Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Warning -- I am about to break the Windows and MacOS ports!
On Monday 14 May 2007 21:35:04 Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > If it is really a problem we should probably use some more conventional > > filenames like _main.cfg instead of %main.cfg for example. > > Alas, it appears the ls(1) sort algorithm ignores all leading > non-alphanumerics. It depends on your system locale, when depending on the sort order it's always better to set your locale to C. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/tmp/test % LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8 ls bar foo _foo [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/tmp/test % LC_ALL=C ls _foo bar foo -- Warp Networks | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| http://warp.es Debian| [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.debian.org ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] SotBE description a bit racy
Hmmm i am not sure if there is a non vulgar way to translate that in french On 5/15/07, Eric S. Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bruno Wolff III <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 13:00:54 -0400, > > "Eric S. Raymond" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > If "Austin Powers: The Spy who Shagged Me" could be marketed as > > > PG-13 (and it was) then I think we're on pretty safe ground as regards > > > actual obscenity. > > > > It might be nice to hear from some British English speakers to get a > feeling > > about just how vulgar shagger is there. Would parents not want children > > of say age 10 even seeing the word? > > My native dialect is Middle American, but I've lived in Great Britain. > > My understanding is that the term is considered vulgar but not obscene, > comparable to, say, American use of v. "hump" to describe sex (especially > animal sex). "Shag" , however, has different connotations -- it suggests > vigorous, rough sex. > > As with many such mild scatologies, there is more social license to use them > in comedy or satire than in a serious way. I'm pretty certain a British > parent > wouldn't be disturbed if their 10-year-old kid(s) were exposed to the > movie title, but they'd be disturbed if their kids *used* it. > -- > http://www.catb.org/~esr/";>Eric S. Raymond > > ___ > Wesnoth-dev mailing list > Wesnoth-dev@gna.org > https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] SotBE description a bit racy
Bruno Wolff III <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 13:00:54 -0400, > "Eric S. Raymond" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > If "Austin Powers: The Spy who Shagged Me" could be marketed as > > PG-13 (and it was) then I think we're on pretty safe ground as regards > > actual obscenity. > > It might be nice to hear from some British English speakers to get a feeling > about just how vulgar shagger is there. Would parents not want children > of say age 10 even seeing the word? My native dialect is Middle American, but I've lived in Great Britain. My understanding is that the term is considered vulgar but not obscene, comparable to, say, American use of v. "hump" to describe sex (especially animal sex). "Shag" , however, has different connotations -- it suggests vigorous, rough sex. As with many such mild scatologies, there is more social license to use them in comedy or satire than in a serious way. I'm pretty certain a British parent wouldn't be disturbed if their 10-year-old kid(s) were exposed to the movie title, but they'd be disturbed if their kids *used* it. -- http://www.catb.org/~esr/";>Eric S. Raymond ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] SotBE description a bit racy
Bruno Wolff III <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > So I wasn't asking for it to be changed as much as people to conciously > decide whether or not it was inline with the project's guidelines. I'd like to see some consensus on that myself. -- http://www.catb.org/~esr/";>Eric S. Raymond ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] SotBE description a bit racy
On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 13:00:54 -0400, "Eric S. Raymond" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > If "Austin Powers: The Spy who Shagged Me" could be marketed as > PG-13 (and it was) then I think we're on pretty safe ground as regards > actual obscenity. It might be nice to hear from some British English speakers to get a feeling about just how vulgar shagger is there. Would parents not want children of say age 10 even seeing the word? In the US the term isn't really used and most people are going to associate it with the first Austin Powers movie rather than with the British slang from which it came. The movie title was advertised on TV when it came out, so arguably it isn't likely to be something parents are going to care if their children see here. ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] SotBE description a bit racy
On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 13:00:54 -0400, "Eric S. Raymond" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Rusty Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > But since orcs aren't supposed to be polite, I assumed this was > > deliberate. > > It was quite deliberate. When I reworked the SotBE prose, I spent > some time thinking up Orcish epithets for the other speaking peoples. > Human-worms, stinky-midgets, tree-shaggers -- they're *supposed* to > sound rude and obscene; that's the *point*! > > If "Austin Powers: The Spy who Shagged Me" could be marketed as > PG-13 (and it was) then I think we're on pretty safe ground as regards > actual obscenity. I didn't think the project would get in trouble for using that term. I thought it was close to the edge of the project guidelines. In the past I had seen comments that text within Wesnoth was supposed to be somewhat restrained. (For example: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7324) Since a lot of our developers are not native English speakers I thought that this reference may have gone unnoticed. So I wasn't asking for it to be changed as much as people to conciously decide whether or not it was inline with the project's guidelines. ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Warning -- I am about to break the Windows and MacOS ports!
John McNabb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Why not just have a single file name, main.cfg, and if it exists only
> process it automagically? Internally the main.cfg could define any
> order that is needed. Do we really need to have some sort of
> automatic ordering of a whole bunch of files?
