Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Adam Moffett]

Lots of good points in this thread.

Blades are so expensive they don't look cost effective until you're 
weighing them against building an addition on the server room.  You gain 
management features though, and you're generally getting the "carrier 
grade" server by default.  I don't think anybody makes a crummy blade 
system.


I have been tempted by the 12V Mini-boxes in the past, but never did 
it.  A quad-core box for a few hundred bucks could give you it's own 
kind of resiliency because it's painless to keep spares.


Dell and HP are the go-to guys for new or used.  Supermicro can be a 
great value, but be careful because they do sell both high and low end 
equipment.  Make sure the Supermicro you buy is cheap because it's a 
good deal and not because it's just cheap.


-Adam


On 9/25/2020 9:08 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable. Last a long time.
Thinking blade servers.
Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses.
Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper 
V, all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.

But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.

-- 
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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Dave]

you could do like I did with our first VM host with several vms mirror 
it on a  blade server. I can take down a drive so long as I have blade 
up server keeps going while we do maint on host.


very kewl stuff


On 9/26/2020 2:50 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Thanks everyone.
*From:* Steven Kenney
*Sent:* Saturday, September 26, 2020 1:22 PM
*To:* af
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] servers
You can get used off lease servers for pennies on the dollar.  You can 
get a 2 socket 12 core 24 thread Xeon machine with 128 Gb of ram and 
SAS drives for under $800 CDN.  All from NOC environments so if you 
put them back into a good environment they will run for years.
Don't bother with blades.  You won't need that until you get really 
big.   Go Dell, HP or Supermicro.  I've used them all for many years.  
They are built well and last long.  Supermicro is the cheapest by far 
but surprisingly well built and supported.

logo <https://www.wavedirect.net/>
<https://www.facebook.com/ruralhighspeed> 
<https://www.instagram.com/wave.direct/> 
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/wavedirect-telecommunication/> 
<https://twitter.com/wavedirect1> 
<https://www.youtube.com/user/WaveDirect>

*STEVEN KENNEY *
DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL CONNECTIVITY & CONTINUITY A: 158 Erie St. N | 
Leamington ON

E: st...@wavedirect.org | P: 519-737-9283
W: www.wavedirect.net


*From: *"chuck" 
*To: *"af" 
*Sent: *Friday, September 25, 2020 9:08:50 PM
*Subject: *[AFMUG] servers
I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time.
Thinking blade servers.
Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP. Other things an ISP uses.
Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc. I realize VM and Hyper 
V, all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.

But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.

--
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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Dave]

I still like the super micros for heavy lifting like email but 
everything else go into a VM.


Dell we use for Our VMhosts. I did recently install an HP for preseem 
and love it got a 10G transparent bridge moving thru it.



On 9/26/2020 7:43 AM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
Anything DC is going to severely limit your choices. You need almost 
nothing for DNS and DHCP but email...useful email takes a decent 
machine nowadays for all the spam checking and header checks. I gave 
up doing email ages ago and went to gmail. Best decision I ever made. 
No need to spark a war, just a sideline comment.


As for reliability, Either Dell or HP I think are the best. Haven't 
done Dell in a while but when I did I was happy with them.  They both 
make blade servers. I have been researching blade servers recently for 
a new project. HP has an 8 slot C3000 and a 16 slot C7000. Dell has 
the M1000e. The HP has a storage blade that holds 16 drives and can 
serve as DAS, ISCSI, fiber channel and about any other disk access you 
like. I think you can put 8 of those in. They both have chassis 
management so you can manage the blades from a central admin console 
on a hardware level. Dell is more tightly integrated with VMWare than 
HP from what I could tell but I don't know what that integration buys you.


Both are available on the refurb market.
This next bit may be incorrect but I don't think so from what I could 
tell:
No matter if you buy refurb or brand new blades appear to come out a 
generation behind their rack mounted brothers. For instance in HP I 
think the latest you can get in a blade is a Gen9 server while current 
rack units and desktop servers are at Gen 10. Gen 10 has a better iLO5 
(Integrated Lights Out) than Gen 8 and 9 iLO4. I don't believe you can 
upgrade that iLO separately as it is built into the MB. Dell used to 
have their DRAC which does the same thing and it plugged into a 
special slot so was independant of the MB and could be upgraded but I 
don't know what they have now. I assume HP moved to the on MB way to 
save money so I am assuming they have both moved that way.


