Re: [Wikimediach-l] Do we use (american) cloud solutions at WMCH Q
> My request is specifically targeted to WMCH, our swiss chapter, not to > any other entity of our movement. I understand. So the only "third parties" that receive data from the Swiss Chapter are the organizations that run the servers in the US and therefore the NSA, the CIA, etc. Hartwig ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] Do we use (american) cloud solutions at WMCH Q
On 10/06/13 19:31, Emmanuel Engelhart wrote: Thank you very much for this detailed answer. Congratulations for making WMCH infrastructure almost not depending of these type of problematic services (not the same in all chapters). Thanks to Manuel, we have a full set of services available "locally" (on the servers he hosts) -- and a privacy policy that has been tailored to our situation, too. Some informal exchanges of files are still done using Dropbox; now is probably a good time to get rid of them. I propose to invite all concerned users to: * create a WMCH mailbox for them * change the target email address to something more acceptable like email box from the provider or european web mails like GMX. Full disclosure: I am one of the people who have their @wikimedia.ch email forwarded; in my case, it goes to a Swiss provider (with servers located in Switzerland). Everybody's situation is different; for me, this is much better (for practical reasons) than a mailbox. F. ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] Do we use (american) cloud solutions at WMCH Q
Hi Manuel Le 10/06/2013 19:53, Manuel Schneider a écrit : > Am 10.06.2013 19:31, schrieb Emmanuel Engelhart: >> I propose to invite all concerned users to: >> * create a WMCH mailbox for them >> * change the target email address to something more acceptable like >> email box from the provider or european web mails like GMX. >> >> Would that be feasible? >> Does something speaks against such type of restriction? > > generally all users who have asked for a WMCH mail address are initially > offered an IMAP mailbox and I normally tell people why this is better > than a redirect - just out of practical reasons, put ideological / data > security aside. > Anyway, if it is the whish of the user to get his mail forwarded > instead, who am I to deny it? > > Anything else - any restrictions - should be decided by the board. > > Just as a summary what we are talking about, after a short look on the > mailserver: > * 6 redirects to gmail (Google) (1 staff) > * 1 redirect to Hotmail (Microsoft) (1 board) > * 2 swiss domains whose MX records point to swiss mailservers (both board) > * 5 addresses redirecting to the WMF > > To be honest: I understand and agree with your scepticism towards > private data flowing through third parties which are bound to make > benefit with that data (Google and Hotmail are free, and not because the > are philantroph) even withing countries which are known to spy on their > citizens. Anyway I am not sure that even if we were sure that our data > is being spied at if it was valuable enough to force our volunteers to > abandon their primary mail accounts. > > It is a different situation for the board, even though they are still > volunteers they do deal with sensitive data, but that should not > normally not be transfered via e-mail anyway. Your approach of promoting mailboxes vs. redirects makes a lot of sense. If we achieve to do that for staff/board, we are on the secure side. Other email addresses are less critical... but we should keep a vigilant eye on that, we are responsible for our data... also if that could bother users. > For the staff it is clear: that can only be a mailbox. So in that one > case I am happy you made me aware of a problem. I will talk to that person. > > For myself I try to adopt a sceptic but pragmatic approach: Sometimes I > use Google services but only where I have no good replacement (mainly > Google spreadsheets) and then only for a temporary usage. I don't want > to rely on it. I use it for a certain task, then I store the result > elsewhere. Otherwise I use these services - this applies to all kind of > Social Networks where we have the same scepticism for a different reason > - with data I really and deliberately want to publish. So that data > can't be "stolen" or misused anyway. Great! Good evening Emmanuel ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] Do we use (american) cloud solutions at WMCH Q
Am 10.06.2013 19:31, schrieb Emmanuel Engelhart: > I propose to invite all concerned users to: > * create a WMCH mailbox for them > * change the target email address to something more acceptable like > email box from the provider or european web mails like GMX. > > Would that be feasible? > Does something speaks against such type of restriction? generally all users who have asked for a WMCH mail address are initially offered an IMAP mailbox and I normally tell people why this is better than a redirect - just out of practical reasons, put ideological / data security aside. Anyway, if it is the whish of the user to get his mail forwarded instead, who am I to deny it? Anything else - any restrictions - should be decided by the board. Just as a summary what we are talking about, after a short look on the mailserver: * 6 redirects to gmail (Google) (1 staff) * 1 redirect to Hotmail (Microsoft) (1 board) * 2 swiss domains whose MX records point to swiss mailservers (both board) * 5 addresses redirecting to the WMF To be honest: I understand and agree with your scepticism towards private data flowing through third parties which are bound to make benefit with that data (Google and Hotmail are free, and not because the are philantroph) even withing countries