Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer
Hi, Le 19/06/2024 à 09:12, Michael Weghorn a écrit : On 2024-06-19 08:48, Michael Weghorn wrote: On 2024-06-18 14:38, Jason J.G. White wrote: Orca does however announce the accessible *name* (not the description by default, at least in my setup) when using the "To Next Frame" shortcut Shift+F4 to select the image. Whether or not the accessible description is announced by Orca is generally configurable in Orca's settings. But it turns out that even when announcing descriptions is enabled in Orca, the description is not announced for objects in LibreOffice. It turns out that this was explicitly disabled in Orca for LibreOffice (except for "WhereAmI" mode) in the past, in this commit: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca/-/ commit/1121a27b10b4b5804c90f616154514cdce30d246 If I remove that locally for testing, Orca does announce the image description as well when the image gets focus via Shift+F4. Ok but the problem is that in order to do shift-f4, I need to be aware that I am on a picture. ANd if I just press the arrow key to examine the doc, I dont have any feedback. It means that if I want to get something, I need to use the browser, then enter. But it is very heavy depending of the situation. I guess LO does not send to Orca something during the arrow navigation, with which Orca can see any picture. If it's desirable to have descriptions announced, eliminating the unnecessary "chattiness" observed in the past (if it's still known what that is) and then changing Orca to announce descriptions again might be a way forward. Again, the solution is really not perfect. I needed to analyse 2 days ago a 40 pages docs, I can say that using the browser to see images then trying tetting something is heavy. My hope is that arrow keys announce images, regardless their alternative text or not. Best regards, @joanie: Any thoughts on that? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
Hi,
Le 07/10/2023 à 23:25, Michael Weghorn a écrit :
Hi Jean-Philippe,
On 2023-10-07 06:19, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:
Nice to start chatting with you, I heard of you at Libocon via
COlomban you met there and worling with my organization. I am glad if
I can help you working on LO accessibility given the high needed job.
For your info, as a "power user"/tester, I mainly use Linux and I use
Libreoffice latest stable (in Sid on Debian). Hypa uses an older one
due to bugs that COlomban will show you, but the bug tracker mentions
most of them, reported by me and my former colleague.
great to hear from you and thanks a lot for the work so far, your input
and offer to help further. I'm looking forward to continue working
together!
I'd definitely be interested in hearing what regressions are currently
preventing Hypra from updating to a current LibreOffice version.
(There are currently more than 200 accessibility-related tickets in
Bugzilla; knowing which are the ones that Hypra considers blockers would
be helpful.)
Yes, COlomban is working for this. I gave him my nputs, he now tries to
give a better technical base and reproduction scenarios. To sum up my
current feeling, the main problems is the style dialog, where browsing
with the caret is very difficult to edit and tweak styles, the browser
(f5) whose behaviour is not stable, and some dialogs where browing is
very hard (eg. this to number chapters, in Tools menu). The style dialog
being the most problematic as what is sent to the accessibility infra is
really difficult to use for a screen reader, I tried to run an automated
test suite producing code to reproduce scenarios from the at-spi events
and this dialog sent really not relevant info.
Actually I think something needs to be explained: using screen readers
like Orca or NVDA, we consider as accessible information what may be
reached via the caret, ie. what you can move with tab key or the arrow
keys. Using advanced features to access to the information, eg. object
navigation or flat review, is not optimal. It might work, but not
everybody know it and is it considered as a kind of hack to workaround
accessibility limitations.
For dialogs that present information without allowing to change
anything, like the case of the word count dialog ("Tools" -> "Word
Count") discussed here:
Would you still expect to be able to navigate within the dialog text
using tab or arrow keys?
Yes. In comparison, in Thunderbird, when having a dialog (a question for
instance), the caret can switch to OK, Cancel, and the message box,
enabling to say it. Of course in such case not other ineraction is
possible, but the movement is and makes it accessible.
Or would the expectation rather be that the dialog content is announced
by the screen reader automatically when the dialog gets shown?
I think such behavior would be acceptable, but when the user needs to
repeat the info, it is always more simple if he can see it via tab or
keys I think. Screen readers dont't have always a feature to repeat the
last message and the last message may be interrupted by another (a
notification, a movement on the keyboard without consequence, etc)
So far, I was thinking more about the latter. This would also match the
current behavior of other info/warning dialogs, like the one that gets
shown when closing the document with unsaved changes.
Right, same problem, in particular, for example, when the filename is
not friendly for a speech synth, requiring repeating.
I think that's a screen reader issue. You should probably report it
to NVDA.
Unfortunately I am not sure. I Cc Joanmarie Diggs, main Orca
developer, who can confirm or give you technical explanations. DOnt
hesitate to subscribe to the orca mailing list where all the community
activity takes place:
https://www.freelists.org/list/orca
I think if the screen reader is unable to announce a mismelled word
while speaking the current line or saying all the document, it is
because it does not get the info from the accessibilit tree.
That sounds plausible. As mentioned in my previous email, I'm planning
to take a closer look at this. Since it works with other applications
(like Word or Thunderbird) and NVDA is free and open source, too, I'm
optimistic that it'll be possible to identify what's missing on either
LibreOffice or NVDA side.
Great, many thanks
Best regards
(According to Jason, this already works as expected with Orca on Linux.)
