Re: [AFMUG] Out of the office

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

Someone's autoresponder definitely isn't compliant with RFC 3834.   It
really irriates me that there are numerous docs out there on how to
correctly do an autoresponder, and most of the implementers just ignore
them.



On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 10:38 PM, Ryan Ray  wrote:

> HA! ROBERT YOU'RE GONNA MAKE US GO BACK TO REPLY ALL COME ON BUDDY
>
> On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 9:35 PM, Robert Van 
> wrote:
>
>> Sorry for the inconvenience but I will be out of the office until 7/9/18,
>> if you need assistance right away please call 920-686-4800 and Tech Support
>> can help you.
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] Out of the office

[Seth Mattinen]

On 6/29/18 9:38 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:

HA! ROBERT YOU'RE GONNA MAKE US GO BACK TO REPLY ALL COME ON BUDDY

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 9:35 PM, Robert Van > wrote:


Sorry for the inconvenience but I will be out of the office until
7/9/18, if you need assistance right away please call 920-686-4800
and Tech Support can help you.




Whoever called it gets a cookie.

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Re: [AFMUG] Out of the office

[Ryan Ray]

HA! ROBERT YOU'RE GONNA MAKE US GO BACK TO REPLY ALL COME ON BUDDY

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 9:35 PM, Robert Van  wrote:

> Sorry for the inconvenience but I will be out of the office until 7/9/18,
> if you need assistance right away please call 920-686-4800 and Tech Support
> can help you.
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

[Matt Hoppes]

So what does it mean if all of the batteries have the same voltage

> On Jun 29, 2018, at 21:38, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> 
> Disconnect one terminal of the battery and measure the voltage.  The battery 
> with the shorted cell will have a lower voltage.
> 
> Or, during charging, just put your hand on the batts.  The shorted cell bat 
> will run warmer.
> 
> -Original Message- From: Matt Hoppes
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 7:30 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site
> 
> He’s very reasonable way other than trial and error to determine which 
> battery has the shorted cell in it?
> 
>> On Jun 29, 2018, at 21:21, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>> 
>> Any time you have cells or batts in parallel and one of the cells shorts, 
>> the whole system drops 2 volts.  (if lead acid chemistry).
>> 
>> -Original Message- From: Matt Hoppes
>> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 6:45 PM
>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site
>> 
>> Robert, that was my first thought as well but why would connecting 
>> additional batteries suddenly drop the overall voltage? Do you think that is 
>> just the cells can’t put out enough to charge everything so the overall 
>> output voltage goes down?
>> 
>>> On Jun 29, 2018, at 20:38, Robert  wrote:
>>> 
>>> hosed cell(s)
>>> 
 On 6/29/18 5:12 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
 I’m currently about halfway through troubleshooting a solar site and had 
 to quit for the day.
 I have a site with five 100 amp hour batteries. It is a 12 V site and I 
 have three of the batteries on to wire leads going to the charge 
 controller and two of the batteries on a wire lead going to the charge 
 controller.
 I have been seeing something weird for the past three months where during 
 the day on a sunny day we never hit and plateau at about 12.5 12.7 V like 
 we used to.
 Instead it will get up to about 12.2 or 12.3 and then do this weird saw 
 tooth pattern. Today when I was at the site I disconnected the secondary 
 battery group of three batteries and things went up to 12.5 V and 
 plateaued.
 When I reconnected the three batteries it went down to 12.2 and started 
 doing the weird saw tooth pattern.
 What do those of you who have worked with solar before think? Might this 
 indicate a bad cell or battery? Or some kind of an issue with not enough 
 voltage or amps being pushed into the battery strings? Or something else?
 I should also mention that normally this site is able to maintain itself, 
 but in its current state it maintains a very steady decay until the 
 batteries are finally drained and I’ve had to boost it once with a charger.
>>> 
>>> -- 
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>>> AF@af.afmug.com
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[AFMUG] Fw: Fun with a solar site

[Chuck McCown]

If it is a flooded cell, and you had a hydrometer, the shorted battery will
show higher specific gravity of the electrolyte too due to over charging
while all the others will show a much lower state of charge.

-Original Message- 
From: Chuck McCown

Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 7:54 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

You can avoid this in the future if you have a fuse on each battery.
(This only works with parallel arrays, not series arrays).

When a cell shorts, that battery will have much higher current until all the
other batts discharge into it down to the new voltage.  Just make the fuse
higher by a little bit than the max charging current.

-Original Message- 
From: Matt Hoppes

Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 7:46 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

OK that’s what I was wondering. thanks Chuck, a wealth of information as
always.


On Jun 29, 2018, at 21:38, Chuck McCown  wrote:

Disconnect one terminal of the battery and measure the voltage.  The 
battery with the shorted cell will have a lower voltage.


Or, during charging, just put your hand on the batts.  The shorted cell 
bat will run warmer.


-Original Message- From: Matt Hoppes
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 7:30 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

He’s very reasonable way other than trial and error to determine which 
battery has the shorted cell in it?



On Jun 29, 2018, at 21:21, Chuck McCown  wrote:

Any time you have cells or batts in parallel and one of the cells shorts, 
the whole system drops 2 volts.  (if lead acid chemistry).


-Original Message- From: Matt Hoppes
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 6:45 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

Robert, that was my first thought as well but why would connecting 
additional batteries suddenly drop the overall voltage? Do you think that 
is just the cells can’t put out enough to charge everything so the 
overall output voltage goes down?



On Jun 29, 2018, at 20:38, Robert  wrote:

hosed cell(s)


On 6/29/18 5:12 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
I’m currently about halfway through troubleshooting a solar site and 
had to quit for the day.
I have a site with five 100 amp hour batteries. It is a 12 V site and I 
have three of the batteries on to wire leads going to the charge 
controller and two of the batteries on a wire lead going to the charge 
controller.
I have been seeing something weird for the past three months where 
during the day on a sunny day we never hit and plateau at about 12.5 
12.7 V like we used to.
Instead it will get up to about 12.2 or 12.3 and then do this weird saw 
tooth pattern. Today when I was at the site I disconnected the 
secondary battery group of three batteries and things went up to 12.5 V 
and plateaued.
When I reconnected the three batteries it went down to 12.2 and started 
doing the weird saw tooth pattern.
What do those of you who have worked with solar before think? Might 
this indicate a bad cell or battery? Or some kind of an issue with not 
enough voltage or amps being pushed into the battery strings? Or 
something else?
I should also mention that normally this site is able to maintain 
itself, but in its current state it maintains a very steady decay until 
the batteries are finally drained and I’ve had to boost it once with a 
charger.


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Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

[Chuck McCown]

You can avoid this in the future if you have a fuse on each battery.
(This only works with parallel arrays, not series arrays).

When a cell shorts, that battery will have much higher current until all the 
other batts discharge into it down to the new voltage.  Just make the fuse 
higher by a little bit than the max charging current.


-Original Message- 
From: Matt Hoppes

Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 7:46 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

OK that’s what I was wondering. thanks Chuck, a wealth of information as 
always.



On Jun 29, 2018, at 21:38, Chuck McCown  wrote:

Disconnect one terminal of the battery and measure the voltage.  The 
battery with the shorted cell will have a lower voltage.


Or, during charging, just put your hand on the batts.  The shorted cell 
bat will run warmer.


-Original Message- From: Matt Hoppes
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 7:30 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

He’s very reasonable way other than trial and error to determine which 
battery has the shorted cell in it?



On Jun 29, 2018, at 21:21, Chuck McCown  wrote:

Any time you have cells or batts in parallel and one of the cells shorts, 
the whole system drops 2 volts.  (if lead acid chemistry).


-Original Message- From: Matt Hoppes
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 6:45 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

Robert, that was my first thought as well but why would connecting 
additional batteries suddenly drop the overall voltage? Do you think that 
is just the cells can’t put out enough to charge everything so the 
overall output voltage goes down?



On Jun 29, 2018, at 20:38, Robert  wrote:

hosed cell(s)


On 6/29/18 5:12 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
I’m currently about halfway through troubleshooting a solar site and 
had to quit for the day.
I have a site with five 100 amp hour batteries. It is a 12 V site and I 
have three of the batteries on to wire leads going to the charge 
controller and two of the batteries on a wire lead going to the charge 
controller.
I have been seeing something weird for the past three months where 
during the day on a sunny day we never hit and plateau at about 12.5 
12.7 V like we used to.
Instead it will get up to about 12.2 or 12.3 and then do this weird saw 
tooth pattern. Today when I was at the site I disconnected the 
secondary battery group of three batteries and things went up to 12.5 V 
and plateaued.
When I reconnected the three batteries it went down to 12.2 and started 
doing the weird saw tooth pattern.
What do those of you who have worked with solar before think? Might 
this indicate a bad cell or battery? Or some kind of an issue with not 
enough voltage or amps being pushed into the battery strings? Or 
something else?
I should also mention that normally this site is able to maintain 
itself, but in its current state it maintains a very steady decay until 
the batteries are finally drained and I’ve had to boost it once with a 
charger.


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Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

[Matt Hoppes]

OK that’s what I was wondering. thanks Chuck, a wealth of information as always.

