Re: [9fans] Is 9Fans dead or alive

[Winston Kodogo]

Well, the meaning of the word "ilk" has always puzzled me. As in "Sir
Robert Pike of that Ilk". But then I'm not Scottish. Or Scotch, whichever
is correct. Me, I still lend a fraction of an ear to this group in the
increasingly vain hope of learning something.

Personally, I don't use Plan9, or even p9p, to get stuff done. I just like
to look at the code from time to time. I'm with Carmack on Plan9 circa
1997: " It has an achingly elegant internal structure, but a user interface
that has been asleep for the past decade." Add a couple of decades to that.

Also, don't be mean to Skip!

On 1 September 2016 at 09:36, stanley lieber  wrote:

> Skip Tavakkolian  wrote:
>
> >On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 11:43 AM stanley lieber  wrote:
> >
> >> Steven Stallion  wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Kurt H Maier 
> >wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 10:52:31PM -0700, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> >> >>> > plan 9 as more than a masturbatory aid.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> put up or shut up:
> >> >> ...
> >> >> Congratulations on your accomplishments!
> >> >
> >> >% fn ck { grep $* /n/sources/patch/*/email
> >/n/sources/patch/^(applied
> >> >maybe saved sorry)^/*/email >[2]/dev/null |wc -l}
> >> >% ck sstall...@gmail.com
> >> > 28
> >> >% ck k...@sciops.net
> >> >  0
> >> >
> >> >Perhaps it's better to be known for the occasional masturbatory
> >> >session than for being an incorrigible troll.
> >> >
> >> >Steve
> >>
> >> What's incorrigible is the way you people consistently reply to
> >questions
> >> from newbs with claims that it is trivial to do various tasks on Plan
> >9
> >> without ever quite revealing that 1.) it isn't, and 2.) you aren't
> >really
> >> referring to the task they suggested, anyway. Skip does this, Every.
> >> Single. Time. What is the point?
> >>
> >
> >you're assuming a person who is new to Plan 9, is new to computing,
> >system
> >admin or programming.
> >
> >easy means: "no different than setting up a cpu once you've configured
> >your
> >fs and auth".  adding entries for 8 rpi's in /lib/ndb/local and
> >/cfg/pxe is
> >as easy as cutting and pasting after the first one. they all run the
> >same
> >kernel.
> >
> >please take the hyperbole down a bit or provide instances for what you
> >claim i did. the internet has a long memory; http links would be
> >sufficient.
> >
> >regarding pi cluster, it was related to a work-in-progress i talked
> >about
> >at IWP9 2010.  i've shared as much detail as i could.
> >
> >
> >> What do you use that rpi "cluster" for, Skip? Do you mean to imply
> >some
> >> the availability of some facility for process migration? You know
> >none
> >> exists.
> >>
> >> The latest amusing evolution is a parade of replies from the usual
> >> suspects where it's never quite clear which of them are promoting or
> >> denigrating the degraded web-centric nature of modern computing.
> >First
> >> various ribbons and medals associated with historic Plan 9 campaigns
> >are
> >> displayed and then the same noble campaigners suggest that Plan 9
> >users are
> >> cave men clinging to stone tools. I think the quips are so clever
> >precisely
> >> because their target is indeterminate. Great, you're funny, but
> >again, what
> >> is the point?
> >>
> >> How does any of this clarify matters for interested newbs?
> >>
> >> My personal favorite aspect of this tiresome dance is the eventual
> >> denunciation of trolls. Here, in the spiritual home of Mark V Shaney!
> >>
> >> The problem is not trolling. The problem is low to medium quality
> >> trolling, performed by armchair quarterbacks who want credit for
> >being Plan
> >> 9 Gandalfs but who are unwilling to provide the simple service of
> >speaking
> >> in words that make sense. Mothra forbid any should cast aspersions
> >upon the
> >> sacred world wide web,
> >> bringer of the paycheck and dresser of the tongue.
> >>
> >
> >and yet, it is you and your ilk who claim the mantle of the true
> >keepers of
> >the faith, beating back the evildoers.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Kurt provides free hosting for the 9front mercurial repository, after
> >> Google found better things to do with their time. Thanks, Kurt.
> >>
> >> sl
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
> "your ilk"
>
> What does that mean, exactly, Skip?
>
> http://fqa.9front.org
>
> What I say is that Plan 9 runs on my computer and I use it to do the
> things I use computers for. Documentation of the hows and whys can be found
> at the URL above. 9fans manage to consistently make fun of this idea while
> somehow simultaneously retaining an incredibly easily offended sense of
> ownership over anything mentioned on 9fans since 1993. Which is the real
> you? And why do quips become verboten only after you've contributed the
> quips you wanted to contribute?
>
> It's not so much keeping the flame as it is simply wanting to run the
> software to actually do things, and realizing that 

