[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing (again - sigh) was Re: Guitar bridges
Thanks for this Lex.
One of my guitars does have bourdons on both the 5th and 4th course -
but I mostly use this instrument for continuo and do, indeed, find the
basses are pretty strong ('booming') - as I would wish in this context.
Good! But I suppose you can still play campanelas on that instrument?
In my view, campanella play is not as effective with this disposition
as with an instrument without bourdons or just a bourdon on the 4th -
but I guess you think differently.
Depends what you're after. Of course campanelas are always perfectly clean
without bourdons. But since I believe that Bartolotti (the Campanela
Champion) had bourdons in mind for his music I forgive the accidental mild
humming of the low octave strings. Perhaps he had a better playing
technique.
Lex
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[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing (again - sigh) was Re: Guitar bridges
From: Martyn Hodgson
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing (again - sigh) was Re:
Guitar bridges
To: "Lex Eisenhardt"
Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 13:53
Thanks for this Lex.
One of my guitars does have bourdons on both the 5th and 4th course -
but I mostly use this instrument for continuo and do, indeed, find the
basses are pretty strong ('booming') - as I would wish in this context.
In my view, campanella play is not as effective with this disposition
as with an instrument without bourdons or just a bourdon on the 4th -
but I guess you think differently.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Wed, 30/11/11, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing (again - sigh) was Re:
Guitar bridges
To: "Vihuelalist" , "Martyn Hodgson"
Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 12:18
Dear Martyn,
> Hmm again how can lowering the position of the high octave
string
> of an octave pair (so that it lies significantly below the general
> string datum) not have an influence on the ease of playing just
this
> string?
Of course this requires to play a little more precise with the thumb.
Which would need some exercice.
But it makes it much easier to touch the couse so that it sounds like a
bass. Which would mean that the balance of the high and low strings is
optimal to make the high octave enhance the effect of the bass. Also
when the strings are fixed in the 'normal' way it needs a really good
control of the thumb stroke, to prevent the sound of high octave string
from dominating over the bourdon.
> I'm also not sure about always having a booming lower bourdon
randomly
> interspersed in a campanella scalic passage - but perhaps the Old
Ones
> didn't mind - tho' I doubt it...
Booming bourdons seems an exageration here. Hence my advice to try it
for some time
> tho' again I did think your
> position was that you generally liked to have a low bass because of
> your belief in the necessity of complete melodic bass lines - ie
basses
> that didn't jump the octave due to exigencies of the stringing.
Have I
> mistook your position? - in which case I'm sorry for it.
No problem.
My ideas are a bit different from that. I would argue that if we use
bourdons--because we think that a certain composer had them--we should
better make them heard. This doesn't mean that we should just stop
thinking of the musical function that the notes on these courses would
have, high or low, in a specific situation.
best wishes,
Lex
--
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[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing (again - sigh) was Re: Guitar bridges
Dear Martyn, Hmm again how can lowering the position of the high octave string of an octave pair (so that it lies significantly below the general string datum) not have an influence on the ease of playing just this string? Of course this requires to play a little more precise with the thumb. Which would need some exercice. But it makes it much easier to touch the couse so that it sounds like a bass. Which would mean that the balance of the high and low strings is optimal to make the high octave enhance the effect of the bass. Also when the strings are fixed in the 'normal' way it needs a really good control of the thumb stroke, to prevent the sound of high octave string from dominating over the bourdon. I'm also not sure about always having a booming lower bourdon randomly interspersed in a campanella scalic passage - but perhaps the Old Ones didn't mind - tho' I doubt it... Booming bourdons seems an exageration here. Hence my advice to try it for some time tho' again I did think your position was that you generally liked to have a low bass because of your belief in the necessity of complete melodic bass lines - ie basses that didn't jump the octave due to exigencies of the stringing. Have I mistook your position? - in which case I'm sorry for it. No problem. My ideas are a bit different from that. I would argue that if we use bourdons--because we think that a certain composer had them--we should better make them heard. This doesn't mean that we should just stop thinking of the musical function that the notes on these courses would have, high or low, in a specific situation. best wishes, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing (again - sigh) was Re: Guitar bridges
Dear Lex, Hmm again how can lowering the position of the high octave string of an octave pair (so that it lies significantly below the general string datum) not have an influence on the ease of playing just this string? I'm also not sure about always having a booming lower bourdon randomly interspersed in a campanella scalic passage - but perhaps the Old Ones didn't mind - tho' I doubt it... I wrote that 'this seems to me to be advocating the dubious position of always requiring a low 'bass' line rather than simply accepting the unique idiomatic sound of the period instrument'. So I really wasn't saying that you always advocate this - tho' again I did think your position was that you generally liked to have a low bass because of your belief in the necessity of complete melodic bass lines - ie basses that didn't jump the octave due to exigencies of the stringing. Have I mistook your position? - in which case I'm sorry for it. regards Martyn --- On Tue, 29/11/11, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges To: "Vihuelalist" Date: Tuesday, 29 November, 2011, 20:59 > Hmmm .. we agree that it makes plucking just the lower of the octave pair easier if one wishes to do this (eg possibly in scalic passages from the third to the 4th course), ...and of course in polyphony (or, as some say in Britain, counterpoint). > But it makes things like campanella play trickier - where one wishes much of the sound to be in the same register as the upper course notes of the passage. Isn't that very much a matter of technique? It still remains perfectly possible to bring out the high ocaves convincingly. And there arealso lots of campanelas in music for 'French' tuning, which stillhas one bourdon. Since there seems to be no historic information at all about leaving out the bourdons in 'cascading scalar passages' I think we should be careful with supposing that that was the norm. We just don't know >So I'm really not so sure about the general desirability of what you suggest below - this seems to me to be advocating the dubious position of always requiring a low 'bass' line rather than simply accepting the unique idiomatic sound of the period instrument. Who advocates that there should always be sounding a low bass? That is certainly not what I intend to say. Also with an octave string adjusted lower at the bridge it is well possible to mainly bring out the treble strings. It's not a matter of black or white. And what if someone like the champion of campanelas (Bartolotti) would have preferred to use bourdons? I know some on this list do not believe that, but I feel there are enough reasons to take this as an serious option. It seems to me that the 'unique idiomatic sound of the period instrument' could well be a modern paradigm. Would a guitar with bourdons not be capable to produce that unique sound? Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
