Re: [AFMUG] DWDM/CWDM Magic

[Mike Hammett]

Both. However, when they're providing regen, you're not really getting dark 
fiber anymore, you're getting spectrum as a service. You don't get a 1 gigabit 
or 10 gigabit wave, you're getting 100 GHz, 112 GHz, 200 Ghz, etc. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "TJ Trout"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2024 12:33:00 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM/CWDM Magic 


Purely for curiosity what if you want to lease a span that requires Regen? Do 
you negotiate to install your own amps? Or is it common for the DF provider to 
provide Regen? 


On Mon, May 6, 2024, 9:51 AM Dan P via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 





Not to mention Zayo has a way of adding on tons of random fees so that $700 
floor really is like a 1k floor 



From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Mike Hammett 
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2024 5:22 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM/CWDM Magic 


$700 seems to be Zayo's floor. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 







From: "Zach Underwood" < zunder1...@gmail.com > 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 10:27:33 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM/CWDM Magic 

We pay $700 per month for a pair of dark fiber about 6km route from our data 
center to one of our sites both in downtown Atlanta from zayo. We run 40gbps 
10km optics. 



On Fri, May 3, 2024, 11:04 PM Chris Fabien < ch...@lakenetmi.com > wrote: 


We have seen an extremely wide range of prices for dark fiber leases, 
it's one of these things where every situation and provider is 
different. I have been quoted prices over $100/mo per strand-mile and 
as low as $15/mo/strand-mile. A lot of the value seems to be what they 
suspect you're going to try to do with the strands. 50 Miles to a 
datacenter, you're gonna be running NxDWDM 100gig waves, big money. 
Shorter local/metro distance that maybe gets you between your NOC and 
a small/WISP style tower, or maybe grabbing a piece of an "island" run 
that can't even connect to anything else, much more reasonable prices. 

On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 5:50 PM Darin Steffl < darin.ste...@mnwifi.com > wrote: 
> 
> For those of you who have dark fiber access, what kind of costs do you have? 
> 
> I'm thinking more of the cost to access these strands? IRU costs, lease, 
> swaps with other providers, etc? 
> 
> I want some sort of ballpark costs to know what's reasonable when we start 
> looking at this over wavelengths for shorter paths. 
> 
> On Thu, May 2, 2024, 2:50 PM Chris Fabien < ch...@lakenetmi.com > wrote: 
>> 
>> Mark, we do exactly this on a segment where we have leased 2 strands 
>> of dark fiber on a 30mile path. The ends of the run have 8-ch DWDM 
>> Muxes and we have two spots along the run where we have an OADM in a 
>> splice case to drop out a wavelength. At those points, we set a 
>> handhole next to the carrier's handhole, and they looped the 2 strands 
>> onto a 12F jumper into our case, so our OADM is in our case, in our 
>> handhole. Just be sure your optical margins are planned for any 
>> potential add/drop points because each does have some loss. 
>> 
>> On Thu, May 2, 2024 at 12:41 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies via AF 
>> < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 
>> > 
>> > We may have the opportunity to grab 2 strands of dark fiber. These will 
>> > allow us to build a loop between two points on our network. We have been 
>> > told we can also break into this fiber within our loop. I'm guessing when 
>> > we break into this fiber they will just extend the dark fiber into our 
>> > handhole and we will be responsible to figure out what we do once we cut 
>> > into that fiber. 
>> > 
>> > I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to do this passively so we 
>> > don't have to depend on having our loop run though a customers location. I 
>> > was thinking of CWDM. I can setup a CWDM/DWDM at our site and send 
>> > multiple wave lengths down the fiber. Is there a way for me to break out 
>> > just one wavelength at a hand hole passively? 
>> > 
>> > Let's say I have a North/South run of 2 strands going though a hand hole 
>> > and I what to break out 1270nm for a customer. Is there away for me in the 
>> > hand hole, passively, to peel off just 1270nm. Put something like a 1x2 
>> > splitter in on N1, N2, S1, S2 and send those 4 fibers into the customer 
>> > site. Then install a couple of 1270nm optics in a switch to preserve the 
>> > loop for that one customer. 
>> > 
>> > Do the optics do all the magic or are there some type of filters in the 
>> > DWDM/CWDM modules? 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > -- 
>> > 
>> > Thanks, 
>> > Mark mailto: m...@mailmt.com 
>> > 
>> > Myakka Communications 
>> > www.Myakka.com 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > -- 
>> > AF mailing list 
>> > AF@af.afmug.com 
>> > 

Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)

[Trey Scarborough]

Nothing like some youtubers uneducated emotional opinion and oh you can 
save by using my code...


