Re: [9fans] plan 9 and lisp

2023-01-23 Thread Nick LaForge
Not Plan 9, but lately I've been working in Chicken, which is a lovely
pragmatic Scheme for *nix: https://www.call-cc.org/ . Perhaps I should give
s9fes a shot as well!

Nick

On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 11:47 AM Bakul Shah  wrote:

> Thanks!
>
> Nick Nickolov's k comes with solutions to ~150  AoC-{2015..2022} puzzles.
> All run when you make k! As an example, here is aoc/21/25.k (Game of Sea
> Cucumbers, which Russ vlogged about):
>
> #!../../k
> n:#'1*:\x:".>v"?0:"i/25"
> (l;d;r;u):n/'n!'/:(!n)+/:3(|1 -1*)\!2 /left down right up
> i:0;{i+:1;x:a[r]+x*~a:(1=x)>x l;(2*a d)+x*~a:(2=x)>x u}/,/x;i
>
> [Of course, the real fun is in solving these puzzles but it helps to know
> what others do!]
> Unfortunately no plan9 port as it relies on mmap.
>
> https://codeberg.org/ngn/k
> https://xpqz.github.io/kbook/Introduction.html
> https://github.com/razetime/ngn-k-tutorial
>
> It is also one of the fastest (~0.5 sec to generate and add a billion
> numbers on a Ryzen 2700).
>
> On Jan 19, 2023, at 9:07 AM, Skip Tavakkolian 
> wrote:
>
> Regarding Ivy, rsc has some fantastic example code in the form of
> solutions to the Advent of Code 2021 puzzles:
> https://www.youtube.com/@rscgolang/videos
>
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 7:48 AM Bakul Shah  wrote:
>
>
> On Jan 19, 2023, at 7:57 AM, mkf9  wrote:
>
>
> Lassi Kortela wrote:
>
> Chibi-Scheme has run on Plan 9.
>
> and also S9, which Bakul Shah ported to Plan 9,
> https://github.com/bakul/s9fes.
>
>
> Nils M Holm, the author of s9fes, did the original
> port with some help from me. He didn't want to
> maintain plan9 related changes which is why I am
> maintaining it. Nils also has a book on it but
> AFAIK it doesn't cover anything specific to plan9.
>
> Speaking of little languages
> Nils also ported his klong array programming language
> to plan9 & has a book on it! Slightly more verbose
> than k (roughly k3 from kx.com)
>
> Then there is https://github.com/ktye/i which supports
> a dialect of k. Not sure which, probably k6 or k7. And
> there is minimal help in the form of readme.txt but it
> compiles & runs on 9front:
>
> % git/clone https://github.com/ktye/i
> % git/clone https://github.com/ktye/wg
> % cd i
> % go build '-buildvcs=false'
> % ./k
> ktye/k
> !10
> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
> +\!10
> 0 1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45
> d:`a`b`c!(1 2;3 4;5 6)
> d
> `a|1 2
> `b|3 4
> `c|5 6
> +d
> a b c
> -
> 1 3 5
> 2 4 6
> \\
> 
> There is of course Rob Pike's ivy.
> 
> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions
>  + participants
>  + delivery options
>  Permalink
> 

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[9fans] TabFS

2021-01-02 Thread Nick LaForge
Saw this on hacker news today: https://omar.website/tabfs/

It's for *nix and not Plan 9, but just glancing through the project
description it looks like it'll get you to something like webfs from abaco.

Didn't I see someone put "mozilla.tar" in their contrib directory a while
back? Well, I think that was a joke, but hey, maybe with 9p and VNC one
could control a Linux instance of Firefox by directly mounting its TabFS
filesystem!

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Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list

2014-08-13 Thread Nick LaForge
The last two comments on this page might be of interest:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7640937

(I found that simply by searching using the 'site' operator on Google:
site:news.ycombinator.com maidsafe news.ycombinator.com is a good
place to read about a given startup.)

On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 12:44 AM, John Francis Lee jf...@yahoo.com wrote:
 sorry ... I didn't realize I was replying to the list ... the email I got 
 came from an individual

 --
 This message has been intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies 
 including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge of 
 sender or recipient.

 John Francis Lee
 246/3 Thanon Kaew Wai
 T.Ropwiang A.Mueang J.Chiangrai 57000
 Thailand

 
 On Wed, 8/13/14, Shane Morris edgecombe...@gmail.com wrote:

  Subject: Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 9fans@9fans.net
  Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2014, 2:37 PM

  You should
  amend that This message has been
  intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies including
  the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge
  of sender or recipient. with something about shadowy
  Goggle like computers feltching information on your spending
  habits...

  The world changed on us
  Marty - and without our help, I might
  add...


  On Wed,
  Aug 13, 2014 at 5:29 PM, John Francis Lee jf...@yahoo.com
  wrote:

  The
  reason things are so insecure is because the US government
  likes it that way, desinged it that way and does everything
  it can to keep it that way. They are the beyond a doubt the
  biggest gang of organized criminals on earth : liars,
  murderers, spies ... you name it.




  Thanks for welcoming me to the list ... but I see you use
  google yourself ... second only to the US government as
  spies ... soon to surpass, I'm sure. I use yahoo trash
  mail for the list because I'd like to keep my
  'real' email address to myself (when I find one).
  You deliver all your correspondents's mail to the
  googleplex along with your own. You have a choice ... but
  you foreclose your correspondents' ... if they want to
  correspond with you. Google has it all.




  --

  This message has been intercepted and read by U.S.
  government agencies including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without
  notice or warrant or knowledge of sender or
  recipient.



  John Francis Lee

  246/3 Thanon Kaew Wai

  T.Ropwiang A.Mueang J.Chiangrai 57000

  Thailand



  

  On Wed, 8/6/14, Nick LaForge nicklafo...@gmail.com
  wrote:



   Subject: Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans
  mailing list

   To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
  9fans@9fans.net

   Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014, 10:16 AM



   And, today

   especially, that advice applies to everybody:



   
 http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_26281956/record-breaking-data-breach-highlights-widespread-security-flaws








   On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at

   5:14 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com

   wrote:



You must know your password

   to change your options (including changing



the password, itself) or to unsubscribe.  It
  is:



   



  3224522



   







   please change your password for this mailing list.

   this one is out in public.







   i hope you aren't reusing passwords.



















Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list

2014-08-13 Thread Nick LaForge
Please ignore my last message.  It was intended for an entirely
different email thread.  How embarrassing.  (At least the SnR was
pretty low to begin with.)



On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 1:20 AM, Nick LaForge nicklafo...@gmail.com wrote:
 The last two comments on this page might be of interest:

 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7640937

 (I found that simply by searching using the 'site' operator on Google:
 site:news.ycombinator.com maidsafe news.ycombinator.com is a good
 place to read about a given startup.)

 On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 12:44 AM, John Francis Lee jf...@yahoo.com wrote:
 sorry ... I didn't realize I was replying to the list ... the email I got 
 came from an individual

 --
 This message has been intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies 
 including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge of 
 sender or recipient.

 John Francis Lee
 246/3 Thanon Kaew Wai
 T.Ropwiang A.Mueang J.Chiangrai 57000
 Thailand

 
 On Wed, 8/13/14, Shane Morris edgecombe...@gmail.com wrote:

  Subject: Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 9fans@9fans.net
  Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2014, 2:37 PM

  You should
  amend that This message has been
  intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies including
  the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge
  of sender or recipient. with something about shadowy
  Goggle like computers feltching information on your spending
  habits...

  The world changed on us
  Marty - and without our help, I might
  add...


  On Wed,
  Aug 13, 2014 at 5:29 PM, John Francis Lee jf...@yahoo.com
  wrote:

  The
  reason things are so insecure is because the US government
  likes it that way, desinged it that way and does everything
  it can to keep it that way. They are the beyond a doubt the
  biggest gang of organized criminals on earth : liars,
  murderers, spies ... you name it.