On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 8:09 PM > wrote:


I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long
time.
Thinking blade servers.
Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP
uses.
Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and
Hyper V, all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.
-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



--
Lewis Bergman
325-439-0533 Cell

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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Lewis Bergman]

Thanks for all that info. Can you give me insight into virtualization? What
do you use for tha? I know I probably should use it but I haven't. The
licensing seems really confusing for VM and not sure there are any good
alternatives.

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 10:30 AM Ryan McAfee  wrote:

> That's the kind of situation where blades can make sense.
> For general use, unless you have crazy space requirements, up until about
> 8-12 servers, at least, I wouldn't consider them. At a pay-per-U
> datacenter, that could make sense.
>
> Yes, we've used NetApp SANs for NFS/iSCSI. I've also seen good results
> with many other brands of storage enclosure. Even QNAP has a decent storage
> system at reasonable prices.
>
> Blade systems CAN simplify cabling (unless you still need a ton of
> uplinks).
> The HP c7000 system was pretty easy to manage, but we had issues with the
> management cards in both chassis. Over time ping to the OAs would get
> longer and longer until they quit responding and the onboard administrators
> had to be reset. We had the issue with C7000 acquired in 2008 and another
> in 2010. HP, of course, said "We've never seen this before". We just
> accepted it as normal, eventually, and did a failover of the OAs, primary
> to secondary, and rebooted them about once a month. That was non-disruptive
> to the workload.
> HP's converged networking makes a lot more sense to me than Cisco
> UCS's (acquired 2013).
>
> Overall, the blade system increased the price, left us constrained on
> things like memory slots and ability to put in PCI cards and local disks.
>
> Ryan
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 8:44 AM  wrote:
>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>1. Re: servers (Lewis Bergman)
>>2. Re: servers (Erich Kaiser)
>>3. Re: servers (Chuck McCown)
>>
>>
>> ----------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2020 08:05:00 -0500
>> From: Lewis Bergman 
>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] servers
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> cad2cnaquan98ny_8dkh2yfzxezmv_agdwxdphlwqurcby1l...@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> I am really glad I read your post. I have always done it the way you
>> describe but thought I would try blades this time. We do have to put this
>> project in Equinix which means power requirements really matter a lot and
>> it costs a decent amount to add more. Do you just have a big iSCSI for
>> storage?
>>
>> By the way Chuck, I did not mention the HP DL20. It is a shallow 1U that
>> could be mounted on a single post rack. Like any single post 1U, it could
>> really use a shelf to add support to the back. They do fit anywhere. Not
>> the fastest machines ever but more than enough to do what you want. But so
>> are Atoms, Pi's and a tone of other tiny form factors. Even the NUC would
>> bang out what you have for requirements.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 8:59 PM Ryan McAfee  wrote:
>>
>> > Blade systems can be awesome, but they add a TON of complexity over
>> > regular pizza-box servers.
>> > Unless you need the hardware density of blades, I'd much rather have a
>> > stack of HP DL360/DL380 or the Dell R740xd type servers (can't remember
>> the
>> > 1U equivalent on the Dell side).
>> >
>> > I've managed HP blade chassis (2 different generations) and Cisco UCS
>> > blades in a VMWare environment. I've really not cared for either types.
>> >
>> > The 1U/2U servers are much easier to work on, have easy expansion slots,
>> > places to mount disk bays, etc...
>> > Plus you can get a 2-generation old server for a couple hundred dollars
>> on
>> > ebay and other vendors.
>> >
>> > At my $dayjob, we just put in a Dell R740xd2 stack of Hyper-V servers.
>> The
>> > hardware is pretty awesome.
>> > We didn't even consider blades this time.
>> >
>> > Ryan
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 8:48 PM  wrote:
>> >
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> Message: 1
>> >> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 19:08:50 -0600
>> >> From: 
>> >> To: 
>> >> Subject: [AFMUG] servers
>> >> Message-ID: <760C91BEE8344A249EB9F7291415D03B@MCCOWNTECH.local>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >>
>> >> I 

Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Mike Hammett]

I just bought a handful of Dell R630s with DC power supplies. Cost effective. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 8:08:50 PM 
Subject: [AFMUG] servers 




I need to put in some servers. I want to go durable. Last a long time. 
Thinking blade servers. 
Email, DNS etc, Perhaps in the future DHCP. Other things an ISP uses. 

Suggestions? I like the idea of hot swap etc. I realize VM and Hyper V, all 
kinds of virtualization makes life easy. 
But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability. 

Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it. 
-- 
AF mailing list 
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[chuck]

Thanks everyone.  

