Tex,
Locale is a weak concept. However, it is a "stronger" concept than
"language", which is how David was referring to pages and page
contents. The "language" of a page doesn't fully capture the *other*
formatting issues that his software will need to be aware of in order to
fully internationali
Addison,
I think locale is a weak concept to begin with, but
I can accept that it is good enough for initializing a set of
properties to approximately what a user might want.
Once those settings are made, unless the user wants to make
a gross change in all of the settings, I let him change
the i
I think I see what Tex is saying. He's saying that the DATA locale may
affect display of some page elements. For example the table containing
result sets might be laid out RTL if the result set is RTL. This implies
to me, however, that the result set has an intrinsic locale, as opposed
to just spe
Michael Everson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]wrote:
> No, Urdu written in Nagari script is Hindi.
Maybe Hindustani?
> Since you have the technology to flip the page direction, it is easy to
make a button override. And as
> there are examples where the user's locale is wrong for establishing the
page direction, it seems silly to me > to ask the user to change his locale
Tex,
I appreciate what you are saying. I
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, John Cowan wrote:
> It's also the case that the *name* Urdu ("camp language") is much
> older.
You're right. But to be exact, Urdu only means camp.
David Tooke wrote:
> ...And in response to Tex.
> >I would spend less time debating which is correct, and simply offer
> >a button on the UI to flip the ordering of the page.
> Although we cannot have a option to store preferences for particular users,
> we will allow users to change the locale
John,
I wasn't thinking about a,b,c so much as the headings in the results
table and the ordering of the data in the fields: country, state, name
Where I have seen Hebrew or Arabic tables the heading order
changes from LTR to RTL, and so you would want the data
returned from the query to be in t
vid Tooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: OT (Kind of): Determining whether Locales are left-to-right or
> David Tooke wrote:
>
> > I don't think it should be based of the application. A Hebrew docume
Hi John,
I think we're saying the same thing: the language of the page is the base
directionality. If the application is localized into Hebrew, then the base
directionality is RTL.
Addison
===
Addison P. PhillipsPrincip
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> I think we're saying the same thing: the language of the page is the base
> directionality. If the application is localized into Hebrew, then the base
> directionality is RTL.
Okay, good. In that case by "user locale" you mean "language of the (fixed
par
David Tooke wrote:
> I don't think it should be based of the application. A Hebrew document
> written by a user on an untranslated word processor is *still* a Hebrew
> document.
I assume you mean "a word processor localized in English" rather than
"a word processor that can't do bidi". If the
ist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: OT (Kind of): Determining whether Locales are left-to-right or
> This message is best viewed with a monowidth font.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > For example, I might look at a page
Tex Texin wrote:
> For example, the case that you are suggesting goes off the rails,
> is exactly what the user would want if he were going to
> query the list of just Arabic and Israeli records and then copy and
> paste them into perhaps a spreadsheet.
Is it? I've never seen a RTL localized sp
I think you really need to give the user the option to override
the assumptions being made, as the degree of familiarity and experience
the user has with Hebrew and Arabic, and the purpose for using
the application will make a big difference.
For example, the case that you are suggesting goes off
On 12/06/2000 12:19:00 PM "Michael \(michka\) Kaplan" wrote:
>Aramaic has no native speakers
True, if what is meant is Ancient Aramaic. False if we mean Assyrian or
Chaldean Neo-Aramaic.
- Peter
---
Peter Constable
No
This message is best viewed with a monowidth font.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> For example, I might look at a page that contains an very large result set
> from a database query, presented as a table. The results would comprise
> 90% of the text, let's say, of the document. If the results are all
can just leave the directionality of
> the page to always be LTR...it's, obviously, less work! :-)
>
>
> David Tooke
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "David Tooke" <
> Actually, I think that the directionality of the page *CONSIDERED AS A
> WHOLE* is directly related to the locale of the user.
Thank you Addison. You are actually saying what I thought...the
directionality of the page should be governed by the user's preference
(based on the locale from the bro
ly, less work! :-)
David Tooke
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "David Tooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Unicode List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 2:54 AM
Subject: Re: OT (Kind of): Determ
Hi David,
I sense a subtle (and not uncommon) disconnect in your last response.
The application isn't "english", it's "an application". Properly done, it
should be internationalized and thus able to be an "Arabic
application" when serving Arabic pages and English when serving English
pages. You
Michael Everson wrote:
> Um, my understanding is that the "Hindustani" language (so called
> "Hindoostani" by the British way back when) is really fairly uniform, apart
> from the alphabet it is written (Arabic by Muslims, Nagari by Hindus, to
> use the sectarian taxonomy), and the fact that for
Ar 01:47 -0800 2000-12-07, scríobh Antoine Leca:
>> >Urdu written in Nagari script is left-to-right? This is new to me...
>>
>> No, Urdu written in Nagari script is Hindi.
>
>There are a number of Muslim people that insist on naming it Urdu rather
>than Hindi. Since both codes exist, and hence if
Michael Kaplan wrote:
>
> > plus...