Re: [9fans] Is 9Fans dead or alive

[stanley lieber]

Skip Tavakkolian  wrote:

>On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 11:43 AM stanley lieber  wrote:
>
>> Steven Stallion  wrote:
>>
>> >On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Kurt H Maier 
>wrote:
>> >> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 10:52:31PM -0700, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
>> >>> > plan 9 as more than a masturbatory aid.
>> >>>
>> >>> put up or shut up:
>> >> ...
>> >> Congratulations on your accomplishments!
>> >
>> >% fn ck { grep $* /n/sources/patch/*/email
>/n/sources/patch/^(applied
>> >maybe saved sorry)^/*/email >[2]/dev/null |wc -l}
>> >% ck sstall...@gmail.com
>> > 28
>> >% ck k...@sciops.net
>> >  0
>> >
>> >Perhaps it's better to be known for the occasional masturbatory
>> >session than for being an incorrigible troll.
>> >
>> >Steve
>>
>> What's incorrigible is the way you people consistently reply to
>questions
>> from newbs with claims that it is trivial to do various tasks on Plan
>9
>> without ever quite revealing that 1.) it isn't, and 2.) you aren't
>really
>> referring to the task they suggested, anyway. Skip does this, Every.
>> Single. Time. What is the point?
>>
>
>you're assuming a person who is new to Plan 9, is new to computing,
>system
>admin or programming.
>
>easy means: "no different than setting up a cpu once you've configured
>your
>fs and auth".  adding entries for 8 rpi's in /lib/ndb/local and
>/cfg/pxe is
>as easy as cutting and pasting after the first one. they all run the
>same
>kernel.
>
>please take the hyperbole down a bit or provide instances for what you
>claim i did. the internet has a long memory; http links would be
>sufficient.
>
>regarding pi cluster, it was related to a work-in-progress i talked
>about
>at IWP9 2010.  i've shared as much detail as i could.
>
>
>> What do you use that rpi "cluster" for, Skip? Do you mean to imply
>some
>> the availability of some facility for process migration? You know
>none
>> exists.
>>
>> The latest amusing evolution is a parade of replies from the usual
>> suspects where it's never quite clear which of them are promoting or
>> denigrating the degraded web-centric nature of modern computing.
>First
>> various ribbons and medals associated with historic Plan 9 campaigns
>are
>> displayed and then the same noble campaigners suggest that Plan 9
>users are
>> cave men clinging to stone tools. I think the quips are so clever
>precisely
>> because their target is indeterminate. Great, you're funny, but
>again, what
>> is the point?
>>
>> How does any of this clarify matters for interested newbs?
>>
>> My personal favorite aspect of this tiresome dance is the eventual
>> denunciation of trolls. Here, in the spiritual home of Mark V Shaney!
>>
>> The problem is not trolling. The problem is low to medium quality
>> trolling, performed by armchair quarterbacks who want credit for
>being Plan
>> 9 Gandalfs but who are unwilling to provide the simple service of
>speaking
>> in words that make sense. Mothra forbid any should cast aspersions
>upon the
>> sacred world wide web,
>> bringer of the paycheck and dresser of the tongue.
>>
>
>and yet, it is you and your ilk who claim the mantle of the true
>keepers of
>the faith, beating back the evildoers.
>
>
>>
>> Kurt provides free hosting for the 9front mercurial repository, after
>> Google found better things to do with their time. Thanks, Kurt.
>>
>> sl
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

"your ilk"

What does that mean, exactly, Skip?

http://fqa.9front.org

What I say is that Plan 9 runs on my computer and I use it to do the things I 
use computers for. Documentation of the hows and whys can be found at the URL 
above. 9fans manage to consistently make fun of this idea while somehow 
simultaneously retaining an incredibly easily offended sense of ownership over 
anything mentioned on 9fans since 1993. Which is the real you? And why do quips 
become verboten only after you've contributed the quips you wanted to 
contribute?

It's not so much keeping the flame as it is simply wanting to run the software 
to actually do things, and realizing that waiting for the last remaining Bell 
Labs staff working on Plan 9 to jump ship is a poor strategy for keeping the OS 
alive. We forked, and the OS lives.

