Re: [AFMUG] BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM attack)

[Paul Stewart]

I never found anything exciting about them … (and yes have wasted money on 
buying some of them a number of years ago) … they change outbound routing 
because that’s the only thing they can control (and perhaps the latest 
generation can influence your inbound routes) but I found they spit out fancy 
reports of all the things wrong that it fixed to save 1-2 ms on a bunch of 
routes…. 


> On Sep 1, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> There are appliances that receive your traffic information through various 
> ways (traffic flows, port mirroring, etc.) and see who you're communicating 
> with remotely. They then do tests to that destination out each of your 
> upstream interfaces. They determine which upstream has the best performance 
> to that destination and then adjust your BGP settings (advertised and 
> received) such as prefix length, communities, local pref, MED, etc. to move 
> that traffic to that upstream.
> 
> They do this to work around congestion, long AS paths that may be better than 
> short AS paths for whatever reason, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>   
>  
>  
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>   
>  
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> From: "Steve Jones"  >
> To: af@afmug.com 
> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 10:45:03 PM
> Subject: [AFMUG] Fwd: Re: BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM   
>  attack)
> 
> Please convert this to a guy who just got into bgp. What are rhey talking 
> about exactly?
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: "Mike Hammett" mailto:na...@ics-il.net>>
> Date: Aug 31, 2017 9:06 PM
> Subject: Re: BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM attack)
> To: 
> Cc: mailto:na...@nanog.org>>
> 
> Sorry for now taking up 1/4 of this thread
> 
> 
> My words in the last message don't match what I was thinking, but I think you 
> all get the point. I'm sick, maybe I should be in bed instead of on NANOG.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com 
> 
> Midwest-IX
> http://www.midwest-ix.com 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "Mike Hammett" mailto:na...@ics-il.net>>
> Cc: na...@nanog.org 
> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 9:02:07 PM
> Subject: Re: BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM attack)
> 
> Actually, I do remember that one of them would optimize inbound routes, but 
> only billed on outbound usage (as it was content-focused). My in is over 8x 
> my out, so hrm... maybe I'm on to something.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com 
> 
> Midwest-IX
> http://www.midwest-ix.com 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "Mike Hammett" mailto:na...@ics-il.net>>
> Cc: na...@nanog.org 
> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 8:55:46 PM
> Subject: Re: BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM attack)
> 
> I would like to use a BGP optimizer, but I'm too poor. :-\
> 
> That said, I'm also an eyeball network, so modifications of my own 
> advertisements are what affects the desired traffic, not so much the outbound 
> routes. I know the BGP optimization industry is weighted towards content 
> networks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com 
> 
> Midwest-IX
> http://www.midwest-ix.com 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "Job Snijders" mailto:j...@ntt.net>>
> To: na...@nanog.org 
> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 3:06:49 PM
> Subject: BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM attack)
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> disclaimer:
> 
> [ The following is targetted at the context where a BGP optimizer
> generates BGP announcement that are ordinarily not seen in the
> Default-Free Zone. The OP indicated they announce a /23, and were
> unpleasantly surprised to see two unauthorized announcements for /24
> more-specifics pop up in their alerting system. No permission was
> granted to create and announce these more-specifics. The AS_PATH
> for those /24 announcements was entirely fabricated. Original thread
> https://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/2017-August/092124.html 
>  ]
> 
> 

Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

[timreichhart]

Mike
if you can send it to me also that would be great.

Tim



 

-Original Message-
From: "Adam Moffett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Date: 09/03/17 09:07
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact


Thank you Mike!




-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Hammett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 9/2/2017 9:46:29 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact


Sent offlist.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP





From: "Adam Moffett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 3:21:15 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

Maybe a long shot, but does anyone here have a contact at Frontier Telephone 
for pole attachment or joint use of plant?

Thanks,
Adam

Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

[Mike Hammett]

Sent offlist. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "timreichhart"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 9:11:21 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact 


Mike 
if you can send it to me also that would be great. 

Tim 







-Original Message- 
From: "Adam Moffett" < dmmoff...@gmail.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Date: 09/03/17 09:07 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact 


Thank you Mike! 




-- Original Message -- 
From: "Mike Hammett" < af...@ics-il.net > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 9/2/2017 9:46:29 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact 





Sent offlist. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Adam Moffett" < dmmoff...@gmail.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 3:21:15 PM 
Subject: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact 

Maybe a long shot, but does anyone here have a contact at Frontier Telephone 
for pole attachment or joint use of plant? 


Thanks, 
Adam 

Re: [AFMUG] BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM attack)

[Mike Hammett]

There are a few that influence inbound routes as well, which would be of 
interest to eyeballs. There's even one or two that charge based on outgoing 
utilization, but influence inbound routes. That's great for an eyeball. 

It does allow one to purchase from networks with likely more congestion than 
others (Cogent, HE) in addition to a more expensive provider and not worry 
about encountering said congestion. Obviously more of an issue in some markets 
than others and more likely to matter to an enterprise-serving ISP than a 
pureplay residential with good peering. Without good peering, sure, try one of 
these guys. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Paul Stewart"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 7:34:13 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM attack) 


I never found anything exciting about them … (and yes have wasted money on 
buying some of them a number of years ago) … they change outbound routing 
because that’s the only thing they can control (and perhaps the latest 
generation can influence your inbound routes) but I found they spit out fancy 
reports of all the things wrong that it fixed to save 1-2 ms on a bunch of 
routes…. 