> > dumb question 1. Is Aramaic (which doesn't seem to have a 2 character
ISO
> > code) the same as Amharic (which does...AM)? If not, Amharic appears
to
> be
> > a Semetic language too, is that written right-to-left too?
>
> Amharic uses the Ethiopic script
Michael Everson wrote:
>
> Ar 09:45 -0800 2000-12-06, scríobh Antoine Leca:
>
> >Urdu written in Nagari script is left-to-right? This is new to me...
>
> No, Urdu written in Nagari script is Hindi.
There are a number of Muslim people that insist on naming it Urdu rather
than Hindi. Since both
...everybody see's it in LTR. But I thought trying to figure it out from
the browser might be more user friendly.
- Original Message -
From: "John Cowan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "David Tooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wed
David Tooke wrote:
> The application is a database application where the majority of fields are
> from a Unicode database and user-entered. Their text is likely to be in
> Arabic. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, the *content* of the page is
> in Arabic not English despite it being an Engli
> I think it would be very weird to render an English-language application
with
> labels on the right of their fields, just because the user also
understands
> Arabic.
The application is a database application where the majority of fields are
from a Unicode database and user-entered. Their text
David Tooke wrote:
> I am assuming that the browser (and/or operating system)
> is going to render the actual text in the correct visual order as defined by
> the Unicode Bidi Algorithm.
> However I still need to indicate whether the page itself should be oriented
> in right-to-left format (i.e.
On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, David Tooke wrote:
> dumb question 2. Are there an known cases where the full locale name
> (language+country+variant) has a different directionality as for the root
> language? I know that some languages are written in different scripts
> based on the locale; are there an
aining preferences for each
user is not possible so I am trying to make a best guess at it.
- Original Message -
From: "John Cowan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Unicode List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: OT (Kind
Ar 10:54 -0800 2000-12-06, scríobh David Tooke:
>But according to RFC-1766 that governs the language tags in HTML and in
>HTTP, only two character ISO 639 language codes, 'i' tags registered with
>the IANA and 'x' private tags are valid.
This is being revised to include the 639-2 codes.
>There s
From: "David Tooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Is it true that one would not be able set their browser locales to
these
> > > languages as it appears ISO 639 is a pre-requisite for this?
> >
> > I do not think that is universally true, no.
> >
> But according to RFC-1766 that governs the language
PROTECTED]>; "Unicode List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: OT (Kind of): Determining whether Locales are left-to-right or
right-to-left.
> From: "David Tooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > I noticed from tha
David Tooke wrote:
> dumb question 1. Is Aramaic (which doesn't seem to have a 2 character ISO
> code) the same as Amharic (which does...AM)?
No.
> If not, Amharic appears to be
> a Semetic language too, is that written right-to-left too?
No, Amharic is written with Ethiopic script, which is
"Michael (michka) Kaplan" wrote:
> Well, there are some languages in the former Soviet Union that are
> considering an Arabic script either instead of or in addition to existing
> Latin/Cyrillic scripts. Not sure if any have been officially adopted?
I missed this bit before.
Mongolian (not a la
From: "David Tooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I noticed from that list that there are quite a few languages that do not
> have 2 character ISO 639 codes.
>
> Balti Baluchi Berber Hausa Karaite Kurmanji Luri Mazanderani
> Moplah
> PulaarSiraiki (also known as Saraiki or Lahnda or Western
Ar 09:45 -0800 2000-12-06, scríobh Antoine Leca:
>Urdu written in Nagari script is left-to-right? This is new to me...
No, Urdu written in Nagari script is Hindi.
Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Irelan
List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: OT (Kind of): Determining whether Locales are left-to-right or
right-to-left.
> Well, there are lots of other Arabic script locales. Here is from a
message
> from Elaine Keown just the other day
On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Michael (michka) Kaplan wrote:
> Well, there are lots of other Arabic script locales. Here is from a message
> from Elaine Keown just the other day:
>
> Arabic Balti Baluchi Berber Farsi Hausa Karaite Kashmiri Kazakh
> Kirghiz Kurmanji Luri Mazanderani Moplah P
Michael Kaplan wrote:
>
> Well, there are lots of other Arabic script locales. Here is from a message
> from Elaine Keown just the other day:
>
> Arabic Balti Baluchi Berber Farsi Hausa Karaite Kashmiri Kazakh
> Kirghiz Kurmanji Luri Mazanderani Moplah Panjabi---PakistaniPashto
On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, David Tooke wrote:
> At the moment it looks like I have to maintain a table of right to left
> locales myself. If that is the way to go, apart from the Arabic (ar);
> Hebrew (he); Urdu (ur) which other locales is it appropriate to set the
> directionality to right-to-left?
ROTECTED]>
To: "Unicode List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 8:48 AM
Subject: OT (Kind of): Determining whether Locales are left-to-right or
right-to-left.
Is there a general mechanism for determining the directionality of a locale?
I am using Java Servlets
Is there a general mechanism for determining the
directionality of a locale?
I am using Java Servlets to create HTML
pages. Is there something that will tell me when it is appropriate
to generate the HTML in right to left as opposed to left to right?
At the moment it looks like I hav
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