On 5/6/24 12:59 PM, Robert wrote:
I've watched her for years and she has, occasionally, some good 
stuff.  But on the whole she has gotten so into promoting what she was 
paid for and in a few cases gotten caught promoting bad products.


 She major league jumped on board a cell internet reseller and 
promoted a really dishonest company because she didn't wait long 
enough for the bad to come out.  Then claimed innocence...


 Well here she was again.  T-Mobile just chomped down on those people 
using T-mobile home service away from home.   If you want to do what 
she is promoting, it's now $160/month


 On _any_ cellular internet service, I say wait 1.5 years to find out 
if the provider is really going to support it or is it a bait and 
switch.   ATT did exactly that 4 years ago, even promoting the service 
with mobile users just to pull it all away after usage became too high 
in just over a year.


On 5/6/24 10:16 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

https://youtu.be/XcofyNWDyao?si=0ulY_LiFcb2HlnaY




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AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] LFP charging...

[TJ Trout]

100,000s of units sold to the diy community you are going to see some
failures... wonder how many are self induced

On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 12:07 PM Robert  wrote:

> I have 60KW of EG4s and am seeing more and more posts of failing BMSs on
> them.  They are showing up on the LFP auction sites for $500 with failed
> BMSs in higher and higher numbers.   Making me nervous of my rack
> reliability..
>
> On 5/7/24 11:36 AM, TJ Trout wrote:
>
> they would work fine at that voltage, but not 100% charged which is a good
> thing. Regular power supplies cannot divert current like a DRS-480 for
> example, so if your system goes to 0% and dies, when AC power is restored
> the power supplies will need to charge the batteries and power your load at
> the same time, if the minimum voltage of your equipment isn't met then you
> might still be offline for some time while the batteries charge up to the
> minimum equipment voltage... lifepo4 batteries are a great investment IMO
> and cheaper than lead if you look at the whole picture but I would avoid
> cheapy amazon batteries that are likely to have crap BMS that will fail.
> Stick with EG4 or other known good mfg.
>
> On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 10:52 AM Robert  wrote:
>
>> While I have used, read about, studied, and debated about LFP batteries,
>> one thing I cannot find an answer to:
>>
>> Is there a problem with using a regular voltage supply set to 13.4 volts
>> ( 90% ) charge to maintain a LFP battery for backup power use?   Is
>> there a need to buy a specialized battery charger like a samlex to
>> charge an LFP battery?
>>
>> Note that I am currently using regular power supplies to maintain a bank
>> of LFPs.   I just don't know if I am setting up for an issue in the
>> future...
>>
>> Self heating 12v batteries have reached a new low with one just
>> becoming available on Amazon for $229 and, with a netonix, that would be
>> a pretty simple system.
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Thank you,
>
> TJ Trout
> Volt Broadband
> 209.480.3122 Cell
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 
Thank you,

TJ Trout
Volt Broadband
209.480.3122 Cell
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] LFP charging...

[Robert]

I wouldn't use a home made battery in a production site.   _Every_ LFP 
battery I look at has a bms.   They are getting almost cheaper to buy 
with a bms than you can source new cells for without unless you go to 
the auction sites...


On 5/7/24 11:36 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
LFP batteries need a special charger unless they are equipped with a 
built-in BMS. Many, if not most 12V LFP batteries have a built-in BMS.



bp


On 5/7/2024 10:43 AM, Robert wrote:
While I have used, read about, studied, and debated about LFP 
batteries, one thing I cannot find an answer to:


Is there a problem with using a regular voltage supply set to 13.4 
volts ( 90% ) charge to maintain a LFP battery for backup power 
use?   Is there a need to buy a specialized battery charger like a 
samlex to charge an LFP battery?