which are known to spy on their citizens. Anyway I am not sure that even if we were sure that our data is being spied at if it was valuable enough to force our volunteers to abandon their primary mail accounts. It is a different situation for the board, even though they are still volunteers they do deal with sensitive data, but that should not normally not be transfered via e-mail anyway. For the staff it is clear: that can only be a mailbox. So in that one case I am happy you made me aware of a problem. I will talk to that person. For myself I try to adopt a sceptic but pragmatic approach: Sometimes I use Google services but only where I have no good replacement (mainly Google spreadsheets) and then only for a temporary usage. I don't want to rely on it. I use it for a certain task, then I store the result elsewhere. Otherwise I use these services - this applies to all kind of Social Networks where we have the same scepticism for a different reason - with data I really and deliberately want to publish. So that data can't be "stolen" or misused anyway. /Manuel -- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] Do we use (american) cloud solutions at WMCH Q
Le 10/06/2013 18:23, Manuel Schneider a écrit : > I can only speak about the processes within WMCH which are know to me or > where I am part of. > So far these processes mainly use self-hosted IT ressources. On our four > server instances we run a variety of services: > * mail (SMTP/IMAP) > * webserver / content management systems / wikis > * shell / file access (ssh / sftp) > * videoconferencing > * groupware / calendars / address books / ActiveSync > * file server / webDAV storage > * backup server > The servers for this are technically and physically under full control > of WMCH (me as a member and contractor of WMCH) and located in a > datacentre in Germany which I am paying for space, access control, > power, a/c and bandwidth. Exceptions are the office and backup servers > which are virtual hosts located on a physical server in our Lausanne office. > > External services regularly used are: > * phone / SIP lines via Swisscom > * internet connectivity via Swisscom > * mobile phones via Orange and Swisscom > > Other external services we don't use as infrastructure: > * sometimes we use the WMF Etherpad for drafting text documents > * social networks - G+, Facebook, Twitter for publishing news > * some users of WMCH mail addresses redirect their mail to external > services not under our control > > There might be processes which I am not aware of which make use of > external platforms. Thank you very much for this detailed answer. Congratulations for making WMCH infrastructure almost not depending of these type of problematic services (not the same in all chapters). The only point I see which could be improved is the forwarding to email boxes at Google/Yahoo/Microsoft accounts. I understand this is not under our direct control, but I think we should try to avoid sending internal information to such type of accounts in favour of companies/legislations which are more respectful of our data. I propose to invite all concerned users to: * create a WMCH mailbox for them * change the target email address to something more acceptable like email box from the provider or european web mails like GMX. Would that be feasible? Does something speaks against such type of restriction? Kind regards Emmanuel ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] Do we use (american) cloud solutions at WMCH Q
Hi Emmanuel, I can only speak about the processes within WMCH which are know to me or where I am part of. So far these processes mainly use self-hosted IT ressources. On our four server instances we run a variety of services: * mail (SMTP/IMAP) * webserver / content management systems / wikis * shell / file access (ssh / sftp) * videoconferencing * groupware / calendars / address books / ActiveSync * file server / webDAV storage * backup server The servers for this are technically and physically under full control of WMCH (me as a member and contractor of WMCH) and located in a datacentre in Germany which I am paying for space, access control, power, a/c and bandwidth. Exceptions are the office and backup servers which are virtual hosts located on a physical server in our Lausanne office. External services regularly used are: * phone / SIP lines via Swisscom * internet connectivity via Swisscom * mobile phones via Orange and Swisscom Other external services we don't use as infrastructure: * sometimes we use the WMF Etherpad for drafting text documents * social networks - G+, Facebook, Twitter for publishing news * some users of WMCH mail addresses redirect their mail to external services not under our control There might be processes which I am not aware of which make use of external platforms. /Manuel Am 10.06.2013 11:42, schrieb Emmanuel Engelhart: > The last PRISM scandal show us again how the american governement and > web companies don't care about our private data: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%29 > > On the other side, our members deserve a total privacy regarding their data. > > So, my question is pretty simple and for Manuel, who is certainly the > only one with the right overview: Which precise usage does the > association internally do of (American) cloud solutions (Facebook, > Twitter, Google, Dropbox, Skype...)? > > Setting-up a precise list of services with use cases would be IMO > extremely useful to evaluate our current dependance. -- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] Do we use (american) cloud solutions at WMCH Q
Le 10/06/2013 14:41, Hartwig Thomas a écrit :
> I believe that such a "precise list" is an illusion.