On Sep 1, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 


There are appliances that receive your traffic information through various ways 
(traffic flows, port mirroring, etc.) and see who you're communicating with 
remotely. They then do tests to that destination out each of your upstream 
interfaces. They determine which upstream has the best performance to that 
destination and then adjust your BGP settings (advertised and received) such as 
prefix length, communities, local pref, MED, etc. to move that traffic to that 
upstream. 

They do this to work around congestion, long AS paths that may be better than 
short AS paths for whatever reason, etc. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Steve Jones" < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 10:45:03 PM 
Subject: [AFMUG] Fwd: Re: BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM 
attack) 


Please convert this to a guy who just got into bgp. What are rhey talking about 
exactly? 
-- Forwarded message -- 
From: "Mike Hammett" < na...@ics-il.net > 
Date: Aug 31, 2017 9:06 PM 
Subject: Re: BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM attack) 
To: 
Cc: < na...@nanog.org > 



Sorry for now taking up 1/4 of this thread 


My words in the last message don't match what I was thinking, but I think you 
all get the point. I'm sick, maybe I should be in bed instead of on NANOG. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

Midwest-IX 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 

- Original Message - 

From: "Mike Hammett" < na...@ics-il.net > 
Cc: na...@nanog.org 
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 9:02:07 PM 
Subject: Re: BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM attack) 

Actually, I do remember that one of them would optimize inbound routes, but 
only billed on outbound usage (as it was content-focused). My in is over 8x my 
out, so hrm... maybe I'm on to something. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

Midwest-IX 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 

- Original Message - 

From: "Mike Hammett" < na...@ics-il.net > 
Cc: na...@nanog.org 
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 8:55:46 PM 
Subject: Re: BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM attack) 

I would like to use a BGP optimizer, but I'm too poor. :-\ 

That said, I'm also an eyeball network, so modifications of my own 
advertisements are what affects the desired traffic, not so much the outbound 
routes. I know the BGP optimization industry is weighted towards content 
networks. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

Midwest-IX 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 

- Original Message - 

From: "Job Snijders" < j...@ntt.net > 
To: na...@nanog.org 
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 3:06:49 PM 
Subject: BGP Optimizers (Was: Validating possible BGP MITM attack) 

Dear all, 

disclaimer: 

[ The following is targetted at the context where a BGP optimizer 
generates BGP announcement that are ordinarily not seen in the 
Default-Free Zone. The OP indicated they announce a /23, and were 
unpleasantly surprised to see two unauthorized announcements for /24 
more-specifics pop up in their alerting system. No permission was 
granted to create and announce these more-specifics. The AS_PATH 
for those /24 announcements was entirely fabricated. Original thread 
https://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/2017-August/092124.html ] 

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 11:13:18AM -0700, Andy Litzinger wrote: 
> Presuming it was a

Re: [AFMUG] Serverplus/powercode users, OT

[Josh Luthman]

JT is who I work with on the DT, he's pretty sharp and gets the job done.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Steve Jones 
wrote:

> Point taken
>
> On Sep 2, 2017 6:01 PM, "Darin Steffl"  wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>>
>> If you're having this much trouble, your decision tree is messed up
>> somewhere. We've never had them ask for any MAC address for anything. They
>> generally take calls well for the most part. Sometimes there's a call that
>> I think WTF are you doing but not many.
>>
>> We love having serverplus answer calls after hours for us so we at least
>> know our customers get a human being if they're having trouble. Most calls
>> that don't go well can be fixed with an update to our decision tree.
>>
>> I don't think you have your process fine tuned with them yet so I highly
>> suggest you work with their team to get things figured out. They're easy to
>> work with and Layne will do his best to make sure you're happy. Just tone
>> down the attitude a little bit so you don't offend them or who will want to
>> help you ;)
>>
>> On Sep 1, 2017 2:36 PM, "Steve Jones"  wrote:
>>
>>> dispatching for pc support? do you charge for service calls? I can se
>>> willy nilly dispatch if you charge, revenue driver.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Matt Hoppes <
>>> mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
>>>
 No.. that's what outsourced should have determined what the issue was.
 Radio is up... customer has no Internet - dispatch.

 On 9/1/17 3:14 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:

>
> We got a call today from a customer who also was down last week.
> radio looks fine.Router has a connection.If This Were
> outsourced
> to tech support where they kick it back to us?
>
> Looks like we will be sending someone out there anyway it might even be
> an id10terror
>
> Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone
>
> - Reply message -
> From: "Steve Jones" 
> To: "af@afmug.com" 
> Subject: [AFMUG] Serverplus/powercode users, OT
> Date: Fri, Sep 1, 2017 11:39 AM
>
> youre not going to have them powercycle or verify things are plugged in
> correctly? that's ALOT of truck rolls
>
> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Matt Hoppes
>  > wrote:
>
> Exactly... I just signed up with SP and my decision tree is going
> to
> be extremely simple and straight forward... so easy even a cave man
> can do it.
>
> Is your router on?   Are you connected to your router?  Can you
> ping
> your router?  Can you ping our modem?  Can I ping our modem?  Do
> you
> get proper speeds when plugged into our modem?
>
> ESCALATE.   What else is there to troubleshoot locally?  Unless
> your
> network is @#$@#.
>
> This entire process should take sub 5 minutes to complete.
>
> END RESULT:
> Your computer is borked.
> Your router is borked.
> Our connection to you is borked -- dispatch.
>
> On 9/1/17 8:58 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>
> I have good luck with ServerPlus.  Part of the quality you get
> from them
> depends on the quality of the decision tree you give them.
>
> *From:* Sterling Jacobson
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 31, 2017 10:22 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Serverplus/powercode users, OT
>
>
> Not surprising, but sad to hear things haven’t changed one bit
> with
> ServerPlus in the years since I swore I would never use them
> again, lol!
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
> ] *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 31, 2017 8:45 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Serverplus/powercode users, OT
>
>
>
> Supposed to specifically state not to ask for a mac from box.
> Because it
> was an issue. But, i bet we get an accurate bill. The bills are
> always
> consistent. The level of irate i have right now excedes my bac,
> thats
> pretty high at 944 pm
>
>
>
> On Aug 31, 2017 9:31 PM, "Josh Luthman"
>  > wrote:
>
> That idea is coming from somewhere and I too would think it
> comes
> from the DT.  None of my calls say anything about MAC (we
> NAT our SM).
>
>
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340 
> 
> Di

Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

[Chris Fabien]

Mike do you have any info you can share about what the process and costs
involved in this would be?

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

> Sent offlist.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"timreichhart" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Monday, September 4, 2017 9:11:21 AM
>
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact
>
> Mike
> if you can send it to me also that would be great.
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>
> --
> -Original Message-
> From: "Adam Moffett" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Date: 09/03/17 09:07
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact
>
> Thank you Mike!
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mike Hammett" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 9/2/2017 9:46:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact
>
> Sent offlist.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From:* "Adam Moffett" 
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Sent:* Friday, September 1, 2017 3:21:15 PM
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact
>
> Maybe a long shot, but does anyone here have a contact at Frontier
> Telephone for pole attachment or joint use of plant?
>
> Thanks,
> Adam
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

[Mike Hammett]

I haven't completed the process. Largely just found the contacts after my power 
company saying they required agreements with AT&T and Frontier as well. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chris Fabien"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 9:54:46 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact 


Mike do you have any info you can share about what the process and costs 
involved in this would be? 


On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




Sent offlist. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "timreichhart" < timreichh...@hometowncable.net > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 9:11:21 AM 


Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact 


Mike 
if you can send it to me also that would be great. 

Tim 







-Original Message- 
From: "Adam Moffett" < dmmoff...@gmail.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Date: 09/03/17 09:07 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact 


Thank you Mike! 




-- Original Message -- 
From: "Mike Hammett" < af...@ics-il.net > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 9/2/2017 9:46:29 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact 





Sent offlist. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Adam Moffett" < dmmoff...@gmail.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 3:21:15 PM 
Subject: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact 

Maybe a long shot, but does anyone here have a contact at Frontier Telephone 
for pole attachment or joint use of plant? 


Thanks, 
Adam 

Re: [AFMUG] easy backup link failover

[Kurt Fankhauser]

OSPF cost for backup route definitely needs to be higher... you can
standardize all you want on some numbering system but as your network grows
and you need to push some traffic in some directions and not others you
will need the flexibility to manipulate path costs quite a bit.

On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 4:59 PM, Faisal Imtiaz 
wrote:

> Some more food for thought...
>
>
> We are finding that setting up /configuring the OSPF links as PTP  tends
> to provide faster failover convergence
> which becomes even more useful when it can be combined with bfd
>
> In regards to the weights, it's more of a 'six or half a dozen of another'
>  what values you use to affect the change will be determined by what
> exactly you are trying to achieve and 'flow' of traffic on your OSPF
> network..
>
> Regards.
>
> Faisal Imtiaz
> Snappy Internet & Telecom
> 7266 SW 48 Street
> Miami, FL 33155
> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 <(305)%20663-5518>
>
> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 <(305)%20663-5518> Option 2 or Email:
> supp...@snappytelecom.net
>
> --
>
> *From: *"Steve Jones" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Sunday, September 3, 2017 4:47:03 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] easy backup link failover
>
> I was thinking about that, 10 doesn't give much room for manipulation
>
> On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 9:26 PM, George Skorup 
> wrote:
>
>> That's typically what I do, just make the parallel backup path one higher
>> at both ends.
>>
>> But I'll tell you this right now, consider a larger scale for your
>> interface costs. As your OSPF domain grows into more complex rings or more
>> of a mesh, shit will start to get complicated and you'll wish you had more
>> granularity. What I'm moving to is interface cost based on link bandwidth.
>> Kinda like Cisco's auto-cost, but not auto because MikroTik is stupid.
>> Anyway.. take 100,000 ÷ link bw in Mbps. So 1G=100. An AF24 around 770Mbps
>> would be a cost of about 130. A 360Mbps SAF link would be about 277. Etc,
>> etc. Lots of granularity for tweaking traffic flow.
>>
>>
>> On 9/2/2017 4:08 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
>>
>>> we are replacing two links, currently cheap 5ghz (one epmp ptp and one
>>> ubnt nanobridge) with mimosa 11ghz, we dont need that much bandwidth right
>>> now so im leaving the old links in parallel.
>>>
>>> I just put the path cost on the interface for the 5ghz at 11 and left
>>> the 11ghz at 10. it seems to serve this purpose. but the other links in the
>>> redundancy will see that extra 1 in path cost on failover, not so awful a
>>> deal since it will drop capacity by 90 percent, but would i have been
>>> better to leave the 5ghz at 10 and drop the 11ghz to 5?
>>>
>>>
>>
>

[AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Kurt Fankhauser]

I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North Korea
what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? Will we not
be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products made in
China for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and if i can
no longer get those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[chuck]

Walmart much bigger problem

From: Kurt Fankhauser 
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 9:56 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North Korea 
what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? Will we not be 
able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products made in China for 
our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and if i can no longer get 
those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Bill Prince]

Well, if it is typical for this administration, whatever "plan" they 
come up with will not have been thought through, with little or no 
regard what the whole consequences will be.


