Re: (313): DEMF Friday airport pickup/cab share?
In my memory the taxi cab ride wasn’t that expensive. So i have the same request as Frank, if some of you have his flight arriving around 4:30PM, i would be pleased to share a cab with you. I’m going to the Shorecrest too. — Julien. Le 25/05/2010 04:07, kent williams a écrit : Julien, if you post to the 313 e-mail list your arrival time, you might find someone getting in roughly at the same time and maybe get a ride into the city. Save you a $40 cab ride. Le 25/05/2010 03:12, Frank Glazer a écrit : thanks to everybody who replied, ride has been secured. see you all the festival! Le 24/05/2010 23:50, Frank Glazer a écrit : So my flight to Detroit gets in on friday at 11:30-noonish. Unfortunately the rest of my crew won't be in town until 2 or 3. I am trying to find somebody with a similar or slightly later flight who wants to share a cab to downtown Detroit. Alternately, looking for somebody w a car to pick me up at the airport. Staying at the shorecrest but getting me close or even to Detroit threads or melodies and memories would work too. Sent from my iPhone
(313) Google Books' SPIN magazine archives: Detroit Techno, Chicago House, LA Rave history
Josh (yussel) found these, I'm just passing 'em along: http://books.google.com/books?id=FD4jKFVQOhMClrrview=1pg=PA104#v=twopageqf=false Also: SPIN 1996 article on Chicago House: http://books.google.com/books?id=mtS7BN0wZhECpg=PA60lr=rview=1cd=1#v=twopageqf=false Last but not least, a piece similar to that recent RA post about the DEMF, a verbal history of the LA Rave scene up until 2001: http://books.google.com/books?id=XBJLecfe-rcCpg=PA90lrrview=1cd=19#v=twopageqf=false - Greg
RE: (313) was DEMF prediction, now Oni Ayunn
I also take exception to music being described as soul-less. What does that even mean? I find it quite emotional if that's what's meant Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Greg Earle [mailto:ea...@isolar.dyndns.org] Sent: 24 May 2010 20:35 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) DEMF prediction On May 24, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Frank Glazer cpe1704...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with you Ken to an extent, but like you said, nobody claimed that it was good, just that it could be big at DEMF this year. Honestly, though, even though i know it's simplistic soulless crap, I actually enjoy it quite a bit despite myself. On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Odeluga, Ken ken.odel...@dowjones.com wrote: I bought an online copy of that track. I don't know what the fuss is all about. To me it seems just like an old fashioned, run-of-the-mill [and off the conveyor belt] 'minimal' thing. It's got interesting effects but the sounds are flat, cold and tinny, and the whole thing is s quite soul-less and meaningless, even in our world of dance music, in which the 'meaning' of music is opaque [at best]. If no one else will claim it's good I will! It's a perfect summation of The Knife gone Techno, I think it's absolutely beautiful and where you could get run-of-the-mill 'minimal' out of it Ken, I don't know ... did you forget to listen to side B? ;) OAR003-B reminds me of a warm sunny day, you know, kinda like what you've had in London today :) - Greg # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@channel4.co.uk Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 #
RE: (313) was DEMF prediction, now Oni Ayunn
Well *I* find it soul-less. That statement has meaning to me. Wanna fight? Ken -Original Message- From: Robert Taylor [mailto:rdtay...@channel4.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:20 AM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) was DEMF prediction, now Oni Ayunn I also take exception to music being described as soul-less. What does that even mean? I find it quite emotional if that's what's meant Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Greg Earle [mailto:ea...@isolar.dyndns.org] Sent: 24 May 2010 20:35 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) DEMF prediction On May 24, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Frank Glazer cpe1704...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with you Ken to an extent, but like you said, nobody claimed that it was good, just that it could be big at DEMF this year. Honestly, though, even though i know it's simplistic soulless crap, I actually enjoy it quite a bit despite myself. On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Odeluga, Ken ken.odel...@dowjones.com wrote: I bought an online copy of that track. I don't know what the fuss is all about. To me it seems just like an old fashioned, run-of-the-mill [and off the conveyor belt] 'minimal' thing. It's got interesting effects but the sounds are flat, cold and tinny, and the whole thing is s quite soul-less and meaningless, even in our world of dance music, in which the 'meaning' of music is opaque [at best]. If no one else will claim it's good I will! It's a perfect summation of The Knife gone Techno, I think it's absolutely beautiful and where you could get run-of-the-mill 'minimal' out of it Ken, I don't know ... did you forget to listen to side B? ;) OAR003-B reminds me of a warm sunny day, you know, kinda like what you've had in London today :) - Greg # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@channel4.co.uk Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 #
RE: (313) DEMF prediction
