Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Let's face it - there are bigots of all kinds in the world. As you point out, "mental" illness is often a physical deficiency that affects the mechanisms of the brain. My mother was "mentally" ill most of her life, and we suffered greatly for it. Near her death (heart failure resulting from an allergic reaction to an iodine compound given for a liver test) it was noted by me that she became normal after a dialysis treatment, and gradually faded back to certifiable after about 6 weeks. The best guess at this late date is that she suffered from a dopamine imbalance. Oh how I wish that she had some drugs available to help her (and my father and four brothers) then. I have run into allergy bigots (it's all in your head), addiction bigots (you just have to gut it out), mental illness bigots (just grow up), etc. Like Jim sort of suggests, take your pills and tell 'em it's insulin. Jon Jim Cobabe wrote: > > My regular diatribe on this question-- > > Those of us who now need or have needed psychotrophic drugs for personal > maintenance face serious enough challenges in life, without having to > contend with unqualified people who presume to know all about our > illnesses and afflictions. And sadly, there is no end to the stigma > attached to any manifestation of mental illness. In spite of all the > talk denying that such unfair discrimination exists, anyone who has been > there has probably found himself more tightly restrained than by any > strong guys in white coats, strait jackets, or padded rooms. > > When we need drugs to sustain our lives, a chemical that restores > balance to the physical function of the brain is not different from the > insulin that allows a diabetic to supplement the insufficient function > of his pancreas. There are any number of additional parallels. Yet > sufferers from mental illness are still a special class of people in our > society, reserved for generally unwarranted special treatment, and > generally unfavorable discrimination. > > Please never attempt to discourage anyone from taking the drugs that are > in the current array of defenses against mental illness. Many of these > drugs have unpleasant side effects that we would just as soon not have > to deal with. Even more important, we inflict the shame of stigma upon > our own selves, and taking medicine for such an illness seems like > admitting to yourself that you're something less than an worthy person. > Yet these drugs might well help some of us make something hopeful and > worthwhile from a life that would otherwise languish and be wasted in > despair. > > If you need such drugs, don't let anyone discourage you from taking them > as directed by your doctor. Always remember to take your pills on > schedule. > > Remember too that we are not alone in bearing such burdens, and don't be > discouraged by the idle talk of people that don't understand your > problems. We do what we must to survive, and face another day. To > endure to the end is our mission. Even if it takes a few pills to help > us get by. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
There should definitely be concern, and I don't think enough is being done. I think part of the problem comes because not enough steps are being taken to find out when family domination becomes unrighteous. Stacy. At 03:57 PM 11/22/2002 -0700, you wrote: Stacy: Add to this mess people whose families are controlling and a society that does not care about that and you have a recipe for psychological anxiety-producing events of such a magnitude we haven't seen in past ages. Dan: Right. So what can the church do to help individuals and families deal with these problems before the only thing left is to pick up the pieces? Drugs offer us an incredible tool for dealing with acute problems, but they shouldn't be the catch-all, "one-size-fits-all" solution. I'm not advocating ignoring a doctor's orders, but shouldn't there be some concern when large numbers of members need drugs to function? Stacy. At 06:42 AM 11/22/2002 -0600, you wrote: > >It was brought up in a larger discussion about the number of people in >the > >ward suffering from depression, and the church's change to being more > >supportive of people using drugs to overcome it. > > >Yep. I'm a big goof and shoot my mouth off all the time and tell people >about my problems to members of the ward. And in return, they tell me a >little bit about their problems. A lot of people are on meds and that is >no exaggeration. My elders quorum president is on them too and so is the >bishop's wife. The list goes on and on. This crazy world we live in is >driving people nuts. It's complicated, fast paced, demanding, and >financially more difficult to pilot then it has ever been. We are being >squeezed by the demands and complications of modern living. Do this do >that. Deadlines, red lights, no bonus, bad economy, computer & car >problems, etc... > >Paul O >[EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Something else to ponder
It depends on the drug. Some are more psychotropic than others. Most of today's meds just normalize the serotonin and other natural drugs in the brain, so they probably don't affect the feeling of the Spirit much. But those drugs that depress all emotion could affect one's ability, I suppose. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: My first observation still stands. :Even though we feel we need some of these chemicals, does it limit personal revelation? I wasn't trying to ridicule, only trying to figure out whether or not these things would limit our ability to get personal revelation. Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Something else to Ponder
And it isn't as fun for the mentally ill today. I mean, you don't get to have those electric shocks from the mid 1900s. Or, even better, you aren't considered witches in early Salem and burned at the stake. And, of course, there are those possessed souls in the Bible, who were allowed to run wild in the wilderness, and eat with the animals (a la Nebuchadnezzar). Yeah, I can see just how difficult it is today, compared to previous eras. ;-) I do understand there still is much mental illness out there and it needs treating. I'm glad for those who can live rather normal lives with medicine, etc. It is a different world today, because we keep the mentally ill at home, rather than locking them up for years. For some people, it is still a difficult topic, but I think more and more people are learning to handle it as a long term medical issue, rather than as a devil possession. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: Yep. I'm a big goof and shoot my mouth off all the time and tell people about my problems to members of the ward. And in return, they tell me a little bit about their problems. A lot of people are on meds and that is no exaggeration. My elders quorum president is on them too and so is the bishop's wife. The list goes on and on. This crazy world we live in is driving people nuts. It's complicated, fast paced, demanding, and financially more difficult to pilot then it has ever been. We are being squeezed by the demands and complications of modern living. Do this do that. Deadlines, red lights, no bonus, bad economy, computer & car problems, etc... Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Stacy: Well, how many of them are diagnosed with true ADHD? Dan: I think that is part of the issue. Without going to the expense of sending every missionary so diagnosed to a recognized specialist, the church needs to accept the decision of the missionary's family doctor. But how was that diagnosis made: the patients request, the parents request, the _schools_ request, or how? If the number of missionaries on Ritalin is truly that high (I'm not convinced of this, which is why I asked if anyone else had heard of it) then I believe there is cause for concern. I have a hard time accepting the claim that such a large portion of society is incapable of functioning in our society without the use of chemical augmentation; some certainly, but that many? Stacy. At 03:01 PM 11/21/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Dan R Allen wrote: >--- >This very subject came up in a meeting I attended recently, and a >statistic was thrown out that I found rather shocking: 40% of >missionaries from North America are supposably on Ritalyn. Has anyone >else heard this? >--- > >Jim: >It seems more likely that this report is conflated with other legitimate >concerns. It is widely reported that Ritalin is popular for >prescription drug abuse on college campuses. > >"http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/children/01/08/college.ritalin/"; > >I would need to see more substantive information sources to think that >Ritalin would be so widely prescribed for young missionaries. And based >on my own observation, I seriously doubt that illegal drug use is a >widespread problem among Church missionaries. > >Dan: >The comment wasn't made in the mode of abuse/illegal use, but the belief >that a large number of missionaries are reporting to the mission field with >pre-existing prescriptions, and that it might be playing a factor in where >missionaries are assigned (the assumption was that the drug and >prescriptions are easier to maintain/fill in NA.) >I do know that it is heavily prescribed, whether justified or not I can't >really say. >It was brought up in a larger discussion about the number of people in the >ward suffering from depression, and the church's change to being more >supportive of people using drugs to overcome it. > >// >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// >/ > > > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Stacy: Add to this mess people whose families are controlling and a society that does not care about that and you have a recipe for psychological anxiety-producing events of such a magnitude we haven't seen in past ages. Dan: Right. So what can the church do to help individuals and families deal with these problems before the only thing left is to pick up the pieces? Drugs offer us an incredible tool for dealing with acute problems, but they shouldn't be the catch-all, "one-size-fits-all" solution. I'm not advocating ignoring a doctor's orders, but shouldn't there be some concern when large numbers of members need drugs to function? Stacy. At 06:42 AM 11/22/2002 -0600, you wrote: > >It was brought up in a larger discussion about the number of people in >the > >ward suffering from depression, and the church's change to being more > >supportive of people using drugs to overcome it. > > >Yep. I'm a big goof and shoot my mouth off all the time and tell people >about my problems to members of the ward. And in return, they tell me a >little bit about their problems. A lot of people are on meds and that is >no exaggeration. My elders quorum president is on them too and so is the >bishop's wife. The list goes on and on. This crazy world we live in is >driving people nuts. It's complicated, fast paced, demanding, and >financially more difficult to pilot then it has ever been. We are being >squeezed by the demands and complications of modern living. Do this do >that. Deadlines, red lights, no bonus, bad economy, computer & car >problems, etc... > >Paul O >[EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
>My first observation still stands. :Even though we feel we need some of >these chemicals, does it limit personal revelation? I wasn't trying to >ridicule, only trying to figure out whether or not these things would limit >our ability to get personal revelation. Personal revelation without meds? I doubt it. Without meds there is no use in living. All is vanity and God is not to be heard. So it seems to me. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something else to ponder
My first observation still stands. :Even though we feel we need some of these chemicals, does it limit personal revelation? I wasn't trying to ridicule, only trying to figure out whether or not these things would limit our ability to get personal revelation. Stacy. At 06:58 PM 11/21/2002 +, you wrote: My regular diatribe on this question-- Those of us who now need or have needed psychotrophic drugs for personal maintenance face serious enough challenges in life, without having to contend with unqualified people who presume to know all about our illnesses and afflictions. And sadly, there is no end to the stigma attached to any manifestation of mental illness. In spite of all the talk denying that such unfair discrimination exists, anyone who has been there has probably found himself more tightly restrained than by any strong guys in white coats, strait jackets, or padded rooms. When we need drugs to sustain our lives, a chemical that restores balance to the physical function of the brain is not different from the insulin that allows a diabetic to supplement the insufficient function of his pancreas. There are any number of additional parallels. Yet sufferers from mental illness are still a special class of people in our society, reserved for generally unwarranted special treatment, and generally unfavorable discrimination. Please never attempt to discourage anyone from taking the drugs that are in the current array of defenses against mental illness. Many of these drugs have unpleasant side effects that we would just as soon not have to deal with. Even more important, we inflict the shame of stigma upon our own selves, and taking medicine for such an illness seems like admitting to yourself that you're something less than an worthy person. Yet these drugs might well help some of us make something hopeful and worthwhile from a life that would otherwise languish and be wasted in despair. If you need such drugs, don't let anyone discourage you from taking them as directed by your doctor. Always remember to take your pills on schedule. Remember too that we are not alone in bearing such burdens, and don't be discouraged by the idle talk of people that don't understand your problems. We do what we must to survive, and face another day. To endure to the end is our mission. Even if it takes a few pills to help us get by. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Unfortunately, I cannot use today's type drugs. They cause severe itching. I have had to resort to 20-year-old discovered medicines. Stacy. At 12:09 PM 11/21/2002 -0700, you wrote: Gary: The Church's official position is that we should use some caution with medications for mental illness. However, it has drastically backed off from some statements made by General Authorities even 20 years or less ago. Elder Packer had a speech (Be Ye Not Troubled), where he warned about the overuse of psychiatrists and medications. I haven't heard him warn about it in many years, though. Part of this may have to do with the drastic change in medical developments over the past couple decades. Older drugs used to paralyze emotions, while today's drugs are more effective in just moderating them. Dan: This very subject came up in a meeting I attended recently, and a statistic was thrown out that I found rather shocking: 40% of missionaries from North America are supposably on Ritalyn. Has anyone else heard this? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Well, how many of them are diagnosed with true ADHD? Stacy. At 03:01 PM 11/21/2002 -0700, you wrote: Dan R Allen wrote: --- This very subject came up in a meeting I attended recently, and a statistic was thrown out that I found rather shocking: 40% of missionaries from North America are supposably on Ritalyn. Has anyone else heard this? --- Jim: It seems more likely that this report is conflated with other legitimate concerns. It is widely reported that Ritalin is popular for prescription drug abuse on college campuses. "http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/children/01/08/college.ritalin/"; I would need to see more substantive information sources to think that Ritalin would be so widely prescribed for young missionaries. And based on my own observation, I seriously doubt that illegal drug use is a widespread problem among Church missionaries. Dan: The comment wasn't made in the mode of abuse/illegal use, but the belief that a large number of missionaries are reporting to the mission field with pre-existing prescriptions, and that it might be playing a factor in where missionaries are assigned (the assumption was that the drug and prescriptions are easier to maintain/fill in NA.) I do know that it is heavily prescribed, whether justified or not I can't really say. It was brought up in a larger discussion about the number of people in the ward suffering from depression, and the church's change to being more supportive of people using drugs to overcome it. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Add to this mess people whose families are controlling and a society that does not care about that and you have a recipe for psychological anxiety-producing events of such a magnitude we haven't seen in past ages. Stacy. At 06:42 AM 11/22/2002 -0600, you wrote: >It was brought up in a larger discussion about the number of people in the >ward suffering from depression, and the church's change to being more >supportive of people using drugs to overcome it. Yep. I'm a big goof and shoot my mouth off all the time and tell people about my problems to members of the ward. And in return, they tell me a little bit about their problems. A lot of people are on meds and that is no exaggeration. My elders quorum president is on them too and so is the bishop's wife. The list goes on and on. This crazy world we live in is driving people nuts. It's complicated, fast paced, demanding, and financially more difficult to pilot then it has ever been. We are being squeezed by the demands and complications of modern living. Do this do that. Deadlines, red lights, no bonus, bad economy, computer & car problems, etc... Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
>It was brought up in a larger discussion about the number of people in the >ward suffering from depression, and the church's change to being more >supportive of people using drugs to overcome it. Yep. I'm a big goof and shoot my mouth off all the time and tell people about my problems to members of the ward. And in return, they tell me a little bit about their problems. A lot of people are on meds and that is no exaggeration. My elders quorum president is on them too and so is the bishop's wife. The list goes on and on. This crazy world we live in is driving people nuts. It's complicated, fast paced, demanding, and financially more difficult to pilot then it has ever been. We are being squeezed by the demands and complications of modern living. Do this do that. Deadlines, red lights, no bonus, bad economy, computer & car problems, etc... Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Jim, I just read your post to my wife and she told me to tell you that you are her hero and she has a crush on you now! She studies mental illness very seriously. What an excellent post! Paul O On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:58:46 + Jim Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > My regular diatribe on this question-- > > Those of us who now need or have needed psychotrophic drugs for > personal > maintenance face serious enough challenges in life, without having > to > contend with unqualified people who presume to know all about our > illnesses and afflictions. And sadly, there is no end to the stigma > > attached to any manifestation of mental illness. In spite of all > the > talk denying that such unfair discrimination exists, anyone who has > been > there has probably found himself more tightly restrained than by any > > strong guys in white coats, strait jackets, or padded rooms. > > When we need drugs to sustain our lives, a chemical that restores > balance to the physical function of the brain is not different from > the > insulin that allows a diabetic to supplement the insufficient > function > of his pancreas. There are any number of additional parallels. Yet > > sufferers from mental illness are still a special class of people in > our > society, reserved for generally unwarranted special treatment, and > generally unfavorable discrimination. > > Please never attempt to discourage anyone from taking the drugs that > are > in the current array of defenses against mental illness. Many of > these > drugs have unpleasant side effects that we would just as soon not > have > to deal with. Even more important, we inflict the shame of stigma > upon > our own selves, and taking medicine for such an illness seems like > admitting to yourself that you're something less than an worthy > person. > Yet these drugs might well help some of us make something hopeful > and > worthwhile from a life that would otherwise languish and be wasted > in > despair. > > If you need such drugs, don't let anyone discourage you from taking > them > as directed by your doctor. Always remember to take your pills on > schedule. > > Remember too that we are not alone in bearing such burdens, and don't > be > discouraged by the idle talk of people that don't understand your > problems. We do what we must to survive, and face another day. To > > endure to the end is our mission. Even if it takes a few pills to > help > us get by. > > --- > Mij Ebaboc Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Dan R Allen wrote: --- This very subject came up in a meeting I attended recently, and a statistic was thrown out that I found rather shocking: 40% of missionaries from North America are supposably on Ritalyn. Has anyone else heard this? --- Jim: It seems more likely that this report is conflated with other legitimate concerns. It is widely reported that Ritalin is popular for prescription drug abuse on college campuses. "http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/children/01/08/college.ritalin/"; I would need to see more substantive information sources to think that Ritalin would be so widely prescribed for young missionaries. And based on my own observation, I seriously doubt that illegal drug use is a widespread problem among Church missionaries. Dan: The comment wasn't made in the mode of abuse/illegal use, but the belief that a large number of missionaries are reporting to the mission field with pre-existing prescriptions, and that it might be playing a factor in where missionaries are assigned (the assumption was that the drug and prescriptions are easier to maintain/fill in NA.) I do know that it is heavily prescribed, whether justified or not I can't really say. It was brought up in a larger discussion about the number of people in the ward suffering from depression, and the church's change to being more supportive of people using drugs to overcome it. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Dan R Allen wrote: --- This very subject came up in a meeting I attended recently, and a statistic was thrown out that I found rather shocking: 40% of missionaries from North America are supposably on Ritalyn. Has anyone else heard this? --- It seems more likely that this report is conflated with other legitimate concerns. It is widely reported that Ritalin is popular for prescription drug abuse on college campuses. "http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/children/01/08/college.ritalin/"; I would need to see more substantive information sources to think that Ritalin would be so widely prescribed for young missionaries. And based on my own observation, I seriously doubt that illegal drug use is a widespread problem among Church missionaries. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