  Thanks for welcoming me to the list ... but I see you use
  google yourself ... second only to the US government as
  spies ... soon to surpass, I'm sure. I use yahoo trash
  mail for the list because I'd like to keep my
  'real' email address to myself (when I find one).
  You deliver all your correspondents's mail to the
  googleplex along with your own. You have a choice ... but
  you foreclose your correspondents' ... if they want to
  correspond with you. Google has it all.




  --

  This message has been intercepted and read by U.S.
  government agencies including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without
  notice or warrant or knowledge of sender or
  recipient.



  John Francis Lee

  246/3 Thanon Kaew Wai

  T.Ropwiang A.Mueang J.Chiangrai 57000

  Thailand



  

  On Wed, 8/6/14, Nick LaForge nicklafo...@gmail.com
  wrote:



   Subject: Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans
  mailing list

   To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
  9fans@9fans.net

   Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014, 10:16 AM



   And, today

   especially, that advice applies to everybody:



   
 http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_26281956/record-breaking-data-breach-highlights-widespread-security-flaws








   On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at

   5:14 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com

   wrote:



You must know your password

   to change your options (including changing



the password, itself) or to unsubscribe.  It
  is:



   



  3224522



   







   please change your password for this mailing list.

   this one is out in public.







   i hope you aren't reusing passwords.



















Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list

2014-08-05 Thread Nick LaForge
And, today especially, that advice applies to everybody:

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_26281956/record-breaking-data-breach-highlights-widespread-security-flaws


On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 5:14 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com
wrote:

  You must know your password to change your options (including changing
  the password, itself) or to unsubscribe.  It is:
 
3224522
 

 please change your password for this mailing list. this one is out in
 public.

 i hope you aren't reusing passwords.




Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

2013-03-17 Thread Nick LaForge
Plan 9 was (and perhaps always will be?) ahead of it's time.  In
addition, though, it's really the minimalist aesthetic that has made
it far outlast most other academic software.  All that intelligent
thought really did work to drastically raise the signal to noise ratio
of every aspect of the system (e.g., its literate style of code, the
high ratio of good ideas to lines of code, and that everything hangs
so well together).

You'd certainly get a more resonant response if you too were to
increase the SnR  -- of your messages (perhaps by taking some of Plan
9's minimalism to heart).  As of now, you could probably make the
analogy that your emails have been to GNU cat as everyone else's are
to /sys/src/cmd/cat.c.

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 1:14 PM,  mycrof...@sphericalharmony.com wrote:
 John Floren wrote:
 But can you cut it out with the fucking nuclear meltdowns all over
 this list? And fix your email client so it replies to threads
 properly?

 No, I am not giving up, and I am going to take this a lot further.  In
 fact, it is very clear to me what the absolute purpose of my life is.
 I believe my father died too early, that he left unfinished business
 in his life as a Law Professor.  He didn't like what had become of
 Patent and IP law.  He didn't like seeing how it was being abused.
 And I guarantee that he would NOT like the situation that his son is
 in vis-a-vis IBM.

 So I am dedicating my life to this in a public way, and I am going to
 dedicate every penny of money from my father's inheritance to fighting
 the patent bs that I see in Plan 9.  I am going to use my father's
 money to try to carry on the work that i believe he wished he would
 have done had he still lived - trying to make a difference in changing
 the patent system.

 If my father was alive and not sick, I think he'd be writing academic
 papers attacking the kinds of patent BS engaged in by IBM and others.
 He's not, so I will do what I can - and so I intend to start
 researching all Plan 9/9P related patents, and then attempting an
 individual effort to fight them and have them invalidated in court.

 Maybe nobody wants to use ANTS, but I am sure it has plenty of ideas
 in it that are about the same as those which get patented by large
 corporations.  I don't any of this stuff patented.  Since I've just
 released ANTS it forms a body of prior art (and is based on projects
 on sources going back to 2009) so I am going to investigate every
 patent I can find in this area, and then see if a crazy guy in a
 basementy can actually mount an effective attack on the
 Patent-Industrial complex.

 I really admire you Mr. Floren, your work on 9p streams is one of the
 best papers done on Plan 9 with practical value.  Why don't you see
 that I am an honest programmer working in an honest way to try to make
 the world a better place?  Everything I do is trying to help the human
 race survive and for human beings to be happy and care for one
 another.

 I love you, and I wish you to be my friend, John Floren.

 Peace and Love,
 Ben Kidwell
 mycroftiv




Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

2013-03-17 Thread Nick LaForge
Content aside, the brevity of your message also supports the actual,
intended meaning of what I wrote.

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Kurt H Maier kh...@intma.in wrote:
 On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 02:25:27PM -0700, Nick LaForge wrote:

 As of now, you could probably make the
 analogy that your emails have been to GNU cat as everyone else's are
 to /sys/src/cmd/cat.c.


 I choose to interpret this to mean you think millions of people use
 mycroft's messages every day, and only a select few individuals use
 everyone else's messages, mostly on OS X.

 khm





Re: [9fans] Acme: the way the future actually was

2012-09-14 Thread Nick LaForge
Speak of the devil

Good artists copy, great artists steal.

-Pablo Picasso^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HSteven
Jobs^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HSamsung Ltd.(?)

This message: -some blogger^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HNick LaForge

Typos by me.  Sent from my meEgo (alphabet button invention included).
 (Don't) forgive me, Elop.

On 9/14/12, Anssi Porttikivi porttik...@gmail.com wrote:
 Typos by iPhone. Forgive me, Rob.

 t. Anssi

 Anssi Porttikivi porttik...@gmail.com kirjoitti 14.9.2012 kello 23.00:

 Note that Oberon the OS was a stated influence of Ron Pike et. al. Even in
 Go, type embedding and resistance to class hierarchies relates back to
 Oberon, the language.



 Jack Johnson knapj...@gmail.com wrote 14.9.2012 kello 19.48:

 Even with it's faults (age?), I still miss Oberon. It was *fun* and
 elegant.

 -Jack






Re: [9fans] It seems Plan 9 is on Hacker News

2012-08-18 Thread Nick LaForge
Oh yeah, already a comment about the GUI 'sucking'!  A bit more
fortitude is in order, right?  Even if the status quo is to be a WIMP?
 Regardless, it takes a lazy dilettante to complain in this manner
about a research system (an incredibly malleable one, to boot).  It
also seems that rio's simplicity wasn't sufficient a hint that
replacing it might be simple too.

On 8/17/12, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote:
 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4397390

 I like presotto's comment.





Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs

2012-06-17 Thread Nick LaForge
huh.  I guess there was a recent machine with sata and GbE and a
decent cpu/ram (tegra 2/1GB).  $200.  I'm still a little hesitant
about Nvidia, but to avoid further damaging relations with processor
designers I'll defer to Torvalds' statement on the matter from
Thursday in Finland.