Yeah actually I don't mind side B, although I'm not absolutely mad about it. It's quirkier. And I feel it might grow one me. I feel I already have absorbed all the juice out of side A and I've only heard it about 3 times. I tend to think that the headline track is the A side though, so that's what I was levelling my ire at. Do *you* wanna fight Greg? ;-) Ken -Original Message- From: Greg Earle [mailto:ea...@isolar.dyndns.org] Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 8:35 PM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) DEMF prediction On May 24, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Frank Glazer cpe1704...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with you Ken to an extent, but like you said, nobody claimed that it was good, just that it could be big at DEMF this year. Honestly, though, even though i know it's simplistic soulless crap, I actually enjoy it quite a bit despite myself. On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Odeluga, Ken ken.odel...@dowjones.com wrote: I bought an online copy of that track. I don't know what the fuss is all about. To me it seems just like an old fashioned, run-of-the-mill [and off the conveyor belt] 'minimal' thing. It's got interesting effects but the sounds are flat, cold and tinny, and the whole thing is s quite soul-less and meaningless, even in our world of dance music, in which the 'meaning' of music is opaque [at best]. If no one else will claim it's good I will! It's a perfect summation of The Knife gone Techno, I think it's absolutely beautiful and where you could get run-of-the-mill 'minimal' out of it Ken, I don't know ... did you forget to listen to side B? ;) OAR003-B reminds me of a warm sunny day, you know, kinda like what you've had in London today :) - Greg
Re: (313) DEMF prediction
My guess is yesterday's warm sunny day turned into a hot muggy overcast day in London? :) robin... On 25 May 2010, at 11:35, Odeluga, Ken wrote: Do *you* wanna fight Greg? ;-) Ken -Original Message- From: Greg Earle [mailto:ea...@isolar.dyndns.org] Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 8:35 PM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) DEMF prediction OAR003-B reminds me of a warm sunny day, you know, kinda like what you've had in London today :) - Greg
RE: (313) was DEMF prediction, now Oni Ayunn
Can you please explain then? Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Odeluga, Ken [mailto:ken.odel...@dowjones.com] Sent: 25 May 2010 11:30 To: Robert Taylor; 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) was DEMF prediction, now Oni Ayunn Well *I* find it soul-less. That statement has meaning to me. Wanna fight? Ken -Original Message- From: Robert Taylor [mailto:rdtay...@channel4.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:20 AM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) was DEMF prediction, now Oni Ayunn I also take exception to music being described as soul-less. What does that even mean? I find it quite emotional if that's what's meant Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Greg Earle [mailto:ea...@isolar.dyndns.org] Sent: 24 May 2010 20:35 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) DEMF prediction On May 24, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Frank Glazer cpe1704...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with you Ken to an extent, but like you said, nobody claimed that it was good, just that it could be big at DEMF this year. Honestly, though, even though i know it's simplistic soulless crap, I actually enjoy it quite a bit despite myself. On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Odeluga, Ken ken.odel...@dowjones.com wrote: I bought an online copy of that track. I don't know what the fuss is all about. To me it seems just like an old fashioned, run-of-the-mill [and off the conveyor belt] 'minimal' thing. It's got interesting effects but the sounds are flat, cold and tinny, and the whole thing is s quite soul-less and meaningless, even in our world of dance music, in which the 'meaning' of music is opaque [at best]. If no one else will claim it's good I will! It's a perfect summation of The Knife gone Techno, I think it's absolutely beautiful and where you could get run-of-the-mill 'minimal' out of it Ken, I don't know ... did you forget to listen to side B? ;) OAR003-B reminds me of a warm sunny day, you know, kinda like what you've had in London today :) - Greg # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@channel4.co.uk Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 # # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@channel4.co.uk Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 #
RE: (313) was DEMF prediction, now Oni Ayunn
Have you read the subsequent posts mate? A lot of people - including me - think the B side is the part that 'makes' the EP, and don't care much for the A track. Dunno if that's what *you* mean. But that qualifies things somewhat. As for the A side, I just don't hear 'emotion' or 'soul' there at all. I hear digital, tinny and rather silly sounds [in fact]. OK, there's no harm in being light-hearted. But then it's a bit of a stretch to expect such superficiality of tone to be in any shape or form transporting. The track does nowt for me. Musical perception is subjective - that goes without saying. I am surprised you like it so much though. [If indeed you are meaning side A and not side B]. kEN -Original Message- From: Robert Taylor [mailto:rdtay...@channel4.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 1:27 PM To: Odeluga, Ken; 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) was DEMF prediction, now Oni Ayunn Can you please explain then? Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Odeluga, Ken [mailto:ken.odel...@dowjones.com] Sent: 25 May 2010 11:30 To: Robert Taylor; 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) was DEMF prediction, now Oni Ayunn Well *I* find it soul-less. That statement has meaning to me. Wanna fight? Ken -Original Message- From: Robert Taylor [mailto:rdtay...