Re: Topband: RFI on TB

[CUTTER DAVID via Topband]

Thanks, Guy for clarifying the re-radiation issue. I had thoughts of the other 
way around as well, ie, the inverted L (or other tuned antenna) affecting the 
rx antennas. Breaking the dual band L somewhere to negate this effect might be 
more important. To that end I thought of simply switching from 160 to 80 during 
receive on 160 and from 80 to 160 when on 80.  Does that make sense and is it a 
sensible way to do it without using additional relays?  
David G3UNA/G6CP
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: Beverage Wire field installation video

[VE6WZ_Steve]

Here is my latest video showing some of the techniques and methods I use for 
installing Beverage wire antennas in the field:

https://youtu.be/l91JL2ImEbk 

Described are methods for wire layout, tree clearing, wire support and both 
feed-point and termination installation using tree supports.  Also shown is how 
the relay boxes for multiple Beverages, and the broadside phasing boxes are 
deployed in the field.  The VE6WZ remote QTH is heavily treed so this video is 
less relevant to an installation on farmland.

This is part of my "RX antenna series” of videos: 
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLipJSm0KKo3BgY8F6NQ1DH3070C3SaUMN 



73, de steve ve6wz
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Re: Topband: FCP vs Gull Wing Elevated Radials

[Chortek, Robert L.]

I am going to add what may be a meaningless post to this thread.

I live on a 1/4 acre lot in the black hole of San Jose California. Until very 
recently I was using a base loaded 1/8 wave vertical for 10 years. The vertical 
is on the side of the house 10 feet from the property line. I run eight 1/4 
wave radials from the base of the vertical 48 inches high to the roof at about 
10 feet where they make a 90° bend and run in various directions. The radial 
system forms a U shape.  

The system is highly asymmetrical and far from optimum. I run legal limit. This 
system has allowed me to work in excess of 150 countries on topband. The point 
I’m making is a dedicated top and operator can have what I would consider a 
high degree of success with even a compromise in antenna system.

Don’t lot perfect, or even good, be the enemy of the best you can do. You might 
be surprised at what you can accomplish.

73,


Bob AA6VB 
Robert L. Chortek
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Re: Topband: FCP vs Gull Wing Elevated Radials

[Wes]

I guess I should have added "useful to me."  At my location, I wouldn't dream of 
having elevated radials less than 6 feet above ground.  Running them through the 
cactus and bushes could be just as difficult as on the ground, especially when 
they need to be considerably longer.  There also needs to be a common-mode choke 
and lightning protection is more difficult and there are some mechanical 
issues.  I'm going to liberally quote from another of Rudy's papers: 
https://rudys.typepad.com/files/qex-mar-apr-2012-1.pdf


"Among amateurs there's been a long running discussion regarding the 
effectiveness of a vertical with an elevated ground system compared to one using 
a large number of radials either buried or lying on the ground surface. NEC 
modeling has indicated that an antenna with four elevated λ/4-radials would be 
as efficient as one with 60 or more λ/4 ground based radials. Over the years 
there have been a number of attempts to confirm or refute the NEC prediction 
experimentally with mixed results. These conflicting results prompted me to 
conduct a series of experiments directly comparing verticals with the two types 
of ground systems. The results of my experiments were reported in a series of 
QEX[1-7] and QST[8] articles (.pdf files of these articles are posted at: 
www.antennasbyn6lf.com ). From these experiments I concluded that at least under 
ideal conditions four elevated λ/4 radials could be equivalent to a large number 
of radials on the ground.


Confirmation of the NEC predictions was very satisfying but that work must not 
be taken uncritically! My articles on that work failed to emphasize how prone to 
asymmetric radial currents and degraded performance the 4-radial elevated system 
is. You cannot just throw up any four radials and get the expected results. I'm 
by no means the first to point out that the performance of a vertical with only 
a few radials is sensitive to even modest asymmetries in the radial fan[10,11, 
12], the presence of nearby conductors or even variations in the soil under the 
fan[9]. These can cause significant changes in the resonant frequency, the 
feedpoint impedance, the radiation pattern and radiation efficiency. These 
problems have been pointed out before but as far as I can tell no detailed 
follow-up has been published. Besides the practical problem of construction 
asymmetries, at many QTH's it's simply not possible to build an ideal elevated 
system even if you wanted to. There may not be enough space or there may be 
obstacles preventing the placement of radials in some areas or other 
limitations. I think it's very possible that some of the conflicting results 
from earlier experiments may well have been due to pattern distortion and 
increased ground loss that the simple 4-wire elevated system is susceptible to.


As the sensitivity of the 4-radial system and it's consequences sunk into my 
consciousness I began to strongly recommend that people use at least 10-12 or 
more radials in elevated systems."


Based on the foregoing, I would be really reluctant to use a couple of gull wing 
radials and call it good.


Wes  N7WS

On 7/25/2019 12:37 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:



On 7/25/2019 12:01 PM, Wes wrote:

As to gull wing radials, Rudy Severns has looked at these too: 
https://www.antennasbyn6lf.com/files/antenna_ground_system_experiment_5.pdf 
Rudy's work is a treasure trove and I think I have everything he's written in 
a folder on my hard drive.  Believe me, considering how difficult it is to 
lay radials in my cactus patch, if I thought gull wings would be useful I 
would have used them.  I don't.




Rudy shows gull wing down only 0.65 dB and comments that "radically
changing the radial geometry does not seem to have a major impact".
So I don't understand your remark that gull wings are not useful.
The reduction in drive impedance can be mitigated by increasing the
height by about 3 feet.  I don't even have cactus but would never again
run radials on the ground now that Rudy has educated us.


Rick N6RK
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Re: Topband: RFI on TB

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 7/25/2019 11:55 AM, Brian Campbell wrote:

You can put me in that group as well. Here are just two recent examples.

I'm with you both, never rule out your vertical!