From: Steven Kenney 
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 1:22 PM
To: af 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] servers

You can get used off lease servers for pennies on the dollar.  You can get a 2 
socket 12 core 24 thread Xeon machine with 128 Gb of ram and SAS drives for 
under $800 CDN.  All from NOC environments so if you put them back into a good 
environment they will run for years.  

Don't bother with blades.  You won't need that until you get really big.   Go 
Dell, HP or Supermicro.  I've used them all for many years.  They are built 
well and last long.  Supermicro is the cheapest by far but surprisingly well 
built and supported.  

   
STEVEN KENNEY 

  DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL CONNECTIVITY & CONTINUITY 
  A: 158 Erie St. N | Leamington ON 

  E: st...@wavedirect.org | P: 519-737-9283

  W: www.wavedirect.net
 





From: "chuck" 
To: "af" 
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 9:08:50 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] servers


I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time.  
Thinking blade servers.
Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses.  

Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper V, all 
kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability. 

Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.  

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Steven Kenney]

You can get used off lease servers for pennies on the dollar. You can get a 2 
socket 12 core 24 thread Xeon machine with 128 Gb of ram and SAS drives for 
under $800 CDN. All from NOC environments so if you put them back into a good 
environment they will run for years. 

Don't bother with blades. You won't need that until you get really big. Go 
Dell, HP or Supermicro. I've used them all for many years. They are built well 
and last long. Supermicro is the cheapest by far but surprisingly well built 
and supported. 

[ https://www.wavedirect.net/ |] 
[ https://www.facebook.com/ruralhighspeed ] [ 
https://www.instagram.com/wave.direct/ ] [ 
https://www.linkedin.com/company/wavedirect-telecommunication/ ] [ 
https://twitter.com/wavedirect1 ] [ https://www.youtube.com/user/WaveDirect ] 
STEVEN KENNEY 
DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL CONNECTIVITY & CONTINUITY A: 158 Erie St. N | Leamington ON 
E: st...@wavedirect.org | P: 519-737-9283 
W: www.wavedirect.net 


From: "chuck"  
To: "af"  
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 9:08:50 PM 
Subject: [AFMUG] servers 

I need to put in some servers. I want to go durable. Last a long time. 
Thinking blade servers. 
Email, DNS etc, Perhaps in the future DHCP. Other things an ISP uses. 
Suggestions? I like the idea of hot swap etc. I realize VM and Hyper V, all 
kinds of virtualization makes life easy. 
But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability. 
Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it. 

-- 
AF mailing list 
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
-- 
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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[chuck]

We are, but I still like hardware redundancy.  

From: Josh Baird 
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2020 9:22 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] servers

Virtualizing often increases reliability.  You should consider it.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 9:09 PM  wrote:

  I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time.  
  Thinking blade servers.
  Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses.  

  Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper V, all 
kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
  But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability. 

  Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.  
  -- 
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  AF@af.afmug.com
  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Ryan McAfee]

That's the kind of situation where blades can make sense.
For general use, unless you have crazy space requirements, up until about
8-12 servers, at least, I wouldn't consider them. At a pay-per-U
datacenter, that could make sense.

Yes, we've used NetApp SANs for NFS/iSCSI. I've also seen good results with
many other brands of storage enclosure. Even QNAP has a decent storage
system at reasonable prices.

Blade systems CAN simplify cabling (unless you still need a ton of uplinks).
The HP c7000 system was pretty easy to manage, but we had issues with the
management cards in both chassis. Over time ping to the OAs would get
longer and longer until they quit responding and the onboard administrators
had to be reset. We had the issue with C7000 acquired in 2008 and another
in 2010. HP, of course, said "We've never seen this before". We just
accepted it as normal, eventually, and did a failover of the OAs, primary
to secondary, and rebooted them about once a month. That was non-disruptive
to the workload.
HP's converged networking makes a lot more sense to me than Cisco
UCS's (acquired 2013).

Overall, the blade system increased the price, left us constrained on
things like memory slots and ability to put in PCI cards and local disks.

Ryan


On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 8:44 AM  wrote:

> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re: servers (Lewis Bergman)
>2. Re: servers (Erich Kaiser)
>3. Re: servers (Chuck McCown)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2020 08:05:00 -0500
> From: Lewis Bergman 
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] servers
> Message-ID:
> <
> cad2cnaquan98ny_8dkh2yfzxezmv_agdwxdphlwqurcby1l...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I am really glad I read your post. I have always done it the way you
> describe but thought I would try blades this time. We do have to put this
> project in Equinix which means power requirements really matter a lot and
> it costs a decent amount to add more. Do you just have a big iSCSI for
> storage?
>
> By the way Chuck, I did not mention the HP DL20. It is a shallow 1U that
> could be mounted on a single post rack. Like any single post 1U, it could
> really use a shelf to add support to the back. They do fit anywhere. Not
> the fastest machines ever but more than enough to do what you want. But so
> are Atoms, Pi's and a tone of other tiny form factors. Even the NUC would
> bang out what you have for requirements.
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 8:59 PM Ryan McAfee  wrote:
>
> > Blade systems can be awesome, but they add a TON of complexity over
> > regular pizza-box servers.
> > Unless you need the hardware density of blades, I'd much rather have a
> > stack of HP DL360/DL380 or the Dell R740xd type servers (can't remember
> the
> > 1U equivalent on the Dell side).
> >
> > I've managed HP blade chassis (2 different generations) and Cisco UCS
> > blades in a VMWare environment. I've really not cared for either types.
> >
> > The 1U/2U servers are much easier to work on, have easy expansion slots,
> > places to mount disk bays, etc...
> > Plus you can get a 2-generation old server for a couple hundred dollars
> on
> > ebay and other vendors.
> >
> > At my $dayjob, we just put in a Dell R740xd2 stack of Hyper-V servers.
> The
> > hardware is pretty awesome.
> > We didn't even consider blades this time.
> >
> > Ryan
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 8:48 PM  wrote:
> >
> >> --
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 19:08:50 -0600
> >> From: 
> >> To: 
> >> Subject: [AFMUG] servers
> >> Message-ID: <760C91BEE8344A249EB9F7291415D03B@MCCOWNTECH.local>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>
> >> I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time.
> >> Thinking blade servers.
> >> Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses.
> >>
> >> Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper
> V,
> >> all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
> >> But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
> >>
> >> Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.
> >> -- next part --
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL: <
> >>
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/private/af_af.afmug.com/attachments/20200925/4beed145/attachment-0001.html
> >> >
> >>
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> AF mailing list
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> ***
>
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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Josh Baird]

Virtualizing often increases reliability.  You should consider it.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 9:09 PM  wrote:

> I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time.
> Thinking blade servers.
> Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses.
>
> Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper V,
> all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
> But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
>
> Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Lewis Bergman]

Erich,
What model of chassis and blades do you use?

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 8:20 AM Erich Kaiser 
wrote:

> Go with a blade server with support.  We have a Dell blade server and it
> has been rock solid, we had an issue with one of the management cards (Has
> 2 for redundancy) but Dell sent us a new one overnight (They would
> have even sent a tech out to replace it, but we just used our own) if your
> business depends on it spend the money and get the support.We also have
> stand alone servers that do other things as well (Other POP sites), but our
> primary stuff resides on the blade server.  The server was purchased
> through an acquisition we did and it came with Windows Datacenter on it
> already, I would probably not use it if we were rebuilding the system from
> scratch, would probably use VMWare but it has been rock solid.
>
>
> Erich Kaiser
> North Central Tower
> er...@northcentraltower.com
> Office: 815-570-3101
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 8:09 PM  wrote:
>
>> I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time.
>> Thinking blade servers.
>> Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses.
>>
>> Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper V,
>> all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
>> But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
>>
>> Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] servers


Chuck,

For the big stuff (mail server and virtual hosts), i use dell R620's I get off of ebay.  Knock on wood the run very well.  1U units, not very deep.  DNS i just run on some ITX boards,  I think they are A6-5200 or in that ballpark.  DNS doesn't need much.  I run 5 DNS servers in total.  3 that are resolvers for our customers.  1 main  server for all our hosts and 1 backup server in the cloud.

email is always fun.  I went with the linuxmagic guys years ago.  Haven't looked back.  I think it is a nice balance of having a system onsite and them doing 99% of the maintenance.

 
--
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Saturday, September 26, 2020, 9:45:04 AM, you wrote:





The problem with gmail is paying for each account.   Unless we are doing it wrong.  Something like $10/mo per account,

Sent from my iPhone





On Sep 26, 2020, at 6:44 AM, Lewis Bergman  wrote:








Anything DC is going to severely limit your choices. You need almost nothing for DNS and DHCP but email...useful email takes a decent machine nowadays for all the spam checking and header checks. I gave up doing email ages ago and went to gmail. Best decision I ever made. No need to spark a war, just a sideline comment.

As for reliability, Either Dell or HP I think are the best. Haven't done Dell in a while but when I did I was happy with them.  They both make blade servers. I have been researching blade servers recently for a new project. HP has an 8 slot C3000 and a 16 slot C7000. Dell has the M1000e. The HP has a storage blade that holds 16 drives and can serve as DAS, ISCSI, fiber channel and about any other disk access you like. I think you can put 8 of those in. They both have chassis management so you can manage the blades from a central admin console on a hardware level. Dell is more tightly integrated with VMWare than HP from what I could tell but I don't know what that integration buys you.

