Re: [Vo]:Resonator shaped like a hyperbolic vortex

[Robin]

Hi,

BTW, it only costs about 0.53 kWh/kg to lift something 200 km above the Earth's 
surface against gravity. Li-ion cell
phone batteries have about half that. However gasoline is about 12-14 kWh/kg, 
less when you need to take along your own
Oxygen. Ideally one would use a small nuclear or isotope reactor.

Re: [Vo]:Resonator shaped like a hyperbolic vortex

[Robin]

In reply to  Sean Logan's message of Mon, 24 Aug 2020 17:29:35 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>I find this fascinating and not ridiculous.  Are you speaking from personal
>experience?  I mean, have you operated, or observed the operation, of such
>a device?

I once tried to make one by using wire wound into two conical coils arranged 
base to base with a DC current passing
through it, but didn't see any thing out of the ordinary. However the vortex 
you expect to create, sounds more
promising.

> Can you of the vortex-l community recommend a good place to publish my
>data?

I can't, but maybe someone else can?

Re: [Vo]:Resonator shaped like a hyperbolic vortex

[Robin]

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Tue, 25 Aug 2020 02:19:47 + (UTC):
Hi,
[snip]
>Say, having enough microwave energy to power a drone might mean that they 
>could also test a hybrid resonant cavity so both things could be going on. I 
>suppose that it would be possible to design an EM-type drive, especially if 
>one can be made of superconductor, where some of the RF energy bouncing around 
>in the cavity is allowed to bleed out in a single vector, and thereby act as a 
>photon rocket engine in addition to whatever else is going on. 

You don't need a leaky EM drive for a photon rocket. An ordinary radar dish 
will do just fine.

Re: [Vo]:Resonator shaped like a hyperbolic vortex

[Jones Beene]

 Terry Blanton wrote: 
> The rumors I heard was that it was testing remotely powered drones using 
> microwave transmitters and rectennas on the drone to attempt to keep them 
> aloft indefinitely.
Wonder if they were kept any drones aloft for the whole time? 

Say, having enough microwave energy to power a drone might mean that they could 
also test a hybrid resonant cavity so both things could be going on. I suppose 
that it would be possible to design an EM-type drive, especially if one can be 
made of superconductor, where some of the RF energy bouncing around in the 
cavity is allowed to bleed out in a single vector, and thereby act as a photon 
rocket engine in addition to whatever else is going on. 




  

Re: [Vo]:Resonator shaped like a hyperbolic vortex

[Terry Blanton]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 8:37 PM Jones Beene  wrote:

> Speaking of resonant cavity devices, state secrets and the EM Drive
> specifically, there is this:
>
>
> https://www.universetoday.com/143870/x-37b-lands-after-780-days-in-orbit-doing/
>
> It is strongly suggested that a prototype EM Drive was aboard. No comment
> from officials.
>

The rumors I heard was that it was testing remotely powered drones using
microwave transmitters and rectennas on the drone to attempt to keep them
aloft indefinitely.

They're really probably testing a defense system against aliens.

Cheers!

Re: [Vo]:Resonator shaped like a hyperbolic vortex

[Jones Beene]

 Speaking of resonant cavity devices, state secrets and the EM Drive 
specifically, there is this:
https://www.universetoday.com/143870/x-37b-lands-after-780-days-in-orbit-doing/
It is strongly suggested that a prototype EM Drive was aboard. No comment from 
officials.

Despite the fact that most scientists still do not think it is feasible, the 
silence from NASA about the testing in space - is palpable.
Let me say again that Logan's geometry would stand a good chance of being 
superior, if the concept does work, since the area ratio of the surface area of 
the ends is far greater and that ratio seems to be an important criteria. 
Instead of say 3:1 it could be 100:1 or more. Using that increased area are 
might entail providing several different RF frequencies instead of one.

Jones


  

Re: [Vo]:Resonator shaped like a hyperbolic vortex

[Sean Logan]

>
>
>  Now try to imagine a
> place where the aether density is less than in the surrounding space.


Well, I know that in a tornado (vortex in air), you get high and low
pressure zones.  That is why, for example, even though the air is moving in
circles parallel with the ground, a house gets sucked *up* the vortex.
Because there is a low pressure zone inside the funnel.

I suppose if you have a vortex made of some other medium than air,
analogous phenomena may occur.  If you have a vortex of "space" or "aether"
or whatever you want to call the medium through which radio waves propagate
-- I guess you could have a low "pressure" zone relative to the surrounding
volume.



> If you can pump enough out to equal the weight of the structure, than the
> net weight would be zero. Any less, and it
> would be negative and you would have an anti-gravity device, analogous to
> a hot air balloon, but capable of operating in
> outer space.
>

I find this fascinating and not ridiculous.  Are you speaking from personal
experience?  I mean, have you operated, or observed the operation, of such
a device?


 Can you of the vortex-l community recommend a good place to publish my
data?

Re: [Vo]:Resonator shaped like a hyperbolic vortex

[Robin]

In reply to  Sean Logan's message of Mon, 24 Aug 2020 13:35:09 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>>
>> You might consider adding a mirror image of it along the axis. Wide ends
>> together. Maybe then it will generate a
>> "hole in the vacuum" 
>>
>
>Oh?  What is a "hole in the vaccuum?"


When all matter has been removed, what is left is the vacuum, or aether as some 
used to call it. Now try to imagine a
place where the aether density is less than in the surrounding space. Photon 
pumping might produce such a thing?
Probably best to start off in a normal vacuum so that air doesn't confuse the 
issue.