During one ARRL 160 contest a few years ago, conditions were such that I
used my inverted-L over 90% of the time *even though I had two 580'
switchable-direction Beverages*. Signals at my central USA location were
coming in from all directions.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com


In recent ARRL 160 contests I used my TX vertical on RX for all QSO's
and came in first place, high power, in the Pacific Division.
Must not be too bad.  Worked boatloads of JA's.

I kept trying RX antennas and none of them beat the vertical
in A/B tests.  I really wanted them to.

Rick N6RK
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Re: Topband: FCP vs Gull Wing Elevated Radials

[Mike Waters]

Hi Wes,

I have also always had the highest regard for 99.9% of anything that W8JI
has stated.

However, I feel exactly the same way about K2AV (and, of course, Rudy too).
In this particular case, I am inclined to listen to Guy and the others here
who have discussed and used the FCP.

Probably, the FCP is a little inferior to either lots of radials or a few
(two or more) elevated radials (like I have, which I assume is what is
meant by "gull wings"). But for those who do not have the room for the said
radials, K2AV's FCP is ab-so-lute-ly the way to go, isn't it?

Not to pick on Tom, but he posted his page about silicone dielectric grease
as a rebuttal to what I said about it, based on my particular experience
with the brand of grease I used at the time. That and his article about the
FCP are the only two times that I disagreed with him. :-) I was very lucky
indeed to have him as one of my elmers.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 2:01 PM Wes  wrote:

> Personally, I would and do, avoid a FCP antenna.  W8JI has done some
> analysis on
> these and I value his insight.
> http://www.w8ji.com/fcp_folded_counterpoise_system.htm There is simply
> too much
> handwaving going on to suit me.
>
> As to gull wing radials, Rudy Severns has looked at these too:
> https://www.antennasbyn6lf.com/files/antenna_ground_system_experiment_5.pdf
> Rudy's work is a treasure trove and I think I have everything he's written
> in a
> folder on my hard drive.  Believe me, considering how difficult it is to
> lay
> radials in my cactus patch, if I thought gull wings would be useful I
> would have
> used them.  I don't.
>
> Based on these and other resources, personal modeling and experiment and
> physical constraints, I opted for a ground-mounted 55' vertical,
> Inverted-L fed
> against 18 (so far) 55' insulated, on-the-ground radials.  By serendipity
> the
> radials are resonant at about 1.85 MHz although that was not a design
> goal.
> Instead, I chose radial length be the same as the vertical height and I
> could
> get nine, 55' radials out of a 500' spool of wire with negligible waste.
>
> Wes  N7WS
>
> On 7/25/2019 10:04 AM, Mark K3MSB wrote:
> > This kind of goes with the other thread that has morphed into the FCP
> > topic, but is a bit different.
> >
> > With an FCP feeding the INV-L,  the bottom of the INV-L will be at least
> 10
> > feet off the ground.With my existing trees I can barely get up 50
> feet
> > from the ground.   So, the INV-L will have 40 feet of vertical radiator.
> >
> > Using a pair of resonant gull winged radials feeding the INV-L at the
> > base,  the vertical part will be 50 feet.
> >
> >  From what I’ve read,  the FCP is a better solution over a pair of
> resonant
> > gull wing radials,   but I’ve also read that vertical length of an INV-L
> is
> > important.   So there’s a tradeoff to be considered.
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> > Due to real estate considerations,  I can put up only 2 one-half
> wavelength
> > resonant radials
> >
> > Mark K3MSB
>
>
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Re: Topband: FCP vs Gull Wing Elevated Radials

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 7/25/2019 12:01 PM, Wes wrote:

As to gull wing radials, Rudy Severns has looked at these too: 
https://www.antennasbyn6lf.com/files/antenna_ground_system_experiment_5.pdf 
Rudy's work is a treasure trove and I think I have everything he's 
written in a folder on my hard drive.  Believe me, considering how 
difficult it is to lay radials in my cactus patch, if I thought gull 
wings would be useful I would have used them.  I don't.




Rudy shows gull wing down only 0.65 dB and comments that "radically
changing the radial geometry does not seem to have a major impact".
So I don't understand your remark that gull wings are not useful.
The reduction in drive impedance can be mitigated by increasing the
height by about 3 feet.  I don't even have cactus but would never again
run radials on the ground now that Rudy has educated us.


Rick N6RK
_
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Re: Topband: FCP vs Gull Wing Elevated Radials

[Wes]

Personally, I would and do, avoid a FCP antenna.  W8JI has done some analysis on 
these and I value his insight. 
http://www.w8ji.com/fcp_folded_counterpoise_system.htm There is simply too much 
handwaving going on to suit me.


As to gull wing radials, Rudy Severns has looked at these too: 
https://www.antennasbyn6lf.com/files/antenna_ground_system_experiment_5.pdf 
Rudy's work is a treasure trove and I think I have everything he's written in a 
folder on my hard drive.  Believe me, considering how difficult it is to lay 
radials in my cactus patch, if I thought gull wings would be useful I would have 
used them.  I don't.


Based on these and other resources, personal modeling and experiment and 
physical constraints, I opted for a ground-mounted 55' vertical, Inverted-L fed 
against 18 (so far) 55' insulated, on-the-ground radials.  By serendipity the 
radials are resonant at about 1.85 MHz although that was not a design goal. 
Instead, I chose radial length be the same as the vertical height and I could 
get nine, 55' radials out of a 500' spool of wire with negligible waste.


Wes  N7WS

On 7/25/2019 10:04 AM, Mark K3MSB wrote:

This kind of goes with the other thread that has morphed into the FCP
topic, but is a bit different.

With an FCP feeding the INV-L,  the bottom of the INV-L will be at least 10
feet off the ground.With my existing trees I can barely get up 50 feet
from the ground.   So, the INV-L will have 40 feet of vertical radiator.

