Re: [abcusers] Re: OT: hornpipes
John Chambers wrote: > > Frank asks: > | Can anybody tell the difference between a shottish and a Norwegian > | reinlender then? > > Yeah - They're spelled differently. > > (That's the only difference that I can see.) Richard Robinson wrote: > > I wouldn't put it past the Norwegians to have a different dance for them, ... Yep, we're a devious bunch, aren't we? We even have our own very special kind of waltz! ;-) > but a lot of Reinlanders can certainly be played for people dancing > schottis, without complaint. Well, that's more or less what happens up here too. It seems the difference is important to the musicians while the dancers couldn't care less. Actually, the Norwegian reinlender isn't *supposed* to be identical to John's description of the shottish. It's just that most dancers only know the first "tur" of the dance... Frank http://www.musicaviva.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: OT: hornpipes
No, that was someone else that wrote that. :) I live in the British Isles. I thought that the whole world knew that we invented football, the wheel, tennis, language, movement etc. L. - Original Message - From: Frank Nordberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [abcusers] Re: OT: hornpipes Laurie Griffiths wrote: > > Yeah. There are some old music history books that claimed that the > Irish got the jig from the Italian tarantella. The explanation for > this seems to have been that the historians didn't believe that > anyone in the British Isles had the brains to invent anything > themselves, so they must have got it from more cultured people. Well, people all over the world have always had a tendency to look abroad for "exotic" dance music (the French/English branle-contry dance-contre danse-contra dance-etc... connection is a prime example of this) or if that failed, invent something (such as the French fake Scottish "eccosaise"). When it comes to the jig, the agreed upon "truth" during the 19th and early 20th Centuries was that the British jig came from the giga of the Italian baroque suite, although it's obviously the other way around. But then again, that was the dark age of musicology and you shouldn't take *anything* written in any music history books during that period seriously unless confirmed by more reliable sources. That being said, the jig - as we know it from the Elizabethan period and onwards - *is* strikingly similar to the sarabande, the canario, one of the two most important dances knwon as "tarantella" and a couple of other Spanish and Italian dances. So far nobody has come up with any connection, but I think there *has* to be. The term "jig" seems to have been originally used as a common term for most any uptempo dance with lots of jumpin' and jivin' and jiggn'. One of the best known mid-16th C. jigs, Kemp's jig, shows no resemblance at all to the modern jig, but is a dead ringer for a rujero. (Concidering the fact that it's named after a famous actor/dancer/performer, it's probably a set dance anyway.) X:1 T:Kemp's jig C:anon. O:England Z:Transcribed by Frank Nordberg - http://www.musicaviva.com N:Slightly simplified version M:C L:1/4 K:D "D"f>e f"A"e|"Bm"d>e d"A"c|"G"B"D"A "G"B"A"c|"D"d3z:| |:"D"fa fa|"D"fa/g/ f2|"C"eg eg|"C"ed/=c/ "G"B"A"^c| "D"dAFA dAFA|"G"B"D"A "G"B"A"c|"D"d3z:| Frank http://www.musicaviva.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: OT: hornpipes
On Fri, 1 Mar 2002, Frank Nordberg wrote: > John Chambers wrote (about shottish): > > ... > > > the constant footwork of: step-step-step-hop, step-step-step-hop, > > step-hop-step-hop, step-hop-step-hop. > > Hmmm... > Can anybody tell the difference between a shottish and a Norwegian > reinlender then? Spelling :) I wouldn't put it past the Norwegians to have a different dance for them, but a lot of Reinlanders can certainly be played for people dancing schottis, without complaint. -- Richard Robinson "The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: OT: hornpipes
Frank asks: | ... | John Chambers wrote (about shottish): | > the constant footwork of: step-step-step-hop, step-step-step-hop, | > step-hop-step-hop, step-hop-step-hop. | | Hmmm... | Can anybody tell the difference between a shottish and a Norwegian | reinlender then? Yeah - They're spelled differently. (That's the only difference that I can see.) To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: OT: hornpipes
John Chambers wrote (about shottish): ... > the constant footwork of: step-step-step-hop, step-step-step-hop, > step-hop-step-hop, step-hop-step-hop. Hmmm... Can anybody tell the difference between a shottish and a Norwegian reinlender then? Frank http://www.musicaviva.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: OT: hornpipes