> On Jun 29, 2018, at 21:38, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> 
> Disconnect one terminal of the battery and measure the voltage.  The battery 
> with the shorted cell will have a lower voltage.
> 
> Or, during charging, just put your hand on the batts.  The shorted cell bat 
> will run warmer.
> 
> -Original Message- From: Matt Hoppes
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 7:30 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site
> 
> He’s very reasonable way other than trial and error to determine which 
> battery has the shorted cell in it?
> 
>> On Jun 29, 2018, at 21:21, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>> 
>> Any time you have cells or batts in parallel and one of the cells shorts, 
>> the whole system drops 2 volts.  (if lead acid chemistry).
>> 
>> -Original Message- From: Matt Hoppes
>> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 6:45 PM
>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site
>> 
>> Robert, that was my first thought as well but why would connecting 
>> additional batteries suddenly drop the overall voltage? Do you think that is 
>> just the cells can’t put out enough to charge everything so the overall 
>> output voltage goes down?
>> 
>>> On Jun 29, 2018, at 20:38, Robert  wrote:
>>> 
>>> hosed cell(s)
>>> 
 On 6/29/18 5:12 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
 I’m currently about halfway through troubleshooting a solar site and had 
 to quit for the day.
 I have a site with five 100 amp hour batteries. It is a 12 V site and I 
 have three of the batteries on to wire leads going to the charge 
 controller and two of the batteries on a wire lead going to the charge 
 controller.
 I have been seeing something weird for the past three months where during 
 the day on a sunny day we never hit and plateau at about 12.5 12.7 V like 
 we used to.
 Instead it will get up to about 12.2 or 12.3 and then do this weird saw 
 tooth pattern. Today when I was at the site I disconnected the secondary 
 battery group of three batteries and things went up to 12.5 V and 
 plateaued.
 When I reconnected the three batteries it went down to 12.2 and started 
 doing the weird saw tooth pattern.
 What do those of you who have worked with solar before think? Might this 
 indicate a bad cell or battery? Or some kind of an issue with not enough 
 voltage or amps being pushed into the battery strings? Or something else?
 I should also mention that normally this site is able to maintain itself, 
 but in its current state it maintains a very steady decay until the 
 batteries are finally drained and I’ve had to boost it once with a charger.
>>> 
>>> -- 
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>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

[Chuck McCown]

Disconnect one terminal of the battery and measure the voltage.  The battery 
with the shorted cell will have a lower voltage.


Or, during charging, just put your hand on the batts.  The shorted cell bat 
will run warmer.


-Original Message- 
From: Matt Hoppes

Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 7:30 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

He’s very reasonable way other than trial and error to determine which 
battery has the shorted cell in it?



On Jun 29, 2018, at 21:21, Chuck McCown  wrote:

Any time you have cells or batts in parallel and one of the cells shorts, 
the whole system drops 2 volts.  (if lead acid chemistry).


-Original Message- From: Matt Hoppes
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 6:45 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

Robert, that was my first thought as well but why would connecting 
additional batteries suddenly drop the overall voltage? Do you think that 
is just the cells can’t put out enough to charge everything so the overall 
output voltage goes down?



On Jun 29, 2018, at 20:38, Robert  wrote:

hosed cell(s)


On 6/29/18 5:12 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
I’m currently about halfway through troubleshooting a solar site and had 
to quit for the day.
I have a site with five 100 amp hour batteries. It is a 12 V site and I 
have three of the batteries on to wire leads going to the charge 
controller and two of the batteries on a wire lead going to the charge 
controller.
I have been seeing something weird for the past three months where 
during the day on a sunny day we never hit and plateau at about 12.5 
12.7 V like we used to.
Instead it will get up to about 12.2 or 12.3 and then do this weird saw 
tooth pattern. Today when I was at the site I disconnected the secondary 
battery group of three batteries and things went up to 12.5 V and 
plateaued.
When I reconnected the three batteries it went down to 12.2 and started 
doing the weird saw tooth pattern.
What do those of you who have worked with solar before think? Might this 
indicate a bad cell or battery? Or some kind of an issue with not enough 
voltage or amps being pushed into the battery strings? Or something 
else?
I should also mention that normally this site is able to maintain 
itself, but in its current state it maintains a very steady decay until 
the batteries are finally drained and I’ve had to boost it once with a 
charger.


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Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

[Matt Hoppes]

He’s very reasonable way other than trial and error to determine which battery 
has the shorted cell in it?

> On Jun 29, 2018, at 21:21, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> 
> Any time you have cells or batts in parallel and one of the cells shorts, the 
> whole system drops 2 volts.  (if lead acid chemistry).
> 
> -Original Message- From: Matt Hoppes
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 6:45 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site
> 
> Robert, that was my first thought as well but why would connecting additional 
> batteries suddenly drop the overall voltage? Do you think that is just the 
> cells can’t put out enough to charge everything so the overall output voltage 
> goes down?
> 
>> On Jun 29, 2018, at 20:38, Robert  wrote:
>> 
>> hosed cell(s)
>> 
>>> On 6/29/18 5:12 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>>> I’m currently about halfway through troubleshooting a solar site and had to 
>>> quit for the day.
>>> I have a site with five 100 amp hour batteries. It is a 12 V site and I 
>>> have three of the batteries on to wire leads going to the charge controller 
>>> and two of the batteries on a wire lead going to the charge controller.
>>> I have been seeing something weird for the past three months where during 
>>> the day on a sunny day we never hit and plateau at about 12.5 12.7 V like 
>>> we used to.
>>> Instead it will get up to about 12.2 or 12.3 and then do this weird saw 
>>> tooth pattern. Today when I was at the site I disconnected the secondary 
>>> battery group of three batteries and things went up to 12.5 V and plateaued.
>>> When I reconnected the three batteries it went down to 12.2 and started 
>>> doing the weird saw tooth pattern.
>>> What do those of you who have worked with solar before think? Might this 
>>> indicate a bad cell or battery? Or some kind of an issue with not enough 
>>> voltage or amps being pushed into the battery strings? Or something else?
>>> I should also mention that normally this site is able to maintain itself, 
>>> but in its current state it maintains a very steady decay until the 
>>> batteries are finally drained and I’ve had to boost it once with a charger.
>> 
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Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

[Matt Hoppes]

Well now that’s interesting because that’s exactly what happens. And then the 
whole battery array just will not hold a charge.

> On Jun 29, 2018, at 21:21, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> 
> Any time you have cells or batts in parallel and one of the cells shorts, the 
> whole system drops 2 volts.  (if lead acid chemistry).
> 
> -Original Message- From: Matt Hoppes
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 6:45 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site
> 
> Robert, that was my first thought as well but why would connecting additional 
> batteries suddenly drop the overall voltage? Do you think that is just the 
> cells can’t put out enough to charge everything so the overall output voltage 
> goes down?
> 
>> On Jun 29, 2018, at 20:38, Robert  wrote:
>> 
>> hosed cell(s)
>> 
>>> On 6/29/18 5:12 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>>> I’m currently about halfway through troubleshooting a solar site and had to 
>>> quit for the day.
>>> I have a site with five 100 amp hour batteries. It is a 12 V site and I 
>>> have three of the batteries on to wire leads going to the charge controller 
>>> and two of the batteries on a wire lead going to the charge controller.
>>> I have been seeing something weird for the past three months where during 
>>> the day on a sunny day we never hit and plateau at about 12.5 12.7 V like 
>>> we used to.
>>> Instead it will get up to about 12.2 or 12.3 and then do this weird saw 
>>> tooth pattern. Today when I was at the site I disconnected the secondary 
>>> battery group of three batteries and things went up to 12.5 V and plateaued.
>>> When I reconnected the three batteries it went down to 12.2 and started 
>>> doing the weird saw tooth pattern.
>>> What do those of you who have worked with solar before think? Might this 
>>> indicate a bad cell or battery? Or some kind of an issue with not enough 
>>> voltage or amps being pushed into the battery strings? Or something else?
>>> I should also mention that normally this site is able to maintain itself, 
>>> but in its current state it maintains a very steady decay until the 
>>> batteries are finally drained and I’ve had to boost it once with a charger.
>> 
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Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

[Chuck McCown]

Any time you have cells or batts in parallel and one of the cells shorts, 
the whole system drops 2 volts.  (if lead acid chemistry).


-Original Message- 
From: Matt Hoppes

Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 6:45 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

Robert, that was my first thought as well but why would connecting 
additional batteries suddenly drop the overall voltage? Do you think that is 
just the cells can’t put out enough to charge everything so the overall 
output voltage goes down?



On Jun 29, 2018, at 20:38, Robert  wrote:

hosed cell(s)


On 6/29/18 5:12 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
I’m currently about halfway through troubleshooting a solar site and had 
to quit for the day.
I have a site with five 100 amp hour batteries. It is a 12 V site and I 
have three of the batteries on to wire leads going to the charge 
controller and two of the batteries on a wire lead going to the charge 
controller.
I have been seeing something weird for the past three months where during 
the day on a sunny day we never hit and plateau at about 12.5 12.7 V like 
we used to.
Instead it will get up to about 12.2 or 12.3 and then do this weird saw 
tooth pattern. Today when I was at the site I disconnected the secondary 
battery group of three batteries and things went up to 12.5 V and 
plateaued.
When I reconnected the three batteries it went down to 12.2 and started 
doing the weird saw tooth pattern.
What do those of you who have worked with solar before think? Might this 
indicate a bad cell or battery? Or some kind of an issue with not enough 
voltage or amps being pushed into the battery strings? Or something else?
I should also mention that normally this site is able to maintain itself, 
but in its current state it maintains a very steady decay until the 
batteries are finally drained and I’ve had to boost it once with a 
charger.