%final.cfg is intened to handle cases like the units/ and terrain-graphics
directories, where you want (for example) to be able to drop in a new unit
.cfg and have it just work. That is, you *don't* want to have to do surgery
on a local %main.cfg.
An alternative to %final.cfg would be to specify that directory
wildcarding from *within the directory itself* ignores %main.cfg, so
that within units/%main.cfg you could say {units} to pull in
everything else in the directory without recursively including %main.cfg
and blowing up.
%final.cfg is the one that can be done in a completely OS-independent
way, though, so the gain from removing it would be low. It's %main.cfg
that needs a Windows port patch.
(On further inspection, it applears we don't actually need any OS X-specific
changes. That was difficult to see because the code is a tangle of #ifdefs.)
--
http://www.catb.org/~esr/";>Eric S. Raymond
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Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Warning -- I am about to break the Windows and MacOS ports!
Why not just have a single file name, main.cfg, and if it exists only process it automagically? Internally the main.cfg could define any order that is needed. Do we really need to have some sort of automatic ordering of a whole bunch of files? I suspect that there is some IRC conversation that this added goal of auto-processing multiple files has come from, since it does not seem to be necessary to achieve the goal you originally stated in your email. I actually think that automatically processing a bunch of files instead of only one is a bad idea for a bunch of reasons, which you might already have discussed and dismissed, but I would be curious to know what the reasoning for this additional goal is. John (aka Darth Fool) On 5/14/07, Eric S. Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > I've done a quick test at work under Windows XP, i could create a %main.cfg > > file. > > The next step should a fix for the get_files_in_dir() to make it detect > and handle %main.cfg as Unix does. > > > If it is really a problem we should probably use some more conventional > > filenames like _main.cfg instead of %main.cfg for example. > > Alas, it appears the ls(1) sort algorithm ignores all leading > non-alphanumerics. I'm reluctantly arriving at the conclusion that we > may have to either (a) abandon the goal of making these special > filenames sort first, or (b) use digit-led names like 00-main.cfg > > Will Windows choke on "00-main.cfg"? > -- > http://www.catb.org/~esr/";>Eric S. Raymond > > ___ > Wesnoth-dev mailing list > Wesnoth-dev@gna.org > https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev > -- --- "In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice they're different." --- John W. C. McNabb --- ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Warning -- I am about to break the Windows and MacOS ports!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > I've done a quick test at work under Windows XP, i could create a %main.cfg > file. The next step should a fix for the get_files_in_dir() to make it detect and handle %main.cfg as Unix does. > If it is really a problem we should probably use some more conventional > filenames like _main.cfg instead of %main.cfg for example. Alas, it appears the ls(1) sort algorithm ignores all leading non-alphanumerics. I'm reluctantly arriving at the conclusion that we may have to either (a) abandon the goal of making these special filenames sort first, or (b) use digit-led names like 00-main.cfg Will Windows choke on "00-main.cfg"? -- http://www.catb.org/~esr/";>Eric S. Raymond ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] SotBE description a bit racy
Am Montag 14 Mai 2007 schrieb Eric S. Raymond: > Fine, let's define a standard. Is PG-13 "unobjectionable"? Wesnoth has many players younger then 10 AFAIK. Bye David ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] SotBE description a bit racy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > It's been our long-standing practice to try to keep mainline > generally unobjectionable? in ways that don't compromise the > fundamental nature of Wesnoth. Fine, let's define a standard. Is PG-13 "unobjectionable"? -- http://www.catb.org/~esr/";>Eric S. Raymond ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Warning -- I am about to break the Windows and MacOS ports!
On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 12:18:16PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> I have written and tested Unix support in the WML preprocessor for two
> extensions:
>
> %final.cfg: if a directory named 'dir' contains a %final.cfg, then
> when processing the files in dir is invoked by the
> construct {dir}, %final.cfg will be processed last.
> (The order in which the other files will be processed
> remains unspecified.)
>
> %main.cfg:if a directory named 'dir' contains a %main.cfg, then
> when processing the files in dir is invoked by the
> construct {dir}, *only* %main.cfg will be processed
> automatically. (It may of course include other files.)
>
> If a directory has both a %main.cfg and a %final.cfg, the %final.cfg
> will be ignored.
>
> The reason for these extensions is to allow directories of .cfg
> files to be self-contained packages. Thus, a campaign named
> "Battle for Fubar" need no longer consist of a Battle_for_Fubar.cfg
> and Battle_for_Fubar subdirectory, but can now consist of the
> Battle_for_Fubar subdirectory containing a %main.cfg.
>
> There are three issues with this, one cosmetic and two fundamental:
>
> 1. The cosmetic issue is that I chose these special names to sort
>to the beginning of ls listings. Sadly, they don't. Therefore the
>special names are likely to have to change.
>
> 2. I don't know what special names are acceptable under Windows and
>MacOS.
>
> 3. get_files_in_dir() needs port patches to implement %main.cfg under
>Windows and Mac OS X. As soon as I commit patches that use these
>features, *those ports are going to break*.