At 12:25 11/21/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote: Well said. I call these well-meaning critics "Job's Comforters." My least favourite (although, again, they're just trying to help) are those who insist that I try the latest non-technological fad, be it Tahitian berries or special massages, and when I tell them I've tried traditional medicine, their response is 100% predictable: "but this one's new and it WORKS!" I've never learned how to respond tactfully. May I suggest a weekend at Till's lowly shack. It works for him! Till the 8>)) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Jim Cobabe wrote: > My regular diatribe on this question-- > > Those of us who now need or have needed psychotrophic drugs for personal > maintenance face serious enough challenges in life, without having to > contend with unqualified people who presume to know all about our > illnesses and afflictions. And sadly, there is no end to the stigma > attached to any manifestation of mental illness. In spite of all the > talk denying that such unfair discrimination exists, anyone who has been > there has probably found himself more tightly restrained than by any > strong guys in white coats, strait jackets, or padded rooms. > Well said. I call these well-meaning critics "Job's Comforters." My least favourite (although, again, they're just trying to help) are those who insist that I try the latest non-technological fad, be it Tahitian berries or special massages, and when I tell them I've tried traditional medicine, their response is 100% predictable: "but this one's new and it WORKS!" I've never learned how to respond tactfully. > > When we need drugs to sustain our lives, a chemical that restores > balance to the physical function of the brain is not different from the > insulin that allows a diabetic to supplement the insufficient function > of his pancreas. There are any number of additional parallels. Yet > sufferers from mental illness are still a special class of people in our > society, reserved for generally unwarranted special treatment, and > generally unfavorable discrimination. > > Please never attempt to discourage anyone from taking the drugs that are > in the current array of defenses against mental illness. Many of these > drugs have unpleasant side effects that we would just as soon not have > to deal with. Even more important, we inflict the shame of stigma upon > our own selves, and taking medicine for such an illness seems like > admitting to yourself that you're something less than an worthy person. > Yet these drugs might well help some of us make something hopeful and > worthwhile from a life that would otherwise languish and be wasted in > despair. > > If you need such drugs, don't let anyone discourage you from taking them > as directed by your doctor. Always remember to take your pills on > schedule. > > Remember too that we are not alone in bearing such burdens, and don't be > discouraged by the idle talk of people that don't understand your > problems. We do what we must to survive, and face another day. To > endure to the end is our mission. Even if it takes a few pills to help > us get by. > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Dan: >This very subject came up in a meeting I attended recently, and a statistic >was thrown out that I found rather shocking: 40% of missionaries from North >America are supposably on Ritalyn. Has anyone else heard this? All three of my kids take it. I couldn't even begin to list all the medications they take or have taken. We have a plastic basket full of every kind of pill bottles you can imagine at my house. My doctor just gave me 60 more tranqs and a refill too! Aaahh. ;-o Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Gary: The Church's official position is that we should use some caution with medications for mental illness. However, it has drastically backed off from some statements made by General Authorities even 20 years or less ago. Elder Packer had a speech (Be Ye Not Troubled), where he warned about the overuse of psychiatrists and medications. I haven't heard him warn about it in many years, though. Part of this may have to do with the drastic change in medical developments over the past couple decades. Older drugs used to paralyze emotions, while today's drugs are more effective in just moderating them. Dan: This very subject came up in a meeting I attended recently, and a statistic was thrown out that I found rather shocking: 40% of missionaries from North America are supposably on Ritalyn. Has anyone else heard this? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something else to ponder
My regular diatribe on this question-- Those of us who now need or have needed psychotrophic drugs for personal maintenance face serious enough challenges in life, without having to contend with unqualified people who presume to know all about our illnesses and afflictions. And sadly, there is no end to the stigma attached to any manifestation of mental illness. In spite of all the talk denying that such unfair discrimination exists, anyone who has been there has probably found himself more tightly restrained than by any strong guys in white coats, strait jackets, or padded rooms. When we need drugs to sustain our lives, a chemical that restores balance to the physical function of the brain is not different from the insulin that allows a diabetic to supplement the insufficient function of his pancreas. There are any number of additional parallels. Yet sufferers from mental illness are still a special class of people in our society, reserved for generally unwarranted special treatment, and generally unfavorable discrimination. Please never attempt to discourage anyone from taking the drugs that are in the current array of defenses against mental illness. Many of these drugs have unpleasant side effects that we would just as soon not have to deal with. Even more important, we inflict the shame of stigma upon our own selves, and taking medicine for such an illness seems like admitting to yourself that you're something less than an worthy person. Yet these drugs might well help some of us make something hopeful and worthwhile from a life that would otherwise languish and be wasted in despair. If you need such drugs, don't let anyone discourage you from taking them as directed by your doctor. Always remember to take your pills on schedule. Remember too that we are not alone in bearing such burdens, and don't be discouraged by the idle talk of people that don't understand your problems. We do what we must to survive, and face another day. To endure to the end is our mission. Even if it takes a few pills to help us get by. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Something else to Ponder
members often mistakenly believe they are to forget the sins they've repented of. However, Alma, when telling his son about his conversion, tells us that it is the PAIN of the sins that are forgotten (or rather, "remembered no more"). We remember our sins, but don't experience the pain, because Christ has taken it from us. King Benjamin suggests that not only will Christ remove the pain of sin, but the pain of all suffering, if we would but let him. That isn't easy for many of us, however. We think we have to be fully responsible. As Stephen Robinson wrote, we believe in Christ, but don't "believe Christ". We believe Christ came to the world and is our Savior, but we don't believe he actually meant what he said about making our burdens light, taking our sins upon himself, and forgiving us completely. Yes, we are responsible for ourselves. We can't be as the protestants who give lip service to being saved. However, we must find the true balance between our own efforts and that which Christ does for us. It will be a different level of balance for each of us, as each is at a different place in spiritual maturity. Christ makes up the difference for each of us, depending on where we should be, and how much repentance we do, and our obedience. Instead of dwelling upon past sins, we should dwell on the kindness and mercy of a great God, who has done so much for us. We must remember that He loves us, and we are his children. I know I would do anything possible for my kids, quickly forgiving them of their mistakes. I know that Father is even more merciful than I am. Otherwise, except for Christ and a few prophets, who would make it into the Celestial Kingdom? Why such a major effort on the part of the Godhead for each of us, if only a handful return? I am thankful for Christ. I believe he pays for my sins, as I repent of them. I definitely am not perfect, but I am perfected in Him. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Something else to Ponder
Maybe the whiskey just didn't sit well on a 5 year old's gut? I know that later in life he did drink, even in the Nauvoo period. Benjamin F. Johnson tells of Joseph going to his house and having a glass of wine or tea, while discussing the gospel. Of course, the WoW wasn't a commandment as yet. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sandra: You know something I think of alot and wonder if any of y`all do is that Joseph Smith would not even drink the whiskey they tried to give him to dull the pain when they worked on his leg, do we rely on medicine instead of priesthood blessings and our Heavenly Father too much? Just wondered what your feelings are on this? Sandra Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Something else to ponder
