Re: Unicode 11 Georgian uppercase vs. fonts
On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 19:01:03 +0200 Kent Karlsson via Unicode wrote: > The (proper) case-mapping for ẞ is nowhere to be > found the Unicode database (which I think is a pity, but that is a > different matter). Actually it is. It is the case-mapping of ß which was disputed. However, unless I've missed something, it still possible to change the upper-casing of ß to be ẞ. When they get encoded, I trust the Arabic crown letters will lowercase to ordinary letters, but ordinary letters will not uppercase to crown letters except in one very special locale. Richard.
Re: Unicode 11 Georgian uppercase vs. fonts
But this behaviour is desirable. It is desirable to be able to select a Georgian word and to The only thing that seems to annoy people is that modern Georgian doesn’t do titlecasing. But that is orthographic, and automatic titlecasing doesn’t work properly anyway. French rules and English rules differ. “The Fellowship of the Ring” is acceptable in English. “The Fellowship Of The Ring” is not. Michael Everson > On 28 Jul 2018, at 18:01, Kent Karlsson wrote: > > I know it is too late now, but... Could have added the characters, > without adding the case mappings. Just as it was done for the LATIN > CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S (ẞ), where the proper case mapping was relegated > to "special purpose software" (or just a special setting in common > software). The (proper) case-mapping for ẞ is nowhere to be found the > Unicode database (which I think is a pity, but that is a different matter). > > I think "specialcasing.txt" is not really maintained anymore, but I'll > disregard that here. > > One could add a special-casing for each modern Georgian lowercase letter > to (continue to) uppercase-map to itself (for the Georgian language at > least). > > /Kent K > > > > Den 2018-07-28 15:26, skrev "Michael Everson via Unicode" > : > >> Mtavruli could not be represented in the UCS before we added these >> characters. >> Now it can. >> >> Michael Everson >> >>> On 28 Jul 2018, at 14:10, Richard Wordingham via Unicode >>> wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 01:45:53 + >>> Peter Constable via Unicode wrote: >>> (iii) gave indication of intent to develop a plan of action for preparing their institutions for this change as well as communicating that within Georgian industry and society. It was only after that did UTC feel it was viable to proceed with encoding Mtavruli characters. >>> >>> It is dangerous to rely on declarations of intent when making >>> irreversible decisions. The UTC should have learnt that from the >>> Mongolian mess. >>> >>> Richard. >> >> > >
Re: Unicode 11 Georgian uppercase vs. fonts
I know it is too late now, but... Could have added the characters, without adding the case mappings. Just as it was done for the LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S (ẞ), where the proper case mapping was relegated to "special purpose software" (or just a special setting in common software). The (proper) case-mapping for ẞ is nowhere to be found the Unicode database (which I think is a pity, but that is a different matter). I think "specialcasing.txt" is not really maintained anymore, but I'll disregard that here. One could add a special-casing for each modern Georgian lowercase letter to (continue to) uppercase-map to itself (for the Georgian language at least). /Kent K Den 2018-07-28 15:26, skrev "Michael Everson via Unicode" : > Mtavruli could not be represented in the UCS before we added these characters. > Now it can. > > Michael Everson > >> On 28 Jul 2018, at 14:10, Richard Wordingham via Unicode >> wrote: >> >> On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 01:45:53 + >> Peter Constable via Unicode wrote: >> >>> (iii) gave >>> indication of intent to develop a plan of action for preparing their >>> institutions for this change as well as communicating that within >>> Georgian industry and society. It was only after that did UTC feel it >>> was viable to proceed with encoding Mtavruli characters. >> >> It is dangerous to rely on declarations of intent when making >> irreversible decisions. The UTC should have learnt that from the >> Mongolian mess. >> >> Richard. > >
Re: Unicode 11 Georgian uppercase vs. fonts
Mtavruli could not be represented in the UCS before we added these characters. Now it can. Michael Everson > On 28 Jul 2018, at 14:10, Richard Wordingham via Unicode > wrote: > > On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 01:45:53 + > Peter Constable via Unicode wrote: > >> (iii) gave >> indication of intent to develop a plan of action for preparing their >> institutions for this change as well as communicating that within >> Georgian industry and society. It was only after that did UTC feel it >> was viable to proceed with encoding Mtavruli characters. > > It is dangerous to rely on declarations of intent when making > irreversible decisions. The UTC should have learnt that from the > Mongolian mess. > > Richard.
