Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ken Hohhof]

When you mention playing God, this Far Side cartoon comes to mind.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Darin Steffl
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 4:20 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

We didn't switch to Preseem for the price. We paid more for saisei when it was 
the throughout pricing model and it was just too complicated. It was cool like 
procera but I felt like we were playing God with shaping certain categories 
like video, Xbox downloads, etc and I was spending too much time tinkering.

 

My effort was better spent in preseem fixing problems like interference on 
backhauls, congested ap's, spending money elevating our network to epmp. 

 

So having tried them all so to speak, I would still pick preseem again knowing 
that I spend more time on selling service and upgrading our network instead of 
playing God and shaping down video and updates. It was fun but then I did start 
to feel bad about it. 

 

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018, 3:58 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com>  wrote:

I know that WISPs tend to like things in inverse proportion to their price.  
And it appears that Procera, Saisei and Preseem are in the ballpark of 4x, 2x 
and 1x on price.  It’s easier to compare Saisei and Preseem since they both 
have per subscriber pricing.

 

All the comments about Preseem have been that it works good, not that it’s 
cheaper, but I have to ask.  If the price per subscriber was the same between 
Saisei and Preseem, would you still prefer Preseem?

 

It does make sense that supporting DPI and constantly updating the DPI 
signatures would cost more than a flow based product that doesn’t try to do 
DPI.  I also understand (maybe) the fact that with DPI you have to configure 
and constantly tweak the policies according to what you want to prioritize, and 
that maybe it’s better to have something that you just plug it in and it just 
works.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Darin Steffl
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're cool 
and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on attention 
and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't tell where 
you have trouble in your network or individual customers like you can with 
preseem. 

 

We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so don't 
even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video, updates, 
etc because thats not what it is. 

 

It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys do 
all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out there 
and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a bad 
experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does your rate 
plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now max out their 
rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy gaming or slow web 
browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns, web browsing, gaming to 
"jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like video and updates don't slow 
everything down. 

 

It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was able to 
run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse without any 
lag or buffering whatsoever. 

 

I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy campers. 

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett mailto:af...@ics-il.net>  wrote:

Bufferbloat is over-hyped.

Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html

 



-
Mike Hammett
 <http://www.ics-il.com/> Intelligent Computing Solutions
 <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>  
<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>  
<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> 
 <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> Midwest Internet Exchange
 <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>  
<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> 
 <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> The Brothers WISP
 <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>  
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> 





  _  


From: "Ken Hohhof" mailto:af...@kwisp.com> >
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from?

 

It can’t be from rate queues.  The highest we set our Mikrotik queues is around 
40 packets before they start dropping packets.  We have pushed the queue

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ken Hohhof]

OK, good explanation.  Thanks.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Darin Steffl
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 4:20 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

We didn't switch to Preseem for the price. We paid more for saisei when it was 
the throughout pricing model and it was just too complicated. It was cool like 
procera but I felt like we were playing God with shaping certain categories 
like video, Xbox downloads, etc and I was spending too much time tinkering.

 

My effort was better spent in preseem fixing problems like interference on 
backhauls, congested ap's, spending money elevating our network to epmp. 

 

So having tried them all so to speak, I would still pick preseem again knowing 
that I spend more time on selling service and upgrading our network instead of 
playing God and shaping down video and updates. It was fun but then I did start 
to feel bad about it. 

 

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018, 3:58 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com>  wrote:

I know that WISPs tend to like things in inverse proportion to their price.  
And it appears that Procera, Saisei and Preseem are in the ballpark of 4x, 2x 
and 1x on price.  It’s easier to compare Saisei and Preseem since they both 
have per subscriber pricing.

 

All the comments about Preseem have been that it works good, not that it’s 
cheaper, but I have to ask.  If the price per subscriber was the same between 
Saisei and Preseem, would you still prefer Preseem?

 

It does make sense that supporting DPI and constantly updating the DPI 
signatures would cost more than a flow based product that doesn’t try to do 
DPI.  I also understand (maybe) the fact that with DPI you have to configure 
and constantly tweak the policies according to what you want to prioritize, and 
that maybe it’s better to have something that you just plug it in and it just 
works.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Darin Steffl
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're cool 
and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on attention 
and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't tell where 
you have trouble in your network or individual customers like you can with 
preseem. 

 

We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so don't 
even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video, updates, 
etc because thats not what it is. 

 

It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys do 
all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out there 
and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a bad 
experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does your rate 
plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now max out their 
rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy gaming or slow web 
browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns, web browsing, gaming to 
"jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like video and updates don't slow 
everything down. 

 

It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was able to 
run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse without any 
lag or buffering whatsoever. 

 

I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy campers. 

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett mailto:af...@ics-il.net>  wrote:

Bufferbloat is over-hyped.

Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html

 



-
Mike Hammett
 <http://www.ics-il.com/> Intelligent Computing Solutions
 <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>  
<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>  
<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> 
 <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> Midwest Internet Exchange
 <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>  
<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> 
 <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> The Brothers WISP
 <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>  
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> 





  _  


From: "Ken Hohhof" mailto:af...@kwisp.com> >
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from?

 

It can’t be from rate queues.  The highest we set our Mikrotik queues is around 
40 packets before they start dropping packets.  We have pushed the queue depth 
higher to signal conges

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Darin Steffl]

We didn't switch to Preseem for the price. We paid more for saisei when it
was the throughout pricing model and it was just too complicated. It was
cool like procera but I felt like we were playing God with shaping certain
categories like video, Xbox downloads, etc and I was spending too much time
tinkering.

My effort was better spent in preseem fixing problems like interference on
backhauls, congested ap's, spending money elevating our network to epmp.

So having tried them all so to speak, I would still pick preseem again
knowing that I spend more time on selling service and upgrading our network
instead of playing God and shaping down video and updates. It was fun but
then I did start to feel bad about it.

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018, 3:58 PM Ken Hohhof  I know that WISPs tend to like things in inverse proportion to their
> price.  And it appears that Procera, Saisei and Preseem are in the ballpark
> of 4x, 2x and 1x on price.  It’s easier to compare Saisei and Preseem since
> they both have per subscriber pricing.
>
>
>
> All the comments about Preseem have been that it works good, not that it’s
> cheaper, but I have to ask.  If the price per subscriber was the same
> between Saisei and Preseem, would you still prefer Preseem?
>
>
>
> It does make sense that supporting DPI and constantly updating the DPI
> signatures would cost more than a flow based product that doesn’t try to do
> DPI.  I also understand (maybe) the fact that with DPI you have to
> configure and constantly tweak the policies according to what you want to
> prioritize, and that maybe it’s better to have something that you just plug
> it in and it just works.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Darin Steffl
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>
>
>
> I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're
> cool and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on
> attention and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't
> tell where you have trouble in your network or individual customers like
> you can with preseem.
>
>
>
> We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so
> don't even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video,
> updates, etc because thats not what it is.
>
>
>
> It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys
> do all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out
> there and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a
> bad experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does
> your rate plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now
> max out their rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy
> gaming or slow web browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns,
> web browsing, gaming to "jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like
> video and updates don't slow everything down.
>
>
>
> It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was
> able to run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse
> without any lag or buffering whatsoever.
>
>
>
> I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy
> campers.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett 
> Bufferbloat is over-hyped.
>
> Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> [image: Image removed by sender.] <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[image:
> Image removed by sender.]
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[image:
> Image removed by sender.]
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[image:
> Image removed by sender.] <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> [image: Image removed by sender.] <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[image:
> Image removed by sender.]
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[image: Image
> removed by sender.] <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> [image: Image removed by sender.]
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[image: Image removed by
> sender.]
>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --
>
> *From: *"Ken Hohhof" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:5

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ken Hohhof]

I know that WISPs tend to like things in inverse proportion to their price.  
And it appears that Procera, Saisei and Preseem are in the ballpark of 4x, 2x 
and 1x on price.  It’s easier to compare Saisei and Preseem since they both 
have per subscriber pricing.