The Church's official position is that we should use some caution with medications for mental illness. However, it has drastically backed off from some statements made by General Authorities even 20 years or less ago. Elder Packer had a speech (Be Ye Not Troubled), where he warned about the overuse of psychiatrists and medications. I haven't heard him warn about it in many years, though. Part of this may have to do with the drastic change in medical developments over the past couple decades. Older drugs used to paralyze emotions, while today's drugs are more effective in just moderating them. I have worked with several people with differing emotional issues. They definitely do not feel the Spirit while their brains are not functioning correctly. Those with depression end up crying and not knowing why they are feeling out of control-- the opposite of the peaceful feelings one should have with the Spirit. Once regulated on modern meds, they can be in control, and do in fact feel the Spirit. I look at them generally like any other medicine for other ailments. If I have a serious metabolized cancer, I may need to have morphine to control the pain. Under the morphine, I may not feel the Spirit, but it isn't an issue of sinning. If I'm suffering from emotional illness, then I also need assistance, if available, to get it under control. Hopefully the assistance will not restrict access to the Spirit, and as I mentioned, today's meds seem to do a very good job of allowing emotion to flow, just not allow it to be out of control. As for anxiety, it is a real problem for many. I have experienced anxiety attacks in the past, and they are terrible. You feel totally out of control, and as if the life was draining from you. I must say that St John's Wort is a wonderful little pill, because it helped me through the tougher times. I have never taken it full time, but whenever I felt that the anxiety was overwhelming me, I'd pop some for a few days to keep it under control. I hear that Paxil works well, also. And I will tell you that I NEVER felt the Spirit when I was having an anxiety attack. I have felt the Spirit while under the influence of St John's Wort. Fortunately, I've learned how to handle the majority of my anxieties. I use relaxation techniques whenever I feel things getting out of control. It works faster than pills, but it sure is addictive! ;-) K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: The question then remains: Can we legitimately use substances which would lower our anxiety level, especially if those substances are said to be nonaddictive? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
Paul Osborne wrote: > I'm just the opposite. When I repent and follow the gospel plan my sins > become history. Yer lucky. When I repent, my sins become part of my wife's history. ["Mom, you'll never believe what he did"] [actually, that's not true, I'm just throwing off one-liners] > Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
On Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:55:36 -0600 Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz > I want to agree with you totally, but I can relate to what Stacy is > speaking of. For while I try not to think about sin, every so > often > I trip upon it--sometimes in much the same way that someone might > step on a land mine. Having a sin that's forgiven doesn't mean > I am always able to forget it, even if I wanted to. And if I > remember something that I have done, it sometimes feels like the > sin has happened all over again even when sincere repentance has > taken place. > > Moreover, I think of passages like D&C 82:7, which states "...unto > the soul that sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord > your God." How would I reconcile this verse with the doctrine > of the Atonement? Everyone struggles with something, and > occasionally I then ask myself, will my record really be clear on > account of the things I struggle with? If I am not perfect in > something, would not the record reflect my former sins returning > with respect to my areas of imperfection? I mean, I try not to > believe that, but those are the thoughts I have to contend with, > even more often than I would like. I'm just the opposite. When I repent and follow the gospel plan my sins become history. I have full confidence in the atonement seeing Christ suffered infinite pain for me. My sins are his problem. I just hand it over and move on. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
Do your best, and Christ will make up the rest. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: > I believe Christ. I may not always believe in the efficacy of my own > repentance or that I have done enough to satisfy good repentance. > > Stacy. > > At 06:34 PM 11/19/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > >Satan apparently has done a job on you. Don't you believe Christ? He said > >that if you have repented, He has forgotten your sins. What a waste for Him > >to forget them and for you not to? Otherwise, why did He go through the > >Atonement for you (and me)? > > > >Jut a kindly and humbly administered slap to shake you out of it! > > > >Jon > > > >- Original Message - > >From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:49 AM > >Subject: RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder > > > > > > > I sometimes feel that I have too many regrets about past misdeeds to be > > > able to enter the celestial kingdom even when I have repented of them. > > > > > > Stacy. > > > > > > At 12:31 AM 11/18/2002 +, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > >Stacy Smith wrote: > > > >--- > > > >I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to > > > >feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I > > > >right? > > > >--- > > > > > > > >We can experience genuine spiritual manifestations that are a result of > > > >the power and direct influence of God. Many make misguided efforts to > > > >attain an elevated level of spiritual sensitivity by counterfeit > > > >methods. But according to the teachings of prophets and leaders of the > > > >Church, our level of spiritual communion with Heavenly Father depends > > > >upon personal righteousness, and observance of the laws of the Gospel. > > > > > > > >--- > > > >Mij Ebaboc > > > > > > > > > >/// > >/// > > > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > > >/// > >// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > > > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > >Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 > > > > > > > >/// / > >// > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > >/// / > >/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >/// /// > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/// // > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
--- From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- >> I sometimes feel that I have too many regrets about past misdeeds to be >> able to enter the celestial kingdom even when I have repented of them. --- Jon Spencer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: --- >Satan apparently has done a job on you. Don't you believe Christ? He said >that if you have repented, He has forgotten your sins. What a waste for Him >to forget them and for you not to? Otherwise, why did He go through the >Atonement for you (and me)? > >Jut a kindly and humbly administered slap to shake you out of it! I want to agree with you totally, but I can relate to what Stacy is speaking of. For while I try not to think about sin, every so often I trip upon it--sometimes in much the same way that someone might step on a land mine. Having a sin that's forgiven doesn't mean I am always able to forget it, even if I wanted to. And if I remember something that I have done, it sometimes feels like the sin has happened all over again even when sincere repentance has taken place. Moreover, I think of passages like D&C 82:7, which states "...unto the soul that sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God." How would I reconcile this verse with the doctrine of the Atonement? Everyone struggles with something, and occasionally I then ask myself, will my record really be clear on account of the things I struggle with? If I am not perfect in something, would not the record reflect my former sins returning with respect to my areas of imperfection? I mean, I try not to believe that, but those are the thoughts I have to contend with, even more often than I would like. All the best, /Sandy/ // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
