dropouts (e.g.,
perhaps they dropped out because they saw a road to millionaire-hood)
and surely one should not be excessively dismissive of relationships
that appear to be robust and widespread, whatever the ultimate causal
model.

Take care
Jim


James M. Clark
Professor of Psychology
204-786-9757
204-774-4134 Fax
j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca

>>> "Mike Palij"  23-Oct-11 4:14:46 PM >>>
There is an opinion piece in the NY Times by Michael Ellsberg
that makes the case that  college dropouts will save the U.S. because
they are the true "job creators".  The article can be read here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/opinion/sunday/will-dropouts-save-america.html?pagewanted=all&src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB


Ellsberg probably based the article on his currently popular book
*The Education of Millionaires: It*s Not What You Think and It*s

Not Too Late.*  You can see the reviews and the reader comments
up on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Education-Millionaires-What-Think-Portfolio/dp/1591844207


But all is not lost for academics.  Vartain Gregorian, the president
of the Carnegie corporation, wrote a review of the book in "Time"
and makes the traditional argument for a "liberal arts" education in
contrast to, say, vocational training or Ellsberg "entrepreneurial
education" model.  The book review can be read here:
http://ideas.time.com/2011/10/21/the-myth-of-the-millionaire-college-dropout/


But before Tipsters start feeling good about being teachers of
psychology,
the Time website also has the  "Top 10" best paid college majors and
the worst college majors.  The two lists can be found here:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,2073703,00.html

The worst paying major is described here:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2073703_2073654_2073673,00.html

NOTE:  This has been noted on TiPS previously.

One gets the feeling that one is watching the end of an era.

-Mike Palij
New York University
m...@nyu.edu 




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[tips] Why Do People Need A College B.A.?

[Mike Palij]

There is an opinion piece in the NY Times by Michael Ellsberg
that makes the case that  college dropouts will save the U.S. because
they are the true "job creators".  The article can be read here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/opinion/sunday/will-dropouts-save-america.html?pagewanted=all&src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB
 

Ellsberg probably based the article on his currently popular book
“The Education of Millionaires: It’s Not What You Think and It’s 
Not Too Late.”  You can see the reviews and the reader comments
up on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Education-Millionaires-What-Think-Portfolio/dp/1591844207

But all is not lost for academics.  Vartain Gregorian, the president
of the Carnegie corporation, wrote a review of the book in "Time"
and makes the traditional argument for a "liberal arts" education in
contrast to, say, vocational training or Ellsberg "entrepreneurial
education" model.  The book review can be read here:
http://ideas.time.com/2011/10/21/the-myth-of-the-millionaire-college-dropout/

But before Tipsters start feeling good about being teachers of psychology,
the Time website also has the  "Top 10" best paid college majors and
the worst college majors.  The two lists can be found here:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,2073703,00.html
The worst paying major is described here:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2073703_2073654_2073673,00.html
NOTE:  This has been noted on TiPS previously.

One gets the feeling that one is watching the end of an era.

-Mike Palij
New York University
m...@nyu.edu




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Re: [tips] Who Owns You?

[Louis E. Schmier]

Ed, when anyone asks me what is the secret to 45 years of marriage to the same 
woman, I always answer with two words, "Yes, ma'am."

Make it a good day

-Louis-


Louis Schmier  
http://www.therandomthoughts.edublogs.org
Department of History
http://www.therandomthoughts.com
Valdosta State University
Valdosta, Georgia 31698 /\   /\  /\ /\ 
/\
(O)  229-333-5947/^\\/  \/   \   /\/\__   /   \  /  
 \
(C)  229-630-0821   / \/   \_ \/ /   \/ /\/  /  \   
 /\  \
//\/\/ /\\__/__/_/\_\/  
  \_/__\  \
  /\"If you want to climb 
mountains,\ /\
  _ /  \don't practice on mole 
hills" - /   \_

On Oct 23, 2011, at 9:25 AM, Pollak, Edward (Retired) wrote:










Mike asked, "who owns you?"



That's an easy one. The answer is "my wife."



Edward I. Pollak, Ph.D.
Professor Emeritus of Psychology
West Chester University of Pennsylvania

http://home.comcast.net/~epollak/
Husband, father, grandfather, bluegrass fiddler & 
biopsychologist... in approximate order of importance


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[tips] Who Owns You?

[Pollak, Edward (Retired)]

Mike asked, "who owns you?"



That's an easy one. The answer is "my wife."



Edward I. Pollak, Ph.D.
Professor Emeritus of Psychology
West Chester University of Pennsylvania
http://home.comcast.net/~epollak/
Husband, father, grandfather, bluegrass fiddler & 
biopsychologist... in approximate order of importance


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