Using a pair of resonant gull winged radials feeding the INV-L at the
base,  the vertical part will be 50 feet.

 From what I’ve read,  the FCP is a better solution over a pair of resonant
gull wing radials,   but I’ve also read that vertical length of an INV-L is
important.   So there’s a tradeoff to be considered.

Comments?

Due to real estate considerations,  I can put up only 2 one-half wavelength
resonant radials

Mark K3MSB
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Re: Topband: RFI on TB

[Brian Campbell]

You can put me in that group as well. Here are just two recent examples.

VE3MGY 2018 ARRL 160 -1001 QSOs - QSOs Received on TX antenna alone - 996 (99.5 
%)

VE3MGY 2019 CQ160CW - 938 QSOs - QSOs Received on TX antenna alone - 930 (99.1%)

I usually run diversity in which case I will have a couple of beverages,  
Inverted V, or loop in one ear to choose from and the Inverted L in the other 
ear but if it's relatively quiet on the L ( S1-S2 ) I will just stay there at 
times. I needed RX antennas more at the previous two QTHs but here not so much 
( at least not yet... ) In any case every QTH is different so YMMV...

73,
Brian
VE3MGY


From: Topband  on behalf of Mike Waters 

Sent: July 25, 2019 2:16 PM
To: g...@ka1j.com 
Cc: topband 
Subject: Re: Topband: RFI on TB

I'm with you both, never rule out your vertical!

During one ARRL 160 contest a few years ago, conditions were such that I
used my inverted-L over 90% of the time *even though I had two 580'
switchable-direction Beverages*. Signals at my central USA location were
coming in from all directions.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 12:13 PM Gary Smith  wrote:

> I agree with Ed, never rule it out. Me, I
> tried beverages over my available space
> (Salt marsh with phragmites everywhere)
> and they were more than worthless in this
> specific location. I think between the
> proximity to salt water and the dry leaves
> making static, the beverages were much
> louder than my L.
>
> I tried several Rx options and the 3
> element HI-Z triangular was my first
> genuine success for low band Rx. Loved
> them so much I bought an 8 element and now
> use the 8 & 3 for diversity with the K3s.
> Best choice I made.
>
> There are times though when I listen to
> the transmit antenna and hear a specific
> signal the best. Very rare, but it
> happens.
>
> Just my 2 pence.
>
> 73, Gary KA1J
>
> > I use beverage "almost" all the time for receive on 160M.  However,
> > there are times, clearly a minority, when listening on my phased array
> > of 2 verticals is better.  When conditions are super quiet in the
> > winter and signals are weak from a very distant station.  Don't rule
> > out your Transmit antenna all the time.
> >
> > 73
> > Ed  N1UR
>
>
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Re: Topband: RFI on TB

[Mike Waters]

I'm with you both, never rule out your vertical!

During one ARRL 160 contest a few years ago, conditions were such that I
used my inverted-L over 90% of the time *even though I had two 580'
switchable-direction Beverages*. Signals at my central USA location were
coming in from all directions.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 12:13 PM Gary Smith  wrote:

> I agree with Ed, never rule it out. Me, I
> tried beverages over my available space
> (Salt marsh with phragmites everywhere)
> and they were more than worthless in this
> specific location. I think between the
> proximity to salt water and the dry leaves
> making static, the beverages were much
> louder than my L.
>
> I tried several Rx options and the 3
> element HI-Z triangular was my first
> genuine success for low band Rx. Loved
> them so much I bought an 8 element and now
> use the 8 & 3 for diversity with the K3s.
> Best choice I made.
>
> There are times though when I listen to
> the transmit antenna and hear a specific
> signal the best. Very rare, but it
> happens.
>
> Just my 2 pence.
>
> 73, Gary KA1J
>
> > I use beverage "almost" all the time for receive on 160M.  However,
> > there are times, clearly a minority, when listening on my phased array
> > of 2 verticals is better.  When conditions are super quiet in the
> > winter and signals are weak from a very distant station.  Don't rule
> > out your Transmit antenna all the time.
> >
> > 73
> > Ed  N1UR
>
>
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Re: Topband: FCP vs Gull Wing Elevated Radials

[donovanf]

Hi Mark, 


I suspect the current -- and hence the radiation -- from the bottom of 
the vertical radiator is somewhat suppressed by proximity to gull wing 
radials. 


When I first installed a 160 vertical using two gull-wing resonant 
radials eight feet high I had to increase height of the vertical radiator 
to achieve resonance at 1830 kHz. I had to shorten the radiator to 
the classic length w hen I later replaced the gull wing radials with sixty 
120 foot radials laid on the ground. 



A little work in EZNEC would shed some light on this. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Mark K3MSB"  
To: "topBand List"  
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 5:04:33 PM 
Subject: Topband: FCP vs Gull Wing Elevated Radials 

This kind of goes with the other thread that has morphed into the FCP 
topic, but is a bit different. 

With an FCP feeding the INV-L, the bottom of the INV-L will be at least 10 
feet off the ground. With my existing trees I can barely get up 50 feet 
from the ground. So, the INV-L will have 40 feet of vertical radiator. 

Using a pair of resonant gull winged radials feeding the INV-L at the 
base, the vertical part will be 50 feet. 

From what I’ve read, the FCP is a better solution over a pair of resonant 
gull wing radials, but I’ve also read that vertical length of an INV-L is 
important. So there’s a tradeoff to be considered. 

Comments? 

Due to real estate considerations, I can put up only 2 one-half wavelength 
resonant radials 

Mark K3MSB 
_ 
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Re: Topband: RFI on TB

[Gary Smith]

I agree with Ed, never rule it out. Me, I 
tried beverages over my available space 
(Salt marsh with phragmites everywhere) 
and they were more than worthless in this 
specific location. I think between the 
proximity to salt water and the dry leaves 
making static, the beverages were much 
louder than my L.

