Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
It's much more useful to think of RX loop antennas as having directivity rather than "gain." The full size flag has a rather broad pattern of around +/- 60 degrees so that it can be pointed to improve SNR vs directly towards the heading of interest. If a pre-amp increases the signal and noise by the same amount, you don't need the pre-amp. My flag is extremely quiet vs my shunt fed tower vertical. The F/S and F/B ratios are excellent. The SNR improvement over the vertical is dramatic. 73 - Steve WB6RSE On Aug 1, 2018, at 2:49 PM, Chuck Hutton wrote: But that gain is in the vicinity of small pennants, f;ags and others. I often use smaller loops and flags with a preamp. At 160 and nearby, I believe my preamps (Clifton Labs, ARR etc) have goodenough IM and NF properties to not affect results in a negative way. Having said that, the pattern is pretty lousy. I wouldn't bother with the LOG unless I was desperate man in a desperate situation. Chuck From: Topband on behalf of Mike Waters Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 1:15 PM To: Nick Hall-Patch Cc: topband Subject: Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question That's a terrible RX antenna. Did you see the losses?! Minus-forty-something dB on 160. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com<http://www.w0btu.com> WØBTU's Radio Communication Technical Articles and File ...<http://www.w0btu.com/> www.w0btu.com Amateur radio technical information by Mike Waters, W0BTU On Wed, Aug 1, 2018, 3:00 PM Nick Hall-Patch wrote: > DuckDuckGo brought up this at the top of its search: > http://kk5jy.net/LoG/ > > Presumably that is what you mean? > > best wishes, > > Nick > VE7DXR > > At 19:04 2018-08-01, CUTTER DAVID via Topband wrote: >> Drifting the thread slightly: I read an article recently regarding 2 >> loops of 15ft square separated by 15ft which the author called Loop >> On Ground, LOG. He claimed good results on receive over a period of >> a year. It was very low gain but had directional properties and was >> said to be quiet.I can't lay my hands on the site just now, but >> it might be of interest. >> >> David G3UNA > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
But that gain is in the vicinity of small pennants, f;ags and others. I often use smaller loops and flags with a preamp. At 160 and nearby, I believe my preamps (Clifton Labs, ARR etc) have goodenough IM and NF properties to not affect results in a negative way. Having said that, the pattern is pretty lousy. I wouldn't bother with the LOG unless I was desperate man in a desperate situation. Chuck From: Topband on behalf of Mike Waters Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 1:15 PM To: Nick Hall-Patch Cc: topband Subject: Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question That's a terrible RX antenna. Did you see the losses?! Minus-forty-something dB on 160. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com<http://www.w0btu.com> WØBTU's Radio Communication Technical Articles and File ...<http://www.w0btu.com/> www.w0btu.com Amateur radio technical information by Mike Waters, W0BTU On Wed, Aug 1, 2018, 3:00 PM Nick Hall-Patch wrote: > DuckDuckGo brought up this at the top of its search: > http://kk5jy.net/LoG/ > > Presumably that is what you mean? > > best wishes, > > Nick > VE7DXR > > At 19:04 2018-08-01, CUTTER DAVID via Topband wrote: > >Drifting the thread slightly: I read an article recently regarding 2 > >loops of 15ft square separated by 15ft which the author called Loop > >On Ground, LOG. He claimed good results on receive over a period of > >a year. It was very low gain but had directional properties and was > >said to be quiet.I can't lay my hands on the site just now, but > >it might be of interest. > > > >David G3UNA > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
tnx I'll look at that David G3UNA From: Carl Luetzelschwab [mailto:carlluetzelsch...@gmail.com] Sent: 02 August 2018 12:29 To: David Cutter Cc: Joe Subich, W4TV; topBand List Subject: Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question David, The NEC-4.2 engine appears to give very good results with buried and close-to-ground wires (the NEC-4.1 engine compares favorably, too). It is instructive to read N6LF's July/August 2016 QEX article on his modeling efforts with buried and close-to-ground wires. You can get Rudy's article at http://rudys.typepad.com/files/qexjul-aug-2016-bog.pdf. Carl K9LA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
David, The NEC-4.2 engine appears to give very good results with buried and close-to-ground wires (the NEC-4.1 engine compares favorably, too). It is instructive to read N6LF's July/August 2016 QEX article on his modeling efforts with buried and close-to-ground wires. You can get Rudy's article at http://rudys.typepad.com/files/qexjul-aug-2016-bog.pdf. Carl K9LA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