Best regards,
Michael
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
Hi Michael, Nice to start chatting with you, I heard of you at Libocon via COlomban you met there and worling with my organization. I am glad if I can help you working on LO accessibility given the high needed job. For your info, as a "power user"/tester, I mainly use Linux and I use Libreoffice latest stable (in Sid on Debian). Hypa uses an older one due to bugs that COlomban will show you, but the bug tracker mentions most of them, reported by me and my former colleague. Le 06/10/2023 à 20:32, Michael Weghorn a écrit : Hi Daniel and Jason, thanks a lot for your email mentioning these points and the further input! Some notes/questions on the individual points follow below. On 2023-10-05 00:01, Jason White wrote: On 4/10/23 17:22, Daniel McGrath wrote: Firstly, when bringing up a word count, it's very difficult to see... for the screen reader to read the word count. Most of the window seems taken up with a needlessly (to me) long explanation of what word count does. The only way I've found of hearing the actual word count is to use insert+b to get NVDA to read the whole dialog box, and the word count comes right at the end. Little thing I know, but rather irritating if one is trying to keep tabs on the number of words, and having to read every time that this shows the word count of the current selection and the whole document, and that this is automatically updated as you type. Useful to know once of course, but annoying to have to hear every single time. I've just tested this under Linux with Orca, and I can use the screen reader's review commands to read the dialogue. Starting from the bottom gives me the character counts (with and without spaces), and the word count. Actually I think something needs to be explained: using screen readers like Orca or NVDA, we consider as accessible information what may be reached via the caret, ie. what you can move with tab key or the arrow keys. Using advanced features to access to the information, eg. object navigation or flat review, is not optimal. It might work, but not everybody know it and is it considered as a kind of hack to workaround accessibility limitations. The explanation of what word count does is not shown in the dialog, but set as the accessible description of the dialog. And when an accessible description is set for a dialog, NVDA announces that description instead of the dialog content. NVDA source code for this: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/a380b6a76a0a29df32e57c1bd974b11a895ac0c8/source/NVDAObjects/behaviors.py#L151-L156 On top of that, the same text was set for both of the buttons, so when pressing NVDA+B, the text would get announced three times: once as the accessible description of the dialog at the very beginning, and then once when each of the buttons is announced. At least the latter seems wrong, so I've submitted a change to drop that: https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/157637 One approach to avoid announcing the explanation each time and announcing the content instead would be dropping the accessible description for the dialog, since it's still easily possible to get that info by pressing the "Help" button in the dialog. I've submitted a change to do that, but am currently waiting for feedback from the documentation/help team on whether that's OK, since that would also mean that the text is no longer shown as a tooltip when extended tips are enabled in the LibreOffice options. As a potential alternative, if you're primarily interested in the document word count, that info is more quickly available in the status bar. NVDA+End will announce it from NVDA 2023.2 on. (This was implemented in NVDA for LibreOffice in https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/14933 .) As a side note, when I tested that just now, I noticed that this needs another update to work with the current development version of LibreOffice and to make the functionality work with status bars in dialogs as well. Pending/Suggested changes: https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/157658 https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/157659 https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/15592 But as far as I can tell, if you're using NVDA 2023.2 and LibreOffice 7.5 or 7.6, this should work fine. My second point is about automatic spell checking. I find that my screen reader will only inform me of a spelling error if the cursor happens to land on the word. I don't know if I can make it any clearer, but for instance if reading a line back in this email, NVDA will announce "spelling error" each time it encounters a mis-spelled word. In LO writer, I will only be told each mis-spelled word when the cursor is on it. Pretty little thing this, but it would be nice if it could be corrected. I think that's a screen reader issue. You should probably report it to NVDA. Unfortunately I am not sure. I Cc Joanmarie Diggs, main Orca developer, who can confirm or give you technical explanations. DOnt hesitate to subscribe to the
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility Requirement for LibreOffice Adoption at National Governmental Levels, etc.
Hi, Le 19/07/2023 à 16:19, Marc Paré a écrit : I was wondering if someone could comment on the following. If there were campaigns of LibreOffice/ODF adoption as default software/open document formats directed to various country governmental levels (either at the national, state/provincial, local/municipal, educational, NGO, etc.), would these different levels have each of their own requirements for adoption of LibreOffice/ODF adoption depending on their criteria of accessibility options of a LibreOffice? Or are there large differences in accessibility options between such organizations where each would have to be researched separately before embarking on such a campaign? Do the accessibility options found in LibreOffice suffice for all criteria of adoption for most of these organizations? I am not sure I understand what you mean related to such organizations, but from my user experience and public experience, there is still a lot of work to make Libreoffice accessible correctly. For example most sight impaired persons dont use LibreOffce and their employer, even if it uses it, accepts to use an other program for such target. Is there an organization that regulates accessibility requirements for software packages? In france the regulation covers any program if used to work or for some public service. But making them accessible is a cost, and few persons want to pay for this. So regulation is not really enforced, even if impovements exist. Are there any missing accessibility options in LibreOffice that would essentially make it difficult for any governmental agency to adopt it as their default wordprocessor software suite? oh yes, many. especially if one needs an assistive technology (screen reader, magnifier, etc). Collaborative work is difficult (tracking, coments), as well as formatting of document (footnotes, etc). Things may move now that we have non regression tests, as I think some companies can now implement accessible infrastructure and hope that everything will not be broken during a next commit, thanks to such tests. But again, the task is heavy regards Marc -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
