Re: [abcusers] Accented characters in lyrics (abc2ps)
From: "Guido Gonzato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > and many others. A more complete list will be available in the upcoming > ABC 2.0.0 draft. On that topic, let me add that the jump from 1.6 to 2 (rather than 1.7) seems well merited by the introduction of parallel voices, which is a very big improvement in capability. Dave David Webber Author of MOZART the music processor for Windows - http://www.mozart.co.uk Member of the North Cheshire Concert Band http://www.northcheshire.org.uk To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Accented characters in lyrics (abc2ps)
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, I. Oppenheim wrote: > This should also be addressed in the upcomming ABC > standard... I have already written a paragraph about it. > To use accented letter, type the following: > \`a => "a with grave" > \'a => "a with acute" > \"a => "a with umlaut" > \^o => "o with circumflex" > \~n => "n with tilde" > \,c => "c with cedilla" and many others. A more complete list will be available in the upcoming ABC 2.0.0 draft. Later, Guido =8-) -- Guido Gonzato, Ph.D. - Linux System Manager Universita' di Verona (Italy), Facolta' di Scienze MM. FF. NN. Ca' Vignal II, Strada Le Grazie 15, 37134 Verona (Italy) Tel. +39 045 8027990; Fax +39 045 8027928 --- Timeas hominem unius libri To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC 1.7 standard?
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, I. Oppenheim wrote: > I agree entirely. > Jef and Guido, are you willing to take this noble task > upon you? > I vote for you! I (Guido) agree. It's a sweet burden... Later, Guido =8-) -- Guido Gonzato, Ph.D. - Linux System Manager Universita' di Verona (Italy), Facolta' di Scienze MM. FF. NN. Ca' Vignal II, Strada Le Grazie 15, 37134 Verona (Italy) Tel. +39 045 8027990; Fax +39 045 8027928 --- Timeas hominem unius libri To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC 1.7 standard?
> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 00:27:36 +0100 > From: Bernard Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, John Chambers > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >Bernard Hill writes: > >| In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Henrik > >| Norbeck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >| >There was a "standards committee" (or some similar name) > >| >some years ago. Don't remember who was on it, but I think it > >| >should be revived, with a chairman/leader. > >| > >| Just one comment: having a software developer in charge of standards is > >| a conflict of interests. S/he can drive the standard in the direction of > >| his/her own software. > > > >Yeah, and I'd like to add that we also shouldn't have a musician in > >charge of the standard, since s/he can drive the standard in the > >direction of his/her own favorite musical styles. > > > >;-) > > A reasonable point actually. Eg The needs of Scottish Pipers and Choral > writers might lead the standard in incompatible directions. > > > >(Actually, there's an important reason that programmers should at > >least be consulted regularly. There is a history of computer standard > >committees developing standards that can't be implemented. It would > >be good to avoid this.) Agreed on all counts. I think the comment about musicians was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. On the other hand, I'm sure most people would agree that the standards committee standard *must* include programmers and musicians, since nearly all of the people who will ever do anything with ABC fall into one or both categories. I don't think we need to (or even can) avoid any possibility of conflict of interest. I do think the people on the committee need to be appropriately considerate of the ways in which other people use ABC, but there are several developers and musicians on this list whom I'd trust to be appropriately impartial in that regard. Jeff To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC 1.7 standard?