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Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

[Matt Hoppes]

Robert, that was my first thought as well but why would connecting additional 
batteries suddenly drop the overall voltage? Do you think that is just the 
cells can’t put out enough to charge everything so the overall output voltage 
goes down?

> On Jun 29, 2018, at 20:38, Robert  wrote:
> 
> hosed cell(s)
> 
>> On 6/29/18 5:12 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>> I’m currently about halfway through troubleshooting a solar site and had to 
>> quit for the day.
>> I have a site with five 100 amp hour batteries. It is a 12 V site and I have 
>> three of the batteries on to wire leads going to the charge controller and 
>> two of the batteries on a wire lead going to the charge controller.
>> I have been seeing something weird for the past three months where during 
>> the day on a sunny day we never hit and plateau at about 12.5 12.7 V like we 
>> used to.
>> Instead it will get up to about 12.2 or 12.3 and then do this weird saw 
>> tooth pattern. Today when I was at the site I disconnected the secondary 
>> battery group of three batteries and things went up to 12.5 V and plateaued.
>> When I reconnected the three batteries it went down to 12.2 and started 
>> doing the weird saw tooth pattern.
>> What do those of you who have worked with solar before think? Might this 
>> indicate a bad cell or battery? Or some kind of an issue with not enough 
>> voltage or amps being pushed into the battery strings? Or something else?
>> I should also mention that normally this site is able to maintain itself, 
>> but in its current state it maintains a very steady decay until the 
>> batteries are finally drained and I’ve had to boost it once with a charger.
> 
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Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

[Robert]

hosed cell(s)

On 6/29/18 5:12 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

I’m currently about halfway through troubleshooting a solar site and had to 
quit for the day.

I have a site with five 100 amp hour batteries. It is a 12 V site and I have 
three of the batteries on to wire leads going to the charge controller and two 
of the batteries on a wire lead going to the charge controller.

I have been seeing something weird for the past three months where during the 
day on a sunny day we never hit and plateau at about 12.5 12.7 V like we used 
to.

Instead it will get up to about 12.2 or 12.3 and then do this weird saw tooth 
pattern. Today when I was at the site I disconnected the secondary battery 
group of three batteries and things went up to 12.5 V and plateaued.

When I reconnected the three batteries it went down to 12.2 and started doing 
the weird saw tooth pattern.

What do those of you who have worked with solar before think? Might this 
indicate a bad cell or battery? Or some kind of an issue with not enough 
voltage or amps being pushed into the battery strings? Or something else?

I should also mention that normally this site is able to maintain itself, but 
in its current state it maintains a very steady decay until the batteries are 
finally drained and I’ve had to boost it once with a charger.



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Re: [AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

[Chuck McCown]

Can you post a schematic?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 29, 2018, at 6:12 PM, Matt Hoppes  
> wrote:
> 
> I’m currently about halfway through troubleshooting a solar site and had to 
> quit for the day.
> 
> I have a site with five 100 amp hour batteries. It is a 12 V site and I have 
> three of the batteries on to wire leads going to the charge controller and 
> two of the batteries on a wire lead going to the charge controller.
> 
> I have been seeing something weird for the past three months where during the 
> day on a sunny day we never hit and plateau at about 12.5 12.7 V like we used 
> to.
> 
> Instead it will get up to about 12.2 or 12.3 and then do this weird saw tooth 
> pattern. Today when I was at the site I disconnected the secondary battery 
> group of three batteries and things went up to 12.5 V and plateaued.
> 
> When I reconnected the three batteries it went down to 12.2 and started doing 
> the weird saw tooth pattern.
> 
> What do those of you who have worked with solar before think? Might this 
> indicate a bad cell or battery? Or some kind of an issue with not enough 
> voltage or amps being pushed into the battery strings? Or something else?
> 
> I should also mention that normally this site is able to maintain itself, but 
> in its current state it maintains a very steady decay until the batteries are 
> finally drained and I’ve had to boost it once with a charger.
> 
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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Re: [AFMUG] How ACH works

[Robert]

whereasmost other forms of payment are not.  Banks can reach into most 
forms of payment and reverse them on their whim, checks are another 
story when they are written on a valid account and accepted by the bank. 
  All that may have yet another iteration with the last changes by 
congress.   They changes before that were very fair to both sides..


On 6/29/18 6:52 AM, Larry Smith wrote:

Checks are a very outdated method for payment


May be, but under US Law (Uniform Commercial Code)
a check is a "promisary note" and as such a contract to pay.
You can easily take someone to court over a bounced or bad
check.



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[AFMUG] Fun with a solar site

[Matt Hoppes]

I’m currently about halfway through troubleshooting a solar site and had to 
quit for the day.

I have a site with five 100 amp hour batteries. It is a 12 V site and I have 
three of the batteries on to wire leads going to the charge controller and two 
of the batteries on a wire lead going to the charge controller.

I have been seeing something weird for the past three months where during the 
day on a sunny day we never hit and plateau at about 12.5 12.7 V like we used 
to.

Instead it will get up to about 12.2 or 12.3 and then do this weird saw tooth 
pattern. Today when I was at the site I disconnected the secondary battery 
group of three batteries and things went up to 12.5 V and plateaued.

When I reconnected the three batteries it went down to 12.2 and started doing 
the weird saw tooth pattern.

What do those of you who have worked with solar before think? Might this 
indicate a bad cell or battery? Or some kind of an issue with not enough 
voltage or amps being pushed into the battery strings? Or something else?

I should also mention that normally this site is able to maintain itself, but 
in its current state it maintains a very steady decay until the batteries are 
finally drained and I’ve had to boost it once with a charger.

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Re: [AFMUG] Apex9 cable on POPs

[Jerry Head]

The new APEX9 is re-branded Shireen.

On 6/25/2018 1:08 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
We used  that stuff for everything for awhile... as far as I can 
remember, we never had any problems with it to speak of.


On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 12:53 PM, Steve Jones 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Is this stuff pretty reliable?
We normally use BBDGE but had to run some EPMP APs in an emergency
site conversion on the apex9. Im just wondering if its cool to
leave it or if I should convert

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Re: [AFMUG] How ACH works

[Cameron Crum]

That sounds more reasonable. If it's all automated, I can see it being a
big money saver, but if you are a small operation and have to have someone
checking on it every day, it may be more of a time and convenience issue. I
haven't looked at Freeside in quite some time, but I don't think it did
this out of the box back then.


On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 10:33 AM, Lewis Bergman 
wrote:

> I checked on this with the guy who actually did it for me. It turns out
> that our gateway and our bank turned over our ACH rejects to a collection
> deal automatically. Maybe that is why our problems were so low. They would
> start collections immediately. We had a ton of businesses on it as well.
> The software was Freeside and we had customer work done all the time on
> that tar trap mess of a program. I could swear that we had some API or
> import for that. Maybe I am dreaming. Maybe we had some clerk somewhere
> typing away.
>
> I do remember that we averaged only one or two ACH rejects a month. The
> numbers I quote aren't made up as they are approximates from our billing
> back then. Once the numbers get decently large you would have to have a TON
> of issues to make up the fee differences between ACH and CC. It literally
> paid for 2 installers and a supervisor's pay.
>
> On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 9:23 AM Cameron Crum  wrote:
>
>> I'm curious how your software knew of the bounced ach? I know with IPPay
>> they didn't have a way to report this back to the software until fairly
>> recently. What processor were you using? Or was it just someone checking
>> every day as part of their job?
>>
>>
>> Cameron
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Larry Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> > Checks are a very outdated method for payment
>>>
>>> May be, but under US Law (Uniform Commercial Code)
>>> a check is a "promisary note" and as such a contract to pay.
>>> You can easily take someone to court over a bounced or bad
>>> check.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Larry Smith
>>> lesm...@ecsis.net
>>>
>>> On Fri June 29 2018 08:43, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>>> > Oh yes, we have people complain all the time that they went to the
>>> bank and
>>> > sent a check out but we never got it for another two weeks or so.
>>> >
>>> > We also have people who say that their checks got lost in the mail or
>>> we
>>> > get an envelope that was never sealed.
>>> >
>>> > Yet another reason why I tell people that the credit card payment
>>> method is
>>> > much more secure than checks.
>>> >
>>> > Checks are a very outdated method for payment
>>> >
>>> > > On Jun 29, 2018, at 09:38, Lewis Bergman 
>>> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > My cost of doing business was lower, which is why I did it. Maybe
>>> yours
>>> > > isn't. I will say it was a management push on my part to enforce
>>> policies
>>> > > that got everyone on ACH if possible. ACH was free, CC wasn't. As a
>>> > > result, maybe we had a more general cross section of our customer
>>> base on
>>> > > ACH that you so we didn't huge differences. And I guess that's why
>>> people
>>> > > do it differently. Your experience wasn't mine. But if mine was 5
>>> times
>>> > > worse I would still find it compelling from a monetary viewpoint.
>>> But, it
>>> > > really wasn't an issue for us from the PITA point of view because the
>>> > > software handled most of it. Maybe your customer base was
>>> significantly
>>> > > different than mine. We also got a big kick in ACH enrollment
>>> because a
>>> > > bunch of the banks in our area used the same "Bill Pay" check
>>> printing
>>> > > service. As we got one envelope with 150 checks in it for different
>>> > > accounts, all listing something stupid like ISP as the account
>>> number,
>>> > > and on top of that, payment was made late. The inevitable calls came
>>> in
>>> > > about why they were charged late fees, they scheduled it payed a week
>>> > > ahead of deadlines, etc. We would have to explain that we could show
>>> them
>>> > > the postmark, the date on the check, etc. Customer would say "they
>>> took
>>> > > the money out of my account on ...". Our pitch was always that if
>>> they
>>> > > let us pull the money via ACH we wouldn't charge them and they could
>>> > > never be assessed a late fee if we did the ACH. That got a bunch. But
>>> > > again, our experiences seem to be quite different.
>>> > >
>>> > > I just put the possibility of contested CC out there. I don't think
>>> we
>>> > > ever had anyone contest a charge. Maybe once on an install. I don't
>>> > > remember it if we did. But in my experience, that possibility was
>>> roughly
>>> > > the same as my chances of losing more money doing ACH than CC.
>>> > >
>>> > > In the end, that is what's great about this place right? I don't
>>> have to
>>> > > do it like you and vice versa.
>>> > >
>>> > >> On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 8:06 AM Matt Hoppes
>>> > >>  wrote: It’s just the cost of
>>> doing
>>> > >> business.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> And yes they do have 60 days to contest it but most people don’t.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> We have a small handful 