I tried several Rx options and the 3 
element HI-Z triangular was my first 
genuine success for low band Rx. Loved 
them so much I bought an 8 element and now 
use the 8 & 3 for diversity with the K3s. 
Best choice I made. 

There are times though when I listen to 
the transmit antenna and hear a specific 
signal the best. Very rare, but it 
happens.

Just my 2 pence.

73,

Gary
KA1J
  
> I use beverage "almost" all the time for receive on 160M.  However,
> there are times, clearly a minority, when listening on my phased array
> of 2 verticals is better.  When conditions are super quiet in the
> winter and signals are weak from a very distant station.  Don't rule
> out your Transmit antenna all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 73
> 
> 
> 
> Ed  N1UR
> 
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
> 



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Topband: FCP vs Gull Wing Elevated Radials

[Mark K3MSB]

This kind of goes with the other thread that has morphed into the FCP
topic, but is a bit different.

With an FCP feeding the INV-L,  the bottom of the INV-L will be at least 10
feet off the ground.With my existing trees I can barely get up 50 feet
from the ground.   So, the INV-L will have 40 feet of vertical radiator.

Using a pair of resonant gull winged radials feeding the INV-L at the
base,  the vertical part will be 50 feet.

From what I’ve read,  the FCP is a better solution over a pair of resonant
gull wing radials,   but I’ve also read that vertical length of an INV-L is
important.   So there’s a tradeoff to be considered.

Comments?

Due to real estate considerations,  I can put up only 2 one-half wavelength
resonant radials

Mark K3MSB
_
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Re: Topband: RFI on TB

[Ed Sawyer]

I use beverage "almost" all the time for receive on 160M.  However, there
are times, clearly a minority, when listening on my phased array of 2
verticals is better.  When conditions are super quiet in the winter and
signals are weak from a very distant station.  Don't rule out your Transmit
antenna all the time.

 

73

 

Ed  N1UR

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Re: Topband: RFI on TB

[FZ Bruce]

I am using it on a base insulated vertical antenna. the relay closes
to connect it on transmit.An L would be the same. The L antenna would
float while listening You need to know your transceiver well and
program it to close the relay before transmitting. Hot switching is
destructive.If in doubt ask your other local DXers.
73
Bruce K1FZ

-From: "WW3S" 
To: "FZ Bruce"
Cc: "Mark K3MSB", "Rob Atkinson", "CUTTER DAVID", "TopBand List", "Guy
Olinger K2AV"
Sent: Thursday July 25 2019 12:15:35PM
Subject: Re: Topband: RFI on TB

How are you using this on the L ? NO on receive, then apply voltage to
close it on TX ? When open , does the L float or go to ground?

 Sent from my iPad

 > On Jul 25, 2019, at 8:36 AM, FZ Bruce  wrote:
 > 
 > Mark
 > Although I am using the RF Parts relay on transmit verticals they
work
 > great. They are 12 volt DC coils and are marked so on the relay. I
 > test checked mine with a little 9 volt battery and pulls great.In
the
 > advertisement blog it says " Rated coil voltage VDC: 26.5 " This is
an
 > advertising error. 
 > 
 > https://www.rfparts.com/vhc3-12v.html [1] [1]
 > 
 > 73Bruce-k1fz
 > 
 > -From: "Mark K3MSB" 
 > To: "CUTTER DAVID"
 > Cc: "Rob Atkinson", "TopBand List", "Guy Olinger K2AV"
 > Sent: Thursday July 25 2019 7:59:32AM
 > Subject: Re: Topband: RFI on TB
 > 
 > I’d be interested in hear about this also. I’ve always used
ground
 > radials for my INV-L but this year I’d like to try an FCP.
 > 
 > I’ve read that the INV-L as well as the FCP need to be floated
 > during
 > receive, which means two relays at the INV-L.
 > 
 > 73 Mark K3MSB
 > 
 > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 4:11 AM CUTTER DAVID via Topband <
 > topband@contesting.com> wrote:
 > 
 >> Guy
 >> Slightly OT, but how do you deal with re-radiation from your
 > inverted L?
 >> I'm about to erect one of your inverted L on FCP and my rx loops
 > are about
 >> 50m away in the other corner of the field. Is that far enough?
 >> David G3UNA/G6CP
 >> 
 >>> On 24 July 2019 at 07:13 Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>> I gotta agree with Rob. An inverted L aerial wire will hear ALL
 > the noise
 >>> that is around. Mine sure does. RX antenna will help enormously
 > if there
 >> is
 >>> a place to put one that does not get the noise second hand off
 > the L. Not
 >>> enough room? A bit complicated, but "repeated" noise off the L
 > can be
 >> dealt
 >>> with.
 >>> 
 >>> The worst noises around here heard on my L were all repaired by
 > the power
 >>> company. The nastiest noise was very hard to find, I actually
 > never
 >> "found"
 >>> it by looking for it. Noise turned out to be from a bad splice in
 > an
 >>> underground 13 kV cable going from the 13 kV delta overhead out
 > on US 64
 >> to
 >>> the transformer for my eastern neighbor and next house over. It
 > would
 >> come
 >>> and go with extended cold weather, but never would correlate to
 > sunlight
 >> or
 >>> darkness. I would hear it next to my transformer walking around
 > with my
 >>> battery K2 and a rubber ducky. It would never locate to up on a
 > pole
 >> (only
 >>> power noise that didn't).
 >>> 
 >>> Finally the splice hard-arced, exploding the fuse up on the pole
 > for the
 >>> neighbor's 13 kV feed, and taking those two houses off the grid.
 > The
 >> noise
 >>> went away with the cannon shot noise. Blessed quiet on 160 and
 > 80. I had
 >>> put up with that for almost four years.
 >>> 
 >>> In the end, Duke Energy completely reran his AND my buried 13kV
 > lines,
 >> and
 >>> replaced his transformer. 35 years in the ground, 35 year old
 > cable
 >> design
 >>> and materials, and deficient in THEIR opinion. Was really fun to
 > watch
 >> them
 >>> use this super-neat burrowing setup that went right UNDER the
 > woods and
 >> the
 >>> creek (whole other story). Now I can hear the lesser noises on my
 > L from
 >>> all over Apex and Cary :>) Need RX antenna for sure. That way I
 > don't
 >> have
 >>> to listen to the Cary, NC noise (NE) at the same time as the
 > generally
 >>> closer and louder Apex, NC noise (S, SE).
 >>> 
 >>> 73, Guy K2AV
 >>> 
 >>> On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 9:37 AM Rob Atkinson 
 >> wrote:
 >>> 
 > Over past few months, I have picked up an S5-S7 noise
 > signature on
 >> my TB
  inv
 > L antenna with K2AV FCP system.
  