Bernard Hill writes: | In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, John Chambers | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes | >Bernard Hill writes: | >| Just one comment: having a software developer in charge of standards is | >| a conflict of interests. S/he can drive the standard in the direction of | >| his/her own software. | > | >Yeah, and I'd like to add that we also shouldn't have a musician in | >charge of the standard, since s/he can drive the standard in the | >direction of his/her own favorite musical styles. | > | >;-) | | A reasonable point actually. Eg The needs of Scottish Pipers and Choral | writers might lead the standard in incompatible directions. What I'd argue is that we should have both pipers and choral singers involved, so that we don't make any decisions that exclude eithers' needs. And orchestral, keyboard and Persian musicians. I suspect that abc can be extended to handle most kinds of music. But it will take more than just deciding to make a standard. It will require participation of musicians from a variety of styles. I'll personally be disappointed if we restrict abc to just the needs of Western music. | >(Actually, there's an important reason that programmers should at | >least be consulted regularly. There is a history of computer standard | >committees developing standards that can't be implemented. It would | >be good to avoid this.) | | That's fair enough. Yeah; I've been involved with implemening to standards that can't be implemented. It's not much fun. ;-) To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Accented characters in lyrics (abc2ps)
Manuel Reiter wrote: ... but I'd very much appreciate a list of all (or most ;-) ) available accents. Go to http://www.musicaviva.com/abc/abcyclopedia/view.tpl?kw=Special%20characters (that URL is so long it may be broken up by some email client - if so, copy and paste - or you can go to http://www.musicaviva.com/abc/abcyclopedia/index.tpl and select "S" and then "Special characters") Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC 1.7 standard?
Well, I'll poke my nose in... When we decided to start folkinfo, we decided to use abc and lyrics using the w:. The biggest problems we encountered was learning that the 1.7 thing is a draft and that there is no standard for the words. It also came as a shock to learn that what could work with abcm2ps, may look different with abc2ps, etc. >From my side, I really wish there was a standard that we could say all current, actively developed programs work to (I've no objection to considering some abc software obsolete). It really does seem to be a nonsense carefully alligning words or doing something else to get reasonable output from our system only to find that some other system will do things in other ways. We are only small fry but it could even be (assuming they could be persuaded out of songwrite and MIDI) that Mudcat/ the dt would consider abc if standardisation was improved. There is an abc version of the dt in the pipeline btw - but which programs will it look right with? I don't know the aims of those developing abc but it surely stands a greater chance of success and adoption if end users were more certain of consistant results. I'd also have concerns about what I see as the develpoment style of J Moine and that being used to set the standard. The worry there is not that he's not good (he's fantastic IMO) but the pace he moves at and that rather than carefuly considering say 1.8, perhaps with trial betas, we could wind up with 1.71 becoming semi-official, etc, still no conformity and people like myself not really having a clue what to use... Jon - Original Message - From: "Bert Van Vreckem" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [abcusers] ABC 1.7 standard? > I. Oppenheim wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, John Chambers wrote: > > > >>| Cool. Thanks. First I'd heard. No mention of it on Chris's web > >>| site (still refers to it as draft and 1.6 as current). > >> > >>Maybe we should discuss labelling it the 1.7 standard? > > I don't post a lot to the list, but I can't let this pass without giving > you my two cents... > > What the abc 'movement' needs is someone who takes responsibility over > the standard. Ever since Chris stopped active participation, a lot of > very good extensions to the standard have been made, but because there > is no real leader, these changes remain, well, apocryphal. > > I'm sure that Chris would be delighted to know that the standards is > back in good hands. > > Personally, I would propose Jef Moine and Guido Gonzato: Jef because > he's the developer of the (TMHO) leading abc package, Guido Gonzato > because of his vision and his dedication. > > What do you all think? Does the abc project need a 'manager' that is > responsible for the standard? Who would be a good candidate? Would you > yourself be candidate? > > Cheers, > > bert > > -- > Bert Van Vreckem > > Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and > oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital > ingredient in beer. -- Dave Barry > > To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Accented characters in lyrics (abc2ps)