-Nick

Sent from my N900 (RIP linux Nokia phones)

On 6/17/12, arn...@skeeve.com arn...@skeeve.com wrote:
 http://raymii.org/cms/p_Small_Linux_PCs_overview

 Arnold





Re: [9fans] Mini PCs

2012-06-11 Thread Nick LaForge
 sadly, the 10/100 ethernet is provided through a flakey usb hub

I think the 'cheap arm dev board' bandwagon will always suffer in this
regard, since the phones these SoCs were designed for don't even come
close to needing gbe

On 6/11/12, Tharaneedharan Vilwanathan vdhar...@gmail.com wrote:
 what about teg2 for which geoff announced support recently?

 btw, i have two raspberry pi at home now. i would like to run plan9
 and inferno (at least emu) on it as soon as possible.

 dharani

 On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 2:07 PM, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Winston Weinert winst...@lavabit.com
 wrote:
 On Sun, 2012-06-10 at 18:19 -0400, Comeau At9Fans wrote:
 * Raspberry Pi
 * Cotton Candy
 * Mele A1000
 * MK802

 Some other _pricier_ products to consider (and a larger variety of
 integrated components):
 * Beagleboard
 * Beaglebone
 * Pandaboard
 * Pico-ITX formfactor x86 motherboard


 Some of these should work already; /sys/src/9/omap/beagle seems to
 indicate that you can already boot a beagleboard, for instance. As for
 anything not based on the supported SoCs, well, until people stop
 sitting on ass saying boy that would be a nice terminal and actually
 start PORTING the damn thing, it'll never be more than Yet Another
 120-message 9fans Thread.

 I got the Efika Smarttop through quite a bit of the early boot over
 the course of an afternoon, before finally getting pissed off at
 having to re-write an SD card every time I iterated the kernel. It
 shouldn't be *too* hard to get a minimally functional system, the code
 in /sys/src/9 is quite good. Oh, there's another thing, for the love
 of god don't buy a system that can't netboot, it's just not worth it.

 Or we could ignore all these and, in grand 9fans tradition, start
 talking about a port to some hardware platform that's been dead for
 over 5 years. SPARC64 et al are sorta played out by now, but I've got
 a PDP-11 just sitting around...


 john






Re: [9fans] Mini PCs

2012-06-11 Thread Nick LaForge
Sure.  But the Sheevaplug (same SoC) is now 3 years old, and it looks
like the whole 'plug-computer' thing never took off.  Since phones
seem to be the only consistent market for fast Arm SoCs, we're likely
to see one with usb3 before gbe.  But I'll shut up now in deference to
somebody with actual experience.

On 6/11/12, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Nick LaForge nicklafo...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 sadly, the 10/100 ethernet is provided through a flakey usb hub

 I think the 'cheap arm dev board' bandwagon will always suffer in this
 regard, since the phones these SoCs were designed for don't even come
 close to needing gbe


 Guruplug?





[9fans] bind on windows?

2012-04-01 Thread Nick LaForge
On Windows, I often want to plop a single file into some admin-owned
directory.  E.g., I have +rx perms but not write, and some
admin-installed program insists on writing to or reading/executing a
plugin of mine in its own u-w directory.  Has anybody used something
like bind on Windows?  I found this, but it looks like overkill:
http://dokan.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/dokan/readme.txt



Re: [9fans] bind on windows?

2012-04-01 Thread Nick LaForge
(should have said o-w and not u-w)

On 4/1/12, Nick LaForge nicklafo...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Windows, I often want to plop a single file into some admin-owned
 directory.  E.g., I have +rx perms but not write, and some
 admin-installed program insists on writing to or reading/executing a
 plugin of mine in its own u-w directory.  Has anybody used something
 like bind on Windows?  I found this, but it looks like overkill:
 http://dokan.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/dokan/readme.txt




Re: [9fans] bind on windows?

2012-04-01 Thread Nick LaForge
Thanks; it's for my own convenience and not for others, so
certificates aren't an issue.

On 4/1/12, Aram Hăvărneanu ara...@mgk.ro wrote:
 When I was writing Windows file systems for living, I played with the
 Dokan library. Played is a very good word, it's a toy, at best. And
 maybe even that's an overstatement.

 Implementing bind in a file system filter is easy, as far as writing
 Windows filesystems goes, but unfortunately to be able to hand it to
 people you need to pay around $400 to some certificate authority to
 sign your kernel mode driver, else Windows won't load it.

 If you're the only user you can add yourself as a certificate
 authority, and you can use your own work for free.





Re: [9fans] Config File parsing

2012-02-27 Thread Nick LaForge
Are you certain you want to use Lex?  If no, you may like this
fascinating and instructive lecture by Rob Pike, which solves a lexing
problem using Golang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxaD_trXwRE

If you have The Unix Programming Environment handy, you will also
find a lucid tutorial of Lex and Yacc both (in the later chapters).

Nick

On 2/27/12, arn...@skeeve.com arn...@skeeve.com wrote:
 O'Reilly's lex  yacc is somewhat more user-friendly a reference than
 the dragon book, although the latter certainly has its value. :-)

 Arnold





Re: [9fans] Sad News

2011-10-13 Thread Nick LaForge
 It is so sad that the people most responsible for the key software
 technologies are almost unheard of by the general public, and most
 credit seems to be given to people that jump on the bandwagon much
 later..

 If there was a Nobel prize for software, dmr would have been one of
 the top on my list.

The public's traditional fascination with physics makes an interesting
comparison, considering the relative obscurity computer science
enjoys.

Physics' gifts include nuclear fission, medical imaging, aerospace,
semiconducting... the list is enumerable. Yet the greatest celebrity
among physicists undoubtedly is Albert Einstein, who's contributions
are most significant theoretically (aerospace aside).  So it seems
fitting that a similarly theoretical and precise discipline like
computer science should enjoy comparable status (in opposition to the
actual situation where Gates and Jobs get the glory).  Ironically, the
real reason for mathematics omission by Nobel likely was that Alfred
Nobel thought it TOO theoretical a discipline (see
http://mathforum.org/social/articles/ross.html).  Regardless, it took
people like dmr (and Turing, Church, Shannon, Neumann, Dijkstra,
Backus, Forsythe, Floyd, Hoare, Knuth, ...) to map abstract
mathematical science onto workable machines.

Maybe such a collaborative science doesn't permit hero worship?  Dmr's
own publicly visible accomplishments alone make him worthy of it, yet
his humility was so apparent (I'm not a person who particularly had
heros when growing up).  Perhaps his behind-the-scenes impact among
his colleagues at Bell Labs eclipse even what everyone else can see.

But it's still sad that among those acquainted with Einstein and his
contributions, less than 1% seem to even know who Turing was.

Nick



Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p

2011-10-09 Thread Nick LaForge
 wut

http://movie.subtitlr.com/subtitle/show/94536#line121



Re: [9fans] inferno on android on slashdot

2011-09-17 Thread Nick LaForge
Hey Erik,

I thought you'd said you didn't read Slashdot!

On 9/17/11, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote:
 hot grits!

 - erik





Re: [9fans] Plan 9 is dead

2011-09-15 Thread Nick LaForge
O rinnovarsi o perire

http://books.google.com/books?id=n_p0TmPHIJwCpg=PA166q=O%20rinnovarsi%20o%20perire

Anyway, I guess you're pissed that you have to use Hg and install
Python?  Sorry, but Plan 9 can't reinvent the wheel in 2011.

Just consider how MIT dropped Scheme for Python in intro courses.  Toy
language construction no longer precedes practical programming;
likewise, who outside 9fans would use a replica replacement?  So why
write one?  Better to focus on what counts as Sussman did with
Scheme/SICP which is instead offered to advanced students who better
appreciate it (6.945).

Plus, it's never been a committee. (Would Plan 9 seem less dead to you
if others stopped working on it?)

On 9/15/11, Bruce Ellis bruce.el...@gmail.com wrote:
 just when the bunny was out of the bag ...

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEZbtpdckJA

 On 16 September 2011 06:17, Bakul Shah ba...@bitblocks.com wrote:
 On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:56:54 PDT David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  Christoph Lohmann wrote:
 
  Hello,
 
  now that an academic non-polished Plan 9 remake with idiotic
  dependencies and the fun OS, which has its only goal to add
  political jokes, are taking all the pace, I hereby declare,
  that Plan 9 is MORE ALIVE THAN EVER.
 
  Rest In Peace.
 