 

All the comments about Preseem have been that it works good, not that it’s 
cheaper, but I have to ask.  If the price per subscriber was the same between 
Saisei and Preseem, would you still prefer Preseem?

 

It does make sense that supporting DPI and constantly updating the DPI 
signatures would cost more than a flow based product that doesn’t try to do 
DPI.  I also understand (maybe) the fact that with DPI you have to configure 
and constantly tweak the policies according to what you want to prioritize, and 
that maybe it’s better to have something that you just plug it in and it just 
works.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Darin Steffl
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're cool 
and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on attention 
and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't tell where 
you have trouble in your network or individual customers like you can with 
preseem. 

 

We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so don't 
even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video, updates, 
etc because thats not what it is. 

 

It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys do 
all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out there 
and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a bad 
experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does your rate 
plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now max out their 
rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy gaming or slow web 
browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns, web browsing, gaming to 
"jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like video and updates don't slow 
everything down. 

 

It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was able to 
run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse without any 
lag or buffering whatsoever. 

 

I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy campers. 

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett mailto:af...@ics-il.net>  wrote:

Bufferbloat is over-hyped.

Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html

 



-
Mike Hammett
 <http://www.ics-il.com/> Intelligent Computing Solutions
 <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>  
<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>  
<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> 
 <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> Midwest Internet Exchange
 <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>  
<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> 
 <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> The Brothers WISP
 <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>  
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> 





  _  


From: "Ken Hohhof" mailto:af...@kwisp.com> >
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from?

 

It can’t be from rate queues.  The highest we set our Mikrotik queues is around 
40 packets before they start dropping packets.  We have pushed the queue depth 
higher to signal congestion to TCP Vegas style implementations.  But at 10 Mbps 
that’s still only ~40 milliseconds of delay.  I don’t think that qualifies as 
bufferbloat.

 

Where in a typical WISP network are these huge buffers?  Are you talking about 
APs at 100% of capacity?  I admit I don’t know how much data an AP will buffer 
waiting for a timeslot to send the data over the air.  But the only time I see 
latencies soar toward 1 second under load is on my one hated WiMAX basestation, 
and I think that may be due to excessive HARQ retries or something.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Dev
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:41 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I looked at a couple variations of buffer bloat management, and have decided to 
build my own and maybe just open source the thing for “people who feel 50K 
seems excessive” and just need some basic functionality on a vanilla Linux box. 
The open source tech is out there, it’s just tying it all together in some sane

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ken Hohhof]

In my experience DirecTV On Demand is a fixed 5 Mbps, if it doesn’t find that 
available, it tells you that your Internet is too slow to watch now, and you 
have to download to your DVR and watch later (which nobody wants to do).

 

Hulu says you need 8 Mbps for Hulu Live.  Most live TV is probably going to be 
single stream rate and not as efficiently compressed as your regular 
Netflix/Hulu/Youtube stuff because the video is being compressed on-the-fly.  I 
know we get a lot of people who can watch multiple Netflix streams saying they 
can’t watch live sports without it stopping and starting.  As people cancel 
their satellite TV and start streaming live TV, we’ve been getting complaints 
that suddenly their Internet is too slow and video is starting and stopping.  
Various services like Sling, networks like CBS, and I think also some OTT 
streaming service from AT  We also get the occasional customer watching some 
Christian TV station on the Internet and having problems.

 

So I don’t think all video streams are the same.

 

I’d like to tell people if Netflix works and ESPN doesn’t, then it’s an ESPN 
problem, but you know how some people are about their sports.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Darin Steffl
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 2:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

For fail over, there is no reason why you should worry. You can easily use OSPF 
or other redundancy methods to route around the preseem in the event of a 
failure. I don't mean to offend but you may want to brush up on that if you 
don't know about it already.

 

In response to the magic about preseem, it's not magic at all. It uses fq_codel 
to shape traffic like they reference on their website and it does Not target 
certain streams or know that something needs more bandwidth. Almost all video 
had variable bitrate now so if you have 10 meg plan and you're running 3 video 
streams, it should split them about equal to 3.33 mbps for each stream. If 
Netflix drops down to 2.5 mbps then there's a little extra left over for the 
other streams. What doesn't change is that the small flows that don't use much 
throughout will always go to the front of the queue to make sure they get 
priority over the big flows. 

 

Preseem classifies it as "mice flows" and "elephant flows" 

 

I don't know of any video services that don't have variable bitrate. All the 
ones I use have that: Netflix, YouTube, Hulu, etc. 

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 2:52 PM Richard Strittmatter mailto:rich...@mesh.net>  wrote:

We just have failover OSPF connections between the routers.

Core <-> preseem <-> access network

+

Core <-> access network  ( at a higher OSPF cost )

 

Simple. If the preseem fails, it routes around it. We are currently building 
our second  preseem box to split the load ( because they only have 10GB 
interfaces )

 

Richard Strittmatter

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> ] On 
Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:46 PM
To: AFMUG mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

A concern that I have with Preseam (or any other vendor like this) is that it 
requires me to put a single box (usually a Dell server) right in-line with all 
of my customer traffic.  All of a sudden, my entire customer network is reliant 
on a single Dell server.  I know that Procera and maybe some other vendors 
offered bypass modules for this type of thing, but what are Preseam customers 
doing?  Is this not a concern for you?

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 2:40 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

That’s what bothers me about Preseem, it sounds like it works by magic.  Every 
time in the past I’ve bought into magical solutions, I’ve been burned.

 

I don’t know how you decide between a Windows 10 Update, an Xbox game download, 
a Netflix stream that with variable video quality, and a live sports video 
stream that has a single stream rate and will buffer or skip if it doesn’t get 
10 Mbps … unless you identify the application via either DPI or something 
equivalent.

 

Apparently Preseem allocates the bandwidth based on how the flow acts?  I still 
don’t see how it can know that the software download can be deferred or slowed 
until off-peak, the Netflix stream can be squeezed to 2.5 Mbps, but the live 
sports stream needs a certain bitrate or it just won’t work.