Name one thing that you use daily that does not have some component made 
in China.



bp


On 9/4/2017 8:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser wrote:
I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North 
Korea what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? 
Will we not be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on 
products made in China for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti 
products and if i can no longer get those my WISP operations would be 
severely crippled...

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Josh Reynolds]

​Edit: I just realized my mail got stuck in draft.​

Walmart and therefore most Americans would be severely impacted by the loss
of cheap goods.

Tech imports come to a halt.

Etc
​.

It's far larger than all that, I'm just touching on a small part of the
surface issues. ​
Nasty, nasty stuff.

At this point though, the alternative to THAT is getting increasingly and
sadly more likely day by day.

South Korea would be in deep shit.

On Sep 4, 2017 10:56 AM, "Kurt Fankhauser"  wrote:

> I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North
> Korea what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? Will
> we not be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products made
> in China for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and if i
> can no longer get those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...
>

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Josh Reynolds]

The short version of this, is that for the first time since April
30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually
realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact
for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more
conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we were
at one time.

The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to
increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually a
multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the past
between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran would
likely be quick to follow.

None of this is any good.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser
 wrote:
> I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North Korea
> what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? Will we not
> be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products made in
> China for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and if i can
> no longer get those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Steve Jones]

Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table
Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered
factories
we haven't closed the door on cuba yet
There is no shortage of slave labor nations, china knows this.
When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do, its best
to spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to do with this.
It will hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end, we would be better,
critical components will make their way back to silicon valley, the rest of
the stuff will spread out.

We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.




On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

> The short version of this, is that for the first time since April
> 30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually
> realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact
> for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more
> conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we were
> at one time.
>
> The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to
> increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually a
> multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the past
> between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran would
> likely be quick to follow.
>
> None of this is any good.
>
> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser
>  wrote:
> > I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North
> Korea
> > what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? Will we
> not
> > be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products made in
> > China for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and if i
> can
> > no longer get those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...
>

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[chuck]

Lets invoke Lent...

From: Steve Jones 
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:44 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table
Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered factories
we haven't closed the door on cuba yet
There is no shortage of slave labor nations, china knows this.
When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do, its best to 
spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to do with this. It will 
hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end, we would be better, critical 
components will make their way back to silicon valley, the rest of the stuff 
will spread out. 

We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this. 




On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

  The short version of this, is that for the first time since April
  30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually
  realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact
  for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more
  conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we were
  at one time.

  The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to
  increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually a
  multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the past
  between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran would
  likely be quick to follow.

  None of this is any good.

  On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser

   wrote:
  > I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North Korea
  > what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? Will we not
  > be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products made in
  > China for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and if i can
  > no longer get those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Josh Reynolds]

> We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.

No, that's folly.

It's economic M.A.D. It would crash both the US and Chinese
economies... would also impact Taiwan / HK.

As far as tech stuff, we'd be fucked for a few years. China has 85-95%
of the world's rare earth mining capacity used in things we use every
day, from watches, phones, cars, drones, military equipment, medical
equipment, things NASA depends on, etc. They have roughly 1/3rd of the
world's rare earth deposits, but there is no production really spun up
anywhere else. We have a place in California, and friends in
Australia, but those facilities are closed due to the low Chinese
prices.

If you thought the crashes of 2000/2008 were bad, imagine 25-35%
unemployment that would largely not be soaked up by newly opened US
facilities due to the cost of manufacturing here.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:44 AM, Steve Jones  wrote:
> Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
> Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table
> Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered
> factories
> we haven't closed the door on cuba yet
> There is no shortage of slave labor nations, china knows this.
> When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do, its best
> to spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to do with this. It
> will hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end, we would be better,
> critical components will make their way back to silicon valley, the rest of
> the stuff will spread out.
>
> We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>>
>> The short version of this, is that for the first time since April
>> 30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually
>> realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact
>> for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more
>> conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we were
>> at one time.
>>
>> The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to
>> increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually a
>> multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the past
>> between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran would
>> likely be quick to follow.
>>
>> None of this is any good.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser
>>  wrote:
>> > I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North
>> > Korea
>> > what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? Will we
>> > not
>> > be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products made in
>> > China for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and if i
>> > can
>> > no longer get those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Jaime Solorza]

Any notice how Lentish I have been?  I pray for Divine Intervention.. maybe
we should return FRB call that we received August 15have a nice day!

On Sep 4, 2017 11:00 AM,  wrote:

> Lets invoke Lent...
>
> *From:* Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Monday, September 4, 2017 10:44 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless
> radios...
>
> Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
> Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table
> Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered
> factories
> we haven't closed the door on cuba yet
> There is no shortage of slave labor nations, china knows this.
> When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do, its
> best to spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to do with
> this. It will hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end, we would be
> better, critical components will make their way back to silicon valley, the
> rest of the stuff will spread out.
>
> We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
>
>> The short version of this, is that for the first time since April
>> 30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually
>> realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact
>> for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more
>> conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we were
>> at one time.
>>
>> The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to
>> increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually a
>> multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the past
>> between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran would
>> likely be quick to follow.
>>
>> None of this is any good.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser
>>  wrote:
>> > I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North
>> Korea
>> > what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? Will we
>> not
>> > be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products made in
>> > China for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and if i
>> can
>> > no longer get those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Kurt Fankhauser]

Our only hope here is China gets serious and steps up and imposes its own
sanctions against North Korea so that we don't have to cut China off from
our economy.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