Note that I am currently using regular power supplies to maintain a 
bank of LFPs.   I just don't know if I am setting up for an issue in 
the future...


   Self heating 12v batteries have reached a new low with one just 
becoming available on Amazon for $229 and, with a netonix, that would 
be a pretty simple system.







--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] LFP charging...

[Robert]

I have 60KW of EG4s and am seeing more and more posts of failing BMSs on 
them.  They are showing up on the LFP auction sites for $500 with failed 
BMSs in higher and higher numbers.   Making me nervous of my rack 
reliability..


On 5/7/24 11:36 AM, TJ Trout wrote:
they would work fine at that voltage, but not 100% charged which is a 
good thing. Regular power supplies cannot divert current like a 
DRS-480 for example, so if your system goes to 0% and dies, when AC 
power is restored the power supplies will need to charge the batteries 
and power your load at the same time, if the minimum voltage of your 
equipment isn't met then you might still be offline for some time 
while the batteries charge up to the minimum equipment voltage... 
lifepo4 batteries are a great investment IMO and cheaper than lead if 
you look at the whole picture but I would avoid cheapy amazon 
batteries that are likely to have crap BMS that will fail. Stick with 
EG4 or other known good mfg.


On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 10:52 AM Robert  wrote:

While I have used, read about, studied, and debated about LFP
batteries,
one thing I cannot find an answer to:

Is there a problem with using a regular voltage supply set to 13.4
volts
( 90% ) charge to maintain a LFP battery for backup power use?   Is
there a need to buy a specialized battery charger like a samlex to
charge an LFP battery?

Note that I am currently using regular power supplies to maintain
a bank
of LFPs.   I just don't know if I am setting up for an issue in the
future...

    Self heating 12v batteries have reached a new low with one just
becoming available on Amazon for $229 and, with a netonix, that
would be
a pretty simple system.

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



--
Thank you,

TJ Trout
Volt Broadband
209.480.3122 Cell

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] LFP charging...

[TJ Trout]

they would work fine at that voltage, but not 100% charged which is a good
thing. Regular power supplies cannot divert current like a DRS-480 for
example, so if your system goes to 0% and dies, when AC power is restored
the power supplies will need to charge the batteries and power your load at
the same time, if the minimum voltage of your equipment isn't met then you
might still be offline for some time while the batteries charge up to the
minimum equipment voltage... lifepo4 batteries are a great investment IMO
and cheaper than lead if you look at the whole picture but I would avoid
cheapy amazon batteries that are likely to have crap BMS that will fail.
Stick with EG4 or other known good mfg.

On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 10:52 AM Robert  wrote:

> While I have used, read about, studied, and debated about LFP batteries,
> one thing I cannot find an answer to:
>
> Is there a problem with using a regular voltage supply set to 13.4 volts
> ( 90% ) charge to maintain a LFP battery for backup power use?   Is
> there a need to buy a specialized battery charger like a samlex to
> charge an LFP battery?
>
> Note that I am currently using regular power supplies to maintain a bank
> of LFPs.   I just don't know if I am setting up for an issue in the
> future...
>
> Self heating 12v batteries have reached a new low with one just
> becoming available on Amazon for $229 and, with a netonix, that would be
> a pretty simple system.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 
Thank you,

TJ Trout
Volt Broadband
209.480.3122 Cell
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] LFP charging...

[Bill Prince]

LFP batteries need a special charger unless they are equipped with a 
built-in BMS. Many, if not most 12V LFP batteries have a built-in BMS.



bp


On 5/7/2024 10:43 AM, Robert wrote:
While I have used, read about, studied, and debated about LFP 
batteries, one thing I cannot find an answer to:


Is there a problem with using a regular voltage supply set to 13.4 
volts ( 90% ) charge to maintain a LFP battery for backup power use?   
Is there a need to buy a specialized battery charger like a samlex to 
charge an LFP battery?


Note that I am currently using regular power supplies to maintain a 
bank of LFPs.   I just don't know if I am setting up for an issue in 
the future...


   Self heating 12v batteries have reached a new low with one just 
becoming available on Amazon for $229 and, with a netonix, that would 
be a pretty simple system.




--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] LFP charging...