I am at a loss to know how to model it with any confidence, for wires close to or on the ground. David G3UNA -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Carl Luetzelschwab Sent: 01 August 2018 23:02 To: Joe Subich, W4TV; topBand List Subject: Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question Joe, > However, the Waller Flag is a dual loop that trades off signal for > pattern. I agree. But I believe it's gain is very low mostly because it's made up of electrically very small loops. A very small loop has its main lobes in the plane of the loop - not perpendicular to the plane of the loop as in a quarter-wave-on-a-side loop in a Quad antenna. When a very small loop is mounted horizontally, there's a null in the pattern towards the ground. So even though it's mounted horizontally, it is less susceptible to the effects of the ground. > The LOG is a horizontally polarized antenna nearly on the "boundary" > where the horizontally polarized signal goes to zero. The better the > ground (higher conductivity), the worse (lower) the signal level from > the LOG (thank you Dr. Maxwell). I also agree with Dr. Maxwell. But a very small loop mounted horizontally is not like a big antenna mounted horizontally. And Nick is correct - KK5JY shows a two-loop system farther on down - it's kind of approaching a horizontal Waller Flag. Carl K9LA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
Thanks for pointing that out. However, I didn't intend to word it the way I did, implying that it was terrible because of its low gain. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Wed, Aug 1, 2018, 4:13 PM Carl Luetzelschwab wrote: > > Note that the KK5JY antenna is a single loop, not a double loop as G3UNA > referenced. > > > That's a terrible RX antenna. Did you see the losses?! > > Minus-forty-something dB on 160. > > That gain value is in the neighborhood of what a Waller Flag does. > > Carl K9LA > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
Joe, > However, the Waller Flag is a dual loop that trades off signal for > pattern. I agree. But I believe it's gain is very low mostly because it's made up of electrically very small loops. A very small loop has its main lobes in the plane of the loop - not perpendicular to the plane of the loop as in a quarter-wave-on-a-side loop in a Quad antenna. When a very small loop is mounted horizontally, there's a null in the pattern towards the ground. So even though it's mounted horizontally, it is less susceptible to the effects of the ground. > The LOG is a horizontally polarized antenna nearly on the "boundary" > where the horizontally polarized signal goes to zero. The better > the ground (higher conductivity), the worse (lower) the signal level > from the LOG (thank you Dr. Maxwell). I also agree with Dr. Maxwell. But a very small loop mounted horizontally is not like a big antenna mounted horizontally. And Nick is correct - KK5JY shows a two-loop system farther on down - it's kind of approaching a horizontal Waller Flag. Carl K9LA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
Does the article referenced then not go on to describe a phased array of two LoG's (Figure 7)? Nick VE7DXR At 21:24 2018-08-01, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: On 2018-08-01 5:13 PM, Carl Luetzelschwab wrote: That gain value is in the neighborhood of what a Waller Flag does. However, the Waller Flag is a dual loop that trades off signal for pattern. The LOG simply throws away signal due to attenuation of the dirt. The LOG is a horizontally polarized antenna nearly on the "boundary" where the horizontally polarized signal goes to zero. The better the ground (higher conductivity), the worse (lower) the signal level from the LOG (thank you Dr. Maxwell). 73, ... Joe, W4TV _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband Nick Hall-Patch Victoria, BC Canada _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
On 2018-08-01 5:13 PM, Carl Luetzelschwab wrote: That gain value is in the neighborhood of what a Waller Flag does. However, the Waller Flag is a dual loop that trades off signal for pattern. The LOG simply throws away signal due to attenuation of the dirt. The LOG is a horizontally polarized antenna nearly on the "boundary" where the horizontally polarized signal goes to zero. The better the ground (higher conductivity), the worse (lower) the signal level from the LOG (thank you Dr. Maxwell). 73, ... Joe, W4TV _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
Note that the KK5JY antenna is a single loop, not a double loop as G3UNA referenced. > That's a terrible RX antenna. Did you see the losses?! > Minus-forty-something dB on 160. That gain value is in the neighborhood of what a Waller Flag does. Carl K9LA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
Isn't a waller flag in the minus 50's? On 8/1/2018 2:15 PM, Mike Waters wrote: That's a terrible RX antenna. Did you see the losses?! Minus-forty-something dB on 160. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Wed, Aug 1, 2018, 3:00 PM Nick Hall-Patch wrote: DuckDuckGo brought up this at the top of its search: http://kk5jy.net/LoG/ Presumably that is what you mean? best wishes, Nick VE7DXR At 19:04 2018-08-01, CUTTER DAVID via Topband wrote: Drifting the thread slightly: I read an article recently regarding 2 loops of 15ft square separated by 15ft which the author called Loop On Ground, LOG. He claimed good results on receive over a period of a year. It was very low gain but had directional properties and was said to be quiet.I can't lay my hands on the site just now, but it might be of interest. David G3UNA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