Re: Unicode 11 Georgian uppercase vs. fonts
On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 01:45:53 + Peter Constable via Unicode wrote: > (iii) gave > indication of intent to develop a plan of action for preparing their > institutions for this change as well as communicating that within > Georgian industry and society. It was only after that did UTC feel it > was viable to proceed with encoding Mtavruli characters. It is dangerous to rely on declarations of intent when making irreversible decisions. The UTC should have learnt that from the Mongolian mess. Richard.
Re: Unicode 11 Georgian uppercase vs. fonts
On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 5:34 AM, Peter Constable wrote: > > Many Georgian scientists working with script and language are not fans > of "uppercase" font styles. > > >With all my respect, N2608R2 is right and N4712 is wrong about case in > Georgian. > Can you comment, then, on N4776, in which the Georgian Minister of > Education and Science appears to be referring to Mtavruli as “Georgian > capital letters”? > Peter, sure. First of all, not related to this particular case, but in general: even a minister can be wrong, so issues of the script must be solved based on common practice for that script and its orthography, and not based on individual opinion (even if it is an official institution). But let's get to N4776 (markup numbers and letters are mine): "... [1] Availability of different versions of Georgian [A] font is important... [2] However, it should be noted as well that in modern Georgian capital letters are only used [2.a] for creating of printed texts, [2.b] for specific polygraphic purposes and [2.c] their usage is not related to orthography. Hence, [3] the Ministry of Education and Science of Georgia welcomes the integration of Georgian capital letters, as one of the [B] script versions, into Unicode standard." First, #1 clearly shows that the document treats Mtavruli as a graphical variant of Mkhedruli, not as a separate script, like Mkhedruli, Asomtavruli, or Nuskhuri. Second, #2 reaffirms N2608R2, #2.b confirms it is a stylistic variant (and not a majuscule pair to minuscule Mkheduli), #2.c directly opposes Michael's statement that Mtavruli use can be treated as orthographic. Then... #3 welcomes N4712 to encode a graphical variation of Mkhedruli. So, N2608R2 is right, but N4712 is welcomed as it adds another Georgian layer to Unicode. When they say "capital letters" (მთავრული ასონიშნები, lit. *capital letter signs*), they obviously mix the concept of a character with a concept of a glyph (or simply mean glyphs). I think this is the key issue here: Mtavruli looks like capital glyphs(!) but behave like ordinal Mkhedruli characters with a stylistic variation. Also, one minor note on terminology in the translation: both A (translated as "font") and B (translated as "script") in Georgian text refer to Mtavruli as to "form of writing" (დაწერილობა), not to as "font" (შრიფტი) or "writing system" (დამწერლობა). Sincerely, Alex. > > > > Thanks > > Peter >
Re: Unicode 11 Georgian uppercase vs. fonts
On Saturday, 28 July 2018, Asmus Freytag (c) via Unicode < unicode@unicode.org> wrote: > > > A real plan would have consisted of documentation suggesting how to roll > out library update, whether to change/augment CSS styling keywords, what > types of locale adaptations of case transforms should be implemented, how > to get OSs to deliver fonts to people, etc., etc.. > > It can be dealt with in various ways in CSS as it is. The question is why the designer chose to apply capitals, the purpose behind it, and how that should be appropriately internationalised. For instance for Cherokee you may want to lowercase instead of upercase, assuming this is wise. Other languages you may want to embolden text, Italian it, underline it, change colour, change interchanged or integral heme spacing, etc . Ultimately it's a question of whether you want a single UI design or a language responsive UI design. -- Andrew Cunningham lang.supp...@gmail.com