Oblique references to a talk given six years ago about a project the details of 
which you can't reveal publicly is a good example of what I'm describing in 
this thread. What does this innuendo illuminate? Who does it help? Why even 
mention it when you can't elaborate? And this is what you dangle just over the 
heads of newbs? How about providing instead actual advice on how to get the OS 
to do something useful?

The best part about your challenge to produce links is that the 9fans web 
archive has been offline for close to a year. People objected when I made the 
claim 9fans quit bothering with Plan 9, but the status quo leans farther and 
farther away from it with each passing year. Alcatel-Lucent had to be pestered 
on Twitter just to get 

Re: [9fans] Is 9Fans dead or alive

[Skip Tavakkolian]

On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 11:43 AM stanley lieber  wrote:

> Steven Stallion  wrote:
>
> >On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Kurt H Maier  wrote:
> >> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 10:52:31PM -0700, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> >>> > plan 9 as more than a masturbatory aid.
> >>>
> >>> put up or shut up:
> >> ...
> >> Congratulations on your accomplishments!
> >
> >% fn ck { grep $* /n/sources/patch/*/email /n/sources/patch/^(applied
> >maybe saved sorry)^/*/email >[2]/dev/null |wc -l}
> >% ck sstall...@gmail.com
> > 28
> >% ck k...@sciops.net
> >  0
> >
> >Perhaps it's better to be known for the occasional masturbatory
> >session than for being an incorrigible troll.
> >
> >Steve
>
> What's incorrigible is the way you people consistently reply to questions
> from newbs with claims that it is trivial to do various tasks on Plan 9
> without ever quite revealing that 1.) it isn't, and 2.) you aren't really
> referring to the task they suggested, anyway. Skip does this, Every.
> Single. Time. What is the point?
>

you're assuming a person who is new to Plan 9, is new to computing, system
admin or programming.

easy means: "no different than setting up a cpu once you've configured your
fs and auth".  adding entries for 8 rpi's in /lib/ndb/local and /cfg/pxe is
as easy as cutting and pasting after the first one. they all run the same
kernel.

please take the hyperbole down a bit or provide instances for what you
claim i did. the internet has a long memory; http links would be sufficient.

regarding pi cluster, it was related to a work-in-progress i talked about
at IWP9 2010.  i've shared as much detail as i could.


> What do you use that rpi "cluster" for, Skip? Do you mean to imply some
> the availability of some facility for process migration? You know none
> exists.
>
> The latest amusing evolution is a parade of replies from the usual
> suspects where it's never quite clear which of them are promoting or
> denigrating the degraded web-centric nature of modern computing. First
> various ribbons and medals associated with historic Plan 9 campaigns are
> displayed and then the same noble campaigners suggest that Plan 9 users are
> cave men clinging to stone tools. I think the quips are so clever precisely
> because their target is indeterminate. Great, you're funny, but again, what
> is the point?
>
> How does any of this clarify matters for interested newbs?
>
> My personal favorite aspect of this tiresome dance is the eventual
> denunciation of trolls. Here, in the spiritual home of Mark V Shaney!
>
> The problem is not trolling. The problem is low to medium quality
> trolling, performed by armchair quarterbacks who want credit for being Plan
> 9 Gandalfs but who are unwilling to provide the simple service of speaking
> in words that make sense. Mothra forbid any should cast aspersions upon the
> sacred world wide web,
> bringer of the paycheck and dresser of the tongue.
>

and yet, it is you and your ilk who claim the mantle of the true keepers of
the faith, beating back the evildoers.


>
> Kurt provides free hosting for the 9front mercurial repository, after
> Google found better things to do with their time. Thanks, Kurt.
>
> sl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Is 9Fans dead or alive

[Kurt H Maier]

On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 12:55:09PM -0500, Steven Stallion wrote:
> Perhaps it's better to be known for the occasional masturbatory
> session than for being an incorrigible troll.

You know we forked the operating system, right?  I know it's hard to
keep track of things since google reader went down.  And google code
search went down.  And google code went down.  At least we'll always 
have google plus.  You'll find, however, that what code I do write
doesn't wind up there OR on whatever servers Nokia has forgotten to
unplug.

Anyway, as a systems administrator, I help out by providing hosting for
various needful things, as sl mentioned, and by providing quasi-reliable
hosting services for 9front users who don't want to send money to AWS
every month.