 

Of course there’s also a bigger problem.  If you talk to the kid trying to 
download the latest 50 gigabyte game and play it, that should get 100% of the 
bandwidth.  But we’re never going to solve that one, unless we give customers a 
portal where they can tweak the knobs themselves.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Darin Steffl 

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Richard Strittmatter]

They don’t.

It’s merely a bridge. On either side of it is usually a router…

 

Richard

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 2:35 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

Ah - didn’t realize they supported routing.  Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 13, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Richard Strittmatter mailto:rich...@mesh.net> > wrote:

We just have failover OSPF connections between the routers.

Core <-> preseem <-> access network

+

Core <-> access network  ( at a higher OSPF cost )

 

Simple. If the preseem fails, it routes around it. We are currently building 
our second  preseem box to split the load ( because they only have 10GB 
interfaces )

 

Richard Strittmatter

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:46 PM
To: AFMUG mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

A concern that I have with Preseam (or any other vendor like this) is that it 
requires me to put a single box (usually a Dell server) right in-line with all 
of my customer traffic.  All of a sudden, my entire customer network is reliant 
on a single Dell server.  I know that Procera and maybe some other vendors 
offered bypass modules for this type of thing, but what are Preseam customers 
doing?  Is this not a concern for you?

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 2:40 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

That’s what bothers me about Preseem, it sounds like it works by magic.  Every 
time in the past I’ve bought into magical solutions, I’ve been burned.

 

I don’t know how you decide between a Windows 10 Update, an Xbox game download, 
a Netflix stream that with variable video quality, and a live sports video 
stream that has a single stream rate and will buffer or skip if it doesn’t get 
10 Mbps … unless you identify the application via either DPI or something 
equivalent.

 

Apparently Preseem allocates the bandwidth based on how the flow acts?  I still 
don’t see how it can know that the software download can be deferred or slowed 
until off-peak, the Netflix stream can be squeezed to 2.5 Mbps, but the live 
sports stream needs a certain bitrate or it just won’t work.

 

Of course there’s also a bigger problem.  If you talk to the kid trying to 
download the latest 50 gigabyte game and play it, that should get 100% of the 
bandwidth.  But we’re never going to solve that one, unless we give customers a 
portal where they can tweak the knobs themselves.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Darin Steffl 

Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're cool 
and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on attention 
and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't tell where 
you have trouble in your network or individual customers like you can with 
preseem. 

 

We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so don't 
even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video, updates, 
etc because thats not what it is. 

 

It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys do 
all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out there 
and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a bad 
experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does your rate 
plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now max out their 
rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy gaming or slow web 
browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns, web browsing, gaming to 
"jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like video and updates don't slow 
everything down. 

 

It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was able to 
run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse without any 
lag or buffering whatsoever. 

 

I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy campers. 

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett mailto:af...@ics-il.net>  wrote:

Bufferbloat is over-hyped.

Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html

 



-
Mike Hammett
 <http://www.ics-il.com/> Intelligent Computing Solutions
 <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>  
<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> 
 <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> 
 <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> Midwest Internet E

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Josh Baird]

Ah - didn’t realize they supported routing.  Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 13, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Richard Strittmatter  wrote:
> 
> We just have failover OSPF connections between the routers.
> Core <-> preseem <-> access network
> +
> Core <-> access network  ( at a higher OSPF cost )
>  
> Simple. If the preseem fails, it routes around it. We are currently building 
> our second  preseem box to split the load ( because they only have 10GB 
> interfaces )
>  
> Richard Strittmatter
>  
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Baird
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:46 PM
> To: AFMUG 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>  
> A concern that I have with Preseam (or any other vendor like this) is that it 
> requires me to put a single box (usually a Dell server) right in-line with 
> all of my customer traffic.  All of a sudden, my entire customer network is 
> reliant on a single Dell server.  I know that Procera and maybe some other 
> vendors offered bypass modules for this type of thing, but what are Preseam 
> customers doing?  Is this not a concern for you?
>  
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 2:40 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> That’s what bothers me about Preseem, it sounds like it works by magic.  
> Every time in the past I’ve bought into magical solutions, I’ve been burned.
>  
> I don’t know how you decide between a Windows 10 Update, an Xbox game 
> download, a Netflix stream that with variable video quality, and a live 
> sports video stream that has a single stream rate and will buffer or skip if 
> it doesn’t get 10 Mbps … unless you identify the application via either DPI 
> or something equivalent.
>  
> Apparently Preseem allocates the bandwidth based on how the flow acts?  I 
> still don’t see how it can know that the software download can be deferred or 
> slowed until off-peak, the Netflix stream can be squeezed to 2.5 Mbps, but 
> the live sports stream needs a certain bitrate or it just won’t work.
>  
> Of course there’s also a bigger problem.  If you talk to the kid trying to 
> download the latest 50 gigabyte game and play it, that should get 100% of the 
> bandwidth.  But we’re never going to solve that one, unless we give customers 
> a portal where they can tweak the knobs themselves.
>  
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Darin Steffl  
>           
>  
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>  
> I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're 
> cool and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on 
> attention and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't 
> tell where you have trouble in your network or individual customers like you 
> can with preseem. 
>  
> We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so don't 
> even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video, 
> updates, etc because thats not what it is. 
>  
> It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys do 
> all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out there 
> and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a bad 
> experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does your rate 
> plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now max out 
> their rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy gaming or 
> slow web browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns, web 
> browsing, gaming to "jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like video 
> and updates don't slow everything down. 
>  
> It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was able 
> to run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse without 
> any lag or buffering whatsoever. 
>  
> I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy 
> campers. 
>  
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett  Bufferbloat is over-hyped.
> 
> Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html
>  
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> 
> The Brothers WISP
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
> 
> Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from?
>  
> It can’t be from rate queues.  The high

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Darin Steffl]

For fail over, there is no reason why you should worry. You can easily use
OSPF or other redundancy methods to route around the preseem in the event
of a failure. I don't mean to offend but you may want to brush up on that
if you don't know about it already.

In response to the magic about preseem, it's not magic at all. It uses
fq_codel to shape traffic like they reference on their website and it does
Not target certain streams or know that something needs more bandwidth.
Almost all video had variable bitrate now so if you have 10 meg plan and
you're running 3 video streams, it should split them about equal to 3.33
mbps for each stream. If Netflix drops down to 2.5 mbps then there's a
little extra left over for the other streams. What doesn't change is that
the small flows that don't use much throughout will always go to the front
of the queue to make sure they get priority over the big flows.

