Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
Op donderdag 27-08-2009 om 12:59 uur [tijdzone -0400], schreef Paul Smith: If it wasn't one of the most well-known programs in the world would you guess that Quicken was a program for handling your finances? Well... it's printed on the paper box you bought... ;-) -- Jan Claeys -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
Quicken, Outlook, Powerpoint, they're all bizzare names. Doesn't mean that Ubuntu can't do one better ;-) I believe the menu system is better in Ubuntu than Windows, however all apps could do with having their function added to their name. As like Firefox Web Browser. We know what Firefox is, but in my office (still working on Windows 2000!) I don't think I'm the majority. -Original Message- From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com]on Behalf Of Paul Smith Sent: 27 August 2009 17:59 To: Vincent Arnoux Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time On Thu, 2009-08-27 at 18:48 +0200, Vincent Arnoux wrote: On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 18:23, Dotan Cohendotanco...@gmail.com wrote: I guess Jonathan Taylor is joking or trolling here, one of the main advantage of using Linux distributions for desktops is that every application is automatically categorized where, on Windows, every application is NOT categorized... Start-Programs-Adobe-Photoshop v.x-Photoshop How is one supposed to know to look under Adobe for Photoshop? Why isn't it under Graphics or Photo Editors or some such menu? After the application is installed, a bubble notification guides you to the newly installed program by highlighting the path in the start menu. This part would be nice to see in our DE's. This enhancement would be nice, but I'm sure you'll agree it's in no way comparable to having sane menus in the first place. It's great the first time you install something but what about an application you use only once in a great while? The second time you need it the highlighting will be long gone, and yet you can't remember where in the heck that program went to! Also, Windows has it's own fair share of programs whose names are not very evocative. If it wasn't one of the most well-known programs in the world would you guess that Quicken was a program for handling your finances? Cheers! -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss ** It is the policy of the MPS that: MPS personnel (or agents working on behalf of the MPS) must not use MPS systems to author, transmit or store documents such as electronic mail (e-mail) messages or attachments: * containing racist, homophobic, sexist, defamatory, offensive, illegal or otherwise inappropriate material; * containing material requiring a protective marking higher than RESTRICTED, (and not higher than NOT PROTECTIVELY MARKED across the internet) without the use of approved encryption; * containing personal data for use other than in accordance with the notification(s) under the Data Protection Act, 1998 of the system(s) from which the data originates. * This Email message has been scanned for viruses and contents. ** -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
On Fri, 2009-08-28 at 18:30 +0100, paul.mcma...@met.police.uk wrote: Quicken, Outlook, Powerpoint, they're all bizzare names. Doesn't mean that Ubuntu can't do one better ;-) I believe the menu system is better in Ubuntu than Windows, however all apps could do with having their function added to their name. As like Firefox Web Browser. We know what Firefox is, but in my office (still working on Windows 2000!) I don't think I'm the majority. I'm not disagreeing with your statement, I just think that your wish is already largely a reality. I took a look through my menus (9.04) and as far as I can tell ALL the standard applications have their function shown, either by itself (Terminal) or in addition to the name (Rhythmbox Music Player). There are some apps I've installed from multiverse, etc. that are not standard parts of Ubuntu where this pattern is not followed (e.g., Emacs 22) but things you've explicitly installed yourself are less critical in this respect. If you find apps where this isn't the case I think filing a bug in Launchpad is perfectly reasonable. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
Awesome :-) I didn't realise this was the case. I've got quite a few non-standard apps installed, so that's probably why I haven't noticed. Gnome Baker for example, if that were literal!. -Original Message- From: Paul Smith [mailto:p...@mad-scientist.us] Sent: 28 August 2009 19:07 To: McManus Paul - GD Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time On Fri, 2009-08-28 at 18:30 +0100, paul.mcma...