Both are available on the refurb market. 
This next bit may be incorrect but I don't think so from what I could tell:  
No matter if you buy refurb or brand new blades appear to come out a generation behind their rack mounted brothers. For instance in HP I think the latest you can get in a blade is a Gen9 server while current rack units and desktop servers are at Gen 10. Gen 10 has a better iLO5 (Integrated Lights Out) than Gen 8 and 9 iLO4. I don't believe you can upgrade that iLO separately as it is built into the MB. Dell used to have their DRAC which does the same thing and it plugged into a special slot so was independant of the MB and could be upgraded but I don't know what they have now. I assume HP moved to the on MB way to save money so I am assuming they have both moved that way.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 8:09 PM <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:




I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time.  
Thinking blade servers.
Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses.  
 
Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper V, all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability. 
 
Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.  
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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Chuck McCown]

The problem with gmail is paying for each account.   Unless we are doing it 
wrong.  Something like $10/mo per account,

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 26, 2020, at 6:44 AM, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
> 
> 
> Anything DC is going to severely limit your choices. You need almost nothing 
> for DNS and DHCP but email...useful email takes a decent machine nowadays for 
> all the spam checking and header checks. I gave up doing email ages ago and 
> went to gmail. Best decision I ever made. No need to spark a war, just a 
> sideline comment.
> 
> As for reliability, Either Dell or HP I think are the best. Haven't done Dell 
> in a while but when I did I was happy with them.  They both make blade 
> servers. I have been researching blade servers recently for a new project. HP 
> has an 8 slot C3000 and a 16 slot C7000. Dell has the M1000e. The HP has a 
> storage blade that holds 16 drives and can serve as DAS, ISCSI, fiber channel 
> and about any other disk access you like. I think you can put 8 of those in. 
> They both have chassis management so you can manage the blades from a central 
> admin console on a hardware level. Dell is more tightly integrated with 
> VMWare than HP from what I could tell but I don't know what that integration 
> buys you.
> 
> Both are available on the refurb market. 
> This next bit may be incorrect but I don't think so from what I could tell:  
> No matter if you buy refurb or brand new blades appear to come out a 
> generation behind their rack mounted brothers. For instance in HP I think the 
> latest you can get in a blade is a Gen9 server while current rack units and 
> desktop servers are at Gen 10. Gen 10 has a better iLO5 (Integrated Lights 
> Out) than Gen 8 and 9 iLO4. I don't believe you can upgrade that iLO 
> separately as it is built into the MB. Dell used to have their DRAC which 
> does the same thing and it plugged into a special slot so was independant of 
> the MB and could be upgraded but I don't know what they have now. I assume HP 
> moved to the on MB way to save money so I am assuming they have both moved 
> that way.
> 
>> On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 8:09 PM  wrote:
>> I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time. 
>> Thinking blade servers.
>> Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses. 
>>  
>> Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper V, 
>> all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
>> But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
>>  
>> Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it. 
>> -- 
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> 
> 
> -- 
> Lewis Bergman
> 325-439-0533 Cell
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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Chuck McCown]

DC is not a must.  I have 4000 watts of modular sine wave inverters fed from 
the DC plant.  Just one more thing to fail, but if they fail I am screwed 
anyhow.  They fail over to generator backed commercial power so I am probably 
good.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 26, 2020, at 6:44 AM, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
> 
> 
> Anything DC is going to severely limit your choices. You need almost nothing 
> for DNS and DHCP but email...useful email takes a decent machine nowadays for 
> all the spam checking and header checks. I gave up doing email ages ago and 
> went to gmail. Best decision I ever made. No need to spark a war, just a 
> sideline comment.
> 
> As for reliability, Either Dell or HP I think are the best. Haven't done Dell 
> in a while but when I did I was happy with them.  They both make blade 
> servers. I have been researching blade servers recently for a new project. HP 
> has an 8 slot C3000 and a 16 slot C7000. Dell has the M1000e. The HP has a 
> storage blade that holds 16 drives and can serve as DAS, ISCSI, fiber channel 
> and about any other disk access you like. I think you can put 8 of those in. 
> They both have chassis management so you can manage the blades from a central 
> admin console on a hardware level. Dell is more tightly integrated with 
> VMWare than HP from what I could tell but I don't know what that integration 
> buys you.
> 
> Both are available on the refurb market. 
> This next bit may be incorrect but I don't think so from what I could tell:  
> No matter if you buy refurb or brand new blades appear to come out a 
> generation behind their rack mounted brothers. For instance in HP I think the 
> latest you can get in a blade is a Gen9 server while current rack units and 
> desktop servers are at Gen 10. Gen 10 has a better iLO5 (Integrated Lights 
> Out) than Gen 8 and 9 iLO4. I don't believe you can upgrade that iLO 
> separately as it is built into the MB. Dell used to have their DRAC which 
> does the same thing and it plugged into a special slot so was independant of 
> the MB and could be upgraded but I don't know what they have now. I assume HP 
> moved to the on MB way to save money so I am assuming they have both moved 
> that way.
> 
>> On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 8:09 PM  wrote:
>> I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time. 
>> Thinking blade servers.
>> Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses. 
>>  
>> Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper V, 
>> all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
>> But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
>>  
>> Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it. 
>> -- 
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> 
> 
> -- 
> Lewis Bergman
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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Erich Kaiser]