Stacy Smith wrote: --- I believe Christ. I may not always believe in the efficacy of my own repentance or that I have done enough to satisfy good repentance. --- "The good news of the gospel is good news to me not because it promises that other people who are better than I am can be saved, but because it promises that I can be savedwretched, inadequate, and imperfect me. And until I accept that possibility, . . . I have not really accepted the good news of the gospel." (Stephen E. Robinson, Believing Christ: The Parable of the Bicycle and Other Good News [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1992].) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
I believe Christ. I may not always believe in the efficacy of my own repentance or that I have done enough to satisfy good repentance. Stacy. At 06:34 PM 11/19/2002 -0500, you wrote: Satan apparently has done a job on you. Don't you believe Christ? He said that if you have repented, He has forgotten your sins. What a waste for Him to forget them and for you not to? Otherwise, why did He go through the Atonement for you (and me)? Jut a kindly and humbly administered slap to shake you out of it! Jon - Original Message - From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:49 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder > I sometimes feel that I have too many regrets about past misdeeds to be > able to enter the celestial kingdom even when I have repented of them. > > Stacy. > > At 12:31 AM 11/18/2002 +, you wrote: > > > >Stacy Smith wrote: > >--- > >I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to > >feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I > >right? > >--- > > > >We can experience genuine spiritual manifestations that are a result of > >the power and direct influence of God. Many make misguided efforts to > >attain an elevated level of spiritual sensitivity by counterfeit > >methods. But according to the teachings of prophets and leaders of the > >Church, our level of spiritual communion with Heavenly Father depends > >upon personal righteousness, and observance of the laws of the Gospel. > > > >--- > >Mij Ebaboc > > > >/// /// > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/// // > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
Satan apparently has done a job on you. Don't you believe Christ? He said that if you have repented, He has forgotten your sins. What a waste for Him to forget them and for you not to? Otherwise, why did He go through the Atonement for you (and me)? Jut a kindly and humbly administered slap to shake you out of it! Jon - Original Message - From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:49 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder > I sometimes feel that I have too many regrets about past misdeeds to be > able to enter the celestial kingdom even when I have repented of them. > > Stacy. > > At 12:31 AM 11/18/2002 +, you wrote: > > > >Stacy Smith wrote: > >--- > >I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to > >feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I > >right? > >--- > > > >We can experience genuine spiritual manifestations that are a result of > >the power and direct influence of God. Many make misguided efforts to > >attain an elevated level of spiritual sensitivity by counterfeit > >methods. But according to the teachings of prophets and leaders of the > >Church, our level of spiritual communion with Heavenly Father depends > >upon personal righteousness, and observance of the laws of the Gospel. > > > >--- > >Mij Ebaboc > > > >/// /// > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/// // > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
Amen. Stewardship over the Earth means to learn how to use what's here to improve our lives, imo. Paul Osborne wrote: > >do we rely on medicine instead of > >priesthood blessings and our Heavenly Father too much? > > The Lord gave mankind the power to invent and find ways to help us with > our problems outside the bounds of prayers and blessings. Millions of > people who don't believe in prayer and blessings are reaping the benefits > of modern discovery. > > I'll take pills, blessings, and prayers. It's a pretty good combo but > sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes nothing works. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
>do we rely on medicine instead of >priesthood blessings and our Heavenly Father too much? The Lord gave mankind the power to invent and find ways to help us with our problems outside the bounds of prayers and blessings. Millions of people who don't believe in prayer and blessings are reaping the benefits of modern discovery. I'll take pills, blessings, and prayers. It's a pretty good combo but sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes nothing works. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
You know something I think of alot and wonder if any of y`all do is that Joseph Smith would not even drink the whiskey they tried to give him to dull the pain when they worked on his leg, do we rely on medicine instead of priesthood blessings and our Heavenly Father too much? Just wondered what your feelings are on this? Sandra > The question then remains: Can we legitimately use substances which would > lower our anxiety level, especially if those substances are said to be > nonaddictive? > > Stacy. > > At 05:52 PM 11/19/2002 +, you wrote: > > >-Stacy- > > > I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping > > > someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal > > > revelation. Am I right? > > > >I'm no authority on the matter, but I believe you are. As a general > >rule, it seems transparently obvious to me that altering one's brain > >chemistry can't lead to closer communion with the Spirit of God. > >Individual exceptions doubtless exist regarding those who supplement > >their natural deficiencies with attempted replacement; for example, I > >doubt epilepsy _per se_ brings people unto Christ, so Dilantin or > >something of the sort may well put those so afflicted in a literally > >better frame of mind. > > > >One of my favorite missionary companions, who became a close personal > >friend both during and after my mission, told me of his pre-mission, > >pre-Church-activity drug usage. He said that, in retrospect, a cocaine > >high reminded him of nothing so much as a deep spiritual experience -- > >except that there was no communion with the Spirit, and that true > >spirituality doesn't end with a "crash" that leaves the person suicidal. > >He believed that many drug users crave this feeling of spiritual peace > >and serenity, and that's why they become addicted. > > > >I realize you probably weren't talking about illegal drug usage, but I > >thought it a relevant insight anyway. > > > >Stephen > > > >/// /// > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/// // > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
>The question then remains: Can we legitimately use substances which would >lower our anxiety level, especially if those substances are said to be >nonaddictive? I'll take any pills my doctors give me. Tranquilizers, anti-depressants, or whatever! Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