I know this is possibly the worst crime a human being can commit, but I
don't really enjoy programming -- I just like to use the software.  How's
that for a one-two punch?

khm

Re: [9fans] Is 9Fans dead or alive

[stanley lieber]

Steven Stallion  wrote:

>On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Kurt H Maier  wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 10:52:31PM -0700, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
>>> > plan 9 as more than a masturbatory aid.
>>>
>>> put up or shut up:
>> ...
>> Congratulations on your accomplishments!
>
>% fn ck { grep $* /n/sources/patch/*/email /n/sources/patch/^(applied
>maybe saved sorry)^/*/email >[2]/dev/null |wc -l}
>% ck sstall...@gmail.com
> 28
>% ck k...@sciops.net
>  0
>
>Perhaps it's better to be known for the occasional masturbatory
>session than for being an incorrigible troll.
>
>Steve

What's incorrigible is the way you people consistently reply to questions from 
newbs with claims that it is trivial to do various tasks on Plan 9 without ever 
quite revealing that 1.) it isn't, and 2.) you aren't really referring to the 
task they suggested, anyway. Skip does this, Every. Single. Time. What is the 
point?

What do you use that rpi "cluster" for, Skip? Do you mean to imply some the 
availability of some facility for process migration? You know none exists.

The latest amusing evolution is a parade of replies from the usual suspects 
where it's never quite clear which of them are promoting or denigrating the 
degraded web-centric nature of modern computing. First various ribbons and 
medals associated with historic Plan 9 campaigns are displayed and then the 
same noble campaigners suggest that Plan 9 users are cave men clinging to stone 
tools. I think the quips are so clever precisely because their target is 
indeterminate. Great, you're funny, but again, what is the point?

How does any of this clarify matters for interested newbs?

My personal favorite aspect of this tiresome dance is the eventual denunciation 
of trolls. Here, in the spiritual home of Mark V Shaney!

The problem is not trolling. The problem is low to medium quality trolling, 
performed by armchair quarterbacks who want credit for being Plan 9 Gandalfs 
but who are unwilling to provide the simple service of speaking in words that 
make sense. Mothra forbid any should cast aspersions upon the sacred world wide 
web,
bringer of the paycheck and dresser of the tongue.

Kurt provides free hosting for the 9front mercurial repository, after Google 
found better things to do with their time. Thanks, Kurt.

sl

Re: [9fans] Is 9Fans dead or alive

[Steven Stallion]

On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Kurt H Maier  wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 10:52:31PM -0700, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
>> > plan 9 as more than a masturbatory aid.
>>
>> put up or shut up:
> ...
> Congratulations on your accomplishments!

% fn ck { grep $* /n/sources/patch/*/email /n/sources/patch/^(applied
maybe saved sorry)^/*/email >[2]/dev/null |wc -l}
% ck sstall...@gmail.com
 28
% ck k...@sciops.net
  0

Perhaps it's better to be known for the occasional masturbatory
session than for being an incorrigible troll.

Steve

Re: [9fans] Is 9Fans dead or alive

[Eduardo Alvarez]

Whatever you like is fine. I'm not picky.

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 7:22 PM, Chris McGee  wrote:
> Sure,
>
> I'm looking for plan9 user/enthusiast appropriate medium. Any suggestions?
>
> Chris
>
>> On Aug 30, 2016, at 6:18 PM, Eduardo Alvarez  
>> wrote:
>>
>> Are you keeping your progess public? It would be very educational to read.
>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 7:10 PM, Chris McGee  wrote:
>>> I am about a quarter of the way to a similar setup.
>>>
>>> My goal is to have a specialty for each of the Pi's (sensors, controller,
>>> terminal, router) without preventing them from doing general tasks. I'm
>>> hoping to eventually connect up some Pi zeros as leaf nodes for just
>>> sensor/control and plumb through 9P via UART pins.
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> On Aug 30, 2016, at 3:36 PM, Skip Tavakkolian 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> It is straightforward and easy:
>>>
>>> https://plus.google.com/+SkipTavakkolian/posts/Fb846KhBMM6
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 11:54 AM Eduardo Alvarez 
>>> wrote:

 I mostly lurk around here, as I'm greener than green when it comes to
 plan 9. At some point in time, a friend and I were discussing setting
 up a small-sized computing cluster for small scale distributed
 computations. I was keen on the idea of using inexpensive hardware (we
 even joked about using a truckloads of Raspberry Pis), and plan 9
 seemed like an excellent candidate for the infrastructure. The biggest
 challenge was porting software to Plan 9. Sadly, the idea never took
 off. It would be a fun experiment.