> > We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.
>
> No, that's folly.
>
> It's economic M.A.D. It would crash both the US and Chinese
> economies... would also impact Taiwan / HK.
>
> As far as tech stuff, we'd be fucked for a few years. China has 85-95%
> of the world's rare earth mining capacity used in things we use every
> day, from watches, phones, cars, drones, military equipment, medical
> equipment, things NASA depends on, etc. They have roughly 1/3rd of the
> world's rare earth deposits, but there is no production really spun up
> anywhere else. We have a place in California, and friends in
> Australia, but those facilities are closed due to the low Chinese
> prices.
>
> If you thought the crashes of 2000/2008 were bad, imagine 25-35%
> unemployment that would largely not be soaked up by newly opened US
> facilities due to the cost of manufacturing here.
>
> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:44 AM, Steve Jones 
> wrote:
> > Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
> > Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table
> > Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered
> > factories
> > we haven't closed the door on cuba yet
> > There is no shortage of slave labor nations, china knows this.
> > When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do, its
> best
> > to spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to do with
> this. It
> > will hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end, we would be better,
> > critical components will make their way back to silicon valley, the rest
> of
> > the stuff will spread out.
> >
> > We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> The short version of this, is that for the first time since April
> >> 30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually
> >> realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact
> >> for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more
> >> conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we were
> >> at one time.
> >>
> >> The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to
> >> increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually a
> >> multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the past
> >> between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran would
> >> likely be quick to follow.
> >>
> >> None of this is any good.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser
> >>  wrote:
> >> > I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North
> >> > Korea
> >> > what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? Will
> we
> >> > not
> >> > be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products made
> in
> >> > China for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and if i
> >> > can
> >> > no longer get those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...
> >
> >
>

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Rory Conaway]

There is no way China let's North Korea affect their economy.  They will take 
Kim out long before that happens.  

The only reason the Chinese Communist Party stays in power is because of its 
economy.  And that control only works if growth is at 7% or more.  If that 
growth stagnates or their economy gets worse, their power erodes quickly.  

The Chinese like having North Korea as a buffer on their border.  They know if 
there is a war, South Korea will take it over and they lose that buffer.  And 
if there is a war, they are going to be blamed and the U.S. is going to be far 
more than just pissed off over this.  Given their 2 choices, I say they take 
Kim out before that happens.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:03 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

> We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.

No, that's folly.

It's economic M.A.D. It would crash both the US and Chinese economies... would 
also impact Taiwan / HK.

As far as tech stuff, we'd be fucked for a few years. China has 85-95% of the 
world's rare earth mining capacity used in things we use every day, from 
watches, phones, cars, drones, military equipment, medical equipment, things 
NASA depends on, etc. They have roughly 1/3rd of the world's rare earth 
deposits, but there is no production really spun up anywhere else. We have a 
place in California, and friends in Australia, but those facilities are closed 
due to the low Chinese prices.

If you thought the crashes of 2000/2008 were bad, imagine 25-35% unemployment 
that would largely not be soaked up by newly opened US facilities due to the 
cost of manufacturing here.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:44 AM, Steve Jones  wrote:
> Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
> Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table 
> Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered 
> factories we haven't closed the door on cuba yet There is no shortage 
> of slave labor nations, china knows this.
> When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do, its 
> best to spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to do 
> with this. It will hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end, we 
> would be better, critical components will make their way back to 
> silicon valley, the rest of the stuff will spread out.
>
> We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>>
>> The short version of this, is that for the first time since April 
>> 30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually 
>> realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact 
>> for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more 
>> conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we were 
>> at one time.
>>
>> The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to 
>> increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually a 
>> multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the 
>> past between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran 
>> would likely be quick to follow.
>>
>> None of this is any good.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser 
>>  wrote:
>> > I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for 
>> > North Korea what does this mean for wireless radios that are made 
>> > in China? Will we not be able to import them anymore? We rely quite 
>> > a bit on products made in China for our everyday lives. I use alot 
>> > of Ubiquiti products and if i can no longer get those my WISP 
>> > operations would be severely crippled...
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Robert Andrews]

Then we better get our act back together on rare-earth minerals..

On 09/04/2017 09:44 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table
Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered 
factories

we haven't closed the door on cuba yet
There is no shortage of slave labor nations, china knows this.
When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do, its 
best to spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to do with 
this. It will hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end, we would be 
better, critical components will make their way back to silicon valley, 
the rest of the stuff will spread out.


We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.




On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds > wrote:


The short version of this, is that for the first time since April
30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually
realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact
for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more
conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we were
at one time.

The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to
increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually a
multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the past
between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran would
likely be quick to follow.

None of this is any good.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser
mailto:lists.wavel...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 > I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for
North Korea
 > what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China?
Will we not
 > be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products
made in
 > China for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and
if i can
 > no longer get those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Robert Andrews]

There is an amazing rare-earth deposit that was supposed to be opened up 
in Alaska, but alas, it was deemed to valuable a nature resource..   It 
could have been opened up carefully, but instead might end up being 
opened up in a mad rush.  guess what would have been better for the 
environment..


On 09/04/2017 10:03 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote:

We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.


No, that's folly.

It's economic M.A.D. It would crash both the US and Chinese
economies... would also impact Taiwan / HK.

As far as tech stuff, we'd be fucked for a few years. China has 85-95%
of the world's rare earth mining capacity used in things we use every
day, from watches, phones, cars, drones, military equipment, medical
equipment, things NASA depends on, etc. They have roughly 1/3rd of the
world's rare earth deposits, but there is no production really spun up
anywhere else. We have a place in California, and friends in
Australia, but those facilities are closed due to the low Chinese
prices.