The question then remains: Can we legitimately use substances which would lower our anxiety level, especially if those substances are said to be nonaddictive? Stacy. At 05:52 PM 11/19/2002 +, you wrote: -Stacy- > I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping > someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal > revelation. Am I right? I'm no authority on the matter, but I believe you are. As a general rule, it seems transparently obvious to me that altering one's brain chemistry can't lead to closer communion with the Spirit of God. Individual exceptions doubtless exist regarding those who supplement their natural deficiencies with attempted replacement; for example, I doubt epilepsy _per se_ brings people unto Christ, so Dilantin or something of the sort may well put those so afflicted in a literally better frame of mind. One of my favorite missionary companions, who became a close personal friend both during and after my mission, told me of his pre-mission, pre-Church-activity drug usage. He said that, in retrospect, a cocaine high reminded him of nothing so much as a deep spiritual experience -- except that there was no communion with the Spirit, and that true spirituality doesn't end with a "crash" that leaves the person suicidal. He believed that many drug users crave this feeling of spiritual peace and serenity, and that's why they become addicted. I realize you probably weren't talking about illegal drug usage, but I thought it a relevant insight anyway. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
-Stacy- > I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping > someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal > revelation. Am I right? I'm no authority on the matter, but I believe you are. As a general rule, it seems transparently obvious to me that altering one's brain chemistry can't lead to closer communion with the Spirit of God. Individual exceptions doubtless exist regarding those who supplement their natural deficiencies with attempted replacement; for example, I doubt epilepsy _per se_ brings people unto Christ, so Dilantin or something of the sort may well put those so afflicted in a literally better frame of mind. One of my favorite missionary companions, who became a close personal friend both during and after my mission, told me of his pre-mission, pre-Church-activity drug usage. He said that, in retrospect, a cocaine high reminded him of nothing so much as a deep spiritual experience -- except that there was no communion with the Spirit, and that true spirituality doesn't end with a "crash" that leaves the person suicidal. He believed that many drug users crave this feeling of spiritual peace and serenity, and that's why they become addicted. I realize you probably weren't talking about illegal drug usage, but I thought it a relevant insight anyway. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
I should clarify that I'm not referring to illegal substances but rather prescription drugs given by psychiatrists and known to not be hallucinogenic substances. Stacy. At 02:40 PM 11/17/2002 -0700, you wrote: This is an intriguing question that has interested people since antiquity. There's a very strange story about John Strugnell, an extremely controversial personality who was one of the first people to publish his translation of the DSS, namely the Copper Scroll, or Treasure Scroll. He was quite anti-Semitic, and also believed that Jesus's revelations came by eating magic mushrooms, and published a book about this, which I think is out of print now. It went over like a lead balloon. We know that many First Peoples used psychoactive drugs such as mescaline (in the peyote "button"), and further north, the plains and woodlands peoples used "sweat lodges" to induce a trance-like state which was part of their rite of passage (amongst the Blackfoot this took a very extreme form amongst youths which involved the Sundance. A young man who was ready to find his personal "totem" or "guardian angel" we would say anachronistically, would push sharp, small sticks through the skin on his chest, underneath the nipples, and dance around the sunpole until he collapsed, tearing the skin off, and forming a scar which indicated his manhood). We know that people have to be prepared for strong spiritual revelations, whilst otoh, many revelations come not only without preparation, but even un-asked for (our HP teacher gave one such example that happened to him once, where he was an ignorant messenger of an important message to a third party who was not prepared to receive the message directly). "Much prayer and fasting" is the preferred method amongst LDS, and David O. McKay and N. Eldon Tanner both taught that we should not only pray, fast and read the scriptures, but meditate on them. Sometimes a kind of token helps -- one can see the apostate forms of this amongst First Peoples practices that I've described above, and we know this was a topic of some interest to Joseph Smith. I think this is what the seer stone and the urim and thummim (and possibly the much-misunderstood Jupiter talisman) were/are: a means of helping the mind focus on one thing, and one thing alone, so that the "interface" or "buffer" is "cleared" (to use computerese) to make way for a strong message. The strongest single spiritual message I ever received, after a period of inactivity before my mission, was about whether to serve a mission or not. I was afraid I wasn't worthy, and did not want to go out into the field without a burning strong testimony. I got it, but it took me all of an afternoon and most of the night before I received it. Whenever I have doubts, or am feeling discouraged, I remember that experience (and an earlier one I had as an 8-year old when I was forced to make a choice whether to become LDS or stay Lutheran -- a story for another day). Stacy Smith wrote: > I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to feel > better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I right? > > Stacy. > > At 05:59 AM 11/17/2002 +, you wrote: > > >Quick recap and primer for all interested parties (or should I say, both > >interested parties): > > > >Xanthine (ZAN-theen) is purine with oxygens bonded in the 2 and 6 > >positions, that is, 2,6-dihydroxypurine. Ronn also referred to this as > >2,6-dioxopurine and as purine-2,6-dione, apparently following alternate > >(I would guess older) nomenclatures. Structurally, it's actually a > >fairly small, simple molecule. See > >http://www.serva.de/products/data/38420.01.shtml for details. > > > >If you take xanthine and bond methyl groups (CH3) to it, you get a > >family of substances called (unsurprisingly) methylxanthines. If you > >bond three methyls in the 1, 3, and 7 positions, you get > >1,3,7-trimethylxanthine, also called caffeine. This is the best-known of > >the methylxanthines, which share some similar physiological properties. > > > >If you bond only two methyl groups instead of three, you get a related > >but slightly different molecule. Exactly which molecule you get depends > >on where you put the methyls: > > > >If you bond the two methyls to the 3 and 7 positions, you get > >theobromine, which Ronn tells us is the primary methylxanthine found in > >chocolate. Thus, when people tell you that "chocolate doesn't contain > >any caffeine", they are technically correct, though wrong in spirit. > >Theobromine differs chemically from caffeine only by a single methyl > >group, and its stimulant properties are not dissimilar. > > > >If you bond the two methyls to the 1 and 3 positions, you get > >theophylline (1,3-dimethylxanthine), which Ronn tells us is more common > >in tea than in coffee or chocolate. It's also an asthma treatment > >because it's a bronchodilator, something Stacy apparently realizes. Ronn > >tells us that regular
RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
I sometimes feel that I have too many regrets about past misdeeds to be able to enter the celestial kingdom even when I have repented of them. Stacy. At 12:31 AM 11/18/2002 +, you wrote: Stacy Smith wrote: --- I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I right? --- We can experience genuine spiritual manifestations that are a result of the power and direct influence of God. Many make misguided efforts to attain an elevated level of spiritual sensitivity by counterfeit methods. But according to the teachings of prophets and leaders of the Church, our level of spiritual communion with Heavenly Father depends upon personal righteousness, and observance of the laws of the Gospel. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
