Re: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 0.02...

[TJ Trout]

Why not test for 2.5, 5 and 10g ethernet? Good marketing material if they
work?

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 8:20 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> I have not.  It is nearly impossible for a surge suppressor to pass full
> CAT6 standards.  The jacks are not even able to pass with no components.
>
> *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 8:27 PM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> *Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
> *Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to
> add their 0.02...
>
>
> Have you played with multi-gig ethernet?
>
> A certain “brand T” has a model of 10gig surge suppressor and it has very
> few components compared to their prior models.  I was wondering if 10G is
> too sensitive to put more components in the line.
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 9:21 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to
> add their 0.02...
>
>
>
> All CAT6 in our product line are 100% GDT.  Anything that says GIGE has
> solid state and GDT.  I would recommend CAT6 for everything.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 6:22 PM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add
> their 0.02...
>
>
>
> Which of the MTC CAT6 surge suppressors that fit in the APC racks are
> recommended for general use?
>
>
>
> I see a Gas discharge and semiconductor diode version on the website.
> Guessing the GDT version is more robust and less likely to cause errors at
> the expense of reaction time.
> --
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 
Thank you,

TJ Trout
Volt Broadband
209.480.3122 Cell
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Re: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 0.02...

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I have not.  It is nearly impossible for a surge suppressor to pass full CAT6 
standards.  The jacks are not even able to pass with no components.  

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 8:27 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 
0.02...

Have you played with multi-gig ethernet?

A certain “brand T” has a model of 10gig surge suppressor and it has very few 
components compared to their prior models.  I was wondering if 10G is too 
sensitive to put more components in the line.

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 9:21 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 
0.02...

 

All CAT6 in our product line are 100% GDT.  Anything that says GIGE has solid 
state and GDT.  I would recommend CAT6 for everything.  

 

 

 

From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 

Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 6:22 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 
0.02...

 

Which of the MTC CAT6 surge suppressors that fit in the APC racks are 
recommended for general use?  

 

I see a Gas discharge and semiconductor diode version on the website.  Guessing 
the GDT version is more robust and less likely to cause errors at the expense 
of reaction time. 




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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 0.02...

[dmmoffett]

Have you played with multi-gig ethernet?

A certain “brand T” has a model of 10gig surge suppressor and it has very few 
components compared to their prior models.  I was wondering if 10G is too 
sensitive to put more components in the line.

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 9:21 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 
0.02...

 

All CAT6 in our product line are 100% GDT.  Anything that says GIGE has solid 
state and GDT.  I would recommend CAT6 for everything.  

 

 

 

From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 

Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 6:22 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 
0.02...

 

Which of the MTC CAT6 surge suppressors that fit in the APC racks are 
recommended for general use?  

 

I see a Gas discharge and semiconductor diode version on the website.  Guessing 
the GDT version is more robust and less likely to cause errors at the expense 
of reaction time. 

  _  

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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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Re: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 0.02...

[Chuck McCown via AF]

All CAT6 in our product line are 100% GDT.  Anything that says GIGE has solid 
state and GDT.  I would recommend CAT6 for everything.  



From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 6:22 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 
0.02...

Which of the MTC CAT6 surge suppressors that fit in the APC racks are 
recommended for general use?  

I see a Gas discharge and semiconductor diode version on the website.  Guessing 
the GDT version is more robust and less likely to cause errors at the expense 
of reaction time. 



-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

If the batteries were in a tight, very well insulated container, keeping them 
warm will take very little energy.  Think of a giant dewar box.  Once they are 
at temp they should hold it.  And discharge as well as charge will cause them 
to heat.  



From: Mathew Howard 
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 5:25 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah... for on-grid backup power, running heaters shouldn't be a big problem, 
but off-grid is a different animal. Warming the batteries up enough to charge 
could take a lot of power. 

All the lifepo4 batteries I've looked at list the minimum discharge temperature 
at -20C, which isn't terrible, but they need to be at least 0C to charge. The 
discharge temperature isn't hard cut-off where it won't work or will wreck the 
batteries sort of thing, as far as I can tell, but the charging temperature is.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 6:02 PM Robert Andrews  wrote:

  For off grid, it also has to have heaters.  Not being able to charge is 
  just as crippling if your site never gets above freezing long enough to 
  charge the batteries in the winter.   Getting the batteries heated JUST 
  off the solar output ( not off of grid power ) is tricky and I am not 
  convinced that anything less than an 8K solar array is going to keep a 
  LFP site with any real draw happy over a winter.   That's a killer...