Preseem classifies it as "mice flows" and "elephant flows"

I don't know of any video services that don't have variable bitrate. All
the ones I use have that: Netflix, YouTube, Hulu, etc.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 2:52 PM Richard Strittmatter  We just have failover OSPF connections between the routers.
>
> Core <-> preseem <-> access network
>
> +
>
> Core <-> access network  ( at a higher OSPF cost )
>
>
>
> Simple. If the preseem fails, it routes around it. We are currently
> building our second  preseem box to split the load ( because they only have
> 10GB interfaces )
>
>
>
> Richard Strittmatter
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Baird
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:46 PM
> *To:* AFMUG 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>
>
>
> A concern that I have with Preseam (or any other vendor like this) is that
> it requires me to put a single box (usually a Dell server) right in-line
> with all of my customer traffic.  All of a sudden, my entire customer
> network is reliant on a single Dell server.  I know that Procera and maybe
> some other vendors offered bypass modules for this type of thing, but what
> are Preseam customers doing?  Is this not a concern for you?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 2:40 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
> That’s what bothers me about Preseem, it sounds like it works by magic.
> Every time in the past I’ve bought into magical solutions, I’ve been burned.
>
>
>
> I don’t know how you decide between a Windows 10 Update, an Xbox game
> download, a Netflix stream that with variable video quality, and a live
> sports video stream that has a single stream rate and will buffer or skip
> if it doesn’t get 10 Mbps … unless you identify the application via either
> DPI or something equivalent.
>
>
>
> Apparently Preseem allocates the bandwidth based on how the flow acts?  I
> still don’t see how it can know that the software download can be deferred
> or slowed until off-peak, the Netflix stream can be squeezed to 2.5 Mbps,
> but the live sports stream needs a certain bitrate or it just won’t work.
>
>
>
> Of course there’s also a bigger problem.  If you talk to the kid trying to
> download the latest 50 gigabyte game and play it, that should get 100% of
> the bandwidth.  But we’re never going to solve that one, unless we give
> customers a portal where they can tweak the knobs themselves.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Darin
> Steffl
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>
>
>
> I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're
> cool and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on
> attention and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't
> tell where you have trouble in your network or individual customers like
> you can with preseem.
>
>
>
> We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so
> don't even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video,
> updates, etc because thats not what it is.
>
>
>
> It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys
> do all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out
> there and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a
> bad experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does
> your rate plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now
> max out their rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy
> gaming or slow web browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns,
> web browsing, gaming to "jump the queue" so to s

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Richard Strittmatter]

We just have failover OSPF connections between the routers.
Core <-> preseem <-> access network
+
Core <-> access network  ( at a higher OSPF cost )

Simple. If the preseem fails, it routes around it. We are currently building 
our second  preseem box to split the load ( because they only have 10GB 
interfaces )

Richard Strittmatter

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:46 PM
To: AFMUG 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

A concern that I have with Preseam (or any other vendor like this) is that it 
requires me to put a single box (usually a Dell server) right in-line with all 
of my customer traffic.  All of a sudden, my entire customer network is reliant 
on a single Dell server.  I know that Procera and maybe some other vendors 
offered bypass modules for this type of thing, but what are Preseam customers 
doing?  Is this not a concern for you?

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 2:40 PM Ken Hohhof 
mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:
That’s what bothers me about Preseem, it sounds like it works by magic.  Every 
time in the past I’ve bought into magical solutions, I’ve been burned.

I don’t know how you decide between a Windows 10 Update, an Xbox game download, 
a Netflix stream that with variable video quality, and a live sports video 
stream that has a single stream rate and will buffer or skip if it doesn’t get 
10 Mbps … unless you identify the application via either DPI or something 
equivalent.

Apparently Preseem allocates the bandwidth based on how the flow acts?  I still 
don’t see how it can know that the software download can be deferred or slowed 
until off-peak, the Netflix stream can be squeezed to 2.5 Mbps, but the live 
sports stream needs a certain bitrate or it just won’t work.

Of course there’s also a bigger problem.  If you talk to the kid trying to 
download the latest 50 gigabyte game and play it, that should get 100% of the 
bandwidth.  But we’re never going to solve that one, unless we give customers a 
portal where they can tweak the knobs themselves.


From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Darin Steffl
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're cool 
and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on attention 
and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't tell where 
you have trouble in your network or individual customers like you can with 
preseem.

We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so don't 
even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video, updates, 
etc because thats not what it is.

It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys do 
all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out there 
and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a bad 
experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does your rate 
plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now max out their 
rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy gaming or slow web 
browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns, web browsing, gaming to 
"jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like video and updates don't slow 
everything down.

It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was able to 
run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse without any 
lag or buffering whatsoever.

I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy campers.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett 
mailto:af...@ics-il.net> wrote:
Bufferbloat is over-hyped.

Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[Image removed by 
sender.]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[Image 
removed by 
sender.]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[Image
 removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[Image removed by 
sender.]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[Image 
removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[Image 
removed by sender.]


<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

From: "Ken Hohhof" mailto:af...@kwisp.com>>
To: "AnimalFarm Mi

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Josh Baird]

A concern that I have with Preseam (or any other vendor like this) is that
it requires me to put a single box (usually a Dell server) right in-line
with all of my customer traffic.  All of a sudden, my entire customer
network is reliant on a single Dell server.  I know that Procera and maybe
some other vendors offered bypass modules for this type of thing, but what
are Preseam customers doing?  Is this not a concern for you?

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 2:40 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> That’s what bothers me about Preseem, it sounds like it works by magic.
> Every time in the past I’ve bought into magical solutions, I’ve been burned.
>
>
>
> I don’t know how you decide between a Windows 10 Update, an Xbox game
> download, a Netflix stream that with variable video quality, and a live
> sports video stream that has a single stream rate and will buffer or skip
> if it doesn’t get 10 Mbps … unless you identify the application via either
> DPI or something equivalent.
>
>
>
> Apparently Preseem allocates the bandwidth based on how the flow acts?  I
> still don’t see how it can know that the software download can be deferred
> or slowed until off-peak, the Netflix stream can be squeezed to 2.5 Mbps,
> but the live sports stream needs a certain bitrate or it just won’t work.
>
>
>
> Of course there’s also a bigger problem.  If you talk to the kid trying to
> download the latest 50 gigabyte game and play it, that should get 100% of
> the bandwidth.  But we’re never going to solve that one, unless we give
> customers a portal where they can tweak the knobs themselves.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Darin
> Steffl
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>
>
>
> I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're
> cool and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on
> attention and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't
> tell where you have trouble in your network or individual customers like
> you can with preseem.
>
>
>
> We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so
> don't even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video,
> updates, etc because thats not what it is.
>
>
>
> It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys
> do all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out
> there and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a
> bad experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does
> your rate plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now
> max out their rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy
> gaming or slow web browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns,
> web browsing, gaming to "jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like
> video and updates don't slow everything down.
>
>
>
> It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was
> able to run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse
> without any lag or buffering whatsoever.
>
>
>
> I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy
> campers.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett 
> Bufferbloat is over-hyped.
>
> Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> [image: Image removed by sender.] <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[image:
> Image removed by sender.]
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[image:
> Image removed by sender.]
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[image:
> Image removed by sender.] <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> [image: Image removed by sender.] <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[image:
> Image removed by sender.]
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[image: Image
> removed by sender.] <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> [image: Image removed by sender.]
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[image: Image removed by
> sender.]
>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --
>
> *From: *"Ken Hohhof" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth manag

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ken Hohhof]

That’s what bothers me about Preseem, it sounds like it works by magic.  Every 
time in the past I’ve bought into magical solutions, I’ve been burned.