[Robert]

While I have used, read about, studied, and debated about LFP batteries, 
one thing I cannot find an answer to:


Is there a problem with using a regular voltage supply set to 13.4 volts 
( 90% ) charge to maintain a LFP battery for backup power use?   Is 
there a need to buy a specialized battery charger like a samlex to 
charge an LFP battery?


Note that I am currently using regular power supplies to maintain a bank 
of LFPs.   I just don't know if I am setting up for an issue in the 
future...


   Self heating 12v batteries have reached a new low with one just 
becoming available on Amazon for $229 and, with a netonix, that would be 
a pretty simple system.


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] DWDM/CWDM Magic

[TJ Trout]

Purely for curiosity what if you want to lease a span that requires Regen?
Do you negotiate to install your own amps? Or is it common for the DF
provider to provide Regen?

On Mon, May 6, 2024, 9:51 AM Dan P via AF  wrote:

> Not to mention Zayo has a way of adding on tons of random fees so that
> $700 floor really is like a 1k floor
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 05, 2024 5:22 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] DWDM/CWDM Magic
>
>
>
> $700 seems to be Zayo's floor.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
>
> *From: *"Zach Underwood" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Friday, May 3, 2024 10:27:33 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] DWDM/CWDM Magic
>
> We pay $700 per month for a pair of dark fiber about 6km route from our
> data center to one of our sites both in downtown Atlanta from zayo. We run
> 40gbps 10km optics.
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2024, 11:04 PM Chris Fabien  wrote:
>
> We have seen an extremely wide range of prices for dark fiber leases,
> it's one of these things where every situation and provider is
> different. I have been quoted prices over $100/mo per strand-mile and
> as low as $15/mo/strand-mile. A lot of the value seems to be what they
> suspect you're going to try to do with the strands. 50 Miles to a
> datacenter, you're gonna be running NxDWDM 100gig waves, big money.
> Shorter local/metro distance that maybe gets you between your NOC and
> a small/WISP style tower, or maybe grabbing a piece of an "island" run
> that can't even connect to anything else, much more reasonable prices.
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 5:50 PM Darin Steffl 
> wrote:
> >
> > For those of you who have dark fiber access, what kind of costs do you
> have?
> >
> > I'm thinking more of the cost to access these strands? IRU costs, lease,
> swaps with other providers, etc?
> >
> > I want some sort of ballpark costs to know what's reasonable when we
> start looking at this over wavelengths for shorter paths.
> >
> > On Thu, May 2, 2024, 2:50 PM Chris Fabien  wrote:
> >>
> >> Mark, we do exactly this on a segment where we have leased 2 strands
> >> of dark fiber on a 30mile path. The ends of the run have 8-ch DWDM
> >> Muxes and we have two spots along the run where we have an OADM in a
> >> splice case to drop out a wavelength. At those points, we set a
> >> handhole next to the carrier's handhole, and they looped the 2 strands
> >> onto a 12F jumper into our case, so our OADM is in our case, in our
> >> handhole. Just be sure your optical margins are planned for any
> >> potential add/drop points because each does have some loss.
> >>
> >> On Thu, May 2, 2024 at 12:41 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies via AF
> >>  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > We may have the opportunity to grab 2 strands of dark fiber.  These
> will allow us to build a loop between two points on our network.  We have
> been told we can also break into this fiber within our loop.  I'm guessing
> when we break into this fiber they will just extend the dark fiber into our
> handhole and we will be responsible to figure out what we do once we cut
> into that fiber.
> >> >
> >> > I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to do this passively so we
> don't have to depend on having our loop run though a customers location.  I
> was thinking of CWDM.  I can setup a CWDM/DWDM at our site and send
> multiple wave lengths down the fiber.  Is there a way for me to break out
> just one wavelength at a hand hole passively?
> >> >
> >> > Let's say I have a North/South run of 2 strands going though a hand
> hole and I what to break out 1270nm for a customer.  Is there away for me
> in the hand hole, passively, to peel off just 1270nm.  Put something like a
> 1x2 splitter in on N1, N2, S1, S2 and send those 4 fibers into the customer
> site.  Then install a couple of 1270nm optics in a switch to preserve the
> loop for that one customer.
> >> >
> >> > Do the optics do all the magic or are there some type of filters in
> the DWDM/CWDM modules?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com
> >> >
> >> > Myakka Communications
> >> > www.Myakka.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > AF mailing list
> >> > AF@af.afmug.com
> >> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >>
> >> --
> >> AF 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