  On 8/17/23 13:58, Brian Webster wrote:
  > The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when charge 
  > so as not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The LiTime 
  > batteries now have low temp disconnect in their internal battery BMS. 
  > Their prices are very good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries more than 
  > justifies the slightly added cost for the battery. If the temperature 
  > does not stay below the disconnect temp for longer than you have run 
  > time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo batteries give you full 
  > capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. They are a lot 
  > lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery count (and 
  > overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the 
  > charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries 
  > that the panels produce. This should get the battery up to or closer to 
  > the full voltage sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off the power 
  > from the panels for a longer period of time as well. This of course 
  > stretches your battery capacity too. When you can push full current 
  > through the charger to the batteries, even short periods of sun can get 
  > your battery charged or partially charged faster than the charging 
  > profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.
  > 
  > Thank you,
  > 
  > Brian Webster
  > 
  > *From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
  > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
  > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
  > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
  > 
  > Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. 
  > I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's 
  > going to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum 
  > charging temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be 
  > below for a good part of the year.
  > 
  > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  > wrote:
  > 
  > Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
  > price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half
  > the space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There
  > is the issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for
  > extremely cold environments.
  > 
  > bp
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com
  >  wrote:
  > 
  > Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
  > 
  > Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
  > the $/Wh to buy Lithium.
  > 
  > *From:* AF 
  >  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
  > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
  > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  > 
  > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
  > 
  > Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and
  > space requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries
  > don't last forever, so you have to factor in replacement costs
  > too, which will be a significant ongoing cost for a larger
  > system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would be cheaper
  > long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and
  > the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is
  > required, which means you 

[AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 0.02...

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

Which of the MTC CAT6 surge suppressors that fit in the APC racks are
recommended for general use?

I see a Gas discharge and semiconductor diode version on the website.
Guessing the GDT version is more robust and less likely to cause errors at
the expense of reaction time.
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah... for on-grid backup power, running heaters shouldn't be a big
problem, but off-grid is a different animal. Warming the batteries up
enough to charge could take a lot of power.

All the lifepo4 batteries I've looked at list the minimum discharge
temperature at -20C, which isn't terrible, but they need to be at least 0C
to charge. The discharge temperature isn't hard cut-off where it won't work
or will wreck the batteries sort of thing, as far as I can tell, but the
charging temperature is.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 6:02 PM Robert Andrews 
wrote:

> For off grid, it also has to have heaters.  Not being able to charge is
> just as crippling if your site never gets above freezing long enough to
> charge the batteries in the winter.   Getting the batteries heated JUST
> off the solar output ( not off of grid power ) is tricky and I am not
> convinced that anything less than an 8K solar array is going to keep a
> LFP site with any real draw happy over a winter.   That's a killer...
>
> On 8/17/23 13:58, Brian Webster wrote:
> > The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when charge
> > so as not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The LiTime
> > batteries now have low temp disconnect in their internal battery BMS.
> > Their prices are very good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries more than
> > justifies the slightly added cost for the battery. If the temperature
> > does not stay below the disconnect temp for longer than you have run
> > time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo batteries give you full
> > capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. They are a lot
> > lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery count (and
> > overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the
> > charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries
> > that the panels produce. This should get the battery up to or closer to
> > the full voltage sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off the power
> > from the panels for a longer period of time as well. This of course
> > stretches your battery capacity too. When you can push full current
> > through the charger to the batteries, even short periods of sun can get
> > your battery charged or partially charged faster than the charging
> > profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Brian Webster
> >
> > *From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
> > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
> >
> > Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums.
> > I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's
> > going to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum
> > charging temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be
> > below for a good part of the year.
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  > > wrote:
> >
> > Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
> > price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half
> > the space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There
> > is the issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for
> > extremely cold environments.
> >
> > bp
> >
> > 
> >
> > On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com
> >  wrote:
> >
> > Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
> >
> > Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
> > the $/Wh to buy Lithium.
> >
> > *From:* AF 
> >  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
> > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> > 
> > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
> >
> > Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and
> > space requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries
> > don't last forever, so you have to factor in replacement costs
> > too, which will be a significant ongoing cost for a larger
> > system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would be cheaper
> > long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and
> > the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is
> > required, which means you need more power.
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  > > wrote:
> >
> > That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building
> > for a tiny load does make the costs easier.  But if you
> > wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or anything else you
> > can’t do it without growing the whole power system
> > proportionally.
> 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

Most of them that I've looked at say they support up to 4 in series,
whether they work well or not, I don't know. I imagine they could end up
with balance issues over time, but other than that, I don't know what
problems there would be.