@channel4.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:20 AM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) was DEMF prediction, now Oni Ayunn I also take exception to music being described as soul-less. What does that even mean? I find it quite emotional if that's what's meant Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Greg Earle [mailto:ea...@isolar.dyndns.org] Sent: 24 May 2010 20:35 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) DEMF prediction On May 24, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Frank Glazer cpe1704...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with you Ken to an extent, but like you said, nobody claimed that it was good, just that it could be big at DEMF this year. Honestly, though, even though i know it's simplistic soulless crap, I actually enjoy it quite a bit despite myself. On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Odeluga, Ken ken.odel...@dowjones.com wrote: I bought an online copy of that track. I don't know what the fuss is all about. To me it seems just like an old fashioned, run-of-the-mill [and off the conveyor belt] 'minimal' thing. It's got interesting effects but the sounds are flat, cold and tinny, and the whole thing is s quite soul-less and meaningless, even in our world of dance music, in which the 'meaning' of music is opaque [at best]. If no one else will claim it's good I will! It's a perfect summation of The Knife gone Techno, I think it's absolutely beautiful and where you could get run-of-the-mill 'minimal' out of it Ken, I don't know ... did you forget to listen to side B? ;) OAR003-B reminds me of a warm sunny day, you know, kinda like what you've had in London today :) - Greg # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@channel4.co.uk Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 # # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@channel4.co.uk Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 #
RE: (313) was DEMF prediction, now Oni Ayunn
My apologies. The B side is THE tune that's causing the buzz. It should be the A side. I've only heard the other tune once but can't recall being blown away by it. Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Odeluga, Ken [mailto:ken.odel...@dowjones.com] Sent: 25 May 2010 13:33 To: Robert Taylor; 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) was DEMF prediction, now Oni Ayunn Have you read the subsequent posts mate? A lot of people - including me - think the B side is the part that 'makes' the EP, and don't care much for the A track. Dunno if that's what *you* mean. But that qualifies things somewhat. As for the A side, I just don't hear 'emotion' or 'soul' there at all. I hear digital, tinny and rather silly sounds [in fact]. OK, there's no harm in being light-hearted. But then it's a bit of a stretch to expect such superficiality of tone to be in any shape or form transporting. The track does nowt for me. Musical perception is subjective - that goes without saying. I am surprised you like it so much though. [If indeed you are meaning side A and not side B]. kEN -Original Message- From: Robert Taylor [mailto:rdtay...@channel4.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 1:27 PM To: Odeluga, Ken; 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) was DEMF prediction, now Oni Ayunn Can you please explain then? Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Odeluga, Ken [mailto:ken.odel...@dowjones.com] Sent: 25 May 2010 11:30 To: Robert Taylor; 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) was DEMF prediction, now Oni Ayunn Well *I* find it soul-less. That statement has meaning to me. Wanna fight? Ken -Original Message- From: Robert Taylor [mailto:rdtay...@channel4.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:20 AM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) was DEMF prediction, now Oni Ayunn I also take exception to music being described as soul-less. What does that even mean? I find it quite emotional if that's what's meant Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Greg Earle [mailto:ea...@isolar.dyndns.org] Sent: 24 May 2010 20:35 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) DEMF prediction On May 24, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Frank Glazer cpe1704...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with you Ken to an extent, but like you said, nobody claimed that it was good, just that it could be big at DEMF this year. Honestly, though, even though i know it's simplistic soulless crap, I actually enjoy it quite a bit despite myself. On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Odeluga, Ken ken.odel...@dowjones.com wrote: I bought an online copy of that track. I don't know what the fuss is all about. To me it seems just like an old fashioned, run-of-the-mill [and off the conveyor belt] 'minimal' thing. It's got interesting effects but the sounds are flat, cold and tinny, and the whole thing is s quite soul-less and meaningless, even in our world of dance music, in which the 'meaning' of music is opaque [at best]. If no one else will claim it's good I will! It's a perfect summation of The Knife gone Techno, I think it's absolutely beautiful and where you could get run-of-the-mill 'minimal' out of it Ken, I don't know ... did you forget to listen to side B? ;) OAR003-B reminds me of a warm sunny day, you know, kinda like what you've had in London today :) - Greg # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@channel4.co.uk Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 # # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@channel4.co.uk Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No.