  I would not use an inverted L for receiving. Unusable for rx at
 > my
  QTH but FB for transmitting.
  
  73
  Rob
  K5UJ
  _
  Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [2] [2]
-
 > Topband
  Reflector
  
 >>> _
 >>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [3] [3] -
 > Topband
 >> Reflector
 >> _
 >> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [4] [4] -
 > Topband
 >> Reflector
 >> 
 > _
 > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [5] [5] -
Topband
 > Refle

Re: Topband: RFI on TB

[WW3S]

How are you using this on the L ? NO on receive, then apply voltage to close it 
on TX ? When open , does the L float or go to ground?

Sent from my iPad

> On Jul 25, 2019, at 8:36 AM, FZ Bruce  wrote:
> 
> Mark
> Although I am using the RF Parts relay on transmit verticals they work
> great. They are 12 volt DC coils and are marked so on the relay. I
> test checked mine with a little 9 volt battery and pulls great.In the
> advertisement blog it says " Rated coil voltage VDC: 26.5 " This is an
> advertising error. 
> 
> https://www.rfparts.com/vhc3-12v.html [1]
> 
> 73Bruce-k1fz
> 
>-From: "Mark K3MSB" 
> To: "CUTTER DAVID"
> Cc: "Rob Atkinson", "TopBand List", "Guy Olinger K2AV"
> Sent: Thursday July 25 2019 7:59:32AM
> Subject: Re: Topband: RFI on TB
> 
> I’d be interested in hear about this also. I’ve always used ground
> radials for my INV-L but this year I’d like to try an FCP.
> 
> I’ve read that the INV-L as well as the FCP need to be floated
> during
> receive, which means two relays at the INV-L.
> 
> 73 Mark K3MSB
> 
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 4:11 AM CUTTER DAVID via Topband <
> topband@contesting.com> wrote:
> 
>> Guy
>> Slightly OT, but how do you deal with re-radiation from your
> inverted L?
>> I'm about to erect one of your inverted L on FCP and my rx loops
> are about
>> 50m away in the other corner of the field. Is that far enough?
>> David G3UNA/G6CP
>> 
>>> On 24 July 2019 at 07:13 Guy Olinger K2AV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I gotta agree with Rob. An inverted L aerial wire will hear ALL
> the noise
>>> that is around. Mine sure does. RX antenna will help enormously
> if there
>> is
>>> a place to put one that does not get the noise second hand off
> the L. Not
>>> enough room? A bit complicated, but "repeated" noise off the L
> can be
>> dealt
>>> with.
>>> 
>>> The worst noises around here heard on my L were all repaired by
> the power
>>> company. The nastiest noise was very hard to find, I actually
> never
>> "found"
>>> it by looking for it. Noise turned out to be from a bad splice in
> an
>>> underground 13 kV cable going from the 13 kV delta overhead out
> on US 64
>> to
>>> the transformer for my eastern neighbor and next house over. It
> would
>> come
>>> and go with extended cold weather, but never would correlate to
> sunlight
>> or
>>> darkness. I would hear it next to my transformer walking around
> with my
>>> battery K2 and a rubber ducky. It would never locate to up on a
> pole
>> (only
>>> power noise that didn't).
>>> 
>>> Finally the splice hard-arced, exploding the fuse up on the pole
> for the
>>> neighbor's 13 kV feed, and taking those two houses off the grid.
> The
>> noise
>>> went away with the cannon shot noise. Blessed quiet on 160 and
> 80. I had
>>> put up with that for almost four years.
>>> 
>>> In the end, Duke Energy completely reran his AND my buried 13kV
> lines,
>> and
>>> replaced his transformer. 35 years in the ground, 35 year old
> cable
>> design
>>> and materials, and deficient in THEIR opinion. Was really fun to
> watch
>> them
>>> use this super-neat burrowing setup that went right UNDER the
> woods and
>> the
>>> creek (whole other story). Now I can hear the lesser noises on my
> L from
>>> all over Apex and Cary :>) Need RX antenna for sure. That way I
> don't
>> have
>>> to listen to the Cary, NC noise (NE) at the same time as the
> generally
>>> closer and louder Apex, NC noise (S, SE).
>>> 
>>> 73, Guy K2AV
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 9:37 AM Rob Atkinson 
>> wrote:
>>> 
> Over past few months, I have picked up an S5-S7 noise
> signature on
>> my TB
 inv
> L antenna with K2AV FCP system.
 
 I would not use an inverted L for receiving. Unusable for rx at
> my
 QTH but FB for transmitting.
 
 73
 Rob
 K5UJ
 _
 Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [2] -
> Topband
 Reflector
 
>>> _
>>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [3] -
> Topband
>> Reflector
>> _
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [4] -
> Topband
>> Reflector
>> 
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [5] - Topband
> Reflector
> 
> 
> Links:
> --
> [1] https://www.rfparts.com/vhc3-12v.html
> [2] http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> [3] http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> [4] http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> [5] http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> 
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
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Re: Topband: RFI on TB

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Hi Mark,

Response to David farther down.