I said 125 because the nominal voltage for lifepo4 cells is 3.2v. Full
charge is 3.65v, but if I remember correctly, they'll drop down to around
3.4v pretty quickly and then level off. If you need to keep above 400v,
you'd want 125.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 5:09 PM TJ Trout  wrote:

> Which did you see that supports beyond 4 in series? I would be interested
> to check those out.
>
> 125*3.65vpc= 456v
>
> I guess you need 125 if your running at nominal voltage (partial state of
> charge)
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 2:35 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:
>
>> I put four of the sealed 12v lifepo4 batteries in an electric lawn mower
>> (it originally had lead acid), and it works well enough, but yeah, a single
>> BMS is preferable, and I haven't seen any that say they can do more than 4
>> in series anyway.
>>
>> With lifepo4 you'll need 125 cells to get 400v... I'm not sure where
>> you'd find a BMS that will handle that though. I assume there must be
>> something out there.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 4:06 PM TJ Trout  wrote:
>>
>>> Many of them have integrated heaters.
>>>
>>> Sealed lifepo4 batteries should only be used at the nameplate voltage
>>> 12v for example, some will support up to four in series for a 48 volt
>>> configuration but it's a hack job to do it that way.
>>>
>>> If you need 400v at 100ah you will need 110 qty of 100ah cells and a
>>> compatible BMS.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 My electric car loses significant range at temps below 35F and as a
 double whammy, will not accept a full charge at low temps either.

 Lead acid work at low temps but if they get too far discharged they
 will freeze.  Gates Cyclons were advertised to be able to be fully charged
 and discharged when frozen.

 *From:* Mathew Howard
 *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:13 PM
 *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to
 lithiums. I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and
 it's going to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the
 minimum charging temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to
 be below for a good part of the year.

 On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince 
 wrote:

> Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
> price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the
> space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the
> issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for extremely 
> cold
> environments.
>
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>
> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh
> to buy Lithium.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a 
> significant
> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is 
> required,
> which means you need more power.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>
> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny
> load does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
> system proportionally.
>
>
>
> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>
>
>
> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even
> 2400W would power almost any WISP deployment.  

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert Andrews]

For off grid, it also has to have heaters.  Not being able to charge is 
just as crippling if your site never gets above freezing long enough to 
charge the batteries in the winter.   Getting the batteries heated JUST 
off the solar output ( not off of grid power ) is tricky and I am not 
convinced that anything less than an 8K solar array is going to keep a 
LFP site with any real draw happy over a winter.   That's a killer...


On 8/17/23 13:58, Brian Webster wrote:
The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when charge 
so as not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The LiTime 
batteries now have low temp disconnect in their internal battery BMS. 
Their prices are very good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries more than 
justifies the slightly added cost for the battery. If the temperature 
does not stay below the disconnect temp for longer than you have run 
time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo batteries give you full 
capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. They are a lot 
lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery count (and 
overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the 
charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries 
that the panels produce. This should get the battery up to or closer to 
the full voltage sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off the power 
from the panels for a longer period of time as well. This of course 
stretches your battery capacity too. When you can push full current 
through the charger to the batteries, even short periods of sun can get 
your battery charged or partially charged faster than the charging 
profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.


Thank you,

Brian Webster

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. 
I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's 
going to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum 
charging temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be 
below for a good part of the year.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince > wrote:


Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half
the space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There
is the issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for
extremely cold environments.

bp



On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com
 wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
the $/Wh to buy Lithium.

*From:* AF 
 *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and
space requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries
don't last forever, so you have to factor in replacement costs
too, which will be a significant ongoing cost for a larger
system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would be cheaper
long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and
the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is
required, which means you need more power.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building
for a tiny load does make the costs easier.  But if you
wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or anything else you
can’t do it without growing the whole power system
proportionally.

Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end
hardware now is using a lot of signal processing either to
reassemble useful data out of garbage or for beam steering,
or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d
be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that
equipment….but building for a 20W load takes the choice away.

A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is
2400W.  Even 2400W would power almost any WISP deployment. 
Building solar to handle any load you might have is

expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working
  

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert Andrews]

I just wish Will Prowse would start doing heater reviews on LFP 
batteries, but he's in Vegas and that's the last thing on his mind.  But 
it's critical for everyone north of Lat 36


On 8/17/23 13:07, TJ Trout wrote:
Don't buy 12v lifepo4 batteries for series use, it's much better to buy 
a 24v or 48v battery as it will have one BMS and keep balanced.


https://signaturesolar.com/shop-all/batteries/ 



Some of the main players are signature solar, trophy battery, and a 
bunch of others look at Will prowse solar on YouTube and you can see 
reviews of all of the different 48 volt batteries.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:03 PM Mathew Howard > wrote:


LiFePO4. There are a few different ways you can go with that though.
You can get something like these:
https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/eve-lf280k
 which I
think actually comes out slightly cheaper than SLA/AGM, but then you
need a separate BMS, or you can get something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166234057827
 which is made to be a drop
in replacement for lead acids, and has a built in BMS.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:37 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about? 