Mike - After many experiments, what I came to understand is that a loop is a loop is a loop. They're all variations on a theme. Ground dependent vs independent. Elevation. Size vs capture area. Need for a pre-amp or not. Nearby structures and antennas. The degrees of freedom are many. Some are great. Some so-so. Others just poor performers. The feed point transformer in all cases was critical. N4IS's horizontal Waller Flag up high is apparently very effective. The original article by Earl, K6SE (SK), in July 2000 QST is an excellent reference demonstrating that the 14' x 29' single loop configuration is optimal for both 160 and 80 with a single value termination resistor. My article adds nothing new electrically, just a more robust mechanical support design after some spectacular failures. Quite a learning experience. To repeat, the most critical element of the loop is the feed point transformer. Take care when winding it and be sure to bench check it. The full size loop works well on 160 and 80. I find very little need for a pre-amp. Another option to consider for lower elevations is a vertical Waller Flag. As you likely know, it's two smaller phased loops that fit in about the same footprint. It requires attention to detail when connecting the phasing of the loops and will require a pre-amp. The flag is the most that I could accommodate on my small West Coast city lot. Now at 200+ DXCC on Top Band and counting, albeit very very slowly anymore. Good luck! Steve WB6RSE > On Aug 1, 2018, at 9:47 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote: > > Thanks! > > > I think I will still try to build the vertical version to try. > > > On 8/1/2018 10:15 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: >> Hi Mike, >> >> A horizontally polarized loop -- or any other horizontally polarized >> 160 meter antenna -- has extremely poor sensitivity when installed >> less than about 0.1 wavelenght above the ground. Even if you raise >> a horizontally polarized loop to about 0.1 wavelength (50 feet on 160 >> meters) it will be a poor antenna for DXing because of its insensitivity >> to low angles of arrival. >> >> 73 >> Frank >> W3LPL >> >> >> *From: *"W0MU Mike Fatchett" >> *To: *topband@contesting.com >> *Sent: *Wednesday, August 1, 2018 3:40:10 PM >> *Subject: *Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question >> >> Has anyone tried a loop like this in the Horizontal plane? I suppose >> if one had an AZ mount they could try it from horizontal to Vertical. >> >> His flag build was in the July 2015 QST. >> >> W0MU >> >> _ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
Mike - After many experiments, what I came to understand is that a loop is a loop is a loop. They're all variations on a theme. Ground dependent vs independent. Elevation. Size vs capture area. Need for a pre-amp or not. Nearby structures and antennas. The degrees of freedom are many. Some are great. Some so-so. Others just poor performers. The feed point transformer in all cases was critical. N4IS's horizontal Waller Flag up high is apparently very effective. The original article by Earl, K6SE (SK), in July 2000 QST is an excellent reference demonstrating that the 14' x 29' single loop configuration is optimal for both 160 and 80 with a single value termination resistor. My article adds nothing new electrically, just a more robust mechanical support design after some spectacular failures. Quite a learning experience. To repeat, the most critical element of the loop is the feed point transformer. Take care when winding it and be sure to bench check it. The full size loop works well on 160 and 80. I find very little need for a pre-amp. Another option to consider for lower elevations is a vertical Waller Flag. As you likely know, it's two smaller phased loops that fit in about the same footprint. It requires attention to detail when connecting the phasing of the loops and will require a pre-amp. The flag is the most that I could accommodate on my small West Coast city lot. Now at 200+ DXCC on Top Band and counting, albeit very very slowly anymore. Good luck! Steve WB6RSE > On Aug 1, 2018, at 9:47 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote: > > Thanks! > > > I think I will still try to build the vertical version to try. > > > On 8/1/2018 10:15 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: >> Hi Mike, >> >> A horizontally polarized loop -- or any other horizontally polarized >> 160 meter antenna -- has extremely poor sensitivity when installed >> less than about 0.1 wavelenght above the ground. Even if you raise >> a horizontally polarized loop to about 0.1 wavelength (50 feet on 160 >> meters) it will be a poor antenna for DXing because of its insensitivity >> to low angles of arrival. >> >> 73 >> Frank >> W3LPL >> >> >> *From: *"W0MU Mike Fatchett" >> *To: *topband@contesting.com >> *Sent: *Wednesday, August 1, 2018 3:40:10 PM >> *Subject: *Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question >> >> Has anyone tried a loop like this in the Horizontal plane? I suppose >> if one had an AZ mount they could try it from horizontal to Vertical. >> >> His flag build was in the July 2015 QST. >> >> W0MU >> >> _ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
That's a terrible RX antenna. Did you see the losses?! Minus-forty-something dB on 160. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Wed, Aug 1, 2018, 3:00 PM Nick Hall-Patch wrote: > DuckDuckGo brought up this at the top of its search: > http://kk5jy.net/LoG/ > > Presumably that is what you mean? > > best wishes, > > Nick > VE7DXR > > At 19:04 2018-08-01, CUTTER DAVID via Topband wrote: > >Drifting the thread slightly: I read an article recently regarding 2 > >loops of 15ft square separated by 15ft which the author called Loop > >On Ground, LOG. He claimed good results on receive over a period of > >a year. It was very low gain but had directional properties and was > >said to be quiet.I can't lay my hands on the site just now, but > >it might be of interest. > > > >David G3UNA > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