Laurie Griffiths wrote: > > Yeah. There are some old music history books that claimed that the > Irish got the jig from the Italian tarantella. The explanation for > this seems to have been that the historians didn't believe that > anyone in the British Isles had the brains to invent anything > themselves, so they must have got it from more cultured people. Well, people all over the world have always had a tendency to look abroad for "exotic" dance music (the French/English branle-contry dance-contre danse-contra dance-etc... connection is a prime example of this) or if that failed, invent something (such as the French fake Scottish "eccosaise"). When it comes to the jig, the agreed upon "truth" during the 19th and early 20th Centuries was that the British jig came from the giga of the Italian baroque suite, although it's obviously the other way around. But then again, that was the dark age of musicology and you shouldn't take *anything* written in any music history books during that period seriously unless confirmed by more reliable sources. That being said, the jig - as we know it from the Elizabethan period and onwards - *is* strikingly similar to the sarabande, the canario, one of the two most important dances knwon as "tarantella" and a couple of other Spanish and Italian dances. So far nobody has come up with any connection, but I think there *has* to be. The term "jig" seems to have been originally used as a common term for most any uptempo dance with lots of jumpin' and jivin' and jiggn'. One of the best known mid-16th C. jigs, Kemp's jig, shows no resemblance at all to the modern jig, but is a dead ringer for a rujero. (Concidering the fact that it's named after a famous actor/dancer/performer, it's probably a set dance anyway.) X:1 T:Kemp's jig C:anon. O:England Z:Transcribed by Frank Nordberg - http://www.musicaviva.com N:Slightly simplified version M:C L:1/4 K:D "D"f>e f"A"e|"Bm"d>e d"A"c|"G"B"D"A "G"B"A"c|"D"d3z:| |:"D"fa fa|"D"fa/g/ f2|"C"eg eg|"C"ed/=c/ "G"B"A"^c| "D"dAFA dAFA|"G"B"D"A "G"B"A"c|"D"d3z:| Frank http://www.musicaviva.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: OT: hornpipes
Richard Robinson wrote: >On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, John Chambers wrote: > >> The word "hornpipe" does exist primarily as a dance term, ... > >I think it has also been used for an instrument name (just to confuse >things) - unsurprisingly enough. I have a vague memory of bumping into it >somewhere (but I can't remember where) as a translation for "chalumeau", >which is also said to have been a forerunner of the clarinet. > Yep. The hornpipe (the instrument that is) was a single reed instrument, blown by mouth, with a bell at the bottom made from cows horn - hence the name. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: OT: hornpipes
On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, John Chambers wrote: > The word "hornpipe" does exist primarily as a dance term, ... I think it has also been used for an instrument name (just to confuse things) - unsurprisingly enough. I have a vague memory of bumping into it somewhere (but I can't remember where) as a translation for "chalumeau", which is also said to have been a forerunner of the clarinet. -- Richard Robinson "The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: OT: hornpipes
| How does a Schottische (or shottish) dance step go? By some coincidence, someone just posted a text description of a "rant" step, and I noticed for the first time that it's a variant of the basic shottish step. You can define a shottish as a couple dance in which the basic step consists of one "rant" step in place (done without any foot-crossing), followed by turning around each other with your basic "skipping" step (step-hop-step-hop). The "rant" step is of course a "step-step-step-hop", which can be done in place or moving. In the rant there is typically (but not always) foot crossing at the start, producing a noticeable side-to-side motion; in the shottish this doesn't happen. There are actually hundreds of shottish "steps", but they mostly have the same footwork. They differ by what the dancers are doing with their upper bodies and how they move across the floor. They can be summarized as whatever can be done by a pair of human bodies above the constant footwork of: step-step-step-hop, step-step-step-hop, step-hop-step-hop, step-hop-step-hop. These all work just fine to the typical dotted "hornpipe" rhythm. How irregular the musical beat is depends on local style, and shottishes are frequently done to music that's played evenly. It's the speed that's important. Such step-hop or skipping dances tend to want speeds around 70-90, so reels don't work very well. You have to turn them into hornpipes. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: OT: hornpipes