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
the $/Wh to buy Lithium. 

__ __

__ __

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

__ __

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and
space requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries
don't last forever, so you have to factor in replacement costs
too, which will be a significant ongoing cost for a larger
system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would be cheaper
long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and
the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is
required, which means you need more power.

__ __

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building
for a tiny load does make the costs easier.  But if you
wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or anything else you
can’t do it without growing the whole power system
proportionally.



Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end
hardware now is using a lot of signal processing either to
reassemble useful data out of garbage or for beam steering,
or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d
be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that
equipment….but building for a 20W load takes the choice
away. 



A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is
2400W.  Even 2400W would power almost any WISP deployment. 
Building solar to handle any load you might have is

expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you. 

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working
for you then it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that
direction.



-Adam







*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that
having extra battery capacity is more helpful than
oversizing the solar panels, so I'd probably go with Chuck's
numbers for batteries if I was putting something together
now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400
watts (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an
issue if we're trying to fit it on a pole). 



A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160,
so 6 of those would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under
$1k. At $1500 (which is mostly just adjusting battery and
panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right in line
with Chuck's estimate, aside from 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[TJ Trout]

Which did you see that supports beyond 4 in series? I would be interested
to check those out.

125*3.65vpc= 456v

I guess you need 125 if your running at nominal voltage (partial state of
charge)

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 2:35 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:

> I put four of the sealed 12v lifepo4 batteries in an electric lawn mower
> (it originally had lead acid), and it works well enough, but yeah, a single
> BMS is preferable, and I haven't seen any that say they can do more than 4
> in series anyway.
>
> With lifepo4 you'll need 125 cells to get 400v... I'm not sure where you'd
> find a BMS that will handle that though. I assume there must be something
> out there.
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 4:06 PM TJ Trout  wrote:
>
>> Many of them have integrated heaters.
>>
>> Sealed lifepo4 batteries should only be used at the nameplate voltage 12v
>> for example, some will support up to four in series for a 48 volt
>> configuration but it's a hack job to do it that way.
>>
>> If you need 400v at 100ah you will need 110 qty of 100ah cells and a
>> compatible BMS.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> My electric car loses significant range at temps below 35F and as a
>>> double whammy, will not accept a full charge at low temps either.
>>>
>>> Lead acid work at low temps but if they get too far discharged they will
>>> freeze.  Gates Cyclons were advertised to be able to be fully charged and
>>> discharged when frozen.
>>>
>>> *From:* Mathew Howard
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:13 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>>
>>> Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums.
>>> I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going
>>> to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging
>>> temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a
>>> good part of the year.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>>>
 Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
 price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the
 space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the
 issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold
 environments.



 bp
 

 On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

 Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?

 Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh
 to buy Lithium.





 *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
 *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
 *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



 Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
 requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
 so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
 ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
 would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
 span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
 which means you need more power.



 On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:

 That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny
 load does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
 backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
 system proportionally.



 Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
 using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
 garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
 an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
 most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
 building for a 20W load takes the choice away.



 A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even
 2400W would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any
 load you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
 you.

 You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
 it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.



 -Adam







 *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
 *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
 *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



 I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having
 extra battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Well... battery manufacturers (lead acid stationary) have used their Ah rating 
at 1.85 VPC (or some down as low as 1.65 VPC).  

Certainly 1.65 vpc is a totally run down battery.
2 volts is frequently listed as 50% DOD.  

If GNB says you have 200Ah (1.85 VPC) at a certain discharge rate, they 
actually will deliver the full 200 Ah and it appears many would think 1.85 VPC 
is 100 useful DOD.  1.85 x 24 =44.4 and most gear will work down to that, but 
at some point North of 40 volts it usually quits.  

They also state that at 100% DOD you can get 250 cycles.  With 10% DOD you can 
get 1500 cycles.  In all my years working in telco central offices, I have 
never had one run batts so low that it went off line.  You always got a 
generator going if was going to be an extended outage.  We had to put in a 
minimum of 8 hours run time for RUS funded C.O.s So most telco batts probably 
get retired with maybe 10 significant discharge events on them in a 10-20 year 
period.  