Short answer:  Just one relay, really.

Long answer:

There is a lot of misinformation about FCP's floating around out there,
essentially because most don't know anything at all about FCP's and a
certain few of those keep talking anyway. I don't have a lot of sympathy,
because access to k2av.com is without charge, no entrance exams, and no
passport inspection. International readers constitute the majority of
12,400+ unique readers on k2av.com since September 2017, and they seem to
do well enough with their English skills or Google Translate.

What you have read about separately disconnecting the FCP is hocus for two
reasons:

1)

**IF** you **ARE** using the specified isolation transformer (IsoT) or a
close imitation per the specs on k2av.com, then when the Inv L is
disconnected from the IsoT by a relay, the FCP is ALSO effectively
disconnected.

With the relay open, no signal current can flow through the IsoT antenna
side winding, nothing to flow INTO. If no current in the primary, the
effective R terminating the FCP is very high, nearly as high as it is for
the Inv L.

If you are using some alternate feed system because you don't like IsoT's
for whatever reason, then the answer depends on what you did instead of the
k2av.com specs.

2)

In and of itself, the FCP is really, really, really bad at radiating to the
far field. That's 10 dB per "really". An FCP is a counterpoise, that is to
say an energy reservoir and an awful radiator. Model a pair of FCP's in
series, in free space, at right angles with centers right above one
another. The folding trick employed by an FCP is so good, that it radiates
between -29 and -31 dBi to the far field depending on exactly how the wires
are run. Yes that's MINUS 29 dBi to MINUS 31 dBi (EZNEC Pro/4 v.6, NEC4.2
double precision engine). Let's call that -30 dBi because 1/1000 is
convenient for arithmetic.

If you could get a pair of FCP's into low earth orbit and load up 1500
watts into them, only 1/1000 of that would be radiated as RF. That's 1.5
watts radiated RF and 1498.5 watts radiated as heat from the wire
resistance of the FCP's.

If it is bad at radiating RF, it follows that it will be doubly bad at
re-radiation. To re-radiate, it must first receive. As bad as it is at
radiating, according to physics, it will equally be at receiving. So first
it receives poorly, further diminished by poorly radiating, hence doubly
bad at re-radiation.

73, Guy K2AV

--

Hi, David

RX antennas being affected by re-radiation from a TX antenna is indeed very
much case-by-case, to use a term from earlier in this thread. But the test
is easy. Don't start by installing the relay. The test is too easy.

Find a noisy place on your RX antenna. Somehow get that measured. I'd use
my P3 in various modes. Get your measurements/snapshots, etc.  Then real
quick run out and disconnect the L from the IsoT. Run real quick back in.
Re-listen, re-measure and compare to see if the noise went down. Repeat
this test a good number of times on different days, different conditions,
different orientations, different times of day, etc.

Only start on the relay business if you have a benefit in hand that means
something to YOU,  that is actually improved to a satisfactory degree by
disconnecting the L from the Iso T.

Operating with it is tricky because you don't want your expensive
transceiver/amp transmitting into an open. It's also not good for the relay
contacts to "hot switch". So whatever you might do has to have switching
solved day one.

But it's worth mentioning, and worth testing. Not intended to discourage
getting RX antenna.

73, Guy K2AV
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: RFI on TB

[Tom]

Mark,  

Are you ready to take the red pill or the blue pill?

If you take the red, be prepared to spend endless time and money, and the 
experts on this list will help guide you down the 160m rx rabbit hole.

I was where you were a few years ago... then I started with a k9ay loop, slinky 
antennas, BOGs,  short beverages, K1FZ beverages running into neighbors yards, 
hi-z verticals, NCC-2’s, with no end in sight.

Somehow working stations like VI9NI on 160 at sunrise with no other callers 
make it all worthwhile!

Good Luck
Tom W1TC

> On Jul 24, 2019, at 5:34 PM, Mark - N5OT  wrote:
> 
> This has got to be on a case-by case basis.  I don't have any listening 
> antennas, so i listen on my transmit vertical.  It works fine.  For me.  Most 
> of the time.
> 
> Would I hear more stuff with listening antennas?  I bet the answer is yes 
> under certain conditions.
> 
> 73 - Mark N5OT
> 
> 
>> On 7/24/2019 1:13 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>> I gotta agree with Rob. An inverted L aerial wire will hear ALL the noise
>> that is around. Mine sure does. RX antenna will help enormously if there is
>> a place to put one that does not get the noise second hand off the L. Not
>> enough room? A bit complicated, but "repeated" noise off the L can be dealt
>> with.
>> 
>> The worst noises around here heard on my L were all repaired by the power
>> company. The nastiest noise was very hard to find, I actually never "found"
>> it by looking for it. Noise turned out to be from a bad splice in an
>> underground 13 kV cable going from the 13 kV delta overhead out on US 64 to
>> the transformer for my eastern neighbor and next house over. It would come
>> and go with extended cold weather, but never would correlate to sunlight or
>> darkness. I would hear it next to my transformer walking around with my
>> battery K2 and a rubber ducky. It would never locate to up on a pole (only
>> power noise that didn't).
>> 
>> Finally the splice hard-arced, exploding the fuse up on the pole for the
>> neighbor's 13 kV feed, and taking those two houses off the grid. The noise
>> went away with the cannon shot noise. Blessed quiet on 160 and 80. I had
>> put up with that for almost four years.
>> 
>> In the end, Duke Energy completely reran his AND my buried 13kV lines, and
>> replaced his transformer. 35 years in the ground, 35 year old cable design
>> and materials, and deficient in THEIR opinion. Was really fun to watch them
>> use this super-neat burrowing setup that went right UNDER the woods and the
>> creek (whole other story). Now I can hear the lesser noises on my L from
>> all over Apex and Cary :>)  Need RX antenna for sure. That way I don't have
>> to listen to the Cary, NC noise (NE) at the same time as the generally
>> closer and louder Apex, NC noise (S, SE).
>> 
>> 73, Guy K2AV
>> 
>> On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 9:37 AM Rob Atkinson  wrote:
>> 
 Over past few months, I have picked up an S5-S7 noise signature on my TB
>>> inv
 L antenna with K2AV FCP system.
>>> I would not use an inverted L for receiving.  Unusable for rx at my
>>> QTH but FB for transmitting.
>>> 
>>> 73
>>> Rob
>>> K5UJ
>>> _
>>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>>> Reflector
>>> 
>> _
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
>> 
> 
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
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Re: Topband: RFI on TB