@met.police.uk wrote: Quicken, Outlook, Powerpoint, they're all bizzare names. Doesn't mean that Ubuntu can't do one better ;-) I believe the menu system is better in Ubuntu than Windows, however all apps could do with having their function added to their name. As like Firefox Web Browser. We know what Firefox is, but in my office (still working on Windows 2000!) I don't think I'm the majority. I'm not disagreeing with your statement, I just think that your wish is already largely a reality. I took a look through my menus (9.04) and as far as I can tell ALL the standard applications have their function shown, either by itself (Terminal) or in addition to the name (Rhythmbox Music Player). There are some apps I've installed from multiverse, etc. that are not standard parts of Ubuntu where this pattern is not followed (e.g., Emacs 22) but things you've explicitly installed yourself are less critical in this respect. If you find apps where this isn't the case I think filing a bug in Launchpad is perfectly reasonable. ** It is the policy of the MPS that: MPS personnel (or agents working on behalf of the MPS) must not use MPS systems to author, transmit or store documents such as electronic mail (e-mail) messages or attachments: * containing racist, homophobic, sexist, defamatory, offensive, illegal or otherwise inappropriate material; * containing material requiring a protective marking higher than RESTRICTED, (and not higher than NOT PROTECTIVELY MARKED across the internet) without the use of approved encryption; * containing personal data for use other than in accordance with the notification(s) under the Data Protection Act, 1998 of the system(s) from which the data originates. * This Email message has been scanned for viruses and contents. ** -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
Here is another reason. The documentation is lacking, big gaps and holes in it. Take a look at help.ubuntu.com and lets just choose something at random. Try find a clear, concise example of how to configure multiple public facing IP addresses/ethernet boards in 9.04 KVM. Not there. Want another example, go again to the server docs and try and find where it talks about mapping an ethernet device (ethx) to a specific NIC, nope not there. There are all sorts of holes like this all over official Ubuntu documentation. Really the docs have got to get a whole lot better to make this happen. There is lots of information, half of it not relevant to the current version etc, etc. I really like Ubuntu but I struggle to find how to do some simple things at times, I've been using Linux for many years and if I have problems, you can imagine how new users must feel. Documentation AND examples are one of the most important things there is. Cheers George -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
Nathan Dorfman wrote: You're right, I wouldn't expect my mom to be able to RTFM and figure out how to, say, recover a corrupt grub installation or set up LVM. Similarly, I wouldn't expect her to be able to recover a corrupted registry on a Windows box without a lot of help. I agree entirely, yet the point is slightly different here. I guess the issue is with the basic help/support, this reassuring I'm here in case you need me, even though you probably never will. Documentation simply isn't going to be read by this class of user, regardless of whether it comes from ubuntu.com http://ubuntu.com or microsoft.com http://microsoft.com. When a problem or question arises, the course of action is the same regardless of what OS is in use: first, ask my dad; if that fails, ask me. We recently run some user tests and one of our subjects turned out to have been trying Ubuntu 2-3 times a week, but still wasn't quite ready to abandon Windows entirely. Asked why he said with Windows there's just so many people you can ask, and so much information on the Internet that if anything goes wrong there's always someone who can help. Ubuntu user base is still fairly small and for many potential new users (like our subject) there simply is no dad they can ask. The importance of good basic support online becomes even greater. By the way, I agree that official product documentation should not serve this purpose. M. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
Ubuntu may be a very nice OS, but until the average person can use it, it will not amount to much. Using Ubuntu is like buying a half built car. Then you have to guess at how to build the other half. All documentation is useless to beginners and you can't even install most things without using the terminal. So, why is it sooo much easier to install things in Windows and Mac? You'll never be more than a curiosity until this is fixed. Jonathan, please provide specific examples of problems, such as programs that must be installed via the terminal. While I agree with your assessment that things need to improve, nothing can be fixed without specific examples. Thank you for taking the time to let us know how you feel, but please take the time to be specific enough to help improve the situation. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
2009/8/27 Jonathan Taylor gring...@gmail.com: Hello Dotan, I have tried Ubuntu several time over the past 5 years. I usually get so frustrated that I go back to Windows XP. This week, I installed Ubuntu 9.04 on my Laptop. I spent yesterday trying to install Flash and Real Player 11. I failed at both. There is a lot of web content that I just can't use, and I really don't see why Ubuntu has remained so complicated. Why am I grappling with .bin and .tar.gz? The problem seems to be that you even tried to grapple with .bin and .tar! I have installed Flash from the .debs, and had no problems. Same with 20+ users that I support (Kubuntu, though, that's Ubuntu with the KDE desktop). I'm not a computer scholar, and I'm not as young or smart as I used to be. I hate Windows, because Microsoft treats me like a criminal, not a customer. Mac is ok, because they make things simple enough for me to understand, most of the time and I only need to use the terminal in emergencies. But Linix? If I go to one of