Re: *Real* admin interface (Was: q vol f=g ??!?)
Hi Mark! Can you sort your dsmadmc output? Can you scroll up and down through your dsmadmc results? Think not. So I think you can't compare the commandline client with the good old GUI. Anyway, I was contacted by Tivoli for a Storage Management customer survey, I will definitely bring up this point during the interview! Kindest regards, Eric van Loon KLM Royal Dutch Airlines -Original Message- From: Stapleton, Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 01:45 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: *Real* admin interface (Was: q vol f=g ??!?) From: Kamp, Bruce [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] What might be another alternative is an MMC (Microsoft Management Console) If you'll look *really carefully* at the TSM Management Console for Windows, you're looking at an MMC. All this talk about a real admin console leads me to a question: what is it you want to look at? You want to see how many volumes are contained in a storage pool? How many scratch tapes are in your library? How many tape volumes are in pending mode? Sounds to *me* like you need to be using dsmadmc. I haven't found a GUI-based admin interface that can hold a candle to the reliability, speed, and pinpoint control available of the command-line admin interface. I can run select statements that give me *exactly* what I want and in the format I want, I can script rapidly and easily, I can redirect output to text and pipe it to text processors like Perl, Python, and even lowly awk and sed. Yes, it takes practice, and it take some typing skill to do it quickly. And, as a Tivoli rep and I agreed upon, any kind of realtime monitor would do nothing but drag down the speed of the TSM server for the sake of generating pretty pictures for the local PHB. -- Mark Stapleton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Berbee Information Networks Office 262.521.5627 ** For information, services and offers, please visit our web site: http://www.klm.com. This e-mail and any attachment may contain confidential and privileged material intended for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that no part of the e-mail or any attachment may be disclosed, copied or distributed, and that any other action related to this e-mail or attachment is strictly prohibited, and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail by error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij NV (KLM), its subsidiaries and/or its employees shall not be liable for the incorrect or incomplete transmission of this e-mail or any attachments, nor responsible for any delay in receipt. **
Re: *Real* admin interface (Was: q vol f=g ??!?)
On Tue, Aug 26, 2003 at 11:02:20AM +0200, Loon, E.J. van - SPLXM wrote: Hi Mark! Can you sort your dsmadmc output? Can you scroll up and down through your dsmadmc results? Think not. So I think you can't compare the commandline I for one can do that easily. My xterm has a large scroll buffer. Together with a small perl script to beautify the q act output and I'm a happy person using the commandline. I only use the (web)gui when I forgot which commands to use for some task... -Marcel -Original Message- From: Stapleton, Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 01:45 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: *Real* admin interface (Was: q vol f=g ??!?) From: Kamp, Bruce [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] What might be another alternative is an MMC (Microsoft Management Console) If you'll look *really carefully* at the TSM Management Console for Windows, you're looking at an MMC. All this talk about a real admin console leads me to a question: what is it you want to look at? You want to see how many volumes are contained in a storage pool? How many scratch tapes are in your library? How many tape volumes are in pending mode? Sounds to *me* like you need to be using dsmadmc. I haven't found a GUI-based admin interface that can hold a candle to the reliability, speed, and pinpoint control available of the command-line admin interface. I can run select statements that give me *exactly* what I want and in the format I want, I can script rapidly and easily, I can redirect output to text and pipe it to text processors like Perl, Python, and even lowly awk and sed. Yes, it takes practice, and it take some typing skill to do it quickly. And, as a Tivoli rep and I agreed upon, any kind of realtime monitor would do nothing but drag down the speed of the TSM server for the sake of generating pretty pictures for the local PHB. -- Mark Stapleton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Berbee Information Networks Office 262.521.5627 ** For information, services and offers, please visit our web site: http://www.klm.com. This e-mail and any attachment may contain confidential and privileged material intended for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that no part of the e-mail or any attachment may be disclosed, copied or distributed, and that any other action related to this e-mail or attachment is strictly prohibited, and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail by error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij NV (KLM), its subsidiaries and/or its employees shall not be liable for the incorrect or incomplete transmission of this e-mail or any attachments, nor responsible for any delay in receipt. ** -- == Marcel J.E. MolMESA Consulting B.V. ===-ph. +31-(0)6-54724868 P.O. Box 112 ===-[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2630 AC Nootdorp __ www.mesa.nl ---U_n_i_x__I_n_t_e_r_n_e_t The Netherlands They couldn't think of a number, Linux user 1148 -- counter.li.org so they gave me a name! -- Rupert Hine -- www.ruperthine.com
Re: *Real* admin interface (Was: q vol f=g ??!?)