 Eduardo Alvarez

 On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Jules Merit
  wrote:
> Well let's hope someone does something. Mark-my-words is writing
> beautiful
> code that has already been done.
>
> Push a little button, get .hot .chocolate.
> -- Russ Cox Cable von Shane
>
>
> On Aug 30, 2016 10:03 AM, "Skip Tavakkolian"
> 
> wrote:
>>
>> I heard that too (I think the woot was for Go on Plan 9/ARM).  I'm
>> sorry I
>> missed that meetup.
>>
>> I've been thinking about setting up a meetup for 9fans in Seattle area.
>> There seems to be renewed interest (or perhaps it's my wishful
>> thinking).
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 9:27 AM michaelian ennis
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 12:26 PM, Skip Tavakkolian
>>>  wrote:
>>>
 as a 9fan, I can say, not dead yet. In fact the population of 9fans
 in
 my neighborhood has doubled.
>>>
>>>
>>> And for the county it has at least tripled.  I heard at least one
>>> other
>>> woot for Plan9 at Brad Fitzpatrick's talk last week.  :)
>>>
>>> Ian
>>
>
>

Re: [9fans] devsegment usage examples

[Giacomo Tesio]

Neat, thanks!
I wonder if a similar approach could be used to move some device drivers
out of kernel...

Btw, I did read the sample in segment(3) but I was looking for a real world
example.
What I'm trying to understand is not *how* to use devsegment, but *when* to
use it.
Which problems is it designed to solve?

Moreover, Zinq's graphics use a very smart approach, but it's specific to
9front evolution of the device with the "fixed" type.
I'm also looking for the general use case, when segments are not used for
DMA, as designed in the original Plan9.


Giacomo

2016-08-31 12:40 GMT+02:00 :

> > Hi, I'm looking for an usage example of devsegment.
> >
> > I cannot find anything neither in bhro's plan9 nor in 9front.
> >
> > Can anybody share a real usage world example?
> >
> >
> > Giacomo
>
> its just creating named segments of some shared memory.
>
> segment(3) has an example. read it.
>
> on 9front, you can also allocate physically continuous segments *and*
> get the physical base address for it :)
>
> one application for it is on the zynq. the displayport graphics is
> implemented using the fpga and userspace uses devsegment
> to allocate 5MB of physically continous memory for the framebuffer:
>
> #!/bin/rc
> rfork en
> bind -c '#g' /mnt/segment
> if(! test -d /mnt/segment/fb){
> mkdir /mnt/segment/fb
> echo 'va 0x0050 0x0050 fixed' > /mnt/segment/fb/ctl
> }
>
> bind -b '#P' /dev
> audio/pcmconv -i 'c1u32r1' -o 'c1U32r1' < ./build/out.bin > /dev/pl
>
> then some c code programs the graphics register and hands the
> loaded core the physical address for DMA.
>
> --
> cinap
>
>

Re: [9fans] devsegment usage examples

[cinap_lenrek]

> Hi, I'm looking for an usage example of devsegment.
>
> I cannot find anything neither in bhro's plan9 nor in 9front.
>
> Can anybody share a real usage world example?
>
>
> Giacomo

its just creating named segments of some shared memory.

segment(3) has an example. read it.

on 9front, you can also allocate physically continuous segments *and*
get the physical base address for it :)

one application for it is on the zynq. the displayport graphics is
implemented using the fpga and userspace uses devsegment
to allocate 5MB of physically continous memory for the framebuffer:

#!/bin/rc
rfork en
bind -c '#g' /mnt/segment
if(! test -d /mnt/segment/fb){
mkdir /mnt/segment/fb
echo 'va 0x0050 0x0050 fixed' > /mnt/segment/fb/ctl
}

bind -b '#P' /dev
audio/pcmconv -i 'c1u32r1' -o 'c1U32r1' < ./build/out.bin > /dev/pl

then some c code programs the graphics register and hands the
loaded core the physical address for DMA.

--
cinap

[9fans] devsegment usage examples

[Giacomo Tesio]

Hi, I'm looking for an usage example of devsegment.

I cannot find anything neither in bhro's plan9 nor in 9front.

Can anybody share a real usage world example?


Giacomo

Re: [9fans] Is 9Fans dead or alive

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 10:52:31PM -0700, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> > plan 9 as more than a masturbatory aid.
> 
> put up or shut up:

Sorry, I can't win uptime games, as the kernel I use is maintained.
To my great regret, instead of six hundred 50MFLOPS computers I don't
use, I only have three or four real computers that I do :(

Congratulations on your accomplishments!

khm