Re: [AFMUG] How ACH works

[Adam Moffett]

I think your comment about a "general cross section" of customers hits 
the nail on the head as to why there are different experiences on this.  
The demographics of the area may play a role as well.  If you let the 
customer choose between ACH or CC, they'll choose CC because it's safer 
and more convenient for them.  The person who chooses ACH when given the 
option is someone who can't get credit cards or someone who has learned 
how to play games with checks.


Just my 2c.  I do believe you that ACH was cheaper in the long run, but 
back when I was more directly involved in billing ACH rejections were a 
very regular occurrence and the service we used charged a fee for each 
incident.  We passed the fee onto the customer and most of them would 
find another way to pay after the first couple times.  It was more about 
not wanting to deal with the hassle than anything else.  CC either 
declined or passed and that was it.  One and done.  I only recall one 
guy who disputed a CC charge.



-- Original Message --
From: "Lewis Bergman" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Sent: 6/29/2018 9:38:05 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] How ACH works

My cost of doing business was lower, which is why I did it. Maybe yours 
isn't. I will say it was a management push on my part to enforce 
policies that got everyone on ACH if possible. ACH was free, CC wasn't. 
As a result, maybe we had a more general cross section of our customer 
base on ACH that you so we didn't huge differences.
And I guess that's why people do it differently. Your experience wasn't 
mine. But if mine was 5 times worse I would still find it compelling 
from a monetary viewpoint. But, it really wasn't an issue for us from 
the PITA point of view because the software handled most of it. Maybe 
your customer base was significantly different than mine. We also got a 
big kick in ACH enrollment because a bunch of the banks in our area 
used the same "Bill Pay" check printing service. As we got one envelope 
with 150 checks in it for different accounts, all listing something 
stupid like ISP as the account number, and on top of that, payment was 
made late. The inevitable calls came in about why they were charged 
late fees, they scheduled it payed a week ahead of deadlines, etc. We 
would have to explain that we could show them the postmark, the date on 
the check, etc. Customer would say "they took the money out of my 
account on ...". Our pitch was always that if they let us pull the 
money via ACH we wouldn't charge them and they could never be assessed 
a late fee if we did the ACH. That got a bunch. But again, our 
experiences seem to be quite different.


I just put the possibility of contested CC out there. I don't think we 
ever had anyone contest a charge. Maybe once on an install. I don't 
remember it if we did. But in my experience, that possibility was 
roughly the same as my chances of losing more money doing ACH than CC.


In the end, that is what's great about this place right? I don't have 
to do it like you and vice versa.


On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 8:06 AM Matt Hoppes 
 wrote:

It’s just the cost of doing business.

And yes they do have 60 days to contest it but most people don’t.

We have a small handful of ACH and the number of bounced transactions 
that occurred there is much much much higher than anyone contesting a 
credit card transactions.


On Jun 29, 2018, at 08:21, Lewis Bergman  
wrote:


If you can't figure it out maybe math is the issue. 25 cents for ACH. 
CC is 2.75% and up. If you are doing 400k a month in CC that adds up 
to about 10k more in fees. In all the time we did ACH we probably 
lost an additional 3k that we would not have lost with CC. So 3k 
in 10 years is less than 10k in one month.


So why do people still do it...they can do simple arithmetic?

You do raise some valid points. If you have to have the money and 
can't wait two days and so want to pay an effective annual interest 
rate that is enormous.


If you are drafting the routing and account info is your customers 
not yours.


I had someone fraudulently present a check for 92k on my account. 
Maybe that proves your point, but the bank credited my account in a 
couple of weeks and it really wasn't a big deal to get done. Only 
time it has ever happened. So again, the math tells me even if that 
happened every year one time instead of once in twenty years, and I 
didn't get my money back, I would still be better off using ACH.


But, to each his own. I know a lot of people don't like the 2 day 
settlement period for ACH. in truth, CC is longer. You have what... 
60 days for someone to contest a charge. While they do it the bank 
takes the money back. Not that that is a big risk. Probably about the 
same as someone's ACH not clearing.


On Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 9:39 PM Matt Hoppes 
 wrote:

ACH is slow (2 days to clear)
ACH is insecure (bank account numbers can be gotten off checks, etc)
ACH can wipe you out (if someone gets those account numbers)

Re: [AFMUG] How ACH works

[Cameron Crum]

Yeah, propay has had it for a while I know. I was just curious about what
Lewis was using. That was a few years back.

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Adair Winter 
wrote:

> Propay and powercode does auto ach bounce back
>
> On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 9:23 AM Cameron Crum  wrote:
>
>> I'm curious how your software knew of the bounced ach? I know with IPPay
>> they didn't have a way to report this back to the software until fairly
>> recently. What processor were you using? Or was it just someone checking
>> every day as part of their job?
>>
>> Cameron
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Larry Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> > Checks are a very outdated method for payment
>>>
>>> May be, but under US Law (Uniform Commercial Code)
>>> a check is a "promisary note" and as such a contract to pay.
>>> You can easily take someone to court over a bounced or bad
>>> check.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Larry Smith
>>> lesm...@ecsis.net
>>>
>>> On Fri June 29 2018 08:43, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>>> > Oh yes, we have people complain all the time that they went to the
>>> bank and
>>> > sent a check out but we never got it for another two weeks or so.
>>> >
>>> > We also have people who say that their checks got lost in the mail or
>>> we
>>> > get an envelope that was never sealed.
>>> >
>>> > Yet another reason why I tell people that the credit card payment
>>> method is
>>> > much more secure than checks.
>>> >
>>> > Checks are a very outdated method for payment
>>> >
>>> > > On Jun 29, 2018, at 09:38, Lewis Bergman 
>>> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > My cost of doing business was lower, which is why I did it. Maybe
>>> yours
>>> > > isn't. I will say it was a management push on my part to enforce
>>> policies
>>> > > that got everyone on ACH if possible. ACH was free, CC wasn't. As a
>>> > > result, maybe we had a more general cross section of our customer
>>> base on
>>> > > ACH that you so we didn't huge differences. And I guess that's why
>>> people
>>> > > do it differently. Your experience wasn't mine. But if mine was 5
>>> times
>>> > > worse I would still find it compelling from a monetary viewpoint.
>>> But, it
>>> > > really wasn't an issue for us from the PITA point of view because the
>>> > > software handled most of it. Maybe your customer base was
>>> significantly
>>> > > different than mine. We also got a big kick in ACH enrollment
>>> because a
>>> > > bunch of the banks in our area used the same "Bill Pay" check
>>> printing
>>> > > service. As we got one envelope with 150 checks in it for different
>>> > > accounts, all listing something stupid like ISP as the account
>>> number,
>>> > > and on top of that, payment was made late. The inevitable calls came
>>> in
>>> > > about why they were charged late fees, they scheduled it payed a week
>>> > > ahead of deadlines, etc. We would have to explain that we could show
>>> them
>>> > > the postmark, the date on the check, etc. Customer would say "they
>>> took
>>> > > the money out of my account on ...". Our pitch was always that if
>>> they
>>> > > let us pull the money via ACH we wouldn't charge them and they could
>>> > > never be assessed a late fee if we did the ACH. That got a bunch. But
>>> > > again, our experiences seem to be quite different.
>>> > >
>>> > > I just put the possibility of contested CC out there. I don't think
>>> we
>>> > > ever had anyone contest a charge. Maybe once on an install. I don't
>>> > > remember it if we did. But in my experience, that possibility was
>>> roughly
>>> > > the same as my chances of losing more money doing ACH than CC.
>>> > >
>>> > > In the end, that is what's great about this place right? I don't
>>> have to
>>> > > do it like you and vice versa.
>>> > >
>>> > >> On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 8:06 AM Matt Hoppes
>>> > >>  wrote: It’s just the cost of
>>> doing
>>> > >> business.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> And yes they do have 60 days to contest it but most people don’t.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> We have a small handful of ACH and the number of bounced
>>> transactions
>>> > >> that occurred there is much much much higher than anyone contesting
>>> a
>>> > >> credit card transactions.
>>> > >>
>>> > >>> On Jun 29, 2018, at 08:21, Lewis Bergman 
>>> > >>> wrote:
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> If you can't figure it out maybe math is the issue. 25 cents for
>>> ACH.
>>> > >>> CC is 2.75% and up. If you are doing 400k a month in CC that adds
>>> up to
>>> > >>> about 10k more in fees. In all the time we did ACH we probably
>>> lost an
>>> > >>> additional 3k that we would not have lost with CC. So 3k in 10
>>> > >>> years is less than 10k in one month.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> So why do people still do it...they can do simple arithmetic?
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> You do raise some valid points. If you have to have the money and
>>> can't
>>> > >>> wait two days and so want to pay an effective annual interest rate
>>> that
>>> > >>> is enormous.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> If you are drafting the routing and account info is your customers
>>> not
>>> > >>> yours.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> I 