the libraries of programs, how can I tell one from the other? They are not categorized. I can only find something via word of mouth. Here you mention my pet peeve of FOSS: the program names. Internet Explorer is clear, what on earth does Firefox do? Windows Media Player is clear, what does Amarok do? If I need a replacement for Notepad, should I open VLC, Kate, Empathy, Pidgin, Kopete, or what else?!? KDE makes this easier by listing things as Firefox (web browser) but it still could be better. I did, finally, get Evolution email to work as I wished. The Open office and other programs that come with the installation are fine, and I have used Open Office for a few years now. The rest, I have not used. I got so frustrated yesterday that I unplugged the laptop and put it on a shelf, before I broke it in anger. Breaking hardware is _never_ a solution to broken software. When you feel that you need to break something, take a deep breathe, step outside, and punch the first big guy you see. Either he will pound you to bits and the computer will be the least of your worries, or he will flee in fear of someone who is confident enough to punch him, in which case you get enough of an ego boost to feel better about the damned computer problems. Win-win. I have read the Ubuntu forums and simply watching the Colbert Report is a major challenge, judging from what I have read. THAT is a prime time example and Ubuntu is just not ready. I do not understand this comment. Is the Colbert Report something that you are trying to watch on Ubuntu? -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
2009/8/27 Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com: 2009/8/27 Jonathan Taylor gring...@gmail.com: I have tried Ubuntu several time over the past 5 years. I usually get so frustrated that I go back to Windows XP. This week, I installed Ubuntu 9.04 on my Laptop. I spent yesterday trying to install Flash and Real Player 11. I failed at both. There is a lot of web content that I just can't use, and I really don't see why Ubuntu has remained so complicated. Why am I grappling with .bin and .tar.gz? The problem seems to be that you even tried to grapple with .bin and .tar! I have installed Flash from the .debs, and had no problems. Same with 20+ users that I support (Kubuntu, though, that's Ubuntu with the KDE desktop). I guess it might be prudent at this point to point Jonathan at some documentation which may help him https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats/Flash Jonathan: I would recommend installing the package ubuntu-restricted-extras which you can do in Applications - Add/Remove Programs. Just change the 'show' box at the top to 'All available applications' and type 'restricted' in the search box. 'Ubuntu restricted extras' should be one of the first listed. This package installs flash, media codecs, fonts and other useful (and sadly non-Free) apps and libraries which many users these days find essential. Cheers, Al. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
Hello, Le jeudi 27 août 2009 à 18:06 +0300, Dotan Cohen a écrit : 2009/8/27 Jonathan Taylor gring...@gmail.com: [...] terminal in emergencies. But Linix? If I go to one of the libraries of programs, how can I tell one from the other? They are not categorized. I guess Jonathan Taylor is joking or trolling here, one of the main advantage of using Linux distributions for desktops is that every application is automatically categorized where, on Windows, every application is NOT categorized... Start-Programs-Adobe-Photoshop v.x-Photoshop VS Applications-Graphics-The Gimp Image Editor Using Applications/AddRemove shows the same, logical, categories as well. [...] KDE makes this easier by listing things as Firefox (web browser) but it still could be better. GNOME does the same; each application has it's purpose appended to it's name : Firefow Web Browser, Pidgin Instant Messenger. Regards. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
I guess it might be prudent at this point to point Jonathan at some documentation which may help him https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats/Flash Jonathan: I would recommend installing the package ubuntu-restricted-extras which you can do in Applications - Add/Remove Programs. Just change the 'show' box at the top to 'All available applications' and type 'restricted' in the search box. 'Ubuntu restricted extras' should be one of the first listed. This package installs flash, media codecs, fonts and other useful (and sadly non-Free) apps and libraries which many users these days find essential. Cheers, Al. If Jonathan lives in the United States or some other country with no civil liberties or consumer protection, then he may be breaking local laws if he does as your suggest. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
You are the second person to tell me about these .debs, but where would a newb find them? What's the secret? I have spent weeks reading all manner of heplful information and documentation, but where are these mysterious .deb files? If that is the simple solution, why isn't it put out front where new adopters can find it? http://www.ghacks.net/2009/05/04/installing-flash-in-ubuntu-904-with-firefox/ PS: please reply to the list, not to me personally. Thanks. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