>
> Note to the persons responsible for these ports: please make the small
> patches needed to enable %main.cfg support under your OS. Please
> write it in terms of the symbol MAINCFG, because the name might change.
Well if % isn't supported by some filesystems, it's starting to be messy...
If some developers / packager / whatever use such filesystem it might even be
a problem for svn checkout...
I've done a quick test at work under Windows XP, i could create a %main.cfg
file.
If it is really a problem we should probably use some more conventional
filenames like _main.cfg instead of %main.cfg for example.
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Re: [Wesnoth-dev] SotBE description a bit racy
It's been our long-standing practice to try to keep mainline generally unobjectionable in ways that don't compromise the fundamental nature of Wesnoth. In other words we don't attempt to make people happy who dislike *all* depictions of violence, but we do try to keep *unnecessary* things out of mainline that could turn people away from Wesnoth. We have a looser standard for campaigns on the add-on server, and if SotBE needs to be mildly obscene, it should be returned there. - eleazar j.w.bjerk On May 14, 2007, at 12:00 PM, Eric S. Raymond wrote: Rusty Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: But since orcs aren't supposed to be polite, I assumed this was deliberate. It was quite deliberate. When I reworked the SotBE prose, I spent some time thinking up Orcish epithets for the other speaking peoples. Human-worms, stinky-midgets, tree-shaggers -- they're *supposed* to sound rude and obscene; that's the *point*! If "Austin Powers: The Spy who Shagged Me" could be marketed as PG-13 (and it was) then I think we're on pretty safe ground as regards actual obscenity. -- http://www.catb.org/~esr/";>Eric S. Raymond ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] SotBE description a bit racy
Rusty Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > But since orcs aren't supposed to be polite, I assumed this was > deliberate. It was quite deliberate. When I reworked the SotBE prose, I spent some time thinking up Orcish epithets for the other speaking peoples. Human-worms, stinky-midgets, tree-shaggers -- they're *supposed* to sound rude and obscene; that's the *point*! If "Austin Powers: The Spy who Shagged Me" could be marketed as PG-13 (and it was) then I think we're on pretty safe ground as regards actual obscenity. -- http://www.catb.org/~esr/";>Eric S. Raymond ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] SotBE description a bit racy
Bruno Wolff III <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > I noticed the description for the SotBE campaign uses the term tree-shagger > to refer to elves. For a mailine campaign it might be better to use a more > family friendly term such as tree-hugger. Um...they's *orcs*, not Sunday-school teachers! -- http://www.catb.org/~esr/";>Eric S. Raymond ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Directory objects -- proposed change in preprocessor behavior
Bruno Wolff III <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Personally I think it would make sense to require each campaign to > > be completely self-contained. A more complex alternative would be > > to designate some content (as opposed to campaigns) as core. > > I would think the core is anything in data except for data/campaigns. That's how I view the matter. Actually, I want to move towards 'core' content being structured *exactly the same way* that campaigns now are. This implies some fairly radical (though not player-visible) changes. Notably, we'd have to move from a directory structure like this: wesnoth images sounds music data campaigns Descent_Into_Darkness images : Under_The_Burning_Suns images to one like this: wesnoth data campaigns core images sounds music Descent_Into_Darkness images : Under_The_Burning_Suns images -- http://www.catb.org/~esr/";>Eric S. Raymond ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
[Wesnoth-dev] Warning -- I am about to break the Windows and MacOS ports!
I have written and tested Unix support in the WML preprocessor for two
extensions:
%final.cfg: if a directory named 'dir' contains a %final.cfg, then
when processing the files in dir is invoked by the
construct {dir}, %final.cfg will be processed last.
(The order in which the other files will be processed
remains unspecified.)
%main.cfg:if a directory named 'dir' contains a %main.cfg, then
when processing the files in dir is invoked by the
construct {dir}, *only* %main.cfg will be processed
automatically. (It may of course include other files.)
If a directory has both a %main.cfg and a %final.cfg, the %final.cfg
will be ignored.
The reason for these extensions is to allow directories of .cfg
files to be self-contained packages. Thus, a campaign named
"Battle for Fubar" need no longer consist of a Battle_for_Fubar.cfg
and Battle_for_Fubar subdirectory, but can now consist of the
Battle_for_Fubar subdirectory containing a %main.cfg.
There are three issues with this, one cosmetic and two fundamental:
1. The cosmetic issue is that I chose these special names to sort
to the beginning of ls listings. Sadly, they don't. Therefore the
special names are likely to have to change.
2. I don't know what special names are acceptable under Windows and
MacOS.
3. get_files_in_dir() needs port patches to implement %main.cfg under
Windows and Mac OS X. As soon as I commit patches that use these
features, *those ports are going to break*.
Note to the persons responsible for these ports: please make the small
patches needed to enable %main.cfg support under your OS. Please
write it in terms of the symbol MAINCFG, because the name might change.
--
http://www.catb.org/~esr/";>Eric S. Raymond
Ideology, politics and journalism, which luxuriate in failure, are
impotent in the face of hope and joy.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
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