Bernard Hill commented: | In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, I. Oppenheim | >To use accented letter, type the following: | >\`a => "a with grave" | >\'a => "a with acute" | >\"a => "a with umlaut" | >\^o => "o with circumflex" | >\~n => "n with tilde" | >\,c => "c with cedilla" | > | | What's wrong with simply putting the correct accent in the text? | | à á ä ô ñ ç | | They're all part of the extended character set, and pretty much a | standard these days. Yeah; I've done that in a few tunes. The problem is that it only works for people with 8859-1 (Latin-1) software. It'll look really funny to someone in, say, Poland or Thailand. It also leads to complaints from a lot of Americans using Windows, whose software can do some rather imaginitive things with such characters. We've had a few mentions of this problem in the past, but no really good solutions. Putting your abc in unicode form would help a lot, but most people wouldn't know how to do this, and unicode support is still far from universal. A problem I keep coming up with: I have a lot of music with lyrics in several languages. Most of the gimmicks for saying what character set you're using are on a whole-file basis. But what I'd like to do is mix English, Finnish, Russian and Yiddish text in the same tune. I wonder if we can come up with a simple scheme for doing this in abc? To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Accented characters in lyrics (abc2ps)
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Alice Corbin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >I just plop the characters i want in the abc file, like, for example: > > z D E | G2 G G2 F | E2 E z F G | A2 G (FE) D | F2 E >w: vê- o et por- que jus- ti- ça tê- en d'el et de-* rei- tu-ta, > >I use jcabc2ps to render the file, but any program should be able to >handle this. > >(Actually getting the characters into the abc file is dependent on >which editor you're using. Sometimes it's easiest to bring up a >web page or document with the accented characters and cut and paste >them into your file. Oh, and it helps to use a font that can actually >display them.) On a PC keyboard you can use the alt key, eg à is alt+0224 and á is Ctrl+alt+a. Have a look at Character Map (Start>Programs>Accessories>System Tools>Character Map) for the correct sequences. Or install dual-language support. > Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Accented characters in lyrics (abc2ps)
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, I. Oppenheim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Manuel Reiter wrote: > >> could anybody give me any pointers aon how to include >> accented characters in lyrics with abc2ps > >This should also be addressed in the upcomming ABC >standard... > >To use accented letter, type the following: >\`a => "a with grave" >\'a => "a with acute" >\"a => "a with umlaut" >\^o => "o with circumflex" >\~n => "n with tilde" >\,c => "c with cedilla" > What's wrong with simply putting the correct accent in the text? à á ä ô ñ ç They're all part of the extended character set, and pretty much a standard these days. Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC 1.7 standard?
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, John Chambers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Bernard Hill writes: >| In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Henrik >| Norbeck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >| >There was a "standards committee" (or some similar name) >| >some years ago. Don't remember who was on it, but I think it >| >should be revived, with a chairman/leader. >| >| Just one comment: having a software developer in charge of standards is >| a conflict of interests. S/he can drive the standard in the direction of >| his/her own software. > >Yeah, and I'd like to add that we also shouldn't have a musician in >charge of the standard, since s/he can drive the standard in the >direction of his/her own favorite musical styles. > >;-) A reasonable point actually. Eg The needs of Scottish Pipers and Choral writers might lead the standard in incompatible directions. > > >(Actually, there's an important reason that programmers should at >least be consulted regularly. There is a history of computer standard >committees developing standards that can't be implemented. It would >be good to avoid this.) > That's fair enough. Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Accented characters in lyrics (abc2ps)