 

I don’t know how you decide between a Windows 10 Update, an Xbox game download, 
a Netflix stream that with variable video quality, and a live sports video 
stream that has a single stream rate and will buffer or skip if it doesn’t get 
10 Mbps … unless you identify the application via either DPI or something 
equivalent.

 

Apparently Preseem allocates the bandwidth based on how the flow acts?  I still 
don’t see how it can know that the software download can be deferred or slowed 
until off-peak, the Netflix stream can be squeezed to 2.5 Mbps, but the live 
sports stream needs a certain bitrate or it just won’t work.

 

Of course there’s also a bigger problem.  If you talk to the kid trying to 
download the latest 50 gigabyte game and play it, that should get 100% of the 
bandwidth.  But we’re never going to solve that one, unless we give customers a 
portal where they can tweak the knobs themselves.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Darin Steffl

 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're cool 
and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on attention 
and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't tell where 
you have trouble in your network or individual customers like you can with 
preseem. 

 

We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so don't 
even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video, updates, 
etc because thats not what it is. 

 

It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys do 
all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out there 
and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a bad 
experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does your rate 
plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now max out their 
rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy gaming or slow web 
browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns, web browsing, gaming to 
"jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like video and updates don't slow 
everything down. 

 

It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was able to 
run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse without any 
lag or buffering whatsoever. 

 

I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy campers. 

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett mailto:af...@ics-il.net>  wrote:

Bufferbloat is over-hyped.

Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html

 



-
Mike Hammett
 <http://www.ics-il.com/> Intelligent Computing Solutions
 <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>  
<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>  
<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> 
 <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> Midwest Internet Exchange
 <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>  
<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> 
 <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> The Brothers WISP
 <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>  
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> 





  _  


From: "Ken Hohhof" mailto:af...@kwisp.com> >
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from?

 

It can’t be from rate queues.  The highest we set our Mikrotik queues is around 
40 packets before they start dropping packets.  We have pushed the queue depth 
higher to signal congestion to TCP Vegas style implementations.  But at 10 Mbps 
that’s still only ~40 milliseconds of delay.  I don’t think that qualifies as 
bufferbloat.

 

Where in a typical WISP network are these huge buffers?  Are you talking about 
APs at 100% of capacity?  I admit I don’t know how much data an AP will buffer 
waiting for a timeslot to send the data over the air.  But the only time I see 
latencies soar toward 1 second under load is on my one hated WiMAX basestation, 
and I think that may be due to excessive HARQ retries or something.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Dev
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:41 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I looked at a

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ken Hohhof]

Lucy and Ethel demonstrate bufferbloat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnbNcQlzV-4

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 12:33 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

Bufferbloat is over-hyped.

Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html

 



-
Mike Hammett
 <http://www.ics-il.com/> Intelligent Computing Solutions
 <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>  
<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>  
<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> 
 <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> Midwest Internet Exchange
 <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>  
<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> 
 <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> The Brothers WISP
 <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>  
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> 




  _  

From: "Ken Hohhof" mailto:af...@kwisp.com> >
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from?

 

It can’t be from rate queues.  The highest we set our Mikrotik queues is around 
40 packets before they start dropping packets.  We have pushed the queue depth 
higher to signal congestion to TCP Vegas style implementations.  But at 10 Mbps 
that’s still only ~40 milliseconds of delay.  I don’t think that qualifies as 
bufferbloat.

 

Where in a typical WISP network are these huge buffers?  Are you talking about 
APs at 100% of capacity?  I admit I don’t know how much data an AP will buffer 
waiting for a timeslot to send the data over the air.  But the only time I see 
latencies soar toward 1 second under load is on my one hated WiMAX basestation, 
and I think that may be due to excessive HARQ retries or something.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Dev
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:41 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I looked at a couple variations of buffer bloat management, and have decided to 
build my own and maybe just open source the thing for “people who feel 50K 
seems excessive” and just need some basic functionality on a vanilla Linux box. 
The open source tech is out there, it’s just tying it all together in some sane 
way. I hope others will open source what they’re working on too, that’s what 
the community is about. I feel like the community is moving away from including 
the little guys these days.

 


 <http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Darin Steffl]

I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're
cool and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on
attention and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't
tell where you have trouble in your network or individual customers like
you can with preseem.

We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so
don't even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video,
updates, etc because thats not what it is.

It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys
do all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out
there and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a
bad experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does
your rate plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now
max out their rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy
gaming or slow web browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns,
web browsing, gaming to "jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like
video and updates don't slow everything down.

It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was able
to run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse
without any lag or buffering whatsoever.

I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy
campers.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett  Bufferbloat is over-hyped.
>
> Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html
>
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> ------
> *From: *"Ken Hohhof" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>
> Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from?
>
>
>
> It can’t be from rate queues.  The highest we set our Mikrotik queues is
> around 40 packets before they start dropping packets.  We have pushed the
> queue depth higher to signal congestion to TCP Vegas style
> implementations.  But at 10 Mbps that’s still only ~40 milliseconds of
> delay.  I don’t think that qualifies as bufferbloat.
>
>
>
> Where in a typical WISP network are these huge buffers?  Are you talking
> about APs at 100% of capacity?  I admit I don’t know how much data an AP
> will buffer waiting for a timeslot to send the data over the air.  But the
> only time I see latencies soar toward 1 second under load is on my one
> hated WiMAX basestation, and I think that may be due to excessive HARQ
> retries or something.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Dev
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:41 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>
>
>
> I looked at a couple variations of buffer bloat management, and have
> decided to build my own and maybe just open source the thing for “people
> who feel 50K seems excessive” and just need some basic functionality on a
> vanilla Linux box. The open source tech is out there, it’s just tying it
> all together in some sane way. I hope others will open source what they’re
> working on too, that’s what the community is about. I feel like the
> community is moving away from including the little guys these days.
>
>
>
>
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
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> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Mike Hammett]

Bufferbloat is over-hyped. 

Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html 





- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Ken Hohhof"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions 



Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from? 

It can’t be from rate queues. The highest we set our Mikrotik queues is around 
40 packets before they start dropping packets. We have pushed the queue depth 
higher to signal congestion to TCP Vegas style implementations. But at 10 Mbps 
that’s still only ~40 milliseconds of delay. I don’t think that qualifies as 
bufferbloat. 

Where in a typical WISP network are these huge buffers? Are you talking about 
APs at 100% of capacity? I admit I don’t know how much data an AP will buffer 
waiting for a timeslot to send the data over the air. But the only time I see 
latencies soar toward 1 second under load is on my one hated WiMAX basestation, 
and I think that may be due to excessive HARQ retries or something. 




From: AF  On Behalf Of Dev 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:41 AM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions 

I looked at a couple variations of buffer bloat management, and have decided to 
build my own and maybe just open source the thing for “people who feel 50K 
seems excessive” and just need some basic functionality on a vanilla Linux box. 
The open source tech is out there, it’s just tying it all together in some sane 
way. I hope others will open source what they’re working on too, that’s what 
the community is about. I feel like the community is moving away from including 
the little guys these days. 











http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 


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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ken Hohhof]

Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from?