Re: [AFMUG] How ACH works

[Cameron Crum]

 I'm curious how your software knew of the bounced ach? I know with IPPay
they didn't have a way to report this back to the software until fairly
recently. What processor were you using? Or was it just someone checking
every day as part of their job?

Cameron

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Larry Smith  wrote:

> > Checks are a very outdated method for payment
>
> May be, but under US Law (Uniform Commercial Code)
> a check is a "promisary note" and as such a contract to pay.
> You can easily take someone to court over a bounced or bad
> check.
>
> --
> Larry Smith
> lesm...@ecsis.net
>
> On Fri June 29 2018 08:43, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> > Oh yes, we have people complain all the time that they went to the bank
> and
> > sent a check out but we never got it for another two weeks or so.
> >
> > We also have people who say that their checks got lost in the mail or we
> > get an envelope that was never sealed.
> >
> > Yet another reason why I tell people that the credit card payment method
> is
> > much more secure than checks.
> >
> > Checks are a very outdated method for payment
> >
> > > On Jun 29, 2018, at 09:38, Lewis Bergman 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > My cost of doing business was lower, which is why I did it. Maybe yours
> > > isn't. I will say it was a management push on my part to enforce
> policies
> > > that got everyone on ACH if possible. ACH was free, CC wasn't. As a
> > > result, maybe we had a more general cross section of our customer base
> on
> > > ACH that you so we didn't huge differences. And I guess that's why
> people
> > > do it differently. Your experience wasn't mine. But if mine was 5 times
> > > worse I would still find it compelling from a monetary viewpoint. But,
> it
> > > really wasn't an issue for us from the PITA point of view because the
> > > software handled most of it. Maybe your customer base was significantly
> > > different than mine. We also got a big kick in ACH enrollment because a
> > > bunch of the banks in our area used the same "Bill Pay" check printing
> > > service. As we got one envelope with 150 checks in it for different
> > > accounts, all listing something stupid like ISP as the account number,
> > > and on top of that, payment was made late. The inevitable calls came in
> > > about why they were charged late fees, they scheduled it payed a week
> > > ahead of deadlines, etc. We would have to explain that we could show
> them
> > > the postmark, the date on the check, etc. Customer would say "they took
> > > the money out of my account on ...". Our pitch was always that if they
> > > let us pull the money via ACH we wouldn't charge them and they could
> > > never be assessed a late fee if we did the ACH. That got a bunch. But
> > > again, our experiences seem to be quite different.
> > >
> > > I just put the possibility of contested CC out there. I don't think we
> > > ever had anyone contest a charge. Maybe once on an install. I don't
> > > remember it if we did. But in my experience, that possibility was
> roughly
> > > the same as my chances of losing more money doing ACH than CC.
> > >
> > > In the end, that is what's great about this place right? I don't have
> to
> > > do it like you and vice versa.
> > >
> > >> On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 8:06 AM Matt Hoppes
> > >>  wrote: It’s just the cost of
> doing
> > >> business.
> > >>
> > >> And yes they do have 60 days to contest it but most people don’t.
> > >>
> > >> We have a small handful of ACH and the number of bounced transactions
> > >> that occurred there is much much much higher than anyone contesting a
> > >> credit card transactions.
> > >>
> > >>> On Jun 29, 2018, at 08:21, Lewis Bergman 
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> If you can't figure it out maybe math is the issue. 25 cents for ACH.
> > >>> CC is 2.75% and up. If you are doing 400k a month in CC that adds up
> to
> > >>> about 10k more in fees. In all the time we did ACH we probably lost
> an
> > >>> additional 3k that we would not have lost with CC. So 3k in 10
> > >>> years is less than 10k in one month.
> > >>>
> > >>> So why do people still do it...they can do simple arithmetic?
> > >>>
> > >>> You do raise some valid points. If you have to have the money and
> can't
> > >>> wait two days and so want to pay an effective annual interest rate
> that
> > >>> is enormous.
> > >>>
> > >>> If you are drafting the routing and account info is your customers
> not
> > >>> yours.
> > >>>
> > >>> I had someone fraudulently present a check for 92k on my account.
> Maybe
> > >>> that proves your point, but the bank credited my account in a couple
> of
> > >>> weeks and it really wasn't a big deal to get done. Only time it has
> > >>> ever happened. So again, the math tells me even if that happened
> every
> > >>> year one time instead of once in twenty years, and I didn't get my
> > >>> money back, I would still be better off using ACH.
> > >>>
> > >>> But, to each his own. I know a lot of people don't like the 2 day
> > >>> settlement period for ACH. 

Re: [AFMUG] How ACH works

[Larry Smith]

> Checks are a very outdated method for payment

May be, but under US Law (Uniform Commercial Code)
a check is a "promisary note" and as such a contract to pay.
You can easily take someone to court over a bounced or bad
check.

-- 
Larry Smith
lesm...@ecsis.net

On Fri June 29 2018 08:43, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> Oh yes, we have people complain all the time that they went to the bank and
> sent a check out but we never got it for another two weeks or so.
>
> We also have people who say that their checks got lost in the mail or we
> get an envelope that was never sealed.
>
> Yet another reason why I tell people that the credit card payment method is
> much more secure than checks.
>
> Checks are a very outdated method for payment
>
> > On Jun 29, 2018, at 09:38, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
> >
> > My cost of doing business was lower, which is why I did it. Maybe yours
> > isn't. I will say it was a management push on my part to enforce policies
> > that got everyone on ACH if possible. ACH was free, CC wasn't. As a
> > result, maybe we had a more general cross section of our customer base on
> > ACH that you so we didn't huge differences. And I guess that's why people
> > do it differently. Your experience wasn't mine. But if mine was 5 times
> > worse I would still find it compelling from a monetary viewpoint. But, it
> > really wasn't an issue for us from the PITA point of view because the
> > software handled most of it. Maybe your customer base was significantly
> > different than mine. We also got a big kick in ACH enrollment because a
> > bunch of the banks in our area used the same "Bill Pay" check printing
> > service. As we got one envelope with 150 checks in it for different
> > accounts, all listing something stupid like ISP as the account number,
> > and on top of that, payment was made late. The inevitable calls came in
> > about why they were charged late fees, they scheduled it payed a week
> > ahead of deadlines, etc. We would have to explain that we could show them
> > the postmark, the date on the check, etc. Customer would say "they took
> > the money out of my account on ...". Our pitch was always that if they
> > let us pull the money via ACH we wouldn't charge them and they could
> > never be assessed a late fee if we did the ACH. That got a bunch. But
> > again, our experiences seem to be quite different.
> >
> > I just put the possibility of contested CC out there. I don't think we
> > ever had anyone contest a charge. Maybe once on an install. I don't
> > remember it if we did. But in my experience, that possibility was roughly
> > the same as my chances of losing more money doing ACH than CC.
> >
> > In the end, that is what's great about this place right? I don't have to
> > do it like you and vice versa.
> >
> >> On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 8:06 AM Matt Hoppes
> >>  wrote: It’s just the cost of doing
> >> business.
> >>
> >> And yes they do have 60 days to contest it but most people don’t.
> >>
> >> We have a small handful of ACH and the number of bounced transactions
> >> that occurred there is much much much higher than anyone contesting a
> >> credit card transactions.
> >>
> >>> On Jun 29, 2018, at 08:21, Lewis Bergman 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> If you can't figure it out maybe math is the issue. 25 cents for ACH.
> >>> CC is 2.75% and up. If you are doing 400k a month in CC that adds up to
> >>> about 10k more in fees. In all the time we did ACH we probably lost an
> >>> additional 3k that we would not have lost with CC. So 3k in 10
> >>> years is less than 10k in one month.
> >>>
> >>> So why do people still do it...they can do simple arithmetic?
> >>>
> >>> You do raise some valid points. If you have to have the money and can't
> >>> wait two days and so want to pay an effective annual interest rate that
> >>> is enormous.
> >>>
> >>> If you are drafting the routing and account info is your customers not
> >>> yours.
> >>>
> >>> I had someone fraudulently present a check for 92k on my account. Maybe
> >>> that proves your point, but the bank credited my account in a couple of
> >>> weeks and it really wasn't a big deal to get done. Only time it has
> >>> ever happened. So again, the math tells me even if that happened every
> >>> year one time instead of once in twenty years, and I didn't get my
> >>> money back, I would still be better off using ACH.
> >>>
> >>> But, to each his own. I know a lot of people don't like the 2 day
> >>> settlement period for ACH. in truth, CC is longer. You have what... 60
> >>> days for someone to contest a charge. While they do it the bank takes
> >>> the money back. Not that that is a big risk. Probably about the same as
> >>> someone's ACH not clearing.
> >>>
>  On Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 9:39 PM Matt Hoppes
>   wrote: ACH is slow (2 days to
>  clear)
>  ACH is insecure (bank account numbers can be gotten off checks, etc)
>  ACH can wipe you out (if someone gets those account numbers)
>  ACH does not provide real-time-feedback 