I just plop the characters i want in the abc file, like, for example: z D E | G2 G G2 F | E2 E z F G | A2 G (FE) D | F2 E w: vê- o et por- que jus- ti- ça tê- en d'el et de-* rei- tu-ta, I use jcabc2ps to render the file, but any program should be able to handle this. (Actually getting the characters into the abc file is dependent on which editor you're using. Sometimes it's easiest to bring up a web page or document with the accented characters and cut and paste them into your file. Oh, and it helps to use a font that can actually display them.) I once tried to use a abc2ps clone that did some special processing on single quotes, turning them and the nearby vowels into special chararcters. It really screwed up the lyrics, though, since I was working with French lyrics, which are full of real apostophes. Ali On Tue, Jul 01, 2003 at 12:37:33AM +0200, Manuel Reiter wrote: > Hi, > > could anybody give me any pointers aon how to include accented characters > in lyrics with abc2ps or any of its clones? I didnt find anything in the > current of drafted abc standards or in the abc2ps documentation. > > I have a file (found somewhere on the net) which includes "\'e" and > produces an accent aigu in abc2ps, but I'd very much appreciate a list of > all (or most ;-) ) available accents. > > Thanks in advance, > > Manuel > > To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: > http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html -- _ _ Ali Corbin/, |_ __(_) ___ _ __ Axian, Inc. //| |\\/ /| |/ _ \| '_ \ Phone: (503)644-6106 #205 _//_| | / / | | |_| | | | | e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (( // |_|/_/\\|_|\_/|_|_| |_| http://www.axian.com/ ``-'' ``-'' To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Accented characters in lyrics (abc2ps)
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Manuel Reiter wrote: > could anybody give me any pointers aon how to include > accented characters in lyrics with abc2ps This should also be addressed in the upcomming ABC standard... To use accented letter, type the following: \`a => "a with grave" \'a => "a with acute" \"a => "a with umlaut" \^o => "o with circumflex" \~n => "n with tilde" \,c => "c with cedilla" Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Accented characters in lyrics (abc2ps)
Hi, could anybody give me any pointers aon how to include accented characters in lyrics with abc2ps or any of its clones? I didnt find anything in the current of drafted abc standards or in the abc2ps documentation. I have a file (found somewhere on the net) which includes "\'e" and produces an accent aigu in abc2ps, but I'd very much appreciate a list of all (or most ;-) ) available accents. Thanks in advance, Manuel To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC 1.7 standard?
Bernard Hill writes: | In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Henrik | Norbeck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes | >There was a "standards committee" (or some similar name) | >some years ago. Don't remember who was on it, but I think it | >should be revived, with a chairman/leader. | | Just one comment: having a software developer in charge of standards is | a conflict of interests. S/he can drive the standard in the direction of | his/her own software. Yeah, and I'd like to add that we also shouldn't have a musician in charge of the standard, since s/he can drive the standard in the direction of his/her own favorite musical styles. ;-) (Actually, there's an important reason that programmers should at least be consulted regularly. There is a history of computer standard committees developing standards that can't be implemented. It would be good to avoid this.) To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC 1.7 standard?
Bert Van Vreckem writes: | I. Oppenheim wrote: | > On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, John Chambers wrote: | >>| Cool. Thanks. First I'd heard. No mention of it on Chris's web | >>| site (still refers to it as draft and 1.6 as current). | >> | >>Maybe we should discuss labelling it the 1.7 standard? | | I don't post a lot to the list, but I can't let this pass without giving | you my two cents... | | What the abc 'movement' needs is someone who takes responsibility over | the standard. Ever since Chris stopped active participation, a lot of | very good extensions to the standard have been made, but because there | is no real leader, these changes remain, well, apocryphal. ... | Personally, I would propose Jef Moine and Guido Gonzato: Jef because | he's the developer of the (TMHO) leading abc package, Guido Gonzato | because of his vision and his dedication. | | What do you all think? Does the abc project need a 'manager' that is | responsible for the standard? Who would be a good candidate? Would you | yourself be candidate? A couple of years ago, I gave a bit of thought to playing "Capture the Standard", and took part in the attempt at an official standards committee. But I think I understand why it fizzled, and why a new effort now may not be a lot more effective. A fundamental problem is something I see all the time with my tune finder, because it has to deal with all the abc that is on the web. We have several cases, most notably abc2win, that contain gratuitous violations of even the current rather minimal 1.6 standard. After many years, these haven't been fixed, and I don't expect they will ever be fixed. In these cases, there isn't even a "functionality" argument; it's more like "I implemented it that way, and it works for me, so I don't see any reason to change it. Given the nature of musicians, this is what I'd expect. Look at "standard" staff notation for lots of examples of the same situation. OTOH, I've found it interesting that developers who have implemented extensions to abc have pretty much done so in a highly-compatible fashion. There are amazingly few actual conflicts, in which two tools use