= On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:02:20 +0200, Loon, E.J. van - SPLXM [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Can you sort your dsmadmc output? Yes. Either with ORDER BY, or '| sort -k2 -t,' Can you scroll up and down through your dsmadmc results? Yes. My terminal has 1000 lines scrollback, but I can make more. :) The key is, a GUI interface is always going to be limited to the functions that Someone At IBM decided to instrument. Increasingly, I share the opinion that the web GUI is enough for occasional administrative actors, and no GUI will be adequate for the actual admins. - Allen S. Rout - UF TSM geek
Re: *Real* admin interface (Was: q vol f=g ??!?)
From: Kamp, Bruce [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] What might be another alternative is an MMC (Microsoft Management Console) If you'll look *really carefully* at the TSM Management Console for Windows, you're looking at an MMC. All this talk about a real admin console leads me to a question: what is it you want to look at? You want to see how many volumes are contained in a storage pool? How many scratch tapes are in your library? How many tape volumes are in pending mode? Sounds to *me* like you need to be using dsmadmc. I haven't found a GUI-based admin interface that can hold a candle to the reliability, speed, and pinpoint control available of the command-line admin interface. I can run select statements that give me *exactly* what I want and in the format I want, I can script rapidly and easily, I can redirect output to text and pipe it to text processors like Perl, Python, and even lowly awk and sed. Yes, it takes practice, and it take some typing skill to do it quickly. And, as a Tivoli rep and I agreed upon, any kind of realtime monitor would do nothing but drag down the speed of the TSM server for the sake of generating pretty pictures for the local PHB. -- Mark Stapleton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Berbee Information Networks Office 262.521.5627
Re: *Real* admin interface (Was: q vol f=g ??!?)
Hi, I know buying a 3d party product should not be the alternative. Anyway, we are very happy with the old dsmadm.exe 3.1.0.8 (old GUI), plus tsmmanager and/or servergraph ! Best regards, René LAMBELET NESTEC SA GLOBE - Global Business Excellence Central Support Center SD/ESN Av. Nestlé 55 CH-1800 Vevey (Switzerland) tél +41 (0)21 924 35 43 fax +41 (0)21 924 13 69 local K4-104 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. -Original Message- From: Sascha Askani [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday,22. August 2003 20:25 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: *Real* admin interface (Was: q vol f=g ??!?) Oh my, seems like I started a holy war (again) :) Anyway, thanks for the answers, now I see clear ! I started using TSM with Version 4.1.x, so I didn't know there once was a real GUI for *SM. Nevertheless, I would REALLY like such a tool cause I don't like the web gui either. Greetings, Sascha [CUT] Thomas - I share your frustration. How to get results may require another approach... Product such as TSM are Big Bucks, Enterprise products. As such, they are marketed to the level of people in the organization who can authorize such expenditures - customer company executives. Executives respond to Enterprise issues: competitiveness, saving lots of money, nice reports, trimming staff. Issues that affect us lowly technicians way down in the company engine room, where we shovel coal into the company boilers, don't get any exposure or attention. To get such attention, those issues have to get up to a higher management level where those managers, whom IBM will respond to, will feed the issues to the IBM rep and thus get attention. You have to expend efforts to make a written case, understandable to higher-ups, that the current product situation is impairing administration and costing the company lost productivity, etc. SHARE is certainly an avenue; but as they say, Money talks. Richard Sims, BU
Re: *Real* admin interface (Was: q vol f=g ??!?)