Go with a blade server with support.  We have a Dell blade server and it
has been rock solid, we had an issue with one of the management cards (Has
2 for redundancy) but Dell sent us a new one overnight (They would
have even sent a tech out to replace it, but we just used our own) if your
business depends on it spend the money and get the support.We also have
stand alone servers that do other things as well (Other POP sites), but our
primary stuff resides on the blade server.  The server was purchased
through an acquisition we did and it came with Windows Datacenter on it
already, I would probably not use it if we were rebuilding the system from
scratch, would probably use VMWare but it has been rock solid.


Erich Kaiser
North Central Tower
er...@northcentraltower.com
Office: 815-570-3101





On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 8:09 PM  wrote:

> I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time.
> Thinking blade servers.
> Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses.
>
> Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper V,
> all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
> But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
>
> Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Lewis Bergman]

I am really glad I read your post. I have always done it the way you
describe but thought I would try blades this time. We do have to put this
project in Equinix which means power requirements really matter a lot and
it costs a decent amount to add more. Do you just have a big iSCSI for
storage?

By the way Chuck, I did not mention the HP DL20. It is a shallow 1U that
could be mounted on a single post rack. Like any single post 1U, it could
really use a shelf to add support to the back. They do fit anywhere. Not
the fastest machines ever but more than enough to do what you want. But so
are Atoms, Pi's and a tone of other tiny form factors. Even the NUC would
bang out what you have for requirements.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 8:59 PM Ryan McAfee  wrote:

> Blade systems can be awesome, but they add a TON of complexity over
> regular pizza-box servers.
> Unless you need the hardware density of blades, I'd much rather have a
> stack of HP DL360/DL380 or the Dell R740xd type servers (can't remember the
> 1U equivalent on the Dell side).
>
> I've managed HP blade chassis (2 different generations) and Cisco UCS
> blades in a VMWare environment. I've really not cared for either types.
>
> The 1U/2U servers are much easier to work on, have easy expansion slots,
> places to mount disk bays, etc...
> Plus you can get a 2-generation old server for a couple hundred dollars on
> ebay and other vendors.
>
> At my $dayjob, we just put in a Dell R740xd2 stack of Hyper-V servers. The
> hardware is pretty awesome.
> We didn't even consider blades this time.
>
> Ryan
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 8:48 PM  wrote:
>
>> ------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 19:08:50 -0600
>> From: 
>> To: 
>> Subject: [AFMUG] servers
>> Message-ID: <760C91BEE8344A249EB9F7291415D03B@MCCOWNTECH.local>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time.
>> Thinking blade servers.
>> Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses.
>>
>> Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper V,
>> all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
>> But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
>>
>> Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/private/af_af.afmug.com/attachments/20200925/4beed145/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> --
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
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>>
>> --
>>
>> End of AF Digest, Vol 28, Issue 447
>> ***
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Lewis Bergman]

Anything DC is going to severely limit your choices. You need almost
nothing for DNS and DHCP but email...useful email takes a decent machine
nowadays for all the spam checking and header checks. I gave up doing email
ages ago and went to gmail. Best decision I ever made. No need to spark a
war, just a sideline comment.

As for reliability, Either Dell or HP I think are the best. Haven't done
Dell in a while but when I did I was happy with them.  They both make blade
servers. I have been researching blade servers recently for a new project.
HP has an 8 slot C3000 and a 16 slot C7000. Dell has the M1000e. The HP has
a storage blade that holds 16 drives and can serve as DAS, ISCSI, fiber
channel and about any other disk access you like. I think you can put 8 of
those in. They both have chassis management so you can manage the blades
from a central admin console on a hardware level. Dell is more tightly
integrated with VMWare than HP from what I could tell but I don't know what
that integration buys you.