If you thought the crashes of 2000/2008 were bad, imagine 25-35%
unemployment that would largely not be soaked up by newly opened US
facilities due to the cost of manufacturing here.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:44 AM, Steve Jones  wrote:

Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table
Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered
factories
we haven't closed the door on cuba yet
There is no shortage of slave labor nations, china knows this.
When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do, its best
to spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to do with this. It
will hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end, we would be better,
critical components will make their way back to silicon valley, the rest of
the stuff will spread out.

We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.




On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:


The short version of this, is that for the first time since April
30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually
realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact
for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more
conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we were
at one time.

The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to
increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually a
multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the past
between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran would
likely be quick to follow.

None of this is any good.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser
 wrote:

I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North
Korea
what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? Will we
not
be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products made in
China for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and if i
can
no longer get those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Josh Reynolds]

Anything that would affect the fishing economy there would be no-bueno.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 12:25 PM, Robert Andrews  wrote:
> There is an amazing rare-earth deposit that was supposed to be opened up in
> Alaska, but alas, it was deemed to valuable a nature resource..   It could
> have been opened up carefully, but instead might end up being opened up in a
> mad rush.  guess what would have been better for the environment..
>
> On 09/04/2017 10:03 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote:
>>>
>>> We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.
>>
>>
>> No, that's folly.
>>
>> It's economic M.A.D. It would crash both the US and Chinese
>> economies... would also impact Taiwan / HK.
>>
>> As far as tech stuff, we'd be fucked for a few years. China has 85-95%
>> of the world's rare earth mining capacity used in things we use every
>> day, from watches, phones, cars, drones, military equipment, medical
>> equipment, things NASA depends on, etc. They have roughly 1/3rd of the
>> world's rare earth deposits, but there is no production really spun up
>> anywhere else. We have a place in California, and friends in
>> Australia, but those facilities are closed due to the low Chinese
>> prices.
>>
>> If you thought the crashes of 2000/2008 were bad, imagine 25-35%
>> unemployment that would largely not be soaked up by newly opened US
>> facilities due to the cost of manufacturing here.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:44 AM, Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
>>> Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table
>>> Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered
>>> factories
>>> we haven't closed the door on cuba yet
>>> There is no shortage of slave labor nations, china knows this.
>>> When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do, its
>>> best
>>> to spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to do with this.
>>> It
>>> will hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end, we would be better,
>>> critical components will make their way back to silicon valley, the rest
>>> of
>>> the stuff will spread out.
>>>
>>> We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds 
>>> wrote:


 The short version of this, is that for the first time since April
 30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually
 realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact
 for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more
 conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we were
 at one time.

 The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to
 increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually a
 multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the past
 between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran would
 likely be quick to follow.

 None of this is any good.

 On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser
  wrote:
>
> I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North
> Korea
> what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? Will we
> not
> be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products made in
> China for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and if i
> can
> no longer get those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Rory Conaway]

Yea, that is a critical issue.  We need to get that mine open.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robert Andrews
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:23 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

Then we better get our act back together on rare-earth minerals..

On 09/04/2017 09:44 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
> Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
> Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table 
> Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered 
> factories we haven't closed the door on cuba yet There is no shortage 
> of slave labor nations, china knows this.
> When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do, its 
> best to spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to do 
> with this. It will hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end, we 
> would be better, critical components will make their way back to 
> silicon valley, the rest of the stuff will spread out.
> 
> We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds  > wrote:
> 
> The short version of this, is that for the first time since April
> 30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually
> realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact
> for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more
> conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we were
> at one time.
> 
> The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to
> increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually a
> multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the past
> between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran would
> likely be quick to follow.
> 
> None of this is any good.
> 
> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser
> mailto:lists.wavel...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>  > I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for
> North Korea
>  > what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China?
> Will we not
>  > be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products
> made in
>  > China for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and
> if i can
>  > no longer get those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...
> 
> 

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Robert Andrews]

That sounds like the "checkers defense"   I think this is more chess. 
Keep us worried about nukes in N. Korea and we won't worry about 
movements in the south china sea...


On 09/04/2017 10:21 AM, Rory Conaway wrote:

There is no way China let's North Korea affect their economy.  They will take 
Kim out long before that happens.

The only reason the Chinese Communist Party stays in power is because of its 
economy.  And that control only works if growth is at 7% or more.  If that 
growth stagnates or their economy gets worse, their power erodes quickly.

The Chinese like having North Korea as a buffer on their border.  They know if 
there is a war, South Korea will take it over and they lose that buffer.  And 
if there is a war, they are going to be blamed and the U.S. is going to be far 
more than just pissed off over this.  Given their 2 choices, I say they take 
Kim out before that happens.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:03 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...


We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.


No, that's folly.

It's economic M.A.D. It would crash both the US and Chinese economies... would 
also impact Taiwan / HK.

As far as tech stuff, we'd be fucked for a few years. China has 85-95% of the 
world's rare earth mining capacity used in things we use every day, from 
watches, phones, cars, drones, military equipment, medical equipment, things 
NASA depends on, etc. They have roughly 1/3rd of the world's rare earth 
deposits, but there is no production really spun up anywhere else. We have a 
place in California, and friends in Australia, but those facilities are closed 
due to the low Chinese prices.