 
  Sincerely,
 
  Christoph Lohmann
 
 
  FTFY
 
  Giving a new direction to plan 9 is, in a sense, a death.  Death is the
 gateway to a new beginning.

 Plan 9 is dead, long live Plan 9.

 Don't nix Plan9! Nix Plan9!





 --
 Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE)





Re: [9fans] NIX 64-bit kernel is available

2011-09-14 Thread Nick LaForge
Kudos to the involved researchers for valuing such public involvement. :-)

Performance numbers immediately come to mind considering the nature of
the work.  I know Ron's past talks considered bottleneck analysis, but
for those of us not running such large machines it is probably
necessary to read the numerical results that indicate what code
is/isn't ill-adapted to performance computing.

Surely though I'm jumping the gun and need to wait for Ron's talk to tell all.

Nick

On 9/14/11, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote:
 On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Bakul Shah ba...@bitblocks.com wrote:
 On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 13:42:53 PDT John Floren j...@jfloren.net  wrote:

 We have discussed this. Nixie was a proposed new name, but for now
 we'd rather get the actual code and distribution right than worry
 about the name.

 I like the name Nixie ( Nixie tubes ( Nixie tube watches!))
 but isn't Nixie a trademark?

 Make it really small and it can be Pixie. With readymade mascots.

 A memorable name is a requirement these days -- you don't want
 first 10^6 google hits for something else.



 I don't want to drag out the discussion, but:

 1. Nixie is pretty much generic these days. Wikipedia even calls it a
 genericised trademark.
 2. Nixies are also Germanic water spirits.

 I think we're good :)


 John





Re: [9fans] Nemo book

2011-09-14 Thread Nick LaForge
Since you're on Ubuntu, why don't you start learning the ropes of the
Plan 9 programming environment by compiling/running 9vx on Ubuntu and
then hitting the papers?  That way you can easily continue to use
Mozilla and invest minimal time before being able to actually get
something out of Plan 9 (you'll need to write some file servers as
well as thoroughly appreciate the concurrency model).

You'll find 9vx is also a great utility for more effectively using Linux.

Inside 9vx, you should also see 'man 1 abaco' and decide if you really
need Mozilla.

Nick

On 9/14/11, L N leonardne...@gmail.com wrote:
  I think you have seriously misapprehended many things about Plan 9.


 What am I misapprehending?


 We don't have X. We are not Linux compatible, although there's a
 rather decent Linux emulator. There is no GTK, no Qt, no Firefox, no
 modern C++ compiler.


 I don't need X, Linux compatibility, GTK, Qt, Firefox, or C++.

 I need an OS that runs a browser.

 I was using startx in the figurative sense.



 I think it's time for people to stop telling the Plan 9 community
 what its goals should be,


 Are my-two-cents worth a negative amount?


 when these people haven't even booted Plan
 9.


 Why should I boot Plan 9, when I know I can't run a browser, and I already
 have p9p?

 John


  - Leonard




Re: [9fans] files vs. directories

2011-02-03 Thread Nick LaForge
 me wonders what ever happened to Hans...

Is that really necessary?  I'm guessing it was intended as a joke.

Back in the 10th grade I spent a few months running a Reiser4 linux
root.  It was kind of a piece of junk, frequently locking up and
giving inconsistent performance.  C.f.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect

Nick



Re: [9fans] Modern development language for Plan 9, WAS: Re: RESOLVED: recoving important header file rudely

2011-02-02 Thread Nick LaForge
BCPL makes C look like a very high-level language and provides
absolutely no type checking or run-time support.

B. Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++, 1994


C++ was designed to be used in a rather traditional compilation and
run-time environment, the C programming environment on the UNIX
system.  Facilities such as exception handling or concurrent
programming that require nontrivial loader and run-time support are
not included in C++.  Consequently, a C++ implementation can be very
easily ported.

B. Stroustrup, The C++ Programming Language, 1986


Except for the new, delete, typeid, dynamic_cast, and throw operators
and the try-block, individual C++ expressions and statements need no
run-time support.

B. Stroustrup, The C++ Programming Language, 3rd ed., 2000


Nick



Re: [9fans] ARM based terminal?

2011-02-01 Thread Nick LaForge
Dyslexia and confirmation bias.  Wikipedia says I have source amnesia.

I do remember reading about the thing, but only that.

However nice it may be, I can't justify buying yet another N900-parity SBC.

Nick

On 2/1/11, Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote:

 On 27 Jan 2011, at 8:50 pm, Nick LaForge wrote:

 I mean 'Pandaboard'.

 On 1/27/11, Nick LaForge nicklafo...@gmail.com wrote:

 A9 based SoCs do 1080p, and you can try one out by getting a
 Pandoraboard.

 heh, speaking of the pandora[1] has anyone looked at it with an eye
 to getting plan 9 on it? It's pocket sized with a fair-sized display,
 600MHz omap 3530, 256MB ram, wifi, bluetooth, etc.

 [1]: http://openpandora.org/





Re: [9fans] Modern development language for Plan 9, WAS: Re: RESOLVED: recoving important header file rudely

2011-02-01 Thread Nick LaForge
I hope it won't seem rude to suggest it, but the go-nuts list is the
optimum place for your specific concerns.  The Go authors read it and
are very conscientious in responding to serious questions.

The Go authors did express confidence that GC performance could
eventually be made competitive, although I couldn't tell you whether
that has yet happened.  I would nevertheless keep in mind that they
are experienced professionals (c.f. Inferno) and that you'd be wrong
to malign GC categorically based on your experiences with the
proliferation of various toy languages on the net.  (I won't mention
names.)

If you want a modern C++ or some other heavyweight language on Plan 9,
I'll point out that there was some talk in August about a LLVM port,
though you'll be hard pressed to find many here that desire it above
Go.

Nick

On 2/2/11, Jacob Todd jaketodd...@gmail.com wrote:
 And russ cox, and everyone else in the CONTRIBUTORS file.
 On Feb 2, 2011 12:39 AM, Scott Sullivan sc...@ss.org wrote:




Re: [9fans] ARM based terminal?

2011-01-27 Thread Nick LaForge
 You might take a look at the Beagle Boards.  They're OMAP-based and
 completely open source hardware.  So, if you feel up to it, you can tack
 on pretty much anything you like.

Except high throughput peripherals like video.

Cortex A8 based SoCs found in the Gumstix Overo and the Beagleboard
only sport a 720p video core.

A9 based SoCs do 1080p, and you can try one out by getting a Pandoraboard.

I don't really need 1080p though, and we already bought Overos.

Nick



Re: [9fans] ARM based terminal?

2011-01-27 Thread Nick LaForge
The Armada 168 does do WUXGA (1920x1200), so don't bother with that TI
Pandaboard, especially since TI still thinks it's okay to implement
ethernet using the usb bus.

It is kind of a bummer that omap based boards like Gumstix don't
include GBe, though the feature is admittedly superflous on a SoC
targeted for mobile phones.

I do like the fact that the omap is pretty much unbrickable.  I wonder
if Erik has been able to reflash his plug

Nick



Re: [9fans] how to make hardware work?

2011-01-17 Thread Nick LaForge
 drivers for a few USB audio devices, but that's basically
 it. If you have neither, you'll have to write the driver yourself.

John,

You asked about this here:

http://9fans.net/archive/2010/10/464

Did you ever settle on a usb audio device yourself?  I'll try to get
mine to work.

Should there even be different usb audio drivers?  I thought audio was
part of the usb standard.

Nick



Re: [9fans] how to make hardware work?

2011-01-17 Thread Nick LaForge
 afaik, there is a single usb audio device driver.

usb/audio works well, I just plugged in this ($5 plus shipping)

http://www.amazon.com/Syba-SD-CM-UAUD-Adapter-C-Media-Chipset/dp/B001MSS6CS

and it sounds great.