>
> The servers as well as the legal bodies are in the US and thus are subject to
> US law.
> Therefore the operators of these servers will do anything the law requires
> them to do, just as an operator ("provider") in Switzerland would have to
> follow the Swiss laws (BÜPF, Nachrichtendienst-Gesetz, ...). The US law does
> not - like the Swiss or European privacy laws - require these operators to
> reveal to the person whose data are stored, how they are used or to whom they
> are given. Quite the contrary some of these US laws require the operators to
> keep this kind of information secret. It is unreasonable to believe, that
> Wikimedia Foundation would break such US laws, just because some Europeans
> have a different idea of privacy.
>
> Besides the Internet technology is "open". So the operators of these "cloud"
> servers have absolutely no control over the path any TCP/IP package takes
> between here and their server. So even if they did give us a "precise list",
> it would be worth nothing, because the eavesdropping can take place one step
> removed from these servers.
>
> So if you want European style privacy - and if you believe in its honest
> reinforcement in Europe or in Switzerland - then you should not store your
> data on a server in the US or encrypt it. If, however, the data are public
> anyway, as is the case with most Wikimedia content, then this kind of privacy
> is not a concern. The main risk I see in this more realistic scenario, is
> that the US government might "arrest" such data and delete them or make them
> otherwise inaccessible. Therefore it is certainly useful, if the
> publicdomainproject keeps a copy of its data on Wikimedia Commons on some
> European server as a backup.
My request is specifically targeted to WMCH, our swiss chapter, not to
any other entity of our movement.
Emmanuel
___
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] Do we use (american) cloud solutions at WMCH Q
I believe that such a "precise list" is an illusion.
The servers as well as the legal bodies are in the US and thus are subject to
US law.
Therefore the operators of these servers will do anything the law requires them
to do, just as an operator ("provider") in Switzerland would have to follow the
Swiss laws (BÜPF, Nachrichtendienst-Gesetz, ...). The US law does not - like
the Swiss or European privacy laws - require these operators to reveal to the
person whose data are stored, how they are used or to whom they are given.
Quite the contrary some of these US laws require the operators to keep this
kind of information secret. It is unreasonable to believe, that Wikimedia
Foundation would break such US laws, just because some Europeans have a
different idea of privacy.
Besides the Internet technology is "open". So the operators of these "cloud"
servers have absolutely no control over the path any TCP/IP package takes
between here and their server. So even if they did give us a "precise list", it
would be worth nothing, because the eavesdropping can take place one step
removed from these servers.
So if you want European style privacy - and if you believe in its honest
reinforcement in Europe or in Switzerland - then you should not store your data
on a server in the US or encrypt it. If, however, the data are public anyway,
as is the case with most Wikimedia content, then this kind of privacy is not a
concern. The main risk I see in this more realistic scenario, is that the US
government might "arrest" such data and delete them or make them otherwise
inaccessible. Therefore it is certainly useful, if the publicdomainproject
keeps a copy of its data on Wikimedia Commons on some European server as a
backup.