Re: [AFMUG] How ACH works

[Matt Hoppes]

Oh yes, we have people complain all the time that they went to the bank and 
sent a check out but we never got it for another two weeks or so.

We also have people who say that their checks got lost in the mail or we get an 
envelope that was never sealed.

Yet another reason why I tell people that the credit card payment method is 
much more secure than checks.

Checks are a very outdated method for payment

> On Jun 29, 2018, at 09:38, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
> 
> My cost of doing business was lower, which is why I did it. Maybe yours 
> isn't. I will say it was a management push on my part to enforce policies 
> that got everyone on ACH if possible. ACH was free, CC wasn't. As a result, 
> maybe we had a more general cross section of our customer base on ACH that 
> you so we didn't huge differences.
> And I guess that's why people do it differently. Your experience wasn't mine. 
> But if mine was 5 times worse I would still find it compelling from a 
> monetary viewpoint. But, it really wasn't an issue for us from the PITA point 
> of view because the software handled most of it. Maybe your customer base was 
> significantly different than mine. We also got a big kick in ACH enrollment 
> because a bunch of the banks in our area used the same "Bill Pay" check 
> printing service. As we got one envelope with 150 checks in it for different 
> accounts, all listing something stupid like ISP as the account number, and on 
> top of that, payment was made late. The inevitable calls came in about why 
> they were charged late fees, they scheduled it payed a week ahead of 
> deadlines, etc. We would have to explain that we could show them the 
> postmark, the date on the check, etc. Customer would say "they took the money 
> out of my account on ...". Our pitch was always that if they let us pull the 
> money via ACH we wouldn't charge them and they could never be assessed a late 
> fee if we did the ACH. That got a bunch. But again, our experiences seem to 
> be quite different.
> 
> I just put the possibility of contested CC out there. I don't think we ever 
> had anyone contest a charge. Maybe once on an install. I don't remember it if 
> we did. But in my experience, that possibility was roughly the same as my 
> chances of losing more money doing ACH than CC.
> 
> In the end, that is what's great about this place right? I don't have to do 
> it like you and vice versa.
> 
>> On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 8:06 AM Matt Hoppes 
>>  wrote:
>> It’s just the cost of doing business.
>> 
>> And yes they do have 60 days to contest it but most people don’t.
>> 
>> We have a small handful of ACH and the number of bounced transactions that 
>> occurred there is much much much higher than anyone contesting a credit card 
>> transactions.
>> 
>>> On Jun 29, 2018, at 08:21, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
>>> 
>>> If you can't figure it out maybe math is the issue. 25 cents for ACH. CC is 
>>> 2.75% and up. If you are doing 400k a month in CC that adds up to about 10k 
>>> more in fees. In all the time we did ACH we probably lost an additional 3k 
>>> that we would not have lost with CC. So 3k in 10 years is less than 10k 
>>> in one month. 
>>> 
>>> So why do people still do it...they can do simple arithmetic? 
>>> 
>>> You do raise some valid points. If you have to have the money and can't 
>>> wait two days and so want to pay an effective annual interest rate that is 
>>> enormous. 
>>> 
>>> If you are drafting the routing and account info is your customers not 
>>> yours. 
>>> 
>>> I had someone fraudulently present a check for 92k on my account. Maybe 
>>> that proves your point, but the bank credited my account in a couple of 
>>> weeks and it really wasn't a big deal to get done. Only time it has ever 
>>> happened. So again, the math tells me even if that happened every year one 
>>> time instead of once in twenty years, and I didn't get my money back, I 
>>> would still be better off using ACH. 
>>> 
>>> But, to each his own. I know a lot of people don't like the 2 day 
>>> settlement period for ACH. in truth, CC is longer. You have what... 60 days 
>>> for someone to contest a charge. While they do it the bank takes the money 
>>> back. Not that that is a big risk. Probably about the same as someone's ACH 
>>> not clearing. 
>>> 
 On Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 9:39 PM Matt Hoppes 
  wrote:
 ACH is slow (2 days to clear)
 ACH is insecure (bank account numbers can be gotten off checks, etc)
 ACH can wipe you out (if someone gets those account numbers)
 ACH does not provide real-time-feedback (may not know things didn’t work 
 until it bounces two days later)
 
 Why anyone still uses ACH or checks or beyond me. 
 
 A credit card is:
 Instant (funds transfer immediately, you instantly know if the funds are 
 coming or not)
 
 Secure (there is a CVV code required - just having the number gets you 
 nowhere)
 
 Safe (if someone does steal your card they won’t wipe 

Re: [AFMUG] How ACH works

[Lewis Bergman]

My cost of doing business was lower, which is why I did it. Maybe yours
isn't. I will say it was a management push on my part to enforce policies
that got everyone on ACH if possible. ACH was free, CC wasn't. As a result,
maybe we had a more general cross section of our customer base on ACH that
you so we didn't huge differences.
And I guess that's why people do it differently. Your experience wasn't
mine. But if mine was 5 times worse I would still find it compelling from a
monetary viewpoint. But, it really wasn't an issue for us from the PITA
point of view because the software handled most of it. Maybe your customer
base was significantly different than mine. We also got a big kick in ACH
enrollment because a bunch of the banks in our area used the same "Bill
Pay" check printing service. As we got one envelope with 150 checks in it
for different accounts, all listing something stupid like ISP as the
account number, and on top of that, payment was made late. The inevitable
calls came in about why they were charged late fees, they scheduled it
payed a week ahead of deadlines, etc. We would have to explain that we
could show them the postmark, the date on the check, etc. Customer would
say "they took the money out of my account on ...". Our pitch was always
that if they let us pull the money via ACH we wouldn't charge them and they
could never be assessed a late fee if we did the ACH. That got a bunch. But
again, our experiences seem to be quite different.

I just put the possibility of contested CC out there. I don't think we ever
had anyone contest a charge. Maybe once on an install. I don't remember it
if we did. But in my experience, that possibility was roughly the same as
my chances of losing more money doing ACH than CC.

In the end, that is what's great about this place right? I don't have to do
it like you and vice versa.

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 8:06 AM Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:

> It’s just the cost of doing business.
>
> And yes they do have 60 days to contest it but most people don’t.
>
> We have a small handful of ACH and the number of bounced transactions that
> occurred there is much much much higher than anyone contesting a credit
> card transactions.
>
> On Jun 29, 2018, at 08:21, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
>
> If you can't figure it out maybe math is the issue. 25 cents for ACH. CC
> is 2.75% and up. If you are doing 400k a month in CC that adds up to about
> 10k more in fees. In all the time we did ACH we probably lost an additional
> 3k that we would not have lost with CC. So 3k in 10 years is less than
> 10k in one month.
>
> So why do people still do it...they can do simple arithmetic?
>
> You do raise some valid points. If you have to have the money and can't
> wait two days and so want to pay an effective annual interest rate that is
> enormous.
>
> If you are drafting the routing and account info is your customers not
> yours.
>
> I had someone fraudulently present a check for 92k on my account. Maybe
> that proves your point, but the bank credited my account in a couple of
> weeks and it really wasn't a big deal to get done. Only time it has ever
> happened. So again, the math tells me even if that happened every year one
> time instead of once in twenty years, and I didn't get my money back, I
> would still be better off using ACH.
>
> But, to each his own. I know a lot of people don't like the 2 day
> settlement period for ACH. in truth, CC is longer. You have what... 60 days
> for someone to contest a charge. While they do it the bank takes the money
> back. Not that that is a big risk. Probably about the same as someone's ACH
> not clearing.
>
> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 9:39 PM Matt Hoppes <
> mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
>
>> ACH is slow (2 days to clear)
>> ACH is insecure (bank account numbers can be gotten off checks, etc)
>> ACH can wipe you out (if someone gets those account numbers)
>> ACH does not provide real-time-feedback (may not know things didn’t work
>> until it bounces two days later)
>>
>> Why anyone still uses ACH or checks or beyond me.
>>
>> A credit card is:
>> Instant (funds transfer immediately, you instantly know if the funds are
>> coming or not)
>>
>> Secure (there is a CVV code required - just having the number gets you
>> nowhere)
>>
>> Safe (if someone does steal your card they won’t wipe out your account
>> and you can quickly get the funds/transactions reversed)
>>
>> Easy to dispute
>>
>>
>> I have one vendor I pay via check every month because they won’t take
>> cards. Otherwise everything I pay personally and business is on CC.
>>
>>
>> On Jun 28, 2018, at 21:59, David Sovereen 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Same here. ACH saves us a bundle, and once customers are used to the
>> recurring payment, there are few bounces. Once a payment does bounce,
>> however, we only take cash or card... guaranteed funds.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> *David Sovereen*
>>
>> Mercury Network Corporation
>> 2719 Ashman 

Re: [AFMUG] How ACH works

[Matt Hoppes]

It’s just the cost of doing business.