[Rob Atkinson]

>This has got to be on a case-by case basis.  I don't have any listening 
>antennas, so i listen on my transmit vertical.  It works fine.  For me.  Most 
>of the time. Would I hear more stuff with listening antennas?  I bet the 
>answer is yes under certain conditions.

Yes under certain circumstances using the tx antenna is okay for rx,
the most obvious example being local communications with a ham a few
miles away.  But I don't know of any serious 160 m. operator who does
not have separate receive antennas.  The reason is that the
reciprocity that allows the tx antenna to also work on rx starts to
break down as we go lower in frequency, beginning on 75 m. but by the
time we tune down to medium wave, it is very noticeable and receiving
becomes more about signal over noise than pure signal strength.  As
new hams, we probably all had the experience of mistakenly tuning
across 160 with the wrong antenna, maybe a 40 m. dipole, and wow, we
hear a lot.   We excitedly hooked up our 160 m. antenna only to hear
nothing, or a lot less.  What went wrong?  Ah, the education begins.

The other problem with the same tx/rx antenna for anyone except the
few lucky ones with no noise sources, is transmitting on top of a QSO
without realizing it.

73
Rob
K5UJ
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: RFI on TB

[FZ Bruce]

Mark
Although I am using the RF Parts relay on transmit verticals they work
great. They are 12 volt DC coils and are marked so on the relay. I
test checked mine with a little 9 volt battery and pulls great.In the
advertisement blog it says " Rated coil voltage VDC: 26.5 " This is an
advertising error. 

https://www.rfparts.com/vhc3-12v.html [1]

73Bruce-k1fz

-From: "Mark K3MSB" 
To: "CUTTER DAVID"
Cc: "Rob Atkinson", "TopBand List", "Guy Olinger K2AV"
Sent: Thursday July 25 2019 7:59:32AM
Subject: Re: Topband: RFI on TB

I’d be interested in hear about this also. I’ve always used ground
 radials for my INV-L but this year I’d like to try an FCP.

 I’ve read that the INV-L as well as the FCP need to be floated
during
 receive, which means two relays at the INV-L.

 73 Mark K3MSB

 On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 4:11 AM CUTTER DAVID via Topband <
 topband@contesting.com> wrote:

 > Guy
 > Slightly OT, but how do you deal with re-radiation from your
inverted L?
 > I'm about to erect one of your inverted L on FCP and my rx loops
are about
 > 50m away in the other corner of the field. Is that far enough?
 > David G3UNA/G6CP
 >
 > > On 24 July 2019 at 07:13 Guy Olinger K2AV  wrote:
 > >
 > >
 > > I gotta agree with Rob. An inverted L aerial wire will hear ALL
the noise
 > > that is around. Mine sure does. RX antenna will help enormously
if there
 > is
 > > a place to put one that does not get the noise second hand off
the L. Not
 > > enough room? A bit complicated, but "repeated" noise off the L
can be
 > dealt
 > > with.
 > >
 > > The worst noises around here heard on my L were all repaired by
the power
 > > company. The nastiest noise was very hard to find, I actually
never
 > "found"
 > > it by looking for it. Noise turned out to be from a bad splice in
an
 > > underground 13 kV cable going from the 13 kV delta overhead out
on US 64
 > to
 > > the transformer for my eastern neighbor and next house over. It
would
 > come
 > > and go with extended cold weather, but never would correlate to
sunlight
 > or
 > > darkness. I would hear it next to my transformer walking around
with my
 > > battery K2 and a rubber ducky. It would never locate to up on a
pole
 > (only
 > > power noise that didn't).
 > >
 > > Finally the splice hard-arced, exploding the fuse up on the pole
for the
 > > neighbor's 13 kV feed, and taking those two houses off the grid.
The
 > noise
 > > went away with the cannon shot noise. Blessed quiet on 160 and
80. I had
 > > put up with that for almost four years.
 > >
 > > In the end, Duke Energy completely reran his AND my buried 13kV
lines,
 > and
 > > replaced his transformer. 35 years in the ground, 35 year old
cable
 > design
 > > and materials, and deficient in THEIR opinion. Was really fun to
watch
 > them
 > > use this super-neat burrowing setup that went right UNDER the
woods and
 > the
 > > creek (whole other story). Now I can hear the lesser noises on my
L from
 > > all over Apex and Cary :>) Need RX antenna for sure. That way I
don't
 > have
 > > to listen to the Cary, NC noise (NE) at the same time as the
generally
 > > closer and louder Apex, NC noise (S, SE).
 > >
 > > 73, Guy K2AV
 > >
 > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 9:37 AM Rob Atkinson 
 > wrote:
 > >
 > > > > Over past few months, I have picked up an S5-S7 noise
signature on
 > my TB
 > > > inv
 > > > > L antenna with K2AV FCP system.
 > > >
 > > > I would not use an inverted L for receiving. Unusable for rx at
my
 > > > QTH but FB for transmitting.
 > > >
 > > > 73
 > > > Rob
 > > > K5UJ
 > > > _
 > > > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [2] -
Topband
 > > > Reflector
 > > >
 > > _
 > > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [3] -
Topband
 > Reflector
 > _
 > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [4] -
Topband
 > Reflector
 >
 _
 Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [5] - Topband
Reflector
 

Links:
--
[1] https://www.rfparts.com/vhc3-12v.html
[2] http://www.contesting.com/_topband
[3] http://www.contesting.com/_topband
[4] http://www.contesting.com/_topband
[5] http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: RFI on TB

[Mark K3MSB]

I’d be interested in hear about this also.   I’ve always used ground
radials for my INV-L but this year I’d like to try an FCP.