the same notation with different meanings. The only real examples are the different default ornaments (e.g., H). But that's trivial, and can be handled with a simple U: definition. (Or can if we can get this implemented widely. ;-) Both of these argue against any real significance to a standard. Some implementers don't care about following standards, and won't change their code to match a new (or old) standard. Other implementers want to do things outside the standard, and show a history of discussing ideas openly and avoiding conflicts. In both cases, a standard is not particularly helpful. Then there's my own favorite radical proposal, the one for explicit key signatures. We've had a number of discussions of this. Various people have picked up my jcabc2ps clone that implements one idea. They've found it useful, and it seems to cause no problems with other music. The idea is even in the 1.6 standard, but in a subtly wrong form: It says that the explicit accidentals are to be drawn before the notes in the music. They should be drawn at the start of the staff, of course, like all key signatures are. (If a tool could sprinkle either the specific accidentals or all the key signature through the music, I would have a few uses for this. But this should not be the default.) In this case, a very slight rewording of a 1.6 paragraph would do the job. You'd think it would have happened, since we've discussed it, and several suggested wordings were proposed. But the various proposed standards so far have ignored this and just copied the 1.6 wording. This is discouraging. There have been several other topics discussed that have disappeared in the same fashion. In all cases, of course, they are of interest to a somewhat small number of current abc users. But this is to be expected, since anyone who needs them is not going to be much of an abc user right now. We recently had a brief discussion of some notation for traditional Persian music. Though I don't play that myself, I do have a number of recordings, and I found the discussion interesting. I'd be more tempted to take a new abc standard seriously if there were signs that the abc user community were taking such things seriously. If not, I'd expect that we'll just keep plodding along as usual. Anyway, it'd be nice to hear from lots of others on the topic ... To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC 1.7 standard?
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Henrik Norbeck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >There was a "standards committee" (or some similar name) >some years ago. Don't remember who was on it, but I think it >should be revived, with a chairman/leader. > Just one comment: having a software developer in charge of standards is a conflict of interests. S/he can drive the standard in the direction of his/her own software. Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC 1.7 standard?
There was a "standards committee" (or some similar name) some years ago. Don't remember who was on it, but I think it should be revived, with a chairman/leader. Henrik Norbeck, Stockholm, Sweden [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.norbeck.nu/ My home page http://www.norbeck.nu/abcmus/ AbcMus player program http://www.norbeck.nu/abc/ >1900 ABC tunes http://www.norbeck.nu/blackthorn Irish trad music band http://www.rfod.se/folklink/ Links to Swedish trad music To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC 1.7 standard?
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Bert Van Vreckem wrote: > What the abc 'movement' needs is someone who takes > responsibility over the standard. Personally, I would > propose Jef Moine and Guido Gonzato: Jef because he's > the developer of the (TMHO) leading abc package, > Guido Gonzato because of his vision and his > dedication. I agree entirely. Jef and Guido, are you willing to take this noble task upon you? I vote for you! Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC 1.7 standard?
I. Oppenheim wrote: On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, John Chambers wrote: | Cool. Thanks. First I'd heard. No mention of it on Chris's web | site (still refers to it as draft and 1.6 as current). Maybe we should discuss labelling it the 1.7 standard? I don't post a lot to the list, but I can't let this pass without giving you my two cents... What the abc 'movement' needs is someone who takes responsibility over the standard. Ever since Chris stopped active participation, a lot of very good extensions to the standard have been made, but because there is no real leader, these changes remain, well, apocryphal. I'm sure that Chris would be delighted to know that the standards is back in good hands. Personally, I would propose Jef Moine and Guido Gonzato: Jef because he's the developer of the (TMHO) leading abc package, Guido Gonzato because of his vision and his dedication. What do you all think? Does the abc project need a 'manager' that is responsible for the standard? Who would be a good candidate? Would you yourself be candidate? Cheers, bert -- Bert Van Vreckem Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer. -- Dave Barry To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