Nick



Re: [9fans] how to make hardware work?

2011-01-17 Thread Nick LaForge
I think recording could work.  However, right now reading
'#u'/usb/$inputendpoint/data gives wave audio that is encoded at the
wrong speed (and frequency) and is truncated.

Nick

On 1/17/11, Francisco J Ballesteros n...@lsub.org wrote:
 recording may not work. I dont know if anyone tried.
 volume should work fine.

 On Tuesday, January 18, 2011, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote:
 At Mon, 17 Jan 2011 14:35:43 -0500,
 Nick LaForge wrote:

  afaik, there is a single usb audio device driver.

 usb/audio works well, I just plugged in this ($5 plus shipping)

 http://www.amazon.com/Syba-SD-CM-UAUD-Adapter-C-Media-Chipset/dp/B001MSS6CS

 and it sounds great.

 Nick


 Playback, recording, and volume changing all work? If so, I may just
 order one tonight.

 John





Re: [9fans] plan9 compatible notebook

2011-01-15 Thread Nick LaForge
I find my 600e to be very fast with Plan 9.

*ducks*

On 1/15/11, Jacob Todd jaketodd...@gmail.com wrote:
 Check the wiki page 'supported hardware.' There's at least one thinkpad on
 the list.




Re: [9fans] Plan9 from scratch

2011-01-10 Thread Nick LaForge
I'm curious: do you plan on executing the output of 8c and 8l in an
environment as strange as one the you are building in?  You could try
building only programs and then try executing those, i.e., by using
one of

http://www.chunder.com/plan9/9ee.html
http://swtch.com/9vx/

If you just want an x86 kernel, I think it begs the question.  The
distribution comes with x86 binaries, and rebuilding the whole system
is as simple as mk.

Anyway, you may be shocked by this if you come from a linux background
where complilation is viewed as some sort of sacrificial ritual.

Nick

On 1/10/11, Artem Novikov noviko...@gmail.com wrote:
 I want to build Plan9 from scratch under Windows/*NIX.
 I built working (seems :) toolchain (yacc, 8a, 8c, 8l) under Windows
 XP using Open Watcom Compiller.
 Has anyone done something similar?





Re: [9fans] Plan9 development

2010-11-05 Thread Nick LaForge
 A honest question: what is the rationale for merging functionality of make and
 shell into one?

Use your imagination

Nick



Re: [9fans] Google code-in?

2010-11-05 Thread Nick LaForge
'Summer of code' for high school students?

Frankly, looking at its phrasing, it just looks like open-outsourcing
on a whole new level.

Nick

On 11/5/10, Jacob Todd jaketodd...@gmail.com wrote:
 Code-in? Could you elaborate?
 On Nov 5, 2010 1:22 PM, EBo e...@sandien.com wrote:
 Google just announced a code-in. Is Plan9 participating?

 EBo --






Re: [9fans] Google code-in?

2010-11-05 Thread Nick LaForge
 i don't think that's accurate.  the tasks need to
 be small enough and easy enough for a 12-17 year old
 student to resonably get one done in a week.  it would be
 much easier to just do these tasks oneself than to even
 write up the task, let alone walk a student through the
 problem-solving process.

Thanks for setting me straight.

Nick



Re: [9fans] JTAG

2010-11-02 Thread Nick LaForge
What a great page!

(I see that it mentions 'urjtag' near the end, which I'd encountered
in trying flash my Altera with an ordinary parallel port.  It has lots
code for many disparate devices in cvs, including mine, the EP2C8.)

Nick

On 11/2/10, Bakul Shah bakul+pl...@bitblocks.com wrote:
 Probably an overkill but this webpage has a lot of useful
 information on JTAG (it might be worth talking to Mark Whitis
 and/or checking out some links on the page for the plan9 JTAG
 effort).

 http://www.freelabs.com/~whitis/electronics/jtag/





Re: [9fans] Preferred ARM platform?

2010-11-02 Thread Nick LaForge
Beagleboard's ethernet hogs the usb bus!  Gumstix has a proper ethernet.

Nick

On 11/2/10, Jacob Todd jaketodd...@gmail.com wrote:
 Iirc, at iwp9 geoff said in so many words that the beagleboard was having
 problems with undocumented..stuff. The video is on livestream.com/iwp9 if
 you want to watch it.




Re: [9fans] What USB audio device are you using?

2010-11-02 Thread Nick LaForge
I got this: 
http://www.amazon.com/Syba-SD-CM-UAUD-Adapter-C-Media-Chipset/dp/B001MSS6CS

Haven't tried too hard to get 9 to use it, but it's usb and linux has
the code too.  Audio quality is high, that is until you plug in a mic
and line-in and line-out signals get mixed.

Btw John, I just got that 'real' 3-button optical logitech-made mouse
from IBM you'd mentioned.  It beats cleaning the gunk out of your old
logitechs (if their buttons even still work).  I've also used the
Evoluent, but I can't tolerate its vertical column of buttons which
don't give you the table's normal force, so you get a cramp.

Nick

On 10/29/10, John Floren slawmas...@gmail.com wrote:
 Here's an open question to anyone using USB audio on Plan 9: What
 device are you using? How well does it work?

 I'm looking for something I can get on Amazon; my T22 has been silent
 long enough!

 John





Re: [9fans] Preferred ARM platform?

2010-11-02 Thread Nick LaForge
 As far as I know, there isn't yet a good, inexpensive, well-documented
 ARM system.

 pick any two!  ;-)

Between two evils, choose neither, between two goods, choose both.
-- Tryon Edwards

A nice quote from a nice book on distributed systems [*]  Need I quote
another distributed systems expert, Jim Choate?  The choice only comes
up if you feel the need to build a PC out of a bunch of Plan9s instead
of a Plan9 out of a bunch of PCs.  Do we really need the thing to do
video?  Although it would be nice.

I punted on this anyway by buying a Startech usb2 vga device.  Now
all I need is dma with a decent usb pipe, and a port of the linux
driver.

[*] Garg, V.  Elements of Distributed Computing

Nick



Re: [9fans] Why not work for a company based on Plan 9?

2010-10-25 Thread Nick LaForge
Sorry.  I really need to throw away this  mobile phone and NOT
accidentally hit send in gmail basic.

On 10/25/10, Nick LaForge nicklafo...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 10/25/10, Joseph Stewart joseph.stew...@gmail.com wrote:
 Dave,

 The way I see this is two reasonable people working a misunderstanding
 out.
 There are many contemporary examples of endless mud-slinging with no real
 concern for solving problems or coming to a reasonable conclusion.

 Regards,

 -joe

 On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 1:38 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Brantley,

 I apologize for my confrontational attitude.  It's totally unnecessary,
 and
 I wish that I could take it all back.

 You certainly didn't deserve it, and the 9fans aren't deserving the
 noise
 I've caused by my stupid approach to this thread.

 Dave

 On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Brantley Coile
 brant...@coraid.comwrote:

 dave,

 no problem.  i didn't cut and paste the answer, but i'm very sorry that
 i
 gave that impression.  i'm a pretty easygoing guy, a fact that isn't
 obvious
 over an email list.  i wasn't irritated by the question at all.  the
 question was a very good one.

 the reason we can't do remote employees is that one of our objectives
 is
 that plan9ers have a positive cultural influence on the entire
 development
 group.  i feel such an influence requires daily interaction.  but we
 will
 keep you in mind as we grow.

 in all my interactions i try to emulate the gentlemanly ways of dennis
 ritchie.
 brantley

 On Oct 25, 2010, at 11:55 AM, David Leimbach wrote:

  Thank you for answering the question.  Let me explain my point of
  view
 on the exchange.
 
