[abcusers] re re : slurs and ties
It is just simply incorrect to not make the normal distinction between ties and slurs in any form of musical notation (which does include ABC), and, worst of all, ultimately confusing to users if improper usage is allowed. Ties and slurs are not the same thing, nor are they intended to be, nor were they ever intended to be so far as I know. To not make the correct distinction is just simply unnecessary, in my opinion, and will continue to promote sloppy, or lazy, or ignorant, or individualistic, or non-standard, or what ever you want to call it, practices in writing ABC. we can draw a parallel with the : in fact we don't need this symbol, instead of A A there is the A3/2 A/ notation but it's simplier to use. I don't think people, like me or John Chamber, who want in this case a more tolerant standard wish to confuse pple with the notions of slurs and ties. For example B and G *can't* (physically, in acoustic) be tied, can they ? So we could say this is just a convention to notate slur *both* with - and (). That doesn't mean slurs becomes ties. And a last remark : in french we only use one word for the two : it is called liaison, we would not confuse the two. But I've just read in a musical theory that there was a difference of interpretation for slurs according as the slur concerns only two notes, or several notes : it is said for two slured notes which are at a different length, the 1st one should be emphasized, i.e. : (c2B) z/ d/ (d2c) z/e/ | (e2d) /.../ so it's not so illogical to use - to write a slur/tie (liaison) between 2 notes (whatever they are and whatever that particular slur/tie means) and brackets for slur between several notes (more than 2 at least). For ties between more than 2 notes like A3-A2-|A2 I don't find it really logical to allow (A3 A2 |A2), but why not ? ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F F (and F F2) problems
Frank Nordberg wrote: I've been trying to find a piece of music where FF2 actually would make sense. In the end I had to write one myself. Except for the V: header fields - which are idiomatic for BarFly - this should be pretty straight forward ABC. There are a few nasty little details here, though, so maybe it'd be suitable as a test tune for an abc parser. ;-) Ooh that's dirty! Ties across metre changes, across into and out of broken rhythm pairs, broken rhythms used as part of triplets... And it actually works as a piece of music too. Might I suggest An Evil Grin as a title? Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] re re : slurs and ties
Forgeot=20Eric?= [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | It is just simply | incorrect to not make the normal distinction between ties and | slurs in any | form of musical notation (which does include ABC), and, worst of | all, | ultimately confusing to users if improper usage is allowed. ... | I don't think people, like me or John Chamber, who want in this | case a more tolerant standard wish to confuse pple with the | notions of slurs and ties. In fact, we can't confuse people; they are already confused. The simple fact is that conventional printed music notation doesn't make a real distinction. True, some publishers claim to draw those arcs slightly differently. But different publishers use different rules. And simple examination of a stack of published music will quickly convince you that most of them have such poor quality control that any claimed differences are wiped out in the printing process. All you can really say with accuracy is that printed music uses arcs that connect groups of two or more notes, and these arcs mean different things in different circumstances. Any differences in how they are drawn are mostly accidental artifacts of the printing process, and are best ignored unless you *know* that a particular edition is using those differences consistently. | And a last remark : in french we only use one word for the two : | it is called liaison, we would not confuse the two. It's even worse than that, of course. Those arcs are used for at least three things in conventional music. In English, we call them ties, slurs and phrases. I haven't yet read any complaints about people using () in abc to indicate such things as bowing/breathing, but I suppose I will eventually. Printed music notates this exactly the same way as it does phrasing. The only difference is the length of the group of notes, so it always requires musical judgement to distinguish slurs from phrases. | ... For ties between more than 2 notes like | A3-A2-|A2 I don't find it really logical to allow (A3 A2 |A2), but | why not ? I've seen this, but it's rare. I think most printers and publishers have at least managed to get this one right. ;-) In any case, if we want musicians to get such things right in abc, we really should have distinct ways of representing ALL of the uses of arcs in printed music. Conflating slurs with phrases, while distinguishing ties, is guaranteed to just add to user confusion. Is there a fourth use of these arcs that I haven't listed? (Hey. Laura; does LilyPond distinguish all these? Just curious.) To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] re re : slurs and ties
John == John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John (Hey. Laura; does LilyPond distinguish all these? Just curious.) Yes: Tie: a ~ a slur: a () a phrasing slur: a \(\) a The documentation says: Typographically, the phrasing slur behaves almost exactly like a normal slur. The grob associated with it is PhrasingSlur , in Voice context. So the main difference between a slur and a phrasing slur is that there is a different grob, so that you can make all phrasing slurs dotted or invisible while leaving regular slurs alone, or vice versa. And: A tie connects two adjacent note heads of the same pitch. When used with chords, it connects all the note heads whose pitches match. Ties are indicated using the tilde symbol `~'. If you try to tie together chords which have no common pitches then no ties will be created. -- Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ ) (617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139 (If I haven't invited you to my party on June 2, I'm sure it's an oversight.) To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F F (and F F2) problems