So, in this sense, they are not being misleading stating capacity, but that is 
for a telco application.

Solar powered applications, not so simple.  You really gotta decide right from 
the git-go how many cycles you want your batts to last.  From that determine 
what DOD will get you there, from that you have to figure out the capacity 
derating factor.  

Much easier doing this calculation for telco.  



From: Brian Webster 
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:58 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when charge so as 
not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The LiTime batteries now 
have low temp disconnect in their internal battery BMS. Their prices are very 
good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries more than justifies the slightly added 
cost for the battery. If the temperature does not stay below the disconnect 
temp for longer than you have run time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo 
batteries give you full capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. 
They are a lot lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery 
count (and overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the 
charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries that the 
panels produce. This should get the battery up to or closer to the full voltage 
sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off the power from the panels for a 
longer period of time as well. This of course stretches your battery capacity 
too. When you can push full current through the charger to the batteries, even 
short periods of sun can get your battery charged or partially charged faster 
than the charging profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. I can 
throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going to work 
good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging temperature 
for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a good part of the 
year.

 

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

  Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same price as 
lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the space as lead 
acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the issue of temperature 
sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold environments.

   

bpOn 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?  

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to 
buy Lithium.  

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space 
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever, so 
you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant 
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would 
be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and the 
initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required, which means you 
need more power.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:

  That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load 
does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or 
anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power system 
proportionally.

   

  Steve was talking a 50W load 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

I put four of the sealed 12v lifepo4 batteries in an electric lawn mower
(it originally had lead acid), and it works well enough, but yeah, a single
BMS is preferable, and I haven't seen any that say they can do more than 4
in series anyway.

With lifepo4 you'll need 125 cells to get 400v... I'm not sure where you'd
find a BMS that will handle that though. I assume there must be something
out there.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 4:06 PM TJ Trout  wrote:

> Many of them have integrated heaters.
>
> Sealed lifepo4 batteries should only be used at the nameplate voltage 12v
> for example, some will support up to four in series for a 48 volt
> configuration but it's a hack job to do it that way.
>
> If you need 400v at 100ah you will need 110 qty of 100ah cells and a
> compatible BMS.
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
>
>> My electric car loses significant range at temps below 35F and as a
>> double whammy, will not accept a full charge at low temps either.
>>
>> Lead acid work at low temps but if they get too far discharged they will
>> freeze.  Gates Cyclons were advertised to be able to be fully charged and
>> discharged when frozen.
>>
>> *From:* Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:13 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>> Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums.
>> I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going
>> to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging
>> temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a
>> good part of the year.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>>
>>> Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
>>> price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the
>>> space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the
>>> issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold
>>> environments.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> bp
>>> 
>>>
>>> On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>>>
>>> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh
>>> to buy Lithium.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
>>> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
>>> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
>>> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
>>> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
>>> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
>>> which means you need more power.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>>>
>>> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny
>>> load does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
>>> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
>>> system proportionally.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
>>> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
>>> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
>>> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
>>> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
>>> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even
>>> 2400W would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any
>>> load you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
>>> you.
>>>
>>> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
>>> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having
>>> extra battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so
>>> I'd probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting
>>> something together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure
>>> 400 watts (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if
>>> we're trying to fit it on a pole).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of
>>> those would give me 7200 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Brian Webster]

The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when charge so as 
not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The LiTime batteries now 
have low temp disconnect in their internal battery BMS. Their prices are very 
good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries more than justifies the slightly added 
cost for the battery. If the temperature does not stay below the disconnect 
temp for longer than you have run time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo 
batteries give you full capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. 
They are a lot lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery 
count (and overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the 
charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries that the 
panels produce. This should get the battery up to or closer to the full voltage 
sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off the power from the panels for a 
longer period of time as well. This of course stretches your battery capacity 
too. When you can push full current through the charger to the batteries, even 
short periods of sun can get your battery charged or partially charged faster 
than the charging profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. I can 
throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going to work 
good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging temperature 
for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a good part of the 
year.

 

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same price as 
lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the space as lead 
acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the issue of temperature 
sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold environments.

 

bp


On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?  

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to buy 
Lithium.  

 

 

From: AF    On Behalf 
Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group   
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space 
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever, so 
you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant 
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would 
be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and the 
initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required, which means you 
need more power.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load does 
make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or 
anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power system 
proportionally.

 

Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is using a 
lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of garbage or for 
beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d be 
hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and most of them are 50W+.  
We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but building for a 20W load takes 
the choice away.  