Hartwig
-Original Message-
From: wikimediach-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediach-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Emmanuel
Engelhart
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 11:42 AM
To: Mailing list for Wikimedia CH
Subject: [Wikimediach-l] Do we use (american) cloud solutions at WMCH Q
Hi
The last PRISM scandal show us again how the american governement and
web companies don't care about our private data:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%29
On the other side, our members deserve a total privacy regarding their data.
So, my question is pretty simple and for Manuel, who is certainly the
only one with the right overview: Which precise usage does the
association internally do of (American) cloud solutions (Facebook,
Twitter, Google, Dropbox, Skype...)?
Setting-up a precise list of services with use cases would be IMO
extremely useful to evaluate our current dependance.
Regards
Emmanuel
___
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
___
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
[Wikimediach-l] Do we use (american) cloud solutions at WMCH Q
Hi The last PRISM scandal show us again how the american governement and web companies don't care about our private data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%29 On the other side, our members deserve a total privacy regarding their data. So, my question is pretty simple and for Manuel, who is certainly the only one with the right overview: Which precise usage does the association internally do of (American) cloud solutions (Facebook, Twitter, Google, Dropbox, Skype...)? Setting-up a precise list of services with use cases would be IMO extremely useful to evaluate our current dependance. Regards Emmanuel ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
[Wikimediach-l] Wikimedia CH General Assembly and 2014 Call for project
Dear all, ==AGM== Wikimedia CH had its Annual General Meeting, April the 27 this year. A new board has been elected, and will officially start its mandate June 27: President: Charles Andrès (reelected) Secretary: Frédéric Schutz (reelected nut new secretary, FR press contact) Treasurer: Bagawathram Maheswaran (reelected) Patrick Kenel (reelected, DE press contact) Gabriel Thullen (reelected) Matina Hämmerli (newly elected) Mauro Cassina (newly elected) Matina originally studied theology, became an enterpreneur (software company) and founder of care projects in India. Observed the miraculous and prospective development of community technology and culture, the internet, from the early 90's. Recognized Wikipedia as a milestone because it proofed and made visible to everybody: community and technology matches. She joined the board with the to support the organization with strong and efficient structures. Mauro, born in the 1954 in Lugano, is active in Wikimedia communities since 2005 and active mainly in Commons as he is photographer like hobby. In the real life he is the account manager for the provider of the energy and water of the town of Lugano. For his job he is also an organizer of events and he has been one of the main organizer of the Wikipedia Day in Lugano. Documents available: 2012 Annual report 2012 Financial report 2012 Auditors report DE EN ==Call for Project== Wikimedia CH launched its second cal for project last June 1st. The CfP is intend Into prepare the 2014 Wikimedia CH budget and the associated annual plan. Please note that this program plan may not be the definitive Wikimedia CH 2014 program plan, but the one included in the next FDC proposal. This year we introduce two definitions for the projects: • Volunteer driven • Staff driven The Volunteer driven projects are projects proposed by one, or a group of WMCH members, that require only financial support and basic staff support (standard Community manager support). The Volunteer driven projects should be recognized as useful for the association or the Wikimedia movement, and so it should be a community decision to decide whether or not they should be supported. The Staff driven projects are projects proposed by volunteers that require essentially staff work, or proposed by staff themselves. These projects should also be recognized as useful for the association or the Wikimedia movement, and so the community opinion is needed to decide whether or not they should be support. Eventually, the staff driven projects need to be chosen by the Board among the projects supported by the members in order to assure a good distribution of the workload between the staff. Wikimedia CH adopt the following guidelines to rules our projects: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CH/Project_Guidelines The call for project will follow a 4 month process: June 1st, launch of the call July 1st, start of the community comment period July 31th, end of application August 31th, publication by the board of the 2014 annual plan on Meta September, Whole movement comments period on meta October 1st, Application to the FDC The first phase of the CfP will happen on wikimedia CH members wiki (restricted access), followed by a public comment period on META. sincerely Charles ___ Charles ANDRES, Chairman "Wikimedia CH" – Association for the advancement of free knowledge – www.wikimedia.ch Office +41 (0)21 340 66 20 Skype: charles.andres.wmch IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