Stacy Smith wrote: --- I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I right? --- We can experience genuine spiritual manifestations that are a result of the power and direct influence of God. Many make misguided efforts to attain an elevated level of spiritual sensitivity by counterfeit methods. But according to the teachings of prophets and leaders of the Church, our level of spiritual communion with Heavenly Father depends upon personal righteousness, and observance of the laws of the Gospel. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
This is an intriguing question that has interested people since antiquity. There's a very strange story about John Strugnell, an extremely controversial personality who was one of the first people to publish his translation of the DSS, namely the Copper Scroll, or Treasure Scroll. He was quite anti-Semitic, and also believed that Jesus's revelations came by eating magic mushrooms, and published a book about this, which I think is out of print now. It went over like a lead balloon. We know that many First Peoples used psychoactive drugs such as mescaline (in the peyote "button"), and further north, the plains and woodlands peoples used "sweat lodges" to induce a trance-like state which was part of their rite of passage (amongst the Blackfoot this took a very extreme form amongst youths which involved the Sundance. A young man who was ready to find his personal "totem" or "guardian angel" we would say anachronistically, would push sharp, small sticks through the skin on his chest, underneath the nipples, and dance around the sunpole until he collapsed, tearing the skin off, and forming a scar which indicated his manhood). We know that people have to be prepared for strong spiritual revelations, whilst otoh, many revelations come not only without preparation, but even un-asked for (our HP teacher gave one such example that happened to him once, where he was an ignorant messenger of an important message to a third party who was not prepared to receive the message directly). "Much prayer and fasting" is the preferred method amongst LDS, and David O. McKay and N. Eldon Tanner both taught that we should not only pray, fast and read the scriptures, but meditate on them. Sometimes a kind of token helps -- one can see the apostate forms of this amongst First Peoples practices that I've described above, and we know this was a topic of some interest to Joseph Smith. I think this is what the seer stone and the urim and thummim (and possibly the much-misunderstood Jupiter talisman) were/are: a means of helping the mind focus on one thing, and one thing alone, so that the "interface" or "buffer" is "cleared" (to use computerese) to make way for a strong message. The strongest single spiritual message I ever received, after a period of inactivity before my mission, was about whether to serve a mission or not. I was afraid I wasn't worthy, and did not want to go out into the field without a burning strong testimony. I got it, but it took me all of an afternoon and most of the night before I received it. Whenever I have doubts, or am feeling discouraged, I remember that experience (and an earlier one I had as an 8-year old when I was forced to make a choice whether to become LDS or stay Lutheran -- a story for another day). Stacy Smith wrote: > I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to feel > better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I right? > > Stacy. > > At 05:59 AM 11/17/2002 +, you wrote: > > >Quick recap and primer for all interested parties (or should I say, both > >interested parties): > > > >Xanthine (ZAN-theen) is purine with oxygens bonded in the 2 and 6 > >positions, that is, 2,6-dihydroxypurine. Ronn also referred to this as > >2,6-dioxopurine and as purine-2,6-dione, apparently following alternate > >(I would guess older) nomenclatures. Structurally, it's actually a > >fairly small, simple molecule. See > >http://www.serva.de/products/data/38420.01.shtml for details. > > > >If you take xanthine and bond methyl groups (CH3) to it, you get a > >family of substances called (unsurprisingly) methylxanthines. If you > >bond three methyls in the 1, 3, and 7 positions, you get > >1,3,7-trimethylxanthine, also called caffeine. This is the best-known of > >the methylxanthines, which share some similar physiological properties. > > > >If you bond only two methyl groups instead of three, you get a related > >but slightly different molecule. Exactly which molecule you get depends > >on where you put the methyls: > > > >If you bond the two methyls to the 3 and 7 positions, you get > >theobromine, which Ronn tells us is the primary methylxanthine found in > >chocolate. Thus, when people tell you that "chocolate doesn't contain > >any caffeine", they are technically correct, though wrong in spirit. > >Theobromine differs chemically from caffeine only by a single methyl > >group, and its stimulant properties are not dissimilar. > > > >If you bond the two methyls to the 1 and 3 positions, you get > >theophylline (1,3-dimethylxanthine), which Ronn tells us is more common > >in tea than in coffee or chocolate. It's also an asthma treatment > >because it's a bronchodilator, something Stacy apparently realizes. Ronn > >tells us that regular old caffeine can be used in a pinch as a > >bronchodilator, as well. > > > >If you bond the two methyls to the 1 and 7 positions, which was Ronn's > >"missing" family member, you get paraxanthine, or 1,7-dimethylxanthine. > >Unsurprisingly,
[ZION] Something Else To Ponder
I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I right? Stacy. At 05:59 AM 11/17/2002 +, you wrote: Quick recap and primer for all interested parties (or should I say, both interested parties): Xanthine (ZAN-theen) is purine with oxygens bonded in the 2 and 6 positions, that is, 2,6-dihydroxypurine. Ronn also referred to this as 2,6-dioxopurine and as purine-2,6-dione, apparently following alternate (I would guess older) nomenclatures. Structurally, it's actually a fairly small, simple molecule. See http://www.serva.de/products/data/38420.01.shtml for details. If you take xanthine and bond methyl groups (CH3) to it, you get a family of substances called (unsurprisingly) methylxanthines. If you bond three methyls in the 1, 3, and 7 positions, you get 1,3,7-trimethylxanthine, also called caffeine. This is the best-known of the methylxanthines, which share some similar physiological properties. If you bond only two methyl groups instead of three, you get a related but slightly different molecule. Exactly which molecule you get depends on where you put the methyls: If you bond the two methyls to the 3 and 7 positions, you get theobromine, which Ronn tells us is the primary methylxanthine found in chocolate. Thus, when people tell you that "chocolate doesn't contain any caffeine", they are technically correct, though wrong in spirit. Theobromine differs chemically from caffeine only by a single methyl group, and its stimulant properties are not dissimilar. If you bond the two methyls to the 1 and 3 positions, you get theophylline (1,3-dimethylxanthine), which Ronn tells us is more common in tea than in coffee or chocolate. It's also an asthma treatment because it's a bronchodilator, something Stacy apparently realizes. Ronn tells us that regular old caffeine can be used in a pinch as a bronchodilator, as well. If you bond the two methyls to the 1 and 7 positions, which was Ronn's "missing" family member, you get paraxanthine, or 1,7-dimethylxanthine. Unsurprisingly, this is a major caffeine metabolite, which is to say that this is one of the chemicals produced by your body when it breaks down caffeine. It's also identified as an adenosine receptor ligand, which means it ties itself to certain receptor sites. By the way, that's typically how psychoactive drugs work -- they attach themselves to various receptor sites. Does this mean that paraxanthine is a psychoactive drug? I don't know; maybe. Perhaps other xanthines or methylxanthines act as adenosine receptor ligands. Maybe that's ultimately how caffeine produces its effects on the brain. In any case, now you have some idea about caffeine (found in coffee) and three closely related chemicals, theobromine (found in chocolate), theophylline (found in tea), and paraxanthine (found in Starbucks customers). Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