Thomas, And if I recall correctly, at this point, the next poster usually says: But you *can* still use the old ADSMv3.1 admin GUI with current server versions I know I do for lots of things such as tape/volume manipulation and viewing filespace listings etc, and it does the job more than adequately. To be frank, performing most of the operations that feature in server versions 3.1, I would really only want to do from the command line anyway. All the same, I would *love* to see an updated version... Rgds, David McClelland Global Management Systems Reuters Ltd -Original Message- From: Thomas Rupp, Vorarlberger Illwerke AG [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 22 August 2003 14:36 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: *Real* admin interface (Was: q vol f=g ??!?) Hello, this the old admin GUI is much better than the Web interface subject pops up now and then. The poster of the first message always dreams of a Windows or Java GUI that supports the latest TSM server (btw I'm dreaming too). A few minutes later the list gets drowned by me too messages. I think there was/is a SHARE requirement for a *real* admin interface (can you filter your tape volumes with the web interface?). I don't understand why Tivoli isn't listening to their customers. Tivoli should start a survey on how many customers would like to have such an animal and on what platform. Based on this results it should be easy to provide a GUI for the platform users want. So please Tivoli, LISTEN! Ok, enough grumbling for today. Have a nice weekend Thomas Rupp Vorarlberger Illwerke AG --- - Visit our Internet site at http://www.reuters.com Get closer to the financial markets with Reuters Messaging - for more information and to register, visit http://www.reuters.com/messaging Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Reuters Ltd.
Re: *Real* admin interface (Was: q vol f=g ??!?)
this the old admin GUI is much better than the Web interface subject=20 pops up now and then. The poster of the first message always dreams of a Windows or Java GUI that supports the latest TSM server (btw I'm dreaming too). A few minutes later the list gets drowned by me too messages. I think there was/is a SHARE requirement for a *real* admin interface (can you filter your tape volumes with the web interface?). I don't understand why Tivoli isn't listening to their customers. Tivoli should start a survey on how many customers would like to have such an animal and on what platform. Based on this results it should be easy to provide a GUI for the platform users want. So please Tivoli, LISTEN! Thomas - I share your frustration. How to get results may require another approach... Product such as TSM are Big Bucks, Enterprise products. As such, they are marketed to the level of people in the organization who can authorize such expenditures - customer company executives. Executives respond to Enterprise issues: competitiveness, saving lots of money, nice reports, trimming staff. Issues that affect us lowly technicians way down in the company engine room, where we shovel coal into the company boilers, don't get any exposure or attention. To get such attention, those issues have to get up to a higher management level where those managers, whom IBM will respond to, will feed the issues to the IBM rep and thus get attention. You have to expend efforts to make a written case, understandable to higher-ups, that the current product situation is impairing administration and costing the company lost productivity, etc. SHARE is certainly an avenue; but as they say, Money talks. Richard Sims, BU
Re: *Real* admin interface (Was: q vol f=g ??!?)