 

It can’t be from rate queues.  The highest we set our Mikrotik queues is around 
40 packets before they start dropping packets.  We have pushed the queue depth 
higher to signal congestion to TCP Vegas style implementations.  But at 10 Mbps 
that’s still only ~40 milliseconds of delay.  I don’t think that qualifies as 
bufferbloat.

 

Where in a typical WISP network are these huge buffers?  Are you talking about 
APs at 100% of capacity?  I admit I don’t know how much data an AP will buffer 
waiting for a timeslot to send the data over the air.  But the only time I see 
latencies soar toward 1 second under load is on my one hated WiMAX basestation, 
and I think that may be due to excessive HARQ retries or something.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Dev
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:41 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I looked at a couple variations of buffer bloat management, and have decided to 
build my own and maybe just open source the thing for “people who feel 50K 
seems excessive” and just need some basic functionality on a vanilla Linux box. 
The open source tech is out there, it’s just tying it all together in some sane 
way. I hope others will open source what they’re working on too, that’s what 
the community is about. I feel like the community is moving away from including 
the little guys these days.

 


 <http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[SmarterBroadband]

Regarding Procera.  

 

I am looking for a Procera Expert / Consultant to help get our Procera boxes 
doing great things for us.   

 

Does anyone know of someone?

 

Thanks

 

Adam

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 6:51 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

Yes, if you’ve looked at all three, that would be fantastic.  On list, or off 
list to khohhof “at” kwom.com.

 

If you loved Procera, why did you switch?

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Adair Winter
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 8:28 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly happy.

About to do a preseem demo. 

I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now. 

 

Adair 

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com>  wrote:

Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and then 
Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have Bequant, which 
bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m looking for.

 

Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or off list?  
I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem like the latest 
hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera is still selling to 
the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.  I just got off a 
conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded reasonably good, no red 
flags.

 

I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it would be 
good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody can have a good 
Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in the real world. 

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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Dev]

I looked at a couple variations of buffer bloat management, and have decided to 
build my own and maybe just open source the thing for “people who feel 50K 
seems excessive” and just need some basic functionality on a vanilla Linux box. 
The open source tech is out there, it’s just tying it all together in some sane 
way. I hope others will open source what they’re working on too, that’s what 
the community is about. I feel like the community is moving away from including 
the little guys these days.

>> 
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
>> -- 
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Adair Winter]

They have "procera virtual" on your own hardware. We tried it but it had
some major issues that drove us to switch away. not sure if that's other
peoples experience or not


On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:56 AM Jason McKemie <
j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:

> Doesn't sonar still have the ability to add Procera per-user on
> off-the-shelf Dell hardware if you're using their system? I was considering
> going that route.
>
> On Tuesday, November 13, 2018, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
>> I think with Procera you pay for the box and maintenance, while with
>> Saisei you pay monthly per active user (and buy a Dell server).  You’d have
>> to do some math to figure out which is cheaper.  I think the commitment
>> might also be 1 year vs. 3 years, but maybe that’s negotiable.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Kurt Fankhauser
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:19 AM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>>
>>
>>
>> I too have a Procera box currently (the small one that only does 1gig
>> aggregate) and am at the point of needing to upgrade that and Powercode is
>> my billing server and they are saying that the Saisei box is a lot cheaper
>> than Procera since its just Ubuntu running on your own hardware. They said
>> most of their customers that have been running Proceras are pretty much all
>> switching to Saisei. I am trying to figure out what to do myself. My
>> Procera annual license renewal comes up in December.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:06 PM Adair Winter <
>> ada...@amarillowireless.net> wrote:
>>
>> We outgrew the box is why we switched. We tried to go with procera
>> virtual which was procera on your own (to their spec) box but it was
>> riddled with problems. A appliance the next size up with $70k and we were
>> not ready to drop that kind of money on it. although I kinda wish we would
>> have. Saisei has had weird UDP traffic flow issues. We've had Voip and VPN
>> issues where we've had to bypass customers around the box until we
>> rebooted. Thought it was fixed but it's returned again.
>>
>> Gonna give pressem a try and see what happens. If it doesn't work not
>> sure what we will do. Only real option is mikrotik queues. I guess.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:53 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>>
>> The biggest thing we are looking for is being able to keep customer
>> experience high even while they're using their plan. Our problem now is
>> someone will be using 50Mb/s sustained on the down, and their pings go high
>> and experience is worse than it should be. Trying to get buffer bloat down,
>> being able to prioritize different traffic behind others is nice as well.
>> We will see what happens.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:47 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>>
>> Also testing out Preseem. Signed up at wispa, just got the boxes in the
>> network and can't wait to see what it can do.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:29 PM Adair Winter 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly
>> happy.
>>
>> About to do a preseem demo.
>>
>> I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now.
>>
>>
>>
>> Adair
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof >
>> Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and then
>> Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have Bequant,
>> which bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m
>> looking for.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or off
>> list?  I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem like
>> the latest hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera is
>> still selling to the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.
>> I just got off a conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded
>> reasonably good, no red flags.
>>
>>
>>
>> I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it
>> would be good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody can
>> have a good Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in
>> the real world.
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http:

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Darren Shea]

That makes sense – when we started using ours a couple of years ago, I was 
thinking they would have some turnkey options we could later modify as needed. 
Nope, that’s not how they do things. They basically sell you the box and a 
support contract, then they teach a person at the company how to design and 
implement things like bandwidth plans and shaping rules, and how to interface 
with a PSM if that’s the direction you want to go. There’s a lot of 
documentation, but a fair amount of it is needlessly arcane, and there just 
aren’t any “best practices” configuration ideas they can share. I can’t imagine 
that’s an efficient way to do things for a smaller WISP.

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Darin Steffl
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:43 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

Everything I've heard is procera is not supporting small ISP's like wisp's any 
longer. They are focusing on the 100k+ wisp's. 

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 11:20 AM Kurt Fankhauser  
wrote:

We outgrew the box is why we switched. We tried to go with procera virtual 
which was procera on your own (to their spec) box but it was riddled with 
problems. A appliance the next size up with $70k and we were not ready to drop 
that kind of money on it. although I kinda wish we would have. Saisei has had 
weird UDP traffic flow issues. We've had Voip and VPN issues where we've had to 
bypass customers around the box until we rebooted. Thought it was fixed but 
it's returned again.

Gonna give pressem a try and see what happens. If it doesn't work not sure what 
we will do. Only real option is mikrotik queues. I guess.

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:53 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

The biggest thing we are looking for is being able to keep customer experience 
high even while they're using their plan. Our problem now is someone will be 
using 50Mb/s sustained on the down, and their pings go high and experience is 
worse than it should be. Trying to get buffer bloat down, being able to 
prioritize different traffic behind others is nice as well. We will see what 
happens. 

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:47 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

Also testing out Preseem. Signed up at wispa, just got the boxes in the network 
and can't wait to see what it can do.