Phil Taylor wrote: Ooh that's dirty! Ties across metre changes, across into and out of broken rhythm pairs, broken rhythms used as part of triplets... Well, the general idea was to cover as many problems with the , ties, slurs and triplet brackets as possible. And then I just threw in the global accidental gimmick just to make the matter even worse. And it actually works as a piece of music too. Thanks :-) But I've got this bad feeling that's only true if you use BarFly I was rather shocked I saw and heard the output from abc2ps and abc2midi. I mean, for all it's weirdness, it's just plain abc, and though I did expect some problems, I definitely didn't expect two such prominent abc applications to come up with sheer gibberish. I really wonder what the results from other abc applications are. In case anybody want to compare, I've posted BarFly's output at: http://www.musicaviva.com/abc/turkish-spam.mid and: http://www.musicaviva.com/abc/turkish-spam.gif It's a slightly longer version than the one I posted at the list. The new abc can be found at: http://www.musicaviva.com/abc/turkish-spam.abc Might I suggest An Evil Grin as a title? That's a good one, but since the tune's got some vague oriental feel and since it's supposed to comment on recent events at abcusers, I though maybe Turkish Spam would be better... Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F F (and F F2) problems
Frank asked I really wonder what the results from other abc applications are. Well, (deep breath) Muse didn't like it a lot. It generates a bug report saying ABC ties don't match Muse ties. Please report this bug to me. That is one of quite a learge number of messages in Muse that are never supposed to appear (Assertions in the jargon), so in other words it broke Muse. Muse also produced many complaints (the listing below only works with a fixed space font) in which it in effect reported its own limitations without being broken. I think Evil Grin would be just fine as a title. T:none C:Frank Nordberg V:1 program 1 64 V:2 program 1 25 transpose -12 M:10/16 L:1/8 Q:5/16=100 K:Flyd _G ^ Unknown symbol in K: field V:1 zz2 zz2|:zz2 zz2|FF2 F2F|GFE/ F3/-F/B/-| V:2 .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|:.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ ^ Cannot tie across a Repeat control. (Muse restriction - tie deleted.) .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)| % V:1 BAG FE/F/|GG2 G2G|ABG/ FAD/|[1((3C/D/CB,- B,)z2:| V:2 .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|[1.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/):| % V:1 [2((3C/D/CB,- B,)(F/G//A//B//||c3/-c- c3/-c)|(cdcAB)|c3/-c- c3/-c| V:2 [2.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)||.G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|\ .G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|.G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)| % V:1 (cdcAB)|d(c/(3d/c/B/ A-A2-|[M:5/16]A (3FD/C/|[M:10/16]B,DC/ ^ Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol :5/16]A (3FD/C/|[M:10/16]B,DC/ ^ Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol 5/16]A (3FD/C/|[M:10/16]B,DC/ ^ Cannot tie across a Repeat control. (Muse restriction - tie deleted.) ^ Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol 6]A (3FD/C/|[M:10/16]B,DC/ ^ Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol :10/16]B,DC/ ^ Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol 0/16]B,DC/ ^ Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol 6]B,DC/ B,3/-B,-|B,)z2 zz2|| V:2 .G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|.G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|\ [M:5/16].G,G/(C/B,/)|[M:10/16].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ ^ Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol :5/16].G,G/(C/B,/)|[M:10/16].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ ^ Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol 5/16].G,G/(C/B,/)|[M:10/16].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ ^ Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol 6].G,G/(C/B,/)|[M:10/16].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ ^ Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol :10/16].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ ^ Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol 0/16].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ ^ Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol 6].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)| To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Translation of ABC standards
I'd like to make a Brazilian Portuguese translation of the ABC Standards v1.6 and v1.7.6 (Draft Revised) to post in a site. Should I request someone a licence or is it free to do so? The original documents at the ABC Home Page carry no copyright message about this. Notwithstanding their being signed by Chris Walshaw, in the HP he asks to post questions on ABC to this list, not to his mail, so I hope someone here might clarify this for me. TIA, Paulo E. Tibúrcio To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] re re : slurs and ties
At 12:36 PM 5/30/02, John Chambers wrote: Snip... In fact, we can't confuse people; they are already confused. With all respect, it serves no one to contribute to this confusion by treating things the same that are in all respects different, that is, different in the 'language of music'. More snipping... All you can really say with accuracy is that printed music uses arcs that connect groups of two or more notes, and these arcs mean different things in different circumstances. This is indeed the real world, and the central issue of my original comments. Still more sniping... In any case, if we want musicians to get such things right in abc, we really should have distinct ways of representing ALL of the uses of arcs in printed music. Now this sounds like a plan... (I hope). :-) You guys take care and keep up the very good work, Don Huntsville, AL To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F F (and F F2) problems
On Thu, 2002-05-30 at 16:11, Frank Nordberg wrote: I really wonder what the results from other abc applications are. For what it's worth, abcm2ps 2.10.9 (February 10, 2002) didn't have any problem with it apart from the global accidentals, which it gave one warning about (Unknown token in key specifier in line 9.10). So, it didn't print any G flats, but it printed everything else just fine. There was one additional error it gave: Cannot handle note length for note, with no line number given. I'm not sure where this error occurred, since the output looked fine. It usually means that there's some odd duration like C5 that it can't resolve into a single notehead. I can post a PDF (23K) or PostScript (43K) file containing the output if anyone's interested. - Eric To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