DuckDuckGo brought up this at the top of its search: http://kk5jy.net/LoG/ Presumably that is what you mean? best wishes, Nick VE7DXR At 19:04 2018-08-01, CUTTER DAVID via Topband wrote: Drifting the thread slightly: I read an article recently regarding 2 loops of 15ft square separated by 15ft which the author called Loop On Ground, LOG. He claimed good results on receive over a period of a year. It was very low gain but had directional properties and was said to be quiet.I can't lay my hands on the site just now, but it might be of interest. David G3UNA > > On 01 August 2018 at 17:15 donov...@starpower.net wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > A horizontally polarized loop -- or any other horizontally polarized > 160 meter antenna -- has extremely poor sensitivity when installed > less than about 0.1 wavelenght above the ground. Even if you raise > a horizontally polarized loop to about 0.1 wavelength (50 feet on 160 > meters) it will be a poor antenna for DXing because of its insensitivity > to low angles of arrival. > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > - Original Message - > > From: "W0MU Mike Fatchett" > To: topband@contesting.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 3:40:10 PM > Subject: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question > > Has anyone tried a loop like this in the Horizontal plane? I suppose > if one had an AZ mount they could try it from horizontal to Vertical. > > His flag build was in the July 2015 QST. > > W0MU > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > Sent to: d.cut...@ntlworld.com > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband Nick Hall-Patch Victoria, BC Canada _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
Drifting the thread slightly: I read an article recently regarding 2 loops of 15ft square separated by 15ft which the author called Loop On Ground, LOG. He claimed good results on receive over a period of a year. It was very low gain but had directional properties and was said to be quiet.I can't lay my hands on the site just now, but it might be of interest. David G3UNA > > On 01 August 2018 at 17:15 donov...@starpower.net wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > A horizontally polarized loop -- or any other horizontally polarized > 160 meter antenna -- has extremely poor sensitivity when installed > less than about 0.1 wavelenght above the ground. Even if you raise > a horizontally polarized loop to about 0.1 wavelength (50 feet on 160 > meters) it will be a poor antenna for DXing because of its insensitivity > to low angles of arrival. > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > - Original Message - > > From: "W0MU Mike Fatchett" > To: topband@contesting.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 3:40:10 PM > Subject: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question > > Has anyone tried a loop like this in the Horizontal plane? I suppose > if one had an AZ mount they could try it from horizontal to Vertical. > > His flag build was in the July 2015 QST. > > W0MU > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > Sent to: d.cut...@ntlworld.com > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
Thanks! I think I will still try to build the vertical version to try. On 8/1/2018 10:15 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: Hi Mike, A horizontally polarized loop -- or any other horizontally polarized 160 meter antenna -- has extremely poor sensitivity when installed less than about 0.1 wavelenght above the ground. Even if you raise a horizontally polarized loop to about 0.1 wavelength (50 feet on 160 meters) it will be a poor antenna for DXing because of its insensitivity to low angles of arrival. 73 Frank W3LPL *From: *"W0MU Mike Fatchett" *To: *topband@contesting.com *Sent: *Wednesday, August 1, 2018 3:40:10 PM *Subject: *Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question Has anyone tried a loop like this in the Horizontal plane? I suppose if one had an AZ mount they could try it from horizontal to Vertical. His flag build was in the July 2015 QST. W0MU _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband Sent to: arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
Hi Mike, A horizontally polarized loop -- or any other horizontally polarized 160 meter antenna -- has extremely poor sensitivity when installed less than about 0.1 wavelenght above the ground. Even if you raise a horizontally polarized loop to about 0.1 wavelength (50 feet on 160 meters) it will be a poor antenna for DXing because of its insensitivity to low angles of arrival. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "W0MU Mike Fatchett" To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 3:40:10 PM Subject: Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question Has anyone tried a loop like this in the Horizontal plane? I suppose if one had an AZ mount they could try it from horizontal to Vertical. His flag build was in the July 2015 QST. W0MU _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband Sent to: arch...@mail-archive.com
Topband: WB6RSE Flag type loop question
Has anyone tried a loop like this in the Horizontal plane? I suppose if one had an AZ mount they could try it from horizontal to Vertical. His flag build was in the July 2015 QST. W0MU _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