On Thu, 2009-08-27 at 19:23 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: I guess Jonathan Taylor is joking or trolling here, one of the main advantage of using Linux distributions for desktops is that every application is automatically categorized where, on Windows, every application is NOT categorized... Start-Programs-Adobe-Photoshop v.x-Photoshop How is one supposed to know to look under Adobe for Photoshop? Why isn't it under Graphics or Photo Editors or some such menu? Exactly. That's an example of how Windows organizes its menus (in case you didn't notice the Start menu reference), and it's obviously bogus. The other example (that you clipped) is how Ubuntu does it, which is much simpler to understand. Yet the OP raised menu organization as a thing that Ubuntu does _badly_. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
Exactly. That's an example of how Windows organizes its menus (in case you didn't notice the Start menu reference), and it's obviously bogus. The other example (that you clipped) is how Ubuntu does it, which is much simpler to understand. Yet the OP raised menu organization as a thing that Ubuntu does _badly_. In defence, I am familiar with neither the windows nor the Gnome menus. I do know that the Windows menu starts with Start though. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 18:23, Dotan Cohendotanco...@gmail.com wrote: I guess Jonathan Taylor is joking or trolling here, one of the main advantage of using Linux distributions for desktops is that every application is automatically categorized where, on Windows, every application is NOT categorized... Start-Programs-Adobe-Photoshop v.x-Photoshop How is one supposed to know to look under Adobe for Photoshop? Why isn't it under Graphics or Photo Editors or some such menu? After the application is installed, a bubble notification guides you to the newly installed program by highlighting the path in the start menu. This part would be nice to see in our DE's. Vincent -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
On Thu, 2009-08-27 at 18:48 +0200, Vincent Arnoux wrote: On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 18:23, Dotan Cohendotanco...@gmail.com wrote: I guess Jonathan Taylor is joking or trolling here, one of the main advantage of using Linux distributions for desktops is that every application is automatically categorized where, on Windows, every application is NOT categorized... Start-Programs-Adobe-Photoshop v.x-Photoshop How is one supposed to know to look under Adobe for Photoshop? Why isn't it under Graphics or Photo Editors or some such menu? After the application is installed, a bubble notification guides you to the newly installed program by highlighting the path in the start menu. This part would be nice to see in our DE's. This enhancement would be nice, but I'm sure you'll agree it's in no way comparable to having sane menus in the first place. It's great the first time you install something but what about an application you use only once in a great while? The second time you need it the highlighting will be long gone, and yet you can't remember where in the heck that program went to! Also, Windows has it's own fair share of programs whose names are not very evocative. If it wasn't one of the most well-known programs in the world would you guess that Quicken was a program for handling your finances? Cheers! -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 18:59, Paul Smithp...@mad-scientist.us wrote: After the application is installed, a bubble notification guides you to the newly installed program by highlighting the path in the start menu. This part would be nice to see in our DE's. This enhancement would be nice, but I'm sure you'll agree it's in no way comparable to having sane menus in the first place. It's great the first time you install something but what about an application you use only once in a great while? The second time you need it the highlighting will be long gone, and yet you can't remember where in the heck that program went to! Of course, I agree with you. When using Windows, I have to use an equivalent of GnomeDo (Alt-F2 for KDE4 guys). -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
Dotan Cohen wrote: Here you mention my pet peeve of FOSS: the program names. Internet Explorer is clear, what on earth does Firefox do? Windows Media Player is clear, what does Amarok do? If I need a replacement for Notepad, should I open VLC, Kate, Empathy, Pidgin, Kopete, or what else?!? You mean non-descriptive program names like outlook, access, excel, power point? The problem isn't unique to Linux. Nils -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
After the application is installed, a bubble notification guides you to the newly installed program by highlighting the path in the start menu. This part would be nice to see in our DE's. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205388 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197604 -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
You mean non-descriptive program names like outlook, access, excel, power point? The problem isn't unique to Linux. Certainly not unique to Linux, but an area in which there is much need and room for improvement. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