If you can pump enough out to equal the weight of the structure, than the net 
weight would be zero. Any less, and it
would be negative and you would have an anti-gravity device, analogous to a hot 
air balloon, but capable of operating in
outer space.

This is based on the notion that a gravity well comprises an aether density 
gradient.

All far fetched nonsense? ;)

Re: [Vo]:Resonator shaped like a hyperbolic vortex

[Sean Logan]

>
> You might consider adding a mirror image of it along the axis. Wide ends
> together. Maybe then it will generate a
> "hole in the vacuum" 
>

Oh?  What is a "hole in the vaccuum?"

Re: [Vo]:Resonator shaped like a hyperbolic vortex

[Robin]

In reply to  Sean Logan's message of Mon, 24 Aug 2020 12:20:28 -0700:
Hi,

You might consider adding a mirror image of it along the axis. Wide ends 
together. Maybe then it will generate a 
"hole in the vacuum" in the middle?

[snip]
>Thank you JonesBeene.  The thought that the mass of the device may change
>under certain conditions had not crossed my mind.  Can you refer me to some
>good papers on the Shawyer truncated cone?

Re: [Vo]:Resonator shaped like a hyperbolic vortex

[Jones Beene]

 The Wiki listing for "resonant cavity thruster" is a place to start as there 
are good links to more detail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RF_resonant_cavity_thruster
There is a long thread on Reddit if you have a few days to waste
Sean Logan wrote

> Can you refer me to some good papers on the Shawyer truncated cone?

  

Re: [Vo]:Resonator shaped like a hyperbolic vortex

[Sean Logan]

Thank you JonesBeene.  The thought that the mass of the device may change
under certain conditions had not crossed my mind.  Can you refer me to some
good papers on the Shawyer truncated cone?

Yes, I am familiar with Bird Wattmeters.  However, in this experimental
setup, nothing is matched to a 50 ohm impedance, so I think it may be
simpler and more straightforward to simply measure the Drain current I_d.

Imagine a simple Class A NMOS amplifier, with n LC circuit between the
Drain and the positive rail.  In my experiment, the hyperbolic horn
structure serves in place of the resonant circuit.  The current flows down
the central pipe in the middle.  The current varies in magnitude, but never
reverses direction.  Therefore, the magnetic field varies in magnitude, and
gives rise to wave phenomena, but does not reverse direction.  Therefore,
the hysteresis curve stays in the upper right-hand quadrant.

I think of it like stirring a bucket of water.  If you stir only clockwise
and do not reverse direction, you will begin to create a vortex.  The
surface of the water will dip down and form a funnel, shaped like a
hyperbolic horn.




On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 6:15 AM JonesBeene  wrote:

> Very interesting.
>
>
>
> The first thought that came to mind when I saw your design, esp  with  the
> golden rule geometry -- is that it could be a more favorable wave guide
> than the Shawyer truncated cone (EM drive) for the purpose of directed
> thrust using RF.
>
>
>
> Mabye this is where your are headed but if you haven’t done so (and have a
> very sensitive digital scale), it could be worth the effort looking for any
> such small effect. NASA would love to see such a finding as they have taken
> some heat, so to speak, over their EM drive testing.
>
>
>
> As for power  measurement, there is lots of used Bird RF meters and dummy
> loads out there (EBay) – but it looks like you have already tried that.
>
>
>
> Jones
>
>
>
> *From: *Sean Logan 
>
>
>
>I built, and am experimenting with an EM resonator.  Its geometry is
> based on the shape of a hyperbolic horn, the natural shape of a vortex in
> water.  Please let me know if you have any insight into what is happening
> inside this structure, when it is excited with RF.
>
>
>
>My work is documented here:
>
>
>
>spaz.org/~magi
>
>
>
>
>
> Also, if you know of a simple circuit for measuring RF current, I am
> all ears.  I would like to look for the "dip" in current which occurs when
> it is excited at its resonant frequency.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Sean Logan
>
>
>
>
>

[Vo]:Subjective Reality

[Terry Blanton]

https://theconversation.com/a-new-quantum-paradox-throws-the-foundations-of-observed-reality-into-question-144426



Be cautious of what you wish and choose your friends carefully.

RE: [Vo]:Resonator shaped like a hyperbolic vortex

[JonesBeene]

Very interesting.

The first thought that came to mind when I saw your design, esp  with  the 
golden rule geometry -- is that it could be a more favorable wave guide than 
the Shawyer truncated cone (EM drive) for the purpose of directed thrust using 
RF.

Mabye this is where your are headed but if you haven’t done so (and have a very 
sensitive digital scale), it could be worth the effort looking for any such 
small effect. NASA would love to see such a finding as they have taken some 
heat, so to speak, over their EM drive testing.

As for power  measurement, there is lots of used Bird RF meters and dummy loads 
out there (EBay) – but it looks like you have already tried that.

Jones

From: Sean Logan

   I built, and am experimenting with an EM resonator.  Its geometry is based 
on the shape of a hyperbolic horn, the natural shape of a vortex in water.  
Please let me know if you have any insight into what is happening inside this 
structure, when it is excited with RF.

   My work is documented here:

   spaz.org/~magi


    Also, if you know of a simple circuit for measuring RF current, I am all 
ears.  I would like to look for the "dip" in current which occurs when it is 
excited at its resonant frequency.

Thank you,
Sean Logan