 

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:29 PM Adair Winter  
wrote:

Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly happy.

About to do a preseem demo. 

I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now. 

 

Adair 

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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-- 

Adair Winter
VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
C: 806.231.7180
 <http://www.amarillowireless.net/> http://www.amarillowireless.net 
<http://www.amarillowireless.net> 


 

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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Jason McKemie]

Doesn't sonar still have the ability to add Procera per-user on
off-the-shelf Dell hardware if you're using their system? I was considering
going that route.

On Tuesday, November 13, 2018, Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> I think with Procera you pay for the box and maintenance, while with
> Saisei you pay monthly per active user (and buy a Dell server).  You’d have
> to do some math to figure out which is cheaper.  I think the commitment
> might also be 1 year vs. 3 years, but maybe that’s negotiable.
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Kurt Fankhauser
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:19 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>
>
>
> I too have a Procera box currently (the small one that only does 1gig
> aggregate) and am at the point of needing to upgrade that and Powercode is
> my billing server and they are saying that the Saisei box is a lot cheaper
> than Procera since its just Ubuntu running on your own hardware. They said
> most of their customers that have been running Proceras are pretty much all
> switching to Saisei. I am trying to figure out what to do myself. My
> Procera annual license renewal comes up in December.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:06 PM Adair Winter 
> wrote:
>
> We outgrew the box is why we switched. We tried to go with procera virtual
> which was procera on your own (to their spec) box but it was riddled with
> problems. A appliance the next size up with $70k and we were not ready to
> drop that kind of money on it. although I kinda wish we would have. Saisei
> has had weird UDP traffic flow issues. We've had Voip and VPN issues where
> we've had to bypass customers around the box until we rebooted. Thought it
> was fixed but it's returned again.
>
> Gonna give pressem a try and see what happens. If it doesn't work not sure
> what we will do. Only real option is mikrotik queues. I guess.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:53 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>
> The biggest thing we are looking for is being able to keep customer
> experience high even while they're using their plan. Our problem now is
> someone will be using 50Mb/s sustained on the down, and their pings go high
> and experience is worse than it should be. Trying to get buffer bloat down,
> being able to prioritize different traffic behind others is nice as well.
> We will see what happens.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:47 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>
> Also testing out Preseem. Signed up at wispa, just got the boxes in the
> network and can't wait to see what it can do.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:29 PM Adair Winter 
> wrote:
>
> Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly
> happy.
>
> About to do a preseem demo.
>
> I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now.
>
>
>
> Adair
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof 
> Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and then
> Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have Bequant,
> which bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m
> looking for.
>
>
>
> Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or off
> list?  I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem like
> the latest hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera is
> still selling to the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.
> I just got off a conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded
> reasonably good, no red flags.
>
>
>
> I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it would
> be good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody can have a
> good Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in the real
> world.
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Adair Winter
> VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
> Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
> C: 806.231.7180
> http://www.amarillowireless.net
> [image: Image removed by sender.] <http://www.amarillowireless.net>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ken Hohhof]

I think with Procera you pay for the box and maintenance, while with Saisei you 
pay monthly per active user (and buy a Dell server).  You’d have to do some 
math to figure out which is cheaper.  I think the commitment might also be 1 
year vs. 3 years, but maybe that’s negotiable.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:19 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I too have a Procera box currently (the small one that only does 1gig 
aggregate) and am at the point of needing to upgrade that and Powercode is my 
billing server and they are saying that the Saisei box is a lot cheaper than 
Procera since its just Ubuntu running on your own hardware. They said most of 
their customers that have been running Proceras are pretty much all switching 
to Saisei. I am trying to figure out what to do myself. My Procera annual 
license renewal comes up in December.

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:06 PM Adair Winter mailto:ada...@amarillowireless.net> > wrote:

We outgrew the box is why we switched. We tried to go with procera virtual 
which was procera on your own (to their spec) box but it was riddled with 
problems. A appliance the next size up with $70k and we were not ready to drop 
that kind of money on it. although I kinda wish we would have. Saisei has had 
weird UDP traffic flow issues. We've had Voip and VPN issues where we've had to 
bypass customers around the box until we rebooted. Thought it was fixed but 
it's returned again.

Gonna give pressem a try and see what happens. If it doesn't work not sure what 
we will do. Only real option is mikrotik queues. I guess.

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:53 PM Ryan Ray mailto:ryan...@gmail.com> > wrote:

The biggest thing we are looking for is being able to keep customer experience 
high even while they're using their plan. Our problem now is someone will be 
using 50Mb/s sustained on the down, and their pings go high and experience is 
worse than it should be. Trying to get buffer bloat down, being able to 
prioritize different traffic behind others is nice as well. We will see what 
happens. 

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:47 PM Ryan Ray mailto:ryan...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Also testing out Preseem. Signed up at wispa, just got the boxes in the network 
and can't wait to see what it can do.

 

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:29 PM Adair Winter mailto:ada...@amarillowireless.net> > wrote:

Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly happy.

About to do a preseem demo. 

I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now. 

 

Adair 

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com>  wrote:

Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and then 
Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have Bequant, which 
bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m looking for.

 

Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or off list?  
I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem like the latest 
hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera is still selling to 
the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.  I just got off a 
conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded reasonably good, no red 
flags.

 

I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it would be 
good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody can have a good 
Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in the real world. 

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-- 

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VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
C: 806.231.7180
 <http://www.amarillowireless.net/> http://www.amarillowireless.net 
<http://www.amarillowireless.net> 


 

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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Darin Steffl]

Everything I've heard is procera is not supporting small ISP's like wisp's
any longer. They are focusing on the 100k+ wisp's.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 11:20 AM Kurt Fankhauser  I too have a Procera box currently (the small one that only does 1gig
> aggregate) and am at the point of needing to upgrade that and Powercode is
> my billing server and they are saying that the Saisei box is a lot cheaper
> than Procera since its just Ubuntu running on your own hardware. They said
> most of their customers that have been running Proceras are pretty much all
> switching to Saisei. I am trying to figure out what to do myself. My
> Procera annual license renewal comes up in December.
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:06 PM Adair Winter 
> wrote:
>
>> We outgrew the box is why we switched. We tried to go with procera
>> virtual which was procera on your own (to their spec) box but it was
>> riddled with problems. A appliance the next size up with $70k and we were
>> not ready to drop that kind of money on it. although I kinda wish we would
>> have. Saisei has had weird UDP traffic flow issues. We've had Voip and VPN
>> issues where we've had to bypass customers around the box until we
>> rebooted. Thought it was fixed but it's returned again.
>> Gonna give pressem a try and see what happens. If it doesn't work not
>> sure what we will do. Only real option is mikrotik queues. I guess.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:53 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>>
>>> The biggest thing we are looking for is being able to keep customer
>>> experience high even while they're using their plan. Our problem now is
>>> someone will be using 50Mb/s sustained on the down, and their pings go high
>>> and experience is worse than it should be. Trying to get buffer bloat down,
>>> being able to prioritize different traffic behind others is nice as well.
>>> We will see what happens.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:47 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>>>
 Also testing out Preseem. Signed up at wispa, just got the boxes in the
 network and can't wait to see what it can do.