Hey guys, Are you all idiots? Yes, I am. Why? Or perhaps microsoft/apple employees? No, just an idiot. Ubuntu is more than ready for everyday users...I know ...I continually switch people to Ubuntu and have started a movement to get rid of windows and osx from homes and businesses in the US just as they are doing in Europe. I have performed *buntu and Fedora installations for over 60 users, and about 20 still use it daily. That means that for about two-thirds of users Ubuntu does not perform some critical function, be it no support for a webcam or printer, or the inability to run a particular program, or no support for certain disabilities. You people who say you have tried Ubuntu and got frustrated are not an average user...you fall somewhere below that. Where, exactly do I fall? Below a rock? My clients know NOTHING about computers or operating systems and ALL of them work on ubuntu better than they ever could on windows It is also completely free including support...so my only conclusion is that you people are like the ones who wont go and get the puppy advertised in the newspaper for free but as soon as the same person puts the ad in the paper that these same puppies are now $5 dollars each . y ou go out and buy then ALL the next day. Actually, I'm the meanie who eats those puppies. Babies, too. Linus will eventually take over in the US ,, there is no stopping it. Rock on! -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
My troll-detection senses are tingling on this, but in case you are just frustrated user, let me reply... On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Jonathan Taylorgring...@gmail.com wrote: Ubuntu may be a very nice OS, but until the average person can use it, it will not amount to much. The most difficult thing for 'average users' to pick up on when learning how to use computers is the mouse (seriously; as in, holding it steady when clicking). Ubuntu is all about pointing and clicking; my 4 1/2 year old has been using it since well before she started preschool. My neighbor, a lady around retirement age, has been using Ubuntu for a couple years now. In terms of using Ubuntu, the average person can easily. Using Ubuntu is like buying a half built car. Then you have to guess at how to build the other half. Assuming that your hardware is supported by free (libre) drivers, Ubuntu should 'just work'. You should not have to 'build' (compile) anything yourself unless you *want* to... All documentation is useless to beginners ??? And have you visited the forums? and you can't even install most things without using the terminal. ??? Click Add/Remove... So, why is it sooo much easier to install things in Windows and Mac? ??? DEB files are exceptionally easy to install and if you're installing them from a repository, its easier than Win or Mac. You'll never be more than a curiosity until this is fixed. Could you provide us with the specific trouble you were having, rather than making false generalizations? CK -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
Conrad Knauer wrote: All documentation is useless to beginners ??? And have you visited the forums? So this is actually the only good and valid point in this, otherwise exaggerated, rant. I'm currently reviewing the download process on Ubuntu.com and been looking into various help and support options that the user is presented with. The non-paid choices basically are: - Ubuntu documentation (help.ubuntu.com) – very information-rich resource but very beginner-unfriendly (lots of technical jargon) - Forums – lots of information noise, very difficult to locate the right thread (or even find out where to start) to someone not already accustomed with how forums work - Mailing lists – the UI the user is presented with when subscribing can be intimidating and does not provide a helpful how to information - IRC – most users never heard of it and never used it. Very niche and mysterious way of communication from average user's standpoint I'd personally hesitate to offer any of the above to my wife, mum, or anyone who I know is not deeply into all things web. Would you? I'm very curious what are the experiences of people here, would be great to hear your stories and opinions on that. Cheers, Mat -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
On Aug 26, 2009, at 6:57 AM, Mat Tomaszewski wrote: I'd personally hesitate to offer any of the above to my wife, mum, or anyone who I know is not deeply into all things web. Would you? I'm very curious what are the experiences of people here, would be great to hear your stories and opinions on that. Most likely not. If I turned somebody on to Ubuntu that wasn't a stranger on the street, I would be forced to admit to myself that most likely *I* will become the main support resource, which will probably end up with me posting to forums/IRC/lists. At least until such time as they are educated enough to be more self sufficient. -Steve -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
Hi Mat, On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Mat Tomaszewskimat.tomaszew...@canonical.com wrote: I'm currently reviewing the download process on Ubuntu.com and been looking into various help and support options that the user is presented with. The non-paid choices basically are: - Ubuntu documentation (help.ubuntu.com) – very information-rich resource but very beginner-unfriendly (lots of technical jargon) help.ubuntu.com (which reproduces the desktop help system) is intended to be helpful to beginners as well as more technical users. Primarily, it should be useful to beginners. If it's not, then that is something to explore with the documentation team and something we'll be keen on fixing. If you've got any specific feedback, then I suggest that you open a discussion on the ubuntu-doc mailing list so that we can develop that and look into making some improvements. Obviously individual items can be reported as bugs on the ubuntu-docs package. -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