  I worked for a company in Birmingham AL for about 6 years from
  Seattle.
  I had Birmingham insurance, Birmingham HR people etc, but I was
 remote.
 I
 thought perhaps it was not clear if one could be a satellite employee
 for
 one of those offices or not.
 
  I felt that when you basically cut and pasted your response to me,
  that
 you were irritated by my question and answering me in a rude way.  I
 was
 not
 trying to troll the thread, but now it may appear to be the opposite.
 
  I have a lot of respect for what you guys have done with Plan 9 and
  AOE,
 and think it's an interesting business, but suddenly I felt that
 perhaps
 I
 wouldn't have a compatible personality with the boss.
 
  Anyway, I'd like to reboot the discussion, but it's in the archives
  now
 :-).
 
  I do wish you, very sincerely, to have continued success with your
 business.
 
  Dave
 
  On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Brantley Coile brant...@coraid.com
 wrote:
  i'm sorry.  those who are not in silicon valley or northeast georgia
 will have to relocate.
 
  On Oct 25, 2010, at 11:30 AM, David Leimbach wrote:
 
   That's actually not an answer but whatever... I guess I don't
   actually
 care.
  
   On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 8:24 AM, Brantley Coile
   brant...@coraid.com
 wrote:
   the positions are in redwood city, ca and athens, ga.
  
   On Oct 25, 2010, at 11:17 AM, David Leimbach wrote:
  
Brantley,
   
I'm asking publicly because I'm betting it's a FAQ.  Do you
consider
 remote employees as a possibility, or do you require relocation?
   
Dave
   
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 7:15 AM, Brantley Coile 
 brant...@coraid.com wrote:
hi guys,
   
as most on this list know, coraid makes storage devices that use
 plan 9 as the software platform.  we also use it as our primary
 development
 environment.  we still run a ken file server here.  plan 9 is
 fundamental
 to
 our vision.  coraid has become a hot silicon valley property and we are
 about to start another round of hiring developers.  i knew it would be
 a
 disservice to this mailing list if i didn't make an announcement here.
   
developers, qa, and support folks can work either in redwood
city,
 ca or athens, ga.  there are the usual up and coming silicon valley
 startup
 stock options.  and in athens, you don't have to pay those silicon
 valley
 prices for housing and beer.  athens is very affordable on both these
 counts, especially the beer as anyone who attended the 2009 iwp9 will
 attest.
   
i hope we're creating a place that i would have wanted to work.
  it's not every place that you can work with plan 9, get paid for it
 and
 participate in a high potential start-up.
   
please send resume's to me.
   
brantley
   
   
   
  
  
  
 
 
 









Re: [9fans] Why not work for a company based on Plan 9?

2010-10-25 Thread Nick LaForge
On 10/25/10, Joseph Stewart joseph.stew...@gmail.com wrote:
 Dave,

 The way I see this is two reasonable people working a misunderstanding out.
 There are many contemporary examples of endless mud-slinging with no real
 concern for solving problems or coming to a reasonable conclusion.

 Regards,

 -joe

 On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 1:38 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote:

 Brantley,

 I apologize for my confrontational attitude.  It's totally unnecessary,
 and
 I wish that I could take it all back.

 You certainly didn't deserve it, and the 9fans aren't deserving the noise
 I've caused by my stupid approach to this thread.

 Dave

 On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Brantley Coile
 brant...@coraid.comwrote:

 dave,

 no problem.  i didn't cut and paste the answer, but i'm very sorry that i
 gave that impression.  i'm a pretty easygoing guy, a fact that isn't
 obvious
 over an email list.  i wasn't irritated by the question at all.  the
 question was a very good one.

 the reason we can't do remote employees is that one of our objectives is
 that plan9ers have a positive cultural influence on the entire
 development
 group.  i feel such an influence requires daily interaction.  but we will
 keep you in mind as we grow.

 in all my interactions i try to emulate the gentlemanly ways of dennis
 ritchie.
 brantley

 On Oct 25, 2010, at 11:55 AM, David Leimbach wrote:

  Thank you for answering the question.  Let me explain my point of view
 on the exchange.
 
  I worked for a company in Birmingham AL for about 6 years from Seattle.
  I had Birmingham insurance, Birmingham HR people etc, but I was remote.
 I
 thought perhaps it was not clear if one could be a satellite employee for
 one of those offices or not.
 
  I felt that when you basically cut and pasted your response to me, that
 you were irritated by my question and answering me in a rude way.  I was
 not
 trying to troll the thread, but now it may appear to be the opposite.
 
  I have a lot of respect for what you guys have done with Plan 9 and
  AOE,
 and think it's an interesting business, but suddenly I felt that perhaps
 I
 wouldn't have a compatible personality with the boss.
 
  Anyway, I'd like to reboot the discussion, but it's in the archives now
 :-).
 
  I do wish you, very sincerely, to have continued success with your
 business.
 
  Dave
 
  On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Brantley Coile brant...@coraid.com
 wrote:
  i'm sorry.  those who are not in silicon valley or northeast georgia
 will have to relocate.
 
  On Oct 25, 2010, at 11:30 AM, David Leimbach wrote:
 
   That's actually not an answer but whatever... I guess I don't
   actually
 care.
  
   On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 8:24 AM, Brantley Coile brant...@coraid.com
 wrote:
   the positions are in redwood city, ca and athens, ga.
  
   On Oct 25, 2010, at 11:17 AM, David Leimbach wrote:
  
Brantley,
   
I'm asking publicly because I'm betting it's a FAQ.  Do you
consider
 remote employees as a possibility, or do you require relocation?
   
Dave
   
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 7:15 AM, Brantley Coile 
 brant...@coraid.com wrote:
hi guys,
   
as most on this list know, coraid makes storage devices that use
 plan 9 as the software platform.  we also use it as our primary
 development
 environment.  we still run a ken file server here.  plan 9 is fundamental
 to
 our vision.  coraid has become a hot silicon valley property and we are
 about to start another round of hiring developers.  i knew it would be a
 disservice to this mailing list if i didn't make an announcement here.
   
developers, qa, and support folks can work either in redwood city,
 ca or athens, ga.  there are the usual up and coming silicon valley
 startup
 stock options.  and in athens, you don't have to pay those silicon valley
 prices for housing and beer.  athens is very affordable on both these
 counts, especially the beer as anyone who attended the 2009 iwp9 will
 attest.
   
i hope we're creating a place that i would have wanted to work.
  it's not every place that you can work with plan 9, get paid for it and
 participate in a high potential start-up.
   
please send resume's to me.
   
brantley
   
   
   
  
  
  
 
 
 








Re: [9fans] So, why Plan 9?

2010-10-11 Thread Nick LaForge
 why anyone should care about Plan 9 anyway

Because: getting things right the first time around is much more of a
practical matter than you may at first realize.

Nick



Re: [9fans] LLVM for plan 9?

2010-08-31 Thread Nick LaForge
Is this a trick to get C++ back on Plan9??


Re: [9fans] LLVM for plan 9?

2010-08-31 Thread Nick LaForge
There's tutorials for doing so from O'Caml

[http://llvm.org/docs/tutorial/]

That looks really neat.  I had watched this*:
[http://vimeo.com/14313378] weeks back, subsequently flipping through
Appel's Modern Compiler Implementation in ML, but ultimately
deciding the book to be too boring.  This, on the other hand, is
pretty inciting.

However, I still couldn't bring myself to deal with an additional
compiler as long as gcc+valgrind+qemu+vx32 continue to work.

I also wouldn't touch LLVM before all the opportunities for synergy
between lunix and Plan9 created by Golang are exhausted, and I think
there are lots of them.  (Is 9Go still unfinished even?)

*Not really recommended because it is too long, though it did turn me
on to the O'Caml language.

 Is this a trick to get C++ back on Plan9??

 was it ever?