If you thought the crashes of 2000/2008 were bad, imagine 25-35% unemployment 
that would largely not be soaked up by newly opened US facilities due to the 
cost of manufacturing here.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:44 AM, Steve Jones  wrote:

Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table
Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered
factories we haven't closed the door on cuba yet There is no shortage
of slave labor nations, china knows this.
When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do, its
best to spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to do
with this. It will hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end, we
would be better, critical components will make their way back to
silicon valley, the rest of the stuff will spread out.

We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.




On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:


The short version of this, is that for the first time since April
30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually
realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact
for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more
conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we were
at one time.

The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to
increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually a
multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the
past between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran
would likely be quick to follow.

None of this is any good.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser
 wrote:

I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for
North Korea what does this mean for wireless radios that are made
in China? Will we not be able to import them anymore? We rely quite
a bit on products made in China for our everyday lives. I use alot
of Ubiquiti products and if i can no longer get those my WISP
operations would be severely crippled...

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Josh Reynolds]

They may be counting on letting the stakes raise enough until they can
say "Hey, we'll take care of this NK problem for you if you concede
the SC sea..."

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 12:27 PM, Robert Andrews  wrote:
> That sounds like the "checkers defense"   I think this is more chess. Keep
> us worried about nukes in N. Korea and we won't worry about movements in the
> south china sea...
>
> On 09/04/2017 10:21 AM, Rory Conaway wrote:
>>
>> There is no way China let's North Korea affect their economy.  They will
>> take Kim out long before that happens.
>>
>> The only reason the Chinese Communist Party stays in power is because of
>> its economy.  And that control only works if growth is at 7% or more.  If
>> that growth stagnates or their economy gets worse, their power erodes
>> quickly.
>>
>> The Chinese like having North Korea as a buffer on their border.  They
>> know if there is a war, South Korea will take it over and they lose that
>> buffer.  And if there is a war, they are going to be blamed and the U.S. is
>> going to be far more than just pissed off over this.  Given their 2 choices,
>> I say they take Kim out before that happens.
>>
>> Rory
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds
>> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:03 AM
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...
>>
>>> We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.
>>
>>
>> No, that's folly.
>>
>> It's economic M.A.D. It would crash both the US and Chinese economies...
>> would also impact Taiwan / HK.
>>
>> As far as tech stuff, we'd be fucked for a few years. China has 85-95% of
>> the world's rare earth mining capacity used in things we use every day, from
>> watches, phones, cars, drones, military equipment, medical equipment, things
>> NASA depends on, etc. They have roughly 1/3rd of the world's rare earth
>> deposits, but there is no production really spun up anywhere else. We have a
>> place in California, and friends in Australia, but those facilities are
>> closed due to the low Chinese prices.
>>
>> If you thought the crashes of 2000/2008 were bad, imagine 25-35%
>> unemployment that would largely not be soaked up by newly opened US
>> facilities due to the cost of manufacturing here.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:44 AM, Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
>>> Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table
>>> Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered
>>> factories we haven't closed the door on cuba yet There is no shortage
>>> of slave labor nations, china knows this.
>>> When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do, its
>>> best to spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to do
>>> with this. It will hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end, we
>>> would be better, critical components will make their way back to
>>> silicon valley, the rest of the stuff will spread out.
>>>
>>> We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds 
>>> wrote:


 The short version of this, is that for the first time since April
 30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually
 realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact
 for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more
 conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we were
 at one time.

 The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to
 increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually a
 multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the
 past between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran
 would likely be quick to follow.

 None of this is any good.

 On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser
  wrote:
>
> I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for
> North Korea what does this mean for wireless radios that are made
> in China? Will we not be able to import them anymore? We rely quite
> a bit on products made in China for our everyday lives. I use alot
> of Ubiquiti products and if i can no longer get those my WISP
> operations would be severely crippled...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Rory Conaway]

Good point.  It has distracted us from their other expansionism. 

Rory

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robert Andrews
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:28 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

That sounds like the "checkers defense"   I think this is more chess. 
Keep us worried about nukes in N. Korea and we won't worry about movements in 
the south china sea...

On 09/04/2017 10:21 AM, Rory Conaway wrote:
> There is no way China let's North Korea affect their economy.  They will take 
> Kim out long before that happens.
> 
> The only reason the Chinese Communist Party stays in power is because of its 
> economy.  And that control only works if growth is at 7% or more.  If that 
> growth stagnates or their economy gets worse, their power erodes quickly.
> 
> The Chinese like having North Korea as a buffer on their border.  They know 
> if there is a war, South Korea will take it over and they lose that buffer.  
> And if there is a war, they are going to be blamed and the U.S. is going to 
> be far more than just pissed off over this.  Given their 2 choices, I say 
> they take Kim out before that happens.
> 
> Rory
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds
> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:03 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...
> 
>> We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.
> 
> No, that's folly.
> 
> It's economic M.A.D. It would crash both the US and Chinese economies... 
> would also impact Taiwan / HK.
> 
> As far as tech stuff, we'd be fucked for a few years. China has 85-95% of the 
> world's rare earth mining capacity used in things we use every day, from 
> watches, phones, cars, drones, military equipment, medical equipment, things 
> NASA depends on, etc. They have roughly 1/3rd of the world's rare earth 
> deposits, but there is no production really spun up anywhere else. We have a 
> place in California, and friends in Australia, but those facilities are 
> closed due to the low Chinese prices.
> 
> If you thought the crashes of 2000/2008 were bad, imagine 25-35% unemployment 
> that would largely not be soaked up by newly opened US facilities due to the 
> cost of manufacturing here.
> 
> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:44 AM, Steve Jones  
> wrote:
>> Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
>> Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table 
>> Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered 
>> factories we haven't closed the door on cuba yet There is no shortage 
>> of slave labor nations, china knows this.
>> When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do, 
>> its best to spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to 
>> do with this. It will hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end, 
>> we would be better, critical components will make their way back to 
>> silicon valley, the rest of the stuff will spread out.
>>
>> We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>>>
>>> The short version of this, is that for the first time since April 
>>> 30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually 
>>> realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact 
>>> for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more 
>>> conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we 
>>> were at one time.
>>>
>>> The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to 
>>> increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually 
>>> a multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the 
>>> past between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran 
>>> would likely be quick to follow.
>>>
>>> None of this is any good.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser 
>>>  wrote:
 I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for 
 North Korea what does this mean for wireless radios that are made 
 in China? Will we not be able to import them anymore? We rely quite 
 a bit on products made in China for our everyday lives. I use alot 
 of Ubiquiti products and if i can no longer get those my WISP 
 operations would be severely crippled...
>>
>>
> 