 

A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W would 
power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load you might 
have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then it’s 
good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra 
battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd 
probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something 
together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts (if 
mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying to fit it 
on a pole). 

 

A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those would 
give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is mostly just 
adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right in 
line with Chuck's 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[TJ Trout]

Many of them have integrated heaters.

Sealed lifepo4 batteries should only be used at the nameplate voltage 12v
for example, some will support up to four in series for a 48 volt
configuration but it's a hack job to do it that way.

If you need 400v at 100ah you will need 110 qty of 100ah cells and a
compatible BMS.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> My electric car loses significant range at temps below 35F and as a double
> whammy, will not accept a full charge at low temps either.
>
> Lead acid work at low temps but if they get too far discharged they will
> freeze.  Gates Cyclons were advertised to be able to be fully charged and
> discharged when frozen.
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:13 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
> Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. I
> can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going to
> work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging
> temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a
> good part of the year.
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>
>> Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
>> price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the
>> space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the
>> issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold
>> environments.
>>
>>
>>
>> bp
>> 
>>
>> On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>>
>> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to
>> buy Lithium.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
>> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
>> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
>> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
>> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
>> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
>> which means you need more power.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>>
>> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load
>> does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
>> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
>> system proportionally.
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
>> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
>> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
>> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
>> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
>> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>>
>>
>>
>> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W
>> would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load
>> you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
>> you.
>>
>> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
>> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
>> battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
>> probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
>> together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
>> (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
>> to fit it on a pole).
>>
>>
>>
>> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
>> would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
>> mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
>> I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>>
>> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
>> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>>
>> What’s your latitude?
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

My electric car loses significant range at temps below 35F and as a double 
whammy, will not accept a full charge at low temps either.  

Lead acid work at low temps but if they get too far discharged they will 
freeze.  Gates Cyclons were advertised to be able to be fully charged and 
discharged when frozen.  

From: Mathew Howard 
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:13 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. I can 
throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going to work 
good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging temperature 
for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a good part of the 
year.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

  Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same price as 
lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the space as lead 
acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the issue of temperature 
sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold environments.



bp
On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?  

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to 
buy Lithium.  





From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space 
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever, so 
you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant 
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would 
be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and the 
initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required, which means you 
need more power.



On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:

  That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load 
does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or 
anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power system 
proportionally.



  Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is 
using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of 
garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an 
AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and most of 
them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but building for a 
20W load takes the choice away.  



  A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W 
would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load you 
might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.

  You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then 
it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.



  -Adam







  From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
  Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



  I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra 
battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd 
probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something 
together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts (if 
mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying to fit it 
on a pole). 



  A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those 
would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is mostly 
just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right 
in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.



  On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State 
I’m 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?



From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a 
site like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual 
load is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had 
some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using 
cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's 
gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be 
had for around $800, last I checked. Probably 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

That is 15 cents per watt.  On par with lead acid.  

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

From: TJ Trout 
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Way cheaper to use lifepo4 now than using telecom lead acid if you look at the 
whole picture 

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:03 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:

  LiFePO4. There are a few different ways you can go with that though. You can 
get something like these: https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/eve-lf280k 
which I think actually comes out slightly cheaper than SLA/AGM, but then you 
need a separate BMS, or you can get something like this: 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166234057827 which is made to be a drop in replacement 
for lead acids, and has a built in BMS. 


  On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:37 PM  wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?  

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to 
buy Lithium.  





From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space 
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever, so 
you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant 
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would 
be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and the 
initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required, which means you 
need more power.



On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:

  That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load 
does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or 
anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power system 
proportionally.



  Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is 
using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of 
garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an 
AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and most of 
them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but building for a 
20W load takes the choice away.  



  A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W 
would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load you 
might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.

  You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then 
it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.



  -Adam







  From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
  Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



  I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra 
battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd 
probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something 
together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts (if 
mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying to fit it 
on a pole). 



  A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those 
would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is mostly 
just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right 
in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.



  On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State 
I’m 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?



From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a 
site like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual 
load is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had 
some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using 
cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's 
gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be 
had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500 when 
you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts that are 
needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries, power 
supply), so that offsets it a bit.