(Completely irrelevant to people living in 2010; cfront not guaranteed
against causing brain hemorrhages)

You can see B. Stroustrup's monitor prominently displaying either 8½
or Rio on the back of The Design and Evolution of C++ (©1994 ATT
Bell Labs)...

And: /n/sources/extra/c++.2e.tgz



Re: [9fans] LLVM for plan 9?

2010-08-31 Thread Nick LaForge
oops, s/inciting/enticing/ (not quite the same thing... :-p)



Re: [9fans] naming conventions

2010-06-14 Thread Nick LaForge
Would a phonetic morphology à la the ceePlusPlus of wiki would suffice
for our lexically challenged friends?



Re: [9fans] license situation and OSI

2010-05-26 Thread Nick LaForge
Really there are just two kinds of licenses: ones that allow
relicensing and ones that don't.

BSD-licensed software can't be re-licensed but it doesn't matter,
since the terms are as liberal as could possibly be, and you can just
license your own copyrighted contributions separately.  And,
attempting to apply your new terms to the original work would be
pointless since the original, liberal license is available to all
already.

The Plan 9 license, like the MIT license, and Apache license, simply
is more convenient by allowing re-licensing.

Kinda puts MS and EFF in the same camp.

You mean FSF?



Re: [9fans] Tvx update

2010-05-26 Thread Nick LaForge
I tried it and it is very fast to boot and run.  However, the wrapper
did not copy Tvx-root to my home dir.  Option 2 links to the package
install in /usr/local, but option 1 also links, but to the package
loopback mount in /tmp.  The only files in my home are in the top
directory (the license, etc.).  Writing to the symlinks fails.  And so
does reading utf8 filenames.

Choosing 1 gives this error:

cp: can't preserve ownership of
'/home/tc/Tvx-root/sys/lib/ghostscript' :Operation not permitted

and so on for many more files in /sys, /tmp, and /usr.

Nick



Re: [9fans] Tvx update

2010-05-26 Thread Nick LaForge
sed '43 s/H/L/' Tvx

Why are there TWO ways for cp to follow symlinks?  Why are there
symlinks it all?  (That should do it.)

And, still:

cd /sys/doc
ls | grep 8
8
cd 8
Can't cd 8: '8' file does not exist
cd 8½
Can't cd 8½: '8½' file does not exist
cd 8?
ls 8?.ms
8�.ms
touch 9½
ls 9½
9½

Nick



Re: [9fans] Tvx update

2010-05-26 Thread Nick LaForge
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote:
 Be careful .. did you set up a persistent /home? I'm not sure what you
 have done. There's no substitute at some point for seeing how things
 work at tinycore.org.

Not necessary -- once the install script is fixed to actually follow
the symlink it works on tmpfs home too.

 cd /sys/doc
 ls | grep 8
 8
 cd 8
 Can't cd 8: '8' file does not exist
 cd 8½
 Can't cd 8½: '8½' file does not exist
 cd 8?
 ls 8?.ms
 8�.ms
 touch 9½
 ls 9½
 9½

 That's an interesting problem. I wonder if it is some artifact of the
 use of squashfs. The sam and venti directories are fine.

The sam and venti directories don't have any non-ascii utf-8.  Also,
from the host:
ls sys/doc/?½.ms
8½.ms
ls sys/doc/??½.ms
9ý.ms (The file I touched from 9vx)

So 9vx is misreading utf-8 from the host, and unsurprisingly, it tacks
extra bits on when writing.  This happens on a tmpfs home and on a
persistent ext2 home (I actually didn't test how the HOST interprets
it on ext2 because I got rid of my persistent home.)

sed '43 s/H/L/' Tvx

 Sorry, you lost me.

change /usr/local/bin/Tvx:43 to
cp -LRp /usr/local/Tvx-root/* ${P9}

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:53 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote:
perhaps you could track down the source of the cp flags and change them.

The 'p' flag preserves the dates, although the directories that were
separated (/sys/src and /sys/doc) were touched anyway by the
installer.

 They're not going away I bet, but what are you talking about here?

No, I want symlinks to go away from the universe.  (Bind them in a bag
and drown them in the ocean)



Re: [9fans] Tvx update

2010-05-26 Thread Nick LaForge
 you'll get no argument from me on that score.

 Ok.  I'll remove it in the next version.

I think he was responding to my hyperbolic statement there.  There's
no reason not to use symlinks if we can't bind things anyway.  Your
option 2 just links to the root dir in /usr/local which is just fine
provided the permissions are in place and the /usr/local dir is not
just a bunch of symlinks to individual files in /tmp/tcloop  (actually
the case in my tinycore install, not that I care).  The only problem
with symlinks here wasith your option 1 where cp was making copies of
symlinks instead of original files beacuse you used 'cp -HRp' instead
of 'cp -LRp'.

Nick



Re: [9fans] Tvx update

2010-05-25 Thread Nick LaForge
Amazing.  I have no excuse for not using Linux now.



Re: [9fans] Plan ? (was: native install)

2010-03-30 Thread Nick LaForge
I am utterly depressed that this pedestrian crap can so easily get a
rise out of several 9fans after all these times.



Re: [9fans] Binary format

2010-02-17 Thread Nick LaForge
Enrico Weigelt weig...@metux.de wrote:
 And another important feature of shared libraries is, that when
 some lib is updated, importing programs dont have to be recompiled.

Enrico Weigelt weig...@metux.de wrote:
 Actually, that's just a matter of clean dependency handling.
 Include an API/ABI version in the filename, etc.

Why create single points of failure?  The complexity to justify
creating a bureaucracy delegating responsibility of libraries to
different people is not there in Plan9.  The libraries are for
convenience and orthogonality; they are not the definitive API.  That
is defined by the kernel and by 9P.  They really are the black boxes.
And shouldn't you be inspecting any new code paths when using new
code?  Why assume the library writer has tested against YOUR code in
all paths, and bump to the new version, risking regression?

This to me seems insane for production environments, and is all too
common in the open source world where people seem to be writing new
code for it's own sake and to everyone's detriment.

A nice benefit of taking the simple route early on is that it becomes
easier down the road to implement the functionality in one fell swoop,
top-down.  Maybe in the future the kernel could remove redundant code.
 9vx and it's ilk already do something somewhat orthogonal to this by
executing code that is shorter after it's been dynamically re-written.



Re: [9fans] Coraid funded

2010-01-30 Thread Nick LaForge
Congratulations on this exciting news!

-- A 9fan grateful for the public benefit already generated from
Coraid's technology and code.



Re: [9fans] [Announce] CorTeX: the core of TeX

2009-12-19 Thread Nick LaForge
On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 7:32 AM,  tlaro...@polynum.com wrote:
 OK.

 The good news---since I have continued to work a little on this while I
 have more urgent things to do---is that it is absolutely _simple_ to
 restart from this (the original web2c)... I don't know if the road of
 hell is paved with good intentions; but it's clear that the software
 highways of hells are organised by GPL communities...


Good morning,

I had read this as 'gpl communists', but since my eyes have now fully
opened I needn't any longer employ my perverse imagination to read
ahead.

Nick



Re: [9fans] Practical issue on using rc shell

2009-11-13 Thread Nick LaForge
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:46 PM, pmarin pacog...@gmail.com wrote:
 Fortu

 fortunately, the unix world is less radical, you can use rlfe
 http://per.bothner.com/software/

 pmarin

fortunately, plan9 includes a c compiler

Nick



Re: [9fans] Go

2009-11-12 Thread Nick LaForge
 To some extent -- that's the reason I'm asking my VM question. I think any
 non-trivial runtime is VM envy.

I take this as a desire to make use of simpler high level constructs
at the level of bytecodes.