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Robert Andrews]

Inside of a mountain...  Far from fishing grounds.

On 09/04/2017 10:26 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote:

Anything that would affect the fishing economy there would be no-bueno.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 12:25 PM, Robert Andrews  wrote:

There is an amazing rare-earth deposit that was supposed to be opened up in
Alaska, but alas, it was deemed to valuable a nature resource..   It could
have been opened up carefully, but instead might end up being opened up in a
mad rush.  guess what would have been better for the environment..

On 09/04/2017 10:03 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote:


We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.



No, that's folly.

It's economic M.A.D. It would crash both the US and Chinese
economies... would also impact Taiwan / HK.

As far as tech stuff, we'd be fucked for a few years. China has 85-95%
of the world's rare earth mining capacity used in things we use every
day, from watches, phones, cars, drones, military equipment, medical
equipment, things NASA depends on, etc. They have roughly 1/3rd of the
world's rare earth deposits, but there is no production really spun up
anywhere else. We have a place in California, and friends in
Australia, but those facilities are closed due to the low Chinese
prices.

If you thought the crashes of 2000/2008 were bad, imagine 25-35%
unemployment that would largely not be soaked up by newly opened US
facilities due to the cost of manufacturing here.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:44 AM, Steve Jones 
wrote:


Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table
Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered
factories
we haven't closed the door on cuba yet
There is no shortage of slave labor nations, china knows this.
When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do, its
best
to spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to do with this.
It
will hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end, we would be better,
critical components will make their way back to silicon valley, the rest
of
the stuff will spread out.

We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.




On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds 
wrote:



The short version of this, is that for the first time since April
30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually
realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact
for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more
conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we were
at one time.

The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to
increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually a
multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the past
between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran would
likely be quick to follow.

None of this is any good.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser
 wrote:


I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North
Korea
what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? Will we
not
be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products made in
China for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and if i
can
no longer get those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Robert Andrews]

It's also Putin's game of choice...  We have a government that is so 
wrapped up in it's own corruption that we can't focus on keeping pace 
with our competitors...


On 09/04/2017 10:30 AM, Rory Conaway wrote:

Good point.  It has distracted us from their other expansionism.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robert Andrews
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:28 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

That sounds like the "checkers defense"   I think this is more chess.
Keep us worried about nukes in N. Korea and we won't worry about movements in 
the south china sea...

On 09/04/2017 10:21 AM, Rory Conaway wrote:

There is no way China let's North Korea affect their economy.  They will take 
Kim out long before that happens.

The only reason the Chinese Communist Party stays in power is because of its 
economy.  And that control only works if growth is at 7% or more.  If that 
growth stagnates or their economy gets worse, their power erodes quickly.

The Chinese like having North Korea as a buffer on their border.  They know if 
there is a war, South Korea will take it over and they lose that buffer.  And 
if there is a war, they are going to be blamed and the U.S. is going to be far 
more than just pissed off over this.  Given their 2 choices, I say they take 
Kim out before that happens.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:03 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...


We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.


No, that's folly.

It's economic M.A.D. It would crash both the US and Chinese economies... would 
also impact Taiwan / HK.

As far as tech stuff, we'd be fucked for a few years. China has 85-95% of the 
world's rare earth mining capacity used in things we use every day, from 
watches, phones, cars, drones, military equipment, medical equipment, things 
NASA depends on, etc. They have roughly 1/3rd of the world's rare earth 
deposits, but there is no production really spun up anywhere else. We have a 
place in California, and friends in Australia, but those facilities are closed 
due to the low Chinese prices.

If you thought the crashes of 2000/2008 were bad, imagine 25-35% unemployment 
that would largely not be soaked up by newly opened US facilities due to the 
cost of manufacturing here.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:44 AM, Steve Jones  wrote:

Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table
Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered
factories we haven't closed the door on cuba yet There is no shortage
of slave labor nations, china knows this.
When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do,
its best to spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to
do with this. It will hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end,
we would be better, critical components will make their way back to
silicon valley, the rest of the stuff will spread out.

We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this.




On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:


The short version of this, is that for the first time since April
30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually
realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact
for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more
conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we
were at one time.

The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to
increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually
a multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the
past between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran
would likely be quick to follow.

None of this is any good.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser
 wrote:

I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for
North Korea what does this mean for wireless radios that are made
in China? Will we not be able to import them anymore? We rely quite
a bit on products made in China for our everyday lives. I use alot
of Ubiquiti products and if i can no longer get