On Wed, Aug 16, 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. I
can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going to
work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging
temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a
good part of the year.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

> Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same price
> as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the space as
> lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the issue of
> temperature sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold
> environments.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>
> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to
> buy Lithium.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF   *On Behalf
> Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
> which means you need more power.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>
> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load
> does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
> system proportionally.
>
>
>
> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>
>
>
> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W
> would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load
> you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
> you.
>
> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
> battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
> probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
> together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
> (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
> to fit it on a pole).
>
>
>
> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
> would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
> mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
> I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>
> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>
> What’s your latitude?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
> like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
> is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
> some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
> cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's
> gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can
> be had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500
> when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
> that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries,
> power supply), so that offsets it a bit.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
> Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top
> location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed
> me:
>
>
>
> Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Daniel Pautz via AF]

Those look pretty interesting.   We just dropped 10 grand on new bats for one 
of our 350KW UPS’s which use two strings of 100AH bats,  I was looking around 
but just couldn’t get to the happy spot with going Lithium,   many of them said 
max 3 or 4 in series which kind of kill it as these need 400v+.   Our other 
500KW ups’s use thousands of the cheapy 9AH bats,   takes some of the employees 
weeks to swap those battery packs out,  but nice thing about those is no worry 
of 1 battery from each string being enough to kill the ups,  with dozens of 
strings the probability is very low.

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

LiFePO4. There are a few different ways you can go with that though. You can 
get something like these: https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/eve-lf280k 
which I think actually comes out slightly cheaper than SLA/AGM, but then you 
need a separate BMS, or you can get something like this: 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166234057827 which is made to be a drop in replacement 
for lead acids, and has a built in BMS.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:37 PM 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to buy 
Lithium.


From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space 
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever, so 
you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant 
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would 
be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and the 
initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required, which means you 
need more power.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load does 
make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or 
anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power system 
proportionally.

Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is using a 
lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of garbage or for 
beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d be 
hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and most of them are 50W+.  
We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but building for a 20W load takes 
the choice away.

A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W would 
power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load you might 
have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.
You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then it’s 
good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.

-Adam



From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra 
battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd 
probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something 
together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts (if 
mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying to fit it 
on a pole).

A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those would 
give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is mostly just 
adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right in 
line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m 2 
degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
What’s your latitude?

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site like 
that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load is 
around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had some 
issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using cheap 
flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten 
through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had for 
around $800, last I checked. 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[TJ Trout]

Don't buy 12v lifepo4 batteries for series use, it's much better to buy a
24v or 48v battery as it will have one BMS and keep balanced.

https://signaturesolar.com/shop-all/batteries/

Some of the main players are signature solar, trophy battery, and a bunch
of others look at Will prowse solar on YouTube and you can see reviews of
all of the different 48 volt batteries.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:03 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:

> LiFePO4. There are a few different ways you can go with that though. You
> can get something like these:
> https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/eve-lf280k which I think
> actually comes out slightly cheaper than SLA/AGM, but then you need a
> separate BMS, or you can get something like this:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/166234057827 which is made to be a drop in
> replacement for lead acids, and has a built in BMS.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:37 PM  wrote:
>
>> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>>
>> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to
>> buy Lithium.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
>> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
>> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
>> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
>> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
>> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
>> which means you need more power.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>>
>> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load
>> does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
>> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
>> system proportionally.
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
>> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
>> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
>> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
>> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
>> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>>
>>
>>
>> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W
>> would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load
>> you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
>> you.
>>
>> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
>> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
>> battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
>> probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
>> together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
>> (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
>> to fit it on a pole).
>>
>>
>>
>> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
>> would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
>> mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
>> I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>>
>> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
>> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>>
>> What’s your latitude?
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
>> like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
>> is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
>> some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
>> cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's
>> gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can
>> be had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500
>> when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
>> that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries,
>> power supply), so that offsets it a bit.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Bill Prince]

Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same 
price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the 
space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the 
issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for extremely 
cold environments.



bp


On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:


Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh 
to buy Lithium.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space 
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last 
forever, so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be 
a significant ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that 
lithium batteries would be cheaper long term now, since they should 
have a lot longer life span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, 
but then heating is required, which means you need more power.


On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a
tiny load does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second
AP, bigger backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without
growing the whole power system proportionally.

Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware
now is using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble
useful data out of garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you
end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find
a licensed backhaul under 35W, and most of them are 50W+.  We
could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but building for a 20W
load takes the choice away.

A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W. 
Even 2400W would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar
to handle any load you might have is expensive, and building for
only low power handcuffs you.

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you
then it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.

-Adam

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that
having extra battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the
solar panels, so I'd probably go with Chuck's numbers for
batteries if I was putting something together now, and solar
panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts (if mounting
space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying to
fit it on a pole).