2009/8/26 Mat Tomaszewski mat.tomaszew...@canonical.com: - Ubuntu documentation (help.ubuntu.com) – very information-rich resource but very beginner-unfriendly (lots of technical jargon) - Forums – lots of information noise, very difficult to locate the right thread (or even find out where to start) to someone not already accustomed with how forums work - Mailing lists – the UI the user is presented with when subscribing can be intimidating and does not provide a helpful how to information - IRC – most users never heard of it and never used it. Very niche and mysterious way of communication from average user's standpoint I note that launchpad answers is missing off the support options on that download page. Seems answers has always played second fiddle to _all_ other support options, which seem strange to me. Cheers, Al. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Mat Tomaszewski mat.tomaszew...@canonical.com wrote: So this is actually the only good and valid point in this, otherwise exaggerated, rant. I'm currently reviewing the download process on Ubuntu.com and been looking into various help and support options that the user is presented with. The non-paid choices basically are: - Ubuntu documentation (help.ubuntu.com) – very information-rich resource but very beginner-unfriendly (lots of technical jargon) - Forums – lots of information noise, very difficult to locate the right thread (or even find out where to start) to someone not already accustomed with how forums work - Mailing lists – the UI the user is presented with when subscribing can be intimidating and does not provide a helpful how to information - IRC – most users never heard of it and never used it. Very niche and mysterious way of communication from average user's standpoint I'd personally hesitate to offer any of the above to my wife, mum, or anyone who I know is not deeply into all things web. Would you? I'm very curious what are the experiences of people here, would be great to hear your stories and opinions on that. Hi. I'm not a regular here, but I feel compelled to comment on this point. You're right, I wouldn't expect my mom to be able to RTFM and figure out how to, say, recover a corrupt grub installation or set up LVM. Similarly, I wouldn't expect her to be able to recover a corrupted registry on a Windows box without a lot of help. Documentation simply isn't going to be read by this class of user, regardless of whether it comes from ubuntu.com or microsoft.com. When a problem or question arises, the course of action is the same regardless of what OS is in use: first, ask my dad; if that fails, ask me. However, since installing Ubuntu and showing her how to launch Firefox and Skype, I've noticed a real difference: the number of problems and questions that arise have dropped to zero. The computer just works. Examples of things I used to hear regularly during the pre-Ubuntu era, and have never heard since: - Why is it so slow? - What is this [insert annoyware/malware du jour] and why is it here? - Why did my computer reboot without my permission, after I explicitly selected the do not reboot after installing updates option? - Everything is broken! Nothing at all is working! There are also some questions that I, as the de facto administrator of the machine, no longer have to ask myself: - Why do I need this third party bloatware just to use the printer, and why does that bloatware include a process that eats 90%+ CPU, even at times when nothing printer-related is going on? (In Ubuntu, of course, it Just Works(tm)). - Where can I find software to do XYZZY for Windows? How do I know what I'm downloading? How can I estimate the trustworthiness of the author? (apt-cache search ; apt-get install. Or, Synaptic, if you prefer). - Looks like the hard drive crashed and will need to be replaced. Do I have a day to sacrifice reinstalling applications and drivers interactively? (Install Ubuntu, feed apt-get a list of packages from the old system, restore /home). In short: the documentation may not make a completely non-technical user able to install and administer an Ubuntu system herself, but that's irrelevant. That user won't be installing or administering her own Windows system, either -- someone else will be doing that. The difference is that with Ubuntu, she will have to call that someone else a lot less often. Ubuntu makes her life easier, as well as mine. As for the quality of the documentation, in my personal opinion it's usually incomparably better than that provided by Microsoft ... but hey, YMMV, and as I said, it's irrelevant anyway. P.S.: If the OP is not a troll, I don't know what is. Cheers, Mat -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Why Ubuntu is not ready for prime time
On Wed, 2009-08-26 at 14:53 -0400, Nathan Dorfman wrote: P.S.: If the OP is not a troll, I don't know what is. http://redenaz.deviantart.com/art/Behind-the-Keyboard-Trolls-76598407 Do NOT feed the trolls! Hug them. Martin, -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