Having been part of three original joint studies with ESMS (which never saw the light of day), WDSF (which morphed into ADSM) and finally another ADSM project back in the late '80s and early '90s, I only had access to the line mode admin client in the early days and I still use it to this day. Reason number one is that it provides full functionality. I've looked at all of the web and GUI clients in countless releases and versions and none of them are able to do things that I really need to do in some manner that's usable to me. Configuring the server is probably the most difficult thing to do with a UI and the line-mode client works best, assuming you know all of the commands. Luckily, almost all of the help files have references to pertinent commands at the end and you can use those to wind your way through the maze of commands required to do simple things like defining a SCSI tape drive (set up the device, drive, path, etc. can all be figured out by reading the help files but you need to read multiple help files to get the whole picture together). I know I'm a dinosaur and administrators out there who are very uncomfortable with anything but a GUI are probably not going to ever get away from it but scripted dsmadmc commands (when crafted correctly) are extremely powerful when coupled with simple filtering tools like perl, awk, sed, grep, etc. Add to this the SQL query capability and all of the helpful people on the list who know how to build those queries and you have a very powerful interface. I disagree that it's easy to provide a GUI. It's probably the most difficult thing in the world to create. Just look at SMIT. How many years has that tool been in development? It's pretty good, probably the most impressive GUI I've seen for UNIX systems administration but you really can't beet the line mode commands if you want to automate things. Anyway, I hope you have a nice weekend, too. Mitch Thomas Rupp, Vorarlberger Illwerke AG wrote: Hello, this the old admin GUI is much better than the Web interface subject pops up now and then. The poster of the first message always dreams of a Windows or Java GUI that supports the latest TSM server (btw I'm dreaming too). A few minutes later the list gets drowned by me too messages. I think there was/is a SHARE requirement for a *real* admin interface (can you filter your tape volumes with the web interface?). I don't understand why Tivoli isn't listening to their customers. Tivoli should start a survey on how many customers would like to have such an animal and on what platform. Based on this results it should be easy to provide a GUI for the platform users want. So please Tivoli, LISTEN! Ok, enough grumbling for today. Have a nice weekend Thomas Rupp Vorarlberger Illwerke AG
Re: *Real* admin interface (Was: q vol f=g ??!?)
What might be another alternative is an MMC (Microsoft Management Console) Bruce Kamp -Original Message- From: Richard Sims To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 8/22/2003 9:55 AM Subject: Re: *Real* admin interface (Was: q vol f=g ??!?) this the old admin GUI is much better than the Web interface subject=20 pops up now and then. The poster of the first message always dreams of a Windows or Java GUI that supports the latest TSM server (btw I'm dreaming too). A few minutes later the list gets drowned by me too messages. I think there was/is a SHARE requirement for a *real* admin interface (can you filter your tape volumes with the web interface?). I don't understand why Tivoli isn't listening to their customers. Tivoli should start a survey on how many customers would like to have such an animal and on what platform. Based on this results it should be easy to provide a GUI for the platform users want. So please Tivoli, LISTEN! Thomas - I share your frustration. How to get results may require another approach... Product such as TSM are Big Bucks, Enterprise products. As such, they are marketed to the level of people in the organization who can authorize such expenditures - customer company executives. Executives respond to Enterprise issues: competitiveness, saving lots of money, nice reports, trimming staff. Issues that affect us lowly technicians way down in the company engine room, where we shovel coal into the company boilers, don't get any exposure or attention. To get such attention, those issues have to get up to a higher management level where those managers, whom IBM will respond to, will feed the issues to the IBM rep and thus get attention. You have to expend efforts to make a written case, understandable to higher-ups, that the current product situation is impairing administration and costing the company lost productivity, etc. SHARE is certainly an avenue; but as they say, Money talks. Richard Sims, BU
Re: *Real* admin interface (Was: q vol f=g ??!?)
Oh my, seems like I started a holy war (again) :) Anyway, thanks for the answers, now I see clear ! I started using TSM with Version 4.1.x, so I didn't know there once was a real GUI for *SM. Nevertheless, I would REALLY like such a tool cause I don't like the web gui either. Greetings, Sascha [CUT] Thomas - I share your frustration. How to get results may require another approach... Product such as TSM are Big Bucks, Enterprise products. As such, they are marketed to the level of people in the organization who can authorize such expenditures - customer company executives. Executives respond to Enterprise issues: competitiveness, saving lots of money, nice reports, trimming staff. Issues that affect us lowly technicians way down in the company engine room, where we shovel coal into the company boilers, don't get any exposure or attention. To get such attention, those issues have to get up to a higher management level where those managers, whom IBM will respond to, will feed the issues to the IBM rep and thus get attention. You have to expend efforts to make a written case, understandable to higher-ups, that the current product situation is impairing administration and costing the company lost productivity, etc. SHARE is certainly an avenue; but as they say, Money talks. Richard Sims, BU