And yes they do have 60 days to contest it but most people don’t.

We have a small handful of ACH and the number of bounced transactions that 
occurred there is much much much higher than anyone contesting a credit card 
transactions.

> On Jun 29, 2018, at 08:21, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
> 
> If you can't figure it out maybe math is the issue. 25 cents for ACH. CC is 
> 2.75% and up. If you are doing 400k a month in CC that adds up to about 10k 
> more in fees. In all the time we did ACH we probably lost an additional 3k 
> that we would not have lost with CC. So 3k in 10 years is less than 10k 
> in one month. 
> 
> So why do people still do it...they can do simple arithmetic? 
> 
> You do raise some valid points. If you have to have the money and can't wait 
> two days and so want to pay an effective annual interest rate that is 
> enormous. 
> 
> If you are drafting the routing and account info is your customers not yours. 
> 
> I had someone fraudulently present a check for 92k on my account. Maybe that 
> proves your point, but the bank credited my account in a couple of weeks and 
> it really wasn't a big deal to get done. Only time it has ever happened. So 
> again, the math tells me even if that happened every year one time instead of 
> once in twenty years, and I didn't get my money back, I would still be better 
> off using ACH. 
> 
> But, to each his own. I know a lot of people don't like the 2 day settlement 
> period for ACH. in truth, CC is longer. You have what... 60 days for someone 
> to contest a charge. While they do it the bank takes the money back. Not that 
> that is a big risk. Probably about the same as someone's ACH not clearing. 
> 
>> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 9:39 PM Matt Hoppes 
>>  wrote:
>> ACH is slow (2 days to clear)
>> ACH is insecure (bank account numbers can be gotten off checks, etc)
>> ACH can wipe you out (if someone gets those account numbers)
>> ACH does not provide real-time-feedback (may not know things didn’t work 
>> until it bounces two days later)
>> 
>> Why anyone still uses ACH or checks or beyond me. 
>> 
>> A credit card is:
>> Instant (funds transfer immediately, you instantly know if the funds are 
>> coming or not)
>> 
>> Secure (there is a CVV code required - just having the number gets you 
>> nowhere)
>> 
>> Safe (if someone does steal your card they won’t wipe out your account and 
>> you can quickly get the funds/transactions reversed)
>> 
>> Easy to dispute
>> 
>> 
>> I have one vendor I pay via check every month because they won’t take cards. 
>> Otherwise everything I pay personally and business is on CC. 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 28, 2018, at 21:59, David Sovereen  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Same here. ACH saves us a bundle, and once customers are used to the 
>>> recurring payment, there are few bounces. Once a payment does bounce, 
>>> however, we only take cash or card... guaranteed funds.
>>> 
>>> Dave
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> David Sovereen
>>>  
>>> Mercury Network Corporation
>>> 2719 Ashman Street, Midland, MI 48640
>>> 989.837.3790 x151 office | 888.866.4638 toll free |  989.837.3780 fax
>>>  
>>> Telephone  |  Internet  |  Security Alarm Monitoring
>>> 
>>> david.sover...@mercury.net
>>> www.mercury.net
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Jun 28, 2018, at 6:51 PM, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
 
 That's true but if you assess a hefty enough penalty then they pay you for 
 it anyway. I used to make several thousand a month just off of late fees 
 and disconnect fees. We assessed a 25 dollar fee for any NSF. 
 
> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:49 PM Matt Hoppes 
>  wrote:
> Sure but it takes two days for the failure to come back, so the customer 
> can use that to game the system if they feel so inclined. With a credit 
> card the acceptance or rejection is instant.
> 
>> On Jun 28, 2018, at 17:30, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
>> 
>> I guess it depends on your billing system, how it cuts off people, etc. 
>> Mine would accept payment, then reverse it and cut people off 
>> automatically. One of the few things it did well. I was mostly ACH and 
>> it saved me a couple of grand a month if I remember correctly.
>> 
>>> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 4:25 PM Matt Hoppes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> Hey CH is a pain in my neck. Yes I don’t have to pay fees with the fees 
>>> are very small, but I am not guaranteed my money, and then I have to 
>>> chase balances and add fees and remove payments.
>>> 
 On Jun 28, 2018, at 17:20, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
 
 https://engineering.gusto.com/how-ach-works-a-developer-perspective-part-1/
 
 Might be of interest for those of you whose billing systems are set up 
 for ACH direct debits via checking account numbers.
 -- 
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> -- 
>>> AF mailing 

Re: [AFMUG] How ACH works

[Jason McKemie]

I was just going to say money, but your answer is more precise :)

On Friday, June 29, 2018, Lewis Bergman  wrote:

> If you can't figure it out maybe math is the issue. 25 cents for ACH. CC
> is 2.75% and up. If you are doing 400k a month in CC that adds up to about
> 10k more in fees. In all the time we did ACH we probably lost an additional
> 3k that we would not have lost with CC. So 3k in 10 years is less than
> 10k in one month.
>
> So why do people still do it...they can do simple arithmetic?
>
> You do raise some valid points. If you have to have the money and can't
> wait two days and so want to pay an effective annual interest rate that is
> enormous.
>
> If you are drafting the routing and account info is your customers not
> yours.
>
> I had someone fraudulently present a check for 92k on my account. Maybe
> that proves your point, but the bank credited my account in a couple of
> weeks and it really wasn't a big deal to get done. Only time it has ever
> happened. So again, the math tells me even if that happened every year one
> time instead of once in twenty years, and I didn't get my money back, I
> would still be better off using ACH.
>
> But, to each his own. I know a lot of people don't like the 2 day
> settlement period for ACH. in truth, CC is longer. You have what... 60 days
> for someone to contest a charge. While they do it the bank takes the money
> back. Not that that is a big risk. Probably about the same as someone's ACH
> not clearing.
>
> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 9:39 PM Matt Hoppes  rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
>
>> ACH is slow (2 days to clear)
>> ACH is insecure (bank account numbers can be gotten off checks, etc)
>> ACH can wipe you out (if someone gets those account numbers)
>> ACH does not provide real-time-feedback (may not know things didn’t work
>> until it bounces two days later)
>>
>> Why anyone still uses ACH or checks or beyond me.
>>
>> A credit card is:
>> Instant (funds transfer immediately, you instantly know if the funds are
>> coming or not)
>>
>> Secure (there is a CVV code required - just having the number gets you
>> nowhere)
>>
>> Safe (if someone does steal your card they won’t wipe out your account
>> and you can quickly get the funds/transactions reversed)
>>
>> Easy to dispute
>>
>>
>> I have one vendor I pay via check every month because they won’t take
>> cards. Otherwise everything I pay personally and business is on CC.
>>
>>
>> On Jun 28, 2018, at 21:59, David Sovereen 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Same here. ACH saves us a bundle, and once customers are used to the
>> recurring payment, there are few bounces. Once a payment does bounce,
>> however, we only take cash or card... guaranteed funds.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> *David Sovereen*
>>
>> Mercury Network Corporation
>> 2719 Ashman Street, Midland, MI 48640
>> 989.837.3790 x151 office | 888.866.4638 toll free |  989.837.3780 fax
>>
>> Telephone * |  *Internet*  |  *Security Alarm Monitoring
>>
>> david.sover...@mercury.net
>> www.mercury.net
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 28, 2018, at 6:51 PM, Lewis Bergman 
>> wrote:
>>
>> That's true but if you assess a hefty enough penalty then they pay you
>> for it anyway. I used to make several thousand a month just off of late
>> fees and disconnect fees. We assessed a 25 dollar fee for any NSF.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:49 PM Matt Hoppes > rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Sure but it takes two days for the failure to come back, so the customer
>>> can use that to game the system if they feel so inclined. With a credit
>>> card the acceptance or rejection is instant.
>>>
>>> On Jun 28, 2018, at 17:30, Lewis Bergman 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I guess it depends on your billing system, how it cuts off people, etc.
>>> Mine would accept payment, then reverse it and cut people off
>>> automatically. One of the few things it did well. I was mostly ACH and it
>>> saved me a couple of grand a month if I remember correctly.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 4:25 PM Matt Hoppes >> rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
>>>
 Hey CH is a pain in my neck. Yes I don’t have to pay fees with the fees
 are very small, but I am not guaranteed my money, and then I have to chase
 balances and add fees and remove payments.