How does a Schottische (or shottish) dance step go? L. - Original Message - From: John Chambers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [abcusers] Re: OT: hornpipes Bryan commented: | Joe Mc Cool said - | >I was told once that Hornpipes came originally from France. | | And I once heard that jigs were invented by the English, reels by the Scots | and the only sort of tune invented by the Irish was the polka. | | Er? Yeah, right. Yeah. There are some old music history books that claimed that the Irish got the jig from the Italian tarantella. The explanation for this seems to have been that the historians didn't believe that anyone in the British Isles had the brains to invent anything themselves, so they must have got it from more cultured people. There's a lot of nonsense written on such topics. Sloppy terminology helps. Thus, the hornpipe rhythm is essentially indistinguishable from the shottish rhythm, and in fact people do confuse them. I've played music for some Irish-American groups, and seen the older folks respond to a hornpipe by getting up in pairs and doing a shottish. When asked what that dance is called, they'll usually say "hornpipe". A few know that it's also called "shottish". The step dancers are usually puzzled by this. Most of the people don't care what it's called, which just adds to the problems if you want to track down any accurate history. The word "hornpipe" does exist primarily as a dance term, and the step dance by that name is pretty clearly an international development. The stereotype of a sailor's dance is only partly true, of course, but sailors and merchants have historically been one of the ways that music and dance (not to mention genes and diseases) get spread around the world. All of this neglects the fact that the jig and hornpipe rhythms are found in old music all over the world. These are basic, simple rhythms, and it would be surprising if a musical tradition didn't come up with them. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: OT: hornpipes
Bryan commented: | Joe Mc Cool said - | >I was told once that Hornpipes came originally from France. | | And I once heard that jigs were invented by the English, reels by the Scots | and the only sort of tune invented by the Irish was the polka. | | Er? Yeah, right. Yeah. There are some old music history books that claimed that the Irish got the jig from the Italian tarantella. The explanation for this seems to have been that the historians didn't believe that anyone in the British Isles had the brains to invent anything themselves, so they must have got it from more cultured people. There's a lot of nonsense written on such topics. Sloppy terminology helps. Thus, the hornpipe rhythm is essentially indistinguishable from the shottish rhythm, and in fact people do confuse them. I've played music for some Irish-American groups, and seen the older folks respond to a hornpipe by getting up in pairs and doing a shottish. When asked what that dance is called, they'll usually say "hornpipe". A few know that it's also called "shottish". The step dancers are usually puzzled by this. Most of the people don't care what it's called, which just adds to the problems if you want to track down any accurate history. The word "hornpipe" does exist primarily as a dance term, and the step dance by that name is pretty clearly an international development. The stereotype of a sailor's dance is only partly true, of course, but sailors and merchants have historically been one of the ways that music and dance (not to mention genes and diseases) get spread around the world. All of this neglects the fact that the jig and hornpipe rhythms are found in old music all over the world. These are basic, simple rhythms, and it would be surprising if a musical tradition didn't come up with them. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re: OT: hornpipes
Joe Mc Cool said - >I was told once that Hornpipes came originally from France. And I once heard that jigs were invented by the English, reels by the Scots and the only sort of tune invented by the Irish was the polka. Er? Yeah, right. Bryan To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