I’ve read that the INV-L as well as the FCP need to be floated during
receive,  which means two relays at the INV-L.

 73 Mark K3MSB

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 4:11 AM CUTTER DAVID via Topband <
topband@contesting.com> wrote:

> Guy
> Slightly OT, but how do you deal with re-radiation from your inverted L?
> I'm about to erect one of your inverted L on FCP and my rx loops are about
> 50m away in the other corner of the field. Is that far enough?
> David G3UNA/G6CP
>
> > On 24 July 2019 at 07:13 Guy Olinger K2AV  wrote:
> >
> >
> > I gotta agree with Rob. An inverted L aerial wire will hear ALL the noise
> > that is around. Mine sure does. RX antenna will help enormously if there
> is
> > a place to put one that does not get the noise second hand off the L. Not
> > enough room? A bit complicated, but "repeated" noise off the L can be
> dealt
> > with.
> >
> > The worst noises around here heard on my L were all repaired by the power
> > company. The nastiest noise was very hard to find, I actually never
> "found"
> > it by looking for it. Noise turned out to be from a bad splice in an
> > underground 13 kV cable going from the 13 kV delta overhead out on US 64
> to
> > the transformer for my eastern neighbor and next house over. It would
> come
> > and go with extended cold weather, but never would correlate to sunlight
> or
> > darkness. I would hear it next to my transformer walking around with my
> > battery K2 and a rubber ducky. It would never locate to up on a pole
> (only
> > power noise that didn't).
> >
> > Finally the splice hard-arced, exploding the fuse up on the pole for the
> > neighbor's 13 kV feed, and taking those two houses off the grid. The
> noise
> > went away with the cannon shot noise. Blessed quiet on 160 and 80. I had
> > put up with that for almost four years.
> >
> > In the end, Duke Energy completely reran his AND my buried 13kV lines,
> and
> > replaced his transformer. 35 years in the ground, 35 year old cable
> design
> > and materials, and deficient in THEIR opinion. Was really fun to watch
> them
> > use this super-neat burrowing setup that went right UNDER the woods and
> the
> > creek (whole other story). Now I can hear the lesser noises on my L from
> > all over Apex and Cary :>)  Need RX antenna for sure. That way I don't
> have
> > to listen to the Cary, NC noise (NE) at the same time as the generally
> > closer and louder Apex, NC noise (S, SE).
> >
> > 73, Guy K2AV
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 9:37 AM Rob Atkinson 
> wrote:
> >
> > > > Over past few months, I have picked up an S5-S7 noise signature on
> my TB
> > > inv
> > > > L antenna with K2AV FCP system.
> > >
> > > I would not use an inverted L for receiving.  Unusable for rx at my
> > > QTH but FB for transmitting.
> > >
> > > 73
> > > Rob
> > > K5UJ
> > > _
> > > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > > Reflector
> > >
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: RFI on TB

[CUTTER DAVID via Topband]

Guy
Slightly OT, but how do you deal with re-radiation from your inverted L?  
I'm about to erect one of your inverted L on FCP and my rx loops are about 50m 
away in the other corner of the field. Is that far enough?
David G3UNA/G6CP

> On 24 July 2019 at 07:13 Guy Olinger K2AV  wrote:
> 
> 
> I gotta agree with Rob. An inverted L aerial wire will hear ALL the noise
> that is around. Mine sure does. RX antenna will help enormously if there is
> a place to put one that does not get the noise second hand off the L. Not
> enough room? A bit complicated, but "repeated" noise off the L can be dealt
> with.
> 
> The worst noises around here heard on my L were all repaired by the power
> company. The nastiest noise was very hard to find, I actually never "found"
> it by looking for it. Noise turned out to be from a bad splice in an
> underground 13 kV cable going from the 13 kV delta overhead out on US 64 to
> the transformer for my eastern neighbor and next house over. It would come
> and go with extended cold weather, but never would correlate to sunlight or
> darkness. I would hear it next to my transformer walking around with my
> battery K2 and a rubber ducky. It would never locate to up on a pole (only
> power noise that didn't).
> 
> Finally the splice hard-arced, exploding the fuse up on the pole for the
> neighbor's 13 kV feed, and taking those two houses off the grid. The noise
> went away with the cannon shot noise. Blessed quiet on 160 and 80. I had
> put up with that for almost four years.
> 
> In the end, Duke Energy completely reran his AND my buried 13kV lines, and
> replaced his transformer. 35 years in the ground, 35 year old cable design
> and materials, and deficient in THEIR opinion. Was really fun to watch them
> use this super-neat burrowing setup that went right UNDER the woods and the
> creek (whole other story). Now I can hear the lesser noises on my L from
> all over Apex and Cary :>)  Need RX antenna for sure. That way I don't have
> to listen to the Cary, NC noise (NE) at the same time as the generally
> closer and louder Apex, NC noise (S, SE).
> 
> 73, Guy K2AV
> 
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 9:37 AM Rob Atkinson  wrote:
> 
> > > Over past few months, I have picked up an S5-S7 noise signature on my TB
> > inv
> > > L antenna with K2AV FCP system.
> >
> > I would not use an inverted L for receiving.  Unusable for rx at my
> > QTH but FB for transmitting.
> >
> > 73
> > Rob
> > K5UJ
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
> >
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
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