 On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:29 PM Adair Winter <
 ada...@amarillowireless.net> wrote:

> Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not
> overly happy.
> About to do a preseem demo.
> I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now.
>
> Adair
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof 
>> Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and
>> then Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have 
>> Bequant,
>> which bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m
>> looking for.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or
>> off list?  I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem
>> like the latest hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera 
>> is
>> still selling to the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.
>> I just got off a conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded
>> reasonably good, no red flags.
>>
>>
>>
>> I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it
>> would be good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody 
>> can
>> have a good Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in
>> the real world.
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
 --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Adair Winter
>> VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
>> Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
>> C: 806.231.7180
>> http://www.amarillowireless.net
>> 
>>
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Kurt Fankhauser]

I too have a Procera box currently (the small one that only does 1gig
aggregate) and am at the point of needing to upgrade that and Powercode is
my billing server and they are saying that the Saisei box is a lot cheaper
than Procera since its just Ubuntu running on your own hardware. They said
most of their customers that have been running Proceras are pretty much all
switching to Saisei. I am trying to figure out what to do myself. My
Procera annual license renewal comes up in December.

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:06 PM Adair Winter 
wrote:

> We outgrew the box is why we switched. We tried to go with procera virtual
> which was procera on your own (to their spec) box but it was riddled with
> problems. A appliance the next size up with $70k and we were not ready to
> drop that kind of money on it. although I kinda wish we would have. Saisei
> has had weird UDP traffic flow issues. We've had Voip and VPN issues where
> we've had to bypass customers around the box until we rebooted. Thought it
> was fixed but it's returned again.
> Gonna give pressem a try and see what happens. If it doesn't work not sure
> what we will do. Only real option is mikrotik queues. I guess.
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:53 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>
>> The biggest thing we are looking for is being able to keep customer
>> experience high even while they're using their plan. Our problem now is
>> someone will be using 50Mb/s sustained on the down, and their pings go high
>> and experience is worse than it should be. Trying to get buffer bloat down,
>> being able to prioritize different traffic behind others is nice as well.
>> We will see what happens.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:47 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>>
>>> Also testing out Preseem. Signed up at wispa, just got the boxes in the
>>> network and can't wait to see what it can do.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:29 PM Adair Winter <
>>> ada...@amarillowireless.net> wrote:
>>>
 Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly
 happy.
 About to do a preseem demo.
 I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now.

 Adair

 On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof >>>
> Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and
> then Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have 
> Bequant,
> which bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m
> looking for.
>
>
>
> Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or
> off list?  I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem
> like the latest hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera 
> is
> still selling to the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.
> I just got off a conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded
> reasonably good, no red flags.
>
>
>
> I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it
> would be good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody can
> have a good Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in
> the real world.
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
 --
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

>>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Adair Winter
> VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
> Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
> C: 806.231.7180
> http://www.amarillowireless.net
> 
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Adair Winter]

We outgrew the box is why we switched. We tried to go with procera virtual
which was procera on your own (to their spec) box but it was riddled with
problems. A appliance the next size up with $70k and we were not ready to
drop that kind of money on it. although I kinda wish we would have. Saisei
has had weird UDP traffic flow issues. We've had Voip and VPN issues where
we've had to bypass customers around the box until we rebooted. Thought it
was fixed but it's returned again.
Gonna give pressem a try and see what happens. If it doesn't work not sure
what we will do. Only real option is mikrotik queues. I guess.

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:53 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

> The biggest thing we are looking for is being able to keep customer
> experience high even while they're using their plan. Our problem now is
> someone will be using 50Mb/s sustained on the down, and their pings go high
> and experience is worse than it should be. Trying to get buffer bloat down,
> being able to prioritize different traffic behind others is nice as well.
> We will see what happens.
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:47 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>
>> Also testing out Preseem. Signed up at wispa, just got the boxes in the
>> network and can't wait to see what it can do.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:29 PM Adair Winter 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly
>>> happy.
>>> About to do a preseem demo.
>>> I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now.
>>>
>>> Adair
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof >>
 Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and
 then Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have Bequant,
 which bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m
 looking for.



 Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or
 off list?  I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem
 like the latest hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera is
 still selling to the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.
 I just got off a conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded
 reasonably good, no red flags.



 I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it
 would be good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody can
 have a good Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in
 the real world.
 --
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 

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VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
C: 806.231.7180
http://www.amarillowireless.net

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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ryan Ray]

The biggest thing we are looking for is being able to keep customer
experience high even while they're using their plan. Our problem now is
someone will be using 50Mb/s sustained on the down, and their pings go high
and experience is worse than it should be. Trying to get buffer bloat down,
being able to prioritize different traffic behind others is nice as well.
We will see what happens.

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:47 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

> Also testing out Preseem. Signed up at wispa, just got the boxes in the
> network and can't wait to see what it can do.
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:29 PM Adair Winter 
> wrote:
>
>> Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly
>> happy.
>> About to do a preseem demo.
>> I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now.
>>
>> Adair
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof >
>>> Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and then
>>> Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have Bequant,
>>> which bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m
>>> looking for.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or off
>>> list?  I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem like
>>> the latest hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera is
>>> still selling to the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.
>>> I just got off a conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded
>>> reasonably good, no red flags.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it
>>> would be good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody can
>>> have a good Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in
>>> the real world.
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
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>>
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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ken Hohhof]

Yes, if you’ve looked at all three, that would be fantastic.  On list, or off 
list to khohhof “at” kwom.com.

 

If you loved Procera, why did you switch?

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adair Winter
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 8:28 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly happy.

About to do a preseem demo. 

I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now. 

 

Adair 

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com>  wrote:

Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and then 
Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have Bequant, which 
bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m looking for.

 

Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or off list?  
I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem like the latest 
hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera is still selling to 
the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.  I just got off a 
conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded reasonably good, no red 
flags.

 

I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it would be 
good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody can have a good 
Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in the real world. 

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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ryan Ray]

Also testing out Preseem. Signed up at wispa, just got the boxes in the
network and can't wait to see what it can do.


On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:29 PM Adair Winter 
wrote:

> Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly
> happy.
> About to do a preseem demo.
> I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now.
>
> Adair
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof 
>> Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and then
>> Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have Bequant,
>> which bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m
>> looking for.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or off
>> list?  I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem like
>> the latest hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera is
>> still selling to the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.
>> I just got off a conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded
>> reasonably good, no red flags.
>>
>>
>>
>> I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it
>> would be good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody can
>> have a good Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in
>> the real world.
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Adair Winter]

Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly
happy.
About to do a preseem demo.
I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now.

Adair

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof  Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and then
> Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have Bequant,
> which bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m
> looking for.
>
>
>
> Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or off
> list?  I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem like
> the latest hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera is
> still selling to the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.
> I just got off a conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded
> reasonably good, no red flags.
>
>
>
> I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it would
> be good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody can have a
> good Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in the real
> world.
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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