A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6
of those would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At
$1500 (which is mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from
where I started at $1k), I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate,
aside from the battery costs.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central
NY State I’m 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I
did a site like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel
(I think the actual load is around 15 watts, so a bit more
than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had some issues in January
a couple years, but I attributed that more to using cheap
flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With
AGMs, it's gotten through the last couple of winters without
issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had for around $800, last I
checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500 when you add in
enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure,
backup batteries, power supply), so that offsets it a bit.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:

Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in
mountain top location for a 20 watt load I would do the
following that has never failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these
days.

2 weeks of battery autonomy.

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[TJ Trout]

Way cheaper to use lifepo4 now than using telecom lead acid if you look at
the whole picture

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:03 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:

> LiFePO4. There are a few different ways you can go with that though. You
> can get something like these:
> https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/eve-lf280k which I think
> actually comes out slightly cheaper than SLA/AGM, but then you need a
> separate BMS, or you can get something like this:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/166234057827 which is made to be a drop in
> replacement for lead acids, and has a built in BMS.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:37 PM  wrote:
>
>> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>>
>> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to
>> buy Lithium.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
>> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
>> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
>> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
>> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
>> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
>> which means you need more power.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>>
>> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load
>> does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
>> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
>> system proportionally.
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
>> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
>> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
>> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
>> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
>> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>>
>>
>>
>> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W
>> would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load
>> you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
>> you.
>>
>> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
>> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
>> battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
>> probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
>> together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
>> (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
>> to fit it on a pole).
>>
>>
>>
>> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
>> would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
>> mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
>> I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>>
>> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
>> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>>
>> What’s your latitude?
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
>> like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
>> is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
>> some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
>> cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's
>> gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can
>> be had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500
>> when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
>> that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries,
>> power supply), so that offsets it a bit.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top
>> location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed
>> me:
>>
>>
>>
>> Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

LiFePO4. There are a few different ways you can go with that though. You
can get something like these:
https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/eve-lf280k which I think
actually comes out slightly cheaper than SLA/AGM, but then you need a
separate BMS, or you can get something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166234057827 which is made to be a drop in
replacement for lead acids, and has a built in BMS.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:37 PM  wrote:

> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>
> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to
> buy Lithium.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
> which means you need more power.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>
> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load
> does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
> system proportionally.
>
>
>
> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>
>
>
> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W
> would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load
> you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
> you.
>
> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
> battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
> probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
> together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
> (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
> to fit it on a pole).
>
>
>
> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
> would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
> mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
> I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>
> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>
> What’s your latitude?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
> like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
> is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
> some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
> cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's
> gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can
> be had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500
> when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
> that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries,
> power supply), so that offsets it a bit.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
> Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top
> location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed
> me:
>
>
>
> Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
>
> 2 weeks of battery autonomy.
>
> 20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
>
> Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
>
>
>
> $2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top
> of Utah mountains.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard
>
> 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[dmmoffett]

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?  

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to buy 
Lithium.  

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space 
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever, so 
you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant 
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would 
be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and the 
initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required, which means you 
need more power.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load does 
make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or 
anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power system 
proportionally.

 

Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is using a 
lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of garbage or for 
beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d be 
hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and most of them are 50W+.  
We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but building for a 20W load takes 
the choice away.  

 

A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W would 
power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load you might 
have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then it’s 
good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra 
battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd 
probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something 
together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts (if 
mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying to fit it 
on a pole). 

 

A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those would 
give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is mostly just 
adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right in 
line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m 2 
degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site like 
that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load is 
around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had some 
issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using cheap 
flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten 
through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had for 
around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500 when you add 
in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts that are needed 
with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries, power supply), so 
that offsets it a bit.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top 
location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed me:

 

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.  

2 weeks of battery autonomy.  

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

 

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top of 
Utah mountains.  

 

 

 

From: Mathew Howard 

Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can be 
done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put 
together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

 

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I can save you 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
which means you need more power.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:

> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load
> does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
> system proportionally.
>
>
>
> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>
>
>
> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W
> would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load
> you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
> you.
>
> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
> battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
> probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
> together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
> (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
> to fit it on a pole).
>
>
>
> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
> would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
> mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
> I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>
> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>
> What’s your latitude?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
> like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
> is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
> some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
> cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's
> gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can
> be had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500
> when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
> that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries,
> power supply), so that offsets it a bit.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
> Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top
> location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed
> me:
>
>
>
> Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
>
> 2 weeks of battery autonomy.
>
> 20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
>
> Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
>
>
>
> $2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top
> of Utah mountains.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can
> be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put
> together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:
>
> I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be
> cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to
> design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our
> latitude we only get a few hours of average production per day during those
> months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to
> ride through that on mostly