Both are available on the refurb market.
This next bit may be incorrect but I don't think so from what I could
tell:
No matter if you buy refurb or brand new blades appear to come out a
generation behind their rack mounted brothers. For instance in HP I think
the latest you can get in a blade is a Gen9 server while current rack units
and desktop servers are at Gen 10. Gen 10 has a better iLO5 (Integrated
Lights Out) than Gen 8 and 9 iLO4. I don't believe you can upgrade that iLO
separately as it is built into the MB. Dell used to have their DRAC which
does the same thing and it plugged into a special slot so was
independant of the MB and could be upgraded but I don't know what they have
now. I assume HP moved to the on MB way to save money so I am assuming they
have both moved that way.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 8:09 PM  wrote:

> I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time.
> Thinking blade servers.
> Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses.
>
> Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper V,
> all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
> But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
>
> Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 
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325-439-0533 Cell
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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Robert]

yeah that c2000 failure was a ripoff!!

On 9/25/20 8:06 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


Rotating components like fans and hard drives are what fails.  And 
batteries, look out for RAID controllers with battery backed write 
cache.  Assuming you bought a used several generations old server off 
lease, by the time the battery dies, you probably can’t buy a 
replacement. Oh, and power supplies seem to fail.


So fanless is good, SSD is good.  I don’t know about latest 
generation, but traditionally the HP/Compaq DL series rackmount 
servers are built like tanks, and things like redundant hot swap fans 
can mitigate the problem with fans failing.  Be sure to stock a few 
spare fan modules and power supplies.


IMHO if you are looking for a rackmount server, 2U is more reliable 
than 1U.  Things like fans and power supplies and heatsinks are 
compromised to fit into the 1U height.  Components in a 2U chassis can 
be a lot more robust.


Most of the HP and Dell servers will be very deep, and will need to go 
in a cabinet or 4 post rack. There are solutions for mounting a deep 
server in a 2 post rack but they are ugly.  If you want regular 
rackmount, Supermicro has a few short depth chassis servers that can 
be mounted without a rail kit.  I haven’t had any failure problems 
with Supermicro except a couple with ATOM C2000 LPC clock failures 
after a couple years and that was Intel’s fault.  They aren’t the 
mechanical thing of beauty inside though that a DL380 is, the 
mechanical design is just good enough.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Friday, September 25, 2020 9:34 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] servers

Like something that is not so long that I have to put in a cabinet. 
 Regular rack mount would be nice,


Sent from my iPhone



On Sep 25, 2020, at 8:33 PM, Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

Some windows, some Linux.  48vdc would be nice.  Not lots of hp.

Sent from my iPhone



On Sep 25, 2020, at 8:16 PM, Robert mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:

 Unless you need a lot of HP, fanless, like atoms, driven off
of a DC power supply. What OS?

On 9/25/20 6:08 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
wrote:

I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable. 
Last a long time.

Thinking blade servers.

Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things
an ISP uses.

Suggestions? I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize
VM and Hyper V, all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.

But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.

Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.




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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Ken Hohhof]

Rotating components like fans and hard drives are what fails.  And batteries, 
look out for RAID controllers with battery backed write cache.  Assuming you 
bought a used several generations old server off lease, by the time the battery 
dies, you probably can’t buy a replacement.  Oh, and power supplies seem to 
fail.

 

So fanless is good, SSD is good.  I don’t know about latest generation, but 
traditionally the HP/Compaq DL series rackmount servers are built like tanks, 
and things like redundant hot swap fans can mitigate the problem with fans 
failing.  Be sure to stock a few spare fan modules and power supplies.

 

IMHO if you are looking for a rackmount server, 2U is more reliable than 1U.  
Things like fans and power supplies and heatsinks are compromised to fit into 
the 1U height.  Components in a 2U chassis can be a lot more robust.

 

Most of the HP and Dell servers will be very deep, and will need to go in a 
cabinet or 4 post rack.  There are solutions for mounting a deep server in a 2 
post rack but they are ugly.  If you want regular rackmount, Supermicro has a 
few short depth chassis servers that can be mounted without a rail kit.  I 
haven’t had any failure problems with Supermicro except a couple with ATOM 
C2000 LPC clock failures after a couple years and that was Intel’s fault.  They 
aren’t the mechanical thing of beauty inside though that a DL380 is, the 
mechanical design is just good enough.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 9:34 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] servers

 

Like something that is not so long that I have to put in a cabinet.  Regular 
rack mount would be nice,

Sent from my iPhone





On Sep 25, 2020, at 8:33 PM, Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > wrote:

Some windows, some Linux.  48vdc would be nice.  Not lots of hp.