Please do pardon me for the gratuitous presumptions of the author's
intentions in what follows.

It seems plain to me that they are confident that a traditional
machine, orthogonal to processors on the market, is and will be the
definitive interface to the hardware in the greatest number of cases,
and that MANY simplifications reaped from a consistent use of high
level constructs can be had ex-post, i.e., from the compiler.

(Interestingly enough, the future could hold for us a situation where
the definitive interface to the hardware is reconfigurable logic,
which, with present tools, pose complex enough a problem that it could
make sense to simply implement some arbitrary machine.  When that day
comes or draws near, I guess that brucee would like to hear from you.)

 Besides with JIT like capabilities you can
 actually run faster in a VM setting.

To effect, the same phenomenon has been observed, in, for example,
[http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/papers/vx32:usenix08-abs.html].

Nick

P.S.:  Perhaps some 9fans of the SF Bay Area would like to hash out in
person some of the details this fuzzy message sorely lacks, regarding
perhaps the implications for Plan9 at large in light of recent
developments?  I understand that many of us are still reeling, and it
is best to shut up and calculate, but in the somewhat near future it
could be good to coordinate to avoid duplicated efforts.  For now it
suffices to point out as an example, that the first one to write an
acme in Go could see their code eventually reach more people than one
potentially realizes.  I dare not attempt such a task myself, lest I
propagate my crap code.☺



[9fans] Go

2009-11-11 Thread Nick LaForge
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 7:20 AM, Roman V Shaposhnik r...@sun.com wrote:

 Personally I think you'd be better off exploring a connection that a
 language called Lua has to C. In the immortal words of Casablanca it
 just could be the begging of a beautiful friendship.

Well, it was nice while it lasted.

Nick



Re: [9fans] Barrelfish

2009-10-16 Thread Nick LaForge
 maybe the Ken quote is false too - hard to believe he's that out of touch

The whole table was ganging up on Roman and his crazy idea, I believe
;).  The objection mostly was to Intel dumping the complexity of
another core on the programmer after it ran out of steam in containing
parallelism within the pipeline.

Even though Inferno / CSP / Erlang / etc. type people were clearly
anxious to make use of parallelism at the level of multiple processor
cores, I don't think the average Java programmer was.

(That's not to say that Java programmers hadn't been asking for a rude
awakening.  Perhaps someday, they will also learn what
'Object-Oriented' programming is. ☺)

Nick



Re: [9fans] Simplified Chinese plan 9

2009-09-12 Thread Nick LaForge
PLEASE ERIS!!  Your cerebral core-dumps are making me claustrophobic!



Re: [9fans] Intel atom motherboard - success at last

2009-08-06 Thread Nick LaForge
 This one still has a fan. Is there anything decent *and* fanless out
 there?

 Thanks,
 Roman.

Intel's 'netbook' platform (no amd64) -- fanless, uses a 12V DC brick
-- for mini-itx:

http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/D945GSEJT/D945GSEJT-overview.htm

Nick



Re: [9fans] my ts7200 port

2009-07-07 Thread Nick LaForge
 unfortunately x86 cannot be beat, if the object of the game is 
 price/performance

the object of the game is price and power.  Performance doesn't
factor, notwithstanding that the terminal must drive 1024x768 vga.

Nick



Re: [9fans] my ts7200 port

2009-07-06 Thread Nick LaForge
 found what is likely the latest version lying on my laptop from over
 two years ago and dumped it in
 sources in ts7200.tar

 I got excited by the beagleboard again ...

 ron

Thank you for remembering to find this, it will be of great help to me!

Nick



Re: [9fans] my ts7200 port

2009-07-06 Thread Nick LaForge
 Thank you for remembering to find this, it will be of great help to me!

 which board/cpu are you targeting? I really like that beagleboard.

 ron

The TS-7200 Technologic board, the exact board in your port, I
believe.  The intent is to use it to netboot other machines.

Also of interest is the Technologic TS-7500,

http://www.embeddedarm.com/products/board-detail.php?product=TS-7500

for a wifi point that can serve a HDD, and also wake up an attached
larger machine and then attach itself as a usb device.  (The machine
has slave usb in addition to the host usb.)

Thank you for the Beagleboard information.  I have a need for driving
a small vga lcd with a low-power arm board.  The intent is to replace
my ailing terminal, a thinkpad 600e.  I had previously assumed the
latest Gumstix board would serve this purpose, I believe which is more
expensive.

Nick



Re: [9fans] Cheap Native Plan9 ARM board?

2008-12-23 Thread Nick LaForge
 http://www.glomationinc.com/

i have adopted the 'technologic ts-7200':

http://www.embeddedarm.com/products/board-detail.php?product=TS-7200

it runs netbsd, i have not started any plan9 work

nkl



Re: [9fans] How can I boot plan9 on my Compaq AlphaServer DS10L?

2008-12-18 Thread Nick LaForge
  I wouldn't usually do this, as I know this isn't e-bay, :) but since access 
 to non-x86 hardware is being discussed...

seeing that gumstix has been mentioned...

sitting on my desk is an assembled gumstix (no chassis) that had been
intended to be my wearable plan9 terminal.

my idea was to run several full framebuffers that could be panned on
the touchscreen and displayed on the touchscreen itself or some other
screen on the network.  Maybe switching framebuffers by tapping, and
wearing the keyboard on the body.

i haven't touched it.  Perhaps somebody here can make use of it before
I get around to doing this:

1 x gumstix verdex XL6P (GS270-XL6P)
1 x consoleLCD16-vx (PKG10016)
1 x netCF-vx (PKG10035)
1 x Samsung™ 4.3 LCD panel (LTE430WQF0)

(plus various cables and ac power unit for testing)

nkl


Re: [9fans] acer aspire one

2008-12-12 Thread Nick LaForge
 just looks like a good thing to run the bunny on. i don't have time to
 look into it now.

 brucee

is the keyboard horrendous?

nkl



Re: [9fans] xml2 and APE

2008-11-25 Thread Nick LaForge
hello,

interfacing external languages should not often be hard, especially by
defining a relevent language subset.

i don't understand, though, why your external language 'xml' need now
be part of your application?

thanks,
nkl



Re: [9fans] read/write offset hack

2008-05-30 Thread Nick LaForge
 Poking around Plan 9 and 9P, I was wondering whether it would be a
 neat hack or some sort of abuse to read and write dynamically served
 files at different offsets to get different semantics, instead of
 reading and writing different files (ctl, clone, etc.) to do that.

 Given that the system encourages to perceive files as having arbitrary
 semantics (as opposed to having regular sequential file semantics) it
 would make sense (to me) to have reads and writes at arbitrary offsets
 to have arbitrary semantics as well -- that's, after all, what offset
 (kind of) does on a regular file, too, although in a rather trivial
 way.

 ...but my spider-sense is telling me this would probably be either
 rather pointless, or troublesome, or prohibited. Please set me
 straight.

this is excellent!  The only thing you need now is a new name to mark
the address of the new block, a mechanism to seek to this address,
and an interface to standard I/O such that writes append to the block's
end.

nkl



Re: [9fans] read/write offset hack

2008-05-30 Thread Nick LaForge
 we haven't got a task force to rip
 keyboards from careless hands

this is excellent!

 but Nick LaForge reminds us we can use more effective methods

   Vercotti: Doug (takes a drink) Well, I was terrified.
   Everyone was terrified of Doug.  I've seen grown men pull
   their own heads off rather than see Doug.  Even Dinsdale was
   frightened of Doug.

   2nd Interviewer: What did he do?

   Vercotti: He used...  sarcasm.  He knew all the tricks,
   dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, parody, litotes and...
   satire.  He was vicious.

my apologies. :)

Nyang: I must say one thing: you are simply going to LOVE an
abomination of an acme feature i am working on!