[Ken Hohhof]

These kids today with their neural implants.  In my day, we had to use our 
fingers to point and click.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2024 9:13 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

My first was a Commodore 128, which you almost always ran in C64 mode because 
most of the software was written for the C64 rather than break compatibility 
with the established user base.  I was probably 7 years old.  If anyone had a 
Commodore you may recall that the OS was a BASIC interpreter.  Remember LOAD 
"*",8,1 ?

My dad was a controls technician, and he got the Commodore because he had to 
learn how to program logic controllers in BASIC.  They still controlled 
machinery with more basic components, but digital controllers were the path 
forward because you could change or correct a process machine without rewiring 
it.  He had a book of example programs and I would type them out and run them.  
By age 9 I could do some pretty solid GOTO and GOSUB spaghetti.  In high school 
the drafting class started with pencils and then you transitioned to AutoCAD in 
the 2nd year, and then I learned LISP because AutoCAD had a LISP interpreter 
built in.  

I think in the mid 90's there was a crop of kids that grew up in a world of 
scripts and BASIC code on Apples and Commodores. DOS .bat scripts too.  When 
you wanted to hire entry level PC repair or tech support people there was this 
pool of kids who already had useful knowledge and interest.  I don't know how 
today's youth learn anything in the pointy-clicky world they grow up in, but 
I'd bet it's not so easy to hire young nerds.

I also wonder if you old guys feel the same about me.  "Spoiled kid grew up 
with high level languages.  He'll never understand digital logic like we do 
since we had to learn with paper tapes, and switches, and punch cards." 

Was there some guy from the 1930's saying "Kids these days with their punch 
cards!  They never had to place instructions on a mechanical drum computer so 
they'll never understand the sequencing and timing like we do."

-Adam

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2024 2:56 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

Oh yeah. My first interaction with a computer was at the local JC in northern 
Minnesota. We had a teletype that was connected to "something" 
at U of M in Minneapolis. We would punch out programs (I think in Basic or 
Fortran) onto paper tape, then feed the program through the paper tape reader 
attached to the teletype.

The first computer I ever touched was one made by Olivetti. It was a desktop 
thing roughly 2'x2', and maybe 6 or 8 inches tall. Programs could be keyed in 
through a front keypad, and stored on a magnetic card about the same size as a 
Hollerith card. Memory was very limited, I remember only about 120 or so words, 
but it had a couple dozen registers. You could sacrifice some of the registers 
to hold instructions, and stretch your program beyond 120 words depending on 
how cleverly you could sacrifice registers. The thing had 2 lights above the 
keypad, one green and one red. The green light would flash every time an 
instruction was executed (about 1 per second, except for floating point). 
Floating point instructions took several seconds each. If you did something 
illegal (like divide by zero), the red light would come on, and the program 
halted.

My bit-banging days were with a little company called EMR (Electro-Mechanical 
Research IIRC). Big ass machine maybe 20 or 25 feet long and almost 7 feet 
tall. Had core memory measured in KB (way less than 1 MB). Rather than cooling 
the core memory, it was kept in an oven that held it at a constant 50° C (or 
close to that). It took two "cards" 
to make a flip flop; each card was roughly 4x4 inches and would have either 
AND, OR, NAND, NOR gates on it. They would cross-couple a couple of NAND gates 
to make 1 flip flop. Discrete components; all diodes and transistors. When we 
repaired a problem; usually isolated to a single card, we would take the bad 
card back to the shop and replace the bad diode or transistor.


bp


On 5/3/2024 10:51 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> First computer I actually programmed was an altair 8080 programmed 
> with the front panel switches.
> First computer I ever touched and played with was a terminal connected 
> to a mainframe somewhere in a science museum in Oregon. It had a moon 
> lander simulator on it.
>
> -Original Message- From: Bill Prince
> Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 11:24 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction 
> Code
>
> I programmed the first computers I worked on in binary. You would 
> fat-finger instructions in through the front console, one bit at a time.
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 5/3/2024 10:12 AM, 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

[dmmoffett]

My first was a Commodore 128, which you almost always ran in C64 mode because 
most of the software was written for the C64 rather than break compatibility 
with the established user base.  I was probably 7 years old.  If anyone had a 
Commodore you may recall that the OS was a BASIC interpreter.  Remember LOAD 
"*",8,1 ?