 On Jun 28, 2018, at 17:20, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

 https://engineering.gusto.com/how-ach-works-a-developer-
 perspective-part-1/

 Might be of interest for those of you whose billing systems are set up
 for ACH direct debits via checking account numbers.

 --
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

 --
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> AF mailing 

Re: [AFMUG] How ACH works

[Lewis Bergman]

If you can't figure it out maybe math is the issue. 25 cents for ACH. CC is
2.75% and up. If you are doing 400k a month in CC that adds up to about 10k
more in fees. In all the time we did ACH we probably lost an additional 3k
that we would not have lost with CC. So 3k in 10 years is less than 10k
in one month.

So why do people still do it...they can do simple arithmetic?

You do raise some valid points. If you have to have the money and can't
wait two days and so want to pay an effective annual interest rate that is
enormous.

If you are drafting the routing and account info is your customers not
yours.

I had someone fraudulently present a check for 92k on my account. Maybe
that proves your point, but the bank credited my account in a couple of
weeks and it really wasn't a big deal to get done. Only time it has ever
happened. So again, the math tells me even if that happened every year one
time instead of once in twenty years, and I didn't get my money back, I
would still be better off using ACH.

But, to each his own. I know a lot of people don't like the 2 day
settlement period for ACH. in truth, CC is longer. You have what... 60 days
for someone to contest a charge. While they do it the bank takes the money
back. Not that that is a big risk. Probably about the same as someone's ACH
not clearing.

On Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 9:39 PM Matt Hoppes 
wrote:

> ACH is slow (2 days to clear)
> ACH is insecure (bank account numbers can be gotten off checks, etc)
> ACH can wipe you out (if someone gets those account numbers)
> ACH does not provide real-time-feedback (may not know things didn’t work
> until it bounces two days later)
>
> Why anyone still uses ACH or checks or beyond me.
>
> A credit card is:
> Instant (funds transfer immediately, you instantly know if the funds are
> coming or not)
>
> Secure (there is a CVV code required - just having the number gets you
> nowhere)
>
> Safe (if someone does steal your card they won’t wipe out your account and
> you can quickly get the funds/transactions reversed)
>
> Easy to dispute
>
>
> I have one vendor I pay via check every month because they won’t take
> cards. Otherwise everything I pay personally and business is on CC.
>
>
> On Jun 28, 2018, at 21:59, David Sovereen 
> wrote:
>
> Same here. ACH saves us a bundle, and once customers are used to the
> recurring payment, there are few bounces. Once a payment does bounce,
> however, we only take cash or card... guaranteed funds.
>
> Dave
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> *David Sovereen*
>
> Mercury Network Corporation
> 2719 Ashman Street, Midland, MI 48640
> 989.837.3790 x151 office | 888.866.4638 toll free |  989.837.3780 fax
>
> Telephone * |  *Internet*  |  *Security Alarm Monitoring
>
> david.sover...@mercury.net
> www.mercury.net
>
> 
>
>
>
> On Jun 28, 2018, at 6:51 PM, Lewis Bergman 
> wrote:
>
> That's true but if you assess a hefty enough penalty then they pay you for
> it anyway. I used to make several thousand a month just off of late fees
> and disconnect fees. We assessed a 25 dollar fee for any NSF.
>
> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:49 PM Matt Hoppes <
> mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
>
>> Sure but it takes two days for the failure to come back, so the customer
>> can use that to game the system if they feel so inclined. With a credit
>> card the acceptance or rejection is instant.
>>
>> On Jun 28, 2018, at 17:30, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
>>
>> I guess it depends on your billing system, how it cuts off people, etc.
>> Mine would accept payment, then reverse it and cut people off
>> automatically. One of the few things it did well. I was mostly ACH and it
>> saved me a couple of grand a month if I remember correctly.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 4:25 PM Matt Hoppes <
>> mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey CH is a pain in my neck. Yes I don’t have to pay fees with the fees
>>> are very small, but I am not guaranteed my money, and then I have to chase
>>> balances and add fees and remove payments.
>>>
>>> On Jun 28, 2018, at 17:20, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://engineering.gusto.com/how-ach-works-a-developer-perspective-part-1/
>>>
>>> Might be of interest for those of you whose billing systems are set up
>>> for ACH direct debits via checking account numbers.
>>>
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Re: [AFMUG] How To Test Port For Magnetics?

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

Ok, that's a better explanation.

Generally, the thing that fries when you plug PoE into a non-PoE device is
the termination resistors.   Whether they fry or not really depends on how
they're wired

Traditionally ethernet is terminated through a 75-ohm resistor from the
center tap of each pair to a common point.  This common point is then tied
to ground through a capacitor. These are usually at best 1/4W resistors.

When you plug PoE into a device, what happens is that you now have power in
through one pair, across one of the 75-ohm resistors to the common point
and then through a second 75-ohm resistor back to the return power wire.
 This gives you ~150 ohms across your PoE power source.

Assuming a best case scenario where you only have a 24V power source, this
150 ohms results in only 0.16A of current, but 3.84W.  Or 1.92W per
resistor.   This will cause those 1/4W resistors to get very hot, and one
way or another will fairly quickly no longer pass any current at all.
 Assuming that nothing (other than the resistor) gets permanently damaged,
often this even will just result in the resistor no longer being in the
circuit - and the device will magically become PoE compatible.   Note I'm
NOT recommending this, just stating my experience.

If you want to find this termination before melting/burning up a device,
simply measure between all combinations of pairs with a DMM set to ohms
(I'd probably twist the two wires in a pair together for this test).   If
you find a reading of <100K or so, and definitely if you find a reading of
under 1000 ohms, then you have a non-compatible termination.   I.E. measure
from the blue pair to all other pairs (one at a time).   Then from the
green pair to all other pairs.  And so on.

Newer devices which are designed by people who understand PoE either don't
have any termination resistors or they've added a capacitor to each
resistor individually to block dc from flowing between the pairs.

One other caveat is that I've seen designers just ground unused pairs or
center taps, so it might make sense to also check connectivity to any
connector shields or chassis grounds.



On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 11:18 AM, Christopher Gray <
cg...@graytechsoftware.com> wrote:

> In this case, I'm actually checking to see what ports (that are not used
> for PoE) can receive PoE voltages without being fried.
>
> It seems if there is a set of magnetics installed without connected center
> taps (I think this is the isolation configuration), then you can run
> standard PoE voltages into a port without damaging it.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 1:02 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>
>> If that's the case, I totally agree with you...
>>
>> Electrically test each individual wire to the chassis/shield/ground
>> lug/coax connector outsides, making sure there's no conductivity (with the
>> caveat that there may be capacitors to ground which will show brief moments
>> of connectivity as you initially hook it up).
>>
>> Then, power on the radio, using an isolated power supply.  Repeat the
>> above tests using a voltmeter instead - you shouldn't see any meaningful
>> voltages.
>>
>> I'm in the process of trying to gather this type of information for each
>> common radio/poe device.  It's slow going and there are of course other
>> things which always seem to be higher priority.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 10:56 AM,  wrote:
>>
>>> The conversation originally started with –48 power sources and was it
>>> safe to power an ethernet device off of such a supply.
>>> Is the power galvanically isolated from any ground/shield type of
>>> connections on the device.
>>>
>>> *From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 28, 2018 10:36 AM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] How To Test Port For Magnetics?
>>>
>>> Could you clarify a bit what you mean by isolate?
>>>
>>> This could mean:
>>>
>>> The PoE and the lan sides are electrically separate (i.e. there's a set
>>> of ethernet magnetics in it).
>>> or
>>> The power supply is electrically isolated on each port
>>> or
>>> There is no ground connection
>>> or
>>> .
>>>
>>> When you start talking PoE there are lots of ways to arrange the power
>>> injection.  For instance, on all gigabit power injectors that packetflux
>>> currently makes, the LAN side of the injector is totally electrically
>>> isolated from everything else.   The PoE side has pins tied to either power
>>> or return/neutral depending on how jumpers get set, with the note that by
>>> 'tied' means that we're connecting the center tap on the magnetics to those
>>> pins.
>>>
>>> Other injectors (and perhaps upcoming ones from packetflux) have fully
>>> isolated DC power on the PoE, so there isn't any direct connection from the
>>> PoE port to the source power supply.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 10:00 AM, Christopher Gray <
>>> cg...@graytechsoftware.com> wrote:
>>>
 Chuck (Well, 

Re: [AFMUG] Cellular modems for Mikrotik

[Peter Kranz]

Jaime, on those ebay cradlepoint’s, can they be configured, etc.. without a 
subscription to their cloud services?

 

Peter Kranz
  www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
  pkr...@unwiredltd.com

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jaime Solorza
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 3:29 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cellular modems for Mikrotik

 

We have been happy with Cradlepointyou can get some good deals on 
eBay.microhard makes some ruggedized ones as well.

Jaime Solorza

 

On Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 1:23 PM John Babineaux mailto:john.babine...@reach4com.com> > wrote:


Looking for a Cellular modems  For couple MikroTik in the field for monitoring 
with low data.  Does anyone do it and have any advice?


 


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