Re: (313) Google Books' SPIN magazine archives: Detroit Techno, Chicago House, LA Rave history
I think it is an article from 86, but it didn't quite load correctly on my phone. There was an article in SPIN on Detroit Techno back in the 90s as well, I think Courtney Love was on the cover. --Original Message-- From: Greg Earle To: 313@hyperreal.org ReplyTo: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: (313) Google Books' SPIN magazine archives: Detroit Techno, Chicago House, LA Rave history Sent: May 25, 2010 12:23 AM Josh (yussel) found these, I'm just passing 'em along: http://books.google.com/books?id=FD4jKFVQOhMClrrview=1pg=PA104#v=twopageqf=false Also: SPIN 1996 article on Chicago House: http://books.google.com/books?id=mtS7BN0wZhECpg=PA60lr=rview=1cd=1#v=twopageqf=false Last but not least, a piece similar to that recent RA post about the DEMF, a verbal history of the LA Rave scene up until 2001: http://books.google.com/books?id=XBJLecfe-rcCpg=PA90lrrview=1cd=19#v=twopageqf=false - Greg Sent via BlackBerry by ATT
(313) The Black Dog - New Ambient Mix - Alien Symmetry
http://www.bodytonicmusic.com/podcasts/2010/may/25/bodytonic-podcast-081-black-dog/ • Brian Eno - An Ending (Ascent) - Polydor • Bitstream - Retreat Pod - Pylon Music • The Black Dog - BCN 4 - Dust Science • Coil - Box Theme - Solar Lodge • Pan Sonic - Suhteellinen - Blast First • Alex Smoke - Intro - Soma • Gas - Untitled - Kompakt • Fever Ray - If I Had A Heart - Rabid Records • Dave - Wire - Downwards • Monolake - Credit - Monolake / Imbalance Computer Music • FUSE - Carocell - Plus 8 • Plastikman - Lost - NovaMute, M_nus • Craig Armstrong - Delay - Sanctuary Records • Loscil - Cloister - Kranky • MLO - Sleeper - Reflective • The Black Dog - Delay 9 - Soma • Jacaszek - Powoli - Miasmah • BMB - All The Saints Have Been Hung - Counterbalance • Autechre - Eutow (The Black Dog's Arvo Alg Edit) - Warp • Jarvis Cocker - Lanhydrock - Old Music Box - National Trust Enjoy m
Re: (313) Google Books' SPIN magazine archives: Detroit Techno, Chicago House, LA Rave history
That SPIN one is from '86. There are some interesting Billboard ones from that period too: http://books.google.com/books?id=gyQEMBAJlpg=PA27ots=AHdboGpjnNdq=Chip%20E.%20-%20If%20You%20Only%20Knew%20billboardpg=PA27#v=onepageqf=false J Greg Earle wrote: Josh (yussel) found these, I'm just passing 'em along: http://books.google.com/books?id=FD4jKFVQOhMClrrview=1pg=PA104#v=twopageqf=false Also: SPIN 1996 article on Chicago House: http://books.google.com/books?id=mtS7BN0wZhECpg=PA60lr=rview=1cd=1#v=twopageqf=false Last but not least, a piece similar to that recent RA post about the DEMF, a verbal history of the LA Rave scene up until 2001: http://books.google.com/books?id=XBJLecfe-rcCpg=PA90lrrview=1cd=19#v=twopageqf=false - Greg
Re: (313) Oni Ayhun OAR003
Just heard of this artist recently through a DJ mix from Surgeon. I'm partial to the B side; diggin' the bassline and the way it slowly unfolds. Andrew On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 5:27 PM, kent williams chaircrus...@gmail.com wrote: Since people are debating this record, and not everyone's heard it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpUdR4HZ6Bw Oar003-A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3grTvaQ8pAM Oar003-B A side sound like the guy has been listening to Carl Craig (or maybe Sierra Romeo or East Island -- it has a very Eevolute sound to it). B side starts out like a dubbed out version of the A side, I'd be more likely to play this. It's pretty much irresistable -- like the man knows his UR catalog well -- stonking beat and nice melodic material that builds over time. -- http://soundcloud.com/andrewdukecognitionaudio http://myspace.com/andrewduke
(313) Test
Please ignore, trying to see if any of my posts have gone through, etc. てすと
(313) new autechre track, acid? 4 on the floor beat?
This is some mutant sad broken robot techno! http://autechre.ws/move-of-ten/
Re: (313) new autechre track, acid? 4 on the floor beat?
I can't wait to see them live tomorrow night, I'm expecting good things. On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 10:59 AM, kent williams chaircrus...@gmail.com wrote: This is some mutant sad broken robot techno! http://autechre.ws/move-of-ten/