My dad was a controls technician, and he got the Commodore because he had to 
learn how to program logic controllers in BASIC.  They still controlled 
machinery with more basic components, but digital controllers were the path 
forward because you could change or correct a process machine without rewiring 
it.  He had a book of example programs and I would type them out and run them.  
By age 9 I could do some pretty solid GOTO and GOSUB spaghetti.  In high school 
the drafting class started with pencils and then you transitioned to AutoCAD in 
the 2nd year, and then I learned LISP because AutoCAD had a LISP interpreter 
built in.  

I think in the mid 90's there was a crop of kids that grew up in a world of 
scripts and BASIC code on Apples and Commodores. DOS .bat scripts too.  When 
you wanted to hire entry level PC repair or tech support people there was this 
pool of kids who already had useful knowledge and interest.  I don't know how 
today's youth learn anything in the pointy-clicky world they grow up in, but 
I'd bet it's not so easy to hire young nerds.

I also wonder if you old guys feel the same about me.  "Spoiled kid grew up 
with high level languages.  He'll never understand digital logic like we do 
since we had to learn with paper tapes, and switches, and punch cards." 

Was there some guy from the 1930's saying "Kids these days with their punch 
cards!  They never had to place instructions on a mechanical drum computer so 
they'll never understand the sequencing and timing like we do."

-Adam

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2024 2:56 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

Oh yeah. My first interaction with a computer was at the local JC in northern 
Minnesota. We had a teletype that was connected to "something" 
at U of M in Minneapolis. We would punch out programs (I think in Basic or 
Fortran) onto paper tape, then feed the program through the paper tape reader 
attached to the teletype.

The first computer I ever touched was one made by Olivetti. It was a desktop 
thing roughly 2'x2', and maybe 6 or 8 inches tall. Programs could be keyed in 
through a front keypad, and stored on a magnetic card about the same size as a 
Hollerith card. Memory was very limited, I remember only about 120 or so words, 
but it had a couple dozen registers. You could sacrifice some of the registers 
to hold instructions, and stretch your program beyond 120 words depending on 
how cleverly you could sacrifice registers. The thing had 2 lights above the 
keypad, one green and one red. The green light would flash every time an 
instruction was executed (about 1 per second, except for floating point). 
Floating point instructions took several seconds each. If you did something 
illegal (like divide by zero), the red light would come on, and the program 
halted.

My bit-banging days were with a little company called EMR (Electro-Mechanical 
Research IIRC). Big ass machine maybe 20 or 25 feet long and almost 7 feet 
tall. Had core memory measured in KB (way less than 1 MB). Rather than cooling 
the core memory, it was kept in an oven that held it at a constant 50° C (or 
close to that). It took two "cards" 
to make a flip flop; each card was roughly 4x4 inches and would have either 
AND, OR, NAND, NOR gates on it. They would cross-couple a couple of NAND gates 
to make 1 flip flop. Discrete components; all diodes and transistors. When we 
repaired a problem; usually isolated to a single card, we would take the bad 
card back to the shop and replace the bad diode or transistor.


bp


On 5/3/2024 10:51 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> First computer I actually programmed was an altair 8080 programmed 
> with the front panel switches.
> First computer I ever touched and played with was a terminal connected 
> to a mainframe somewhere in a science museum in Oregon. It had a moon 
> lander simulator on it.
>
> -Original Message- From: Bill Prince
> Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 11:24 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction 
> Code
>
> I programmed the first computers I worked on in binary. You would 
> fat-finger instructions in through the front console, one bit at a time.
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 5/3/2024 10:12 AM, Larry Smith via AF wrote:
>> On Fri May 3 2024 11:37, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>> At least I am not older than FORmula TRANslation or Common Business 
>>> Oriented Language.
>> Hmmm, I programmed in both
>>
>

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