Sent from my iPhone





On Sep 25, 2020, at 8:16 PM, Robert mailto:i...@avantwireless.com> > wrote:

 Unless you need a lot of HP, fanless, like atoms, driven off of a DC power 
supply. What OS?  

On 9/25/20 6:08 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>  wrote:

I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time.  

Thinking blade servers.

Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses.  

 

Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper V, all 
kinds of virtualization makes life easy.

But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability. 

 

Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.  






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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Robert]

up to 24v single disk and external extra disk...   I use these p/s
changing the connections to powerpole..

https://www.mini-box.com/M3-ATX-HV-DC-DC-ATX-Automotive-Computer-car-PC-Power-Supply?sc=8&category=981


On 9/25/20 7:34 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Like something that is not so long that I have to put in a cabinet. 
 Regular rack mount would be nice,


Sent from my iPhone


On Sep 25, 2020, at 8:33 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

 Some windows, some Linux.  48vdc would be nice.  Not lots of hp.

Sent from my iPhone


On Sep 25, 2020, at 8:16 PM, Robert  wrote:

 Unless you need a lot of HP, fanless, like atoms, driven off of a 
DC power supply. What OS?


On 9/25/20 6:08 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long 
time.

Thinking blade servers.
Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP. Other things an ISP uses.
Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc. I realize VM and 
Hyper V, all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.

But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.



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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Chuck McCown]

Like something that is not so long that I have to put in a cabinet.  Regular 
rack mount would be nice,

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 25, 2020, at 8:33 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> 
> Some windows, some Linux.  48vdc would be nice.  Not lots of hp.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Sep 25, 2020, at 8:16 PM, Robert  wrote:
>>> 
>>  Unless you need a lot of HP, fanless, like atoms, driven off of a DC power 
>> supply. What OS?  
>> 
>> On 9/25/20 6:08 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>>> I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time. 
>>> Thinking blade servers.
>>> Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses. 
>>>  
>>> Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper V, 
>>> all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
>>> But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
>>>  
>>> Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it. 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Chuck McCown]

Some windows, some Linux.  48vdc would be nice.  Not lots of hp.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 25, 2020, at 8:16 PM, Robert  wrote:
> 
>  Unless you need a lot of HP, fanless, like atoms, driven off of a DC power 
> supply. What OS?  
> 
> On 9/25/20 6:08 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>> I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time. 
>> Thinking blade servers.
>> Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses. 
>>  
>> Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper V, 
>> all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
>> But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
>>  
>> Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it. 
>> 
>> 
> 
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> AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Robert]

Unless you need a lot of HP, fanless, like atoms, driven off of a DC 
power supply. What OS?


On 9/25/20 6:08 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable. Last a long time.
Thinking blade servers.
Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses.
Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper 
V, all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.

But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.



-- 
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Re: [AFMUG] servers

[Ryan McAfee]

Blade systems can be awesome, but they add a TON of complexity over regular
pizza-box servers.
Unless you need the hardware density of blades, I'd much rather have a
stack of HP DL360/DL380 or the Dell R740xd type servers (can't remember the
1U equivalent on the Dell side).

I've managed HP blade chassis (2 different generations) and Cisco UCS
blades in a VMWare environment. I've really not cared for either types.

The 1U/2U servers are much easier to work on, have easy expansion slots,
places to mount disk bays, etc...
Plus you can get a 2-generation old server for a couple hundred dollars on
ebay and other vendors.

At my $dayjob, we just put in a Dell R740xd2 stack of Hyper-V servers. The
hardware is pretty awesome.
We didn't even consider blades this time.

Ryan

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 8:48 PM  wrote:

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> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 19:08:50 -0600
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> Subject: [AFMUG] servers
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> I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time.
> Thinking blade servers.
> Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses.
>
> Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper V,
> all kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
> But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability.
>
> Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.
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[AFMUG] servers

[chuck]

I need to put in some servers.  I want to go durable.  Last a long time.  
Thinking blade servers.
Email, DNS etc,  Perhaps in the future DHCP.  Other things an ISP uses.  

Suggestions?  I like the idea of hot swap etc.  I realize VM and Hyper V, all 
kinds of virtualization makes life easy.
But irrespective, I want bare metal reliability. 

Then perhaps NAS/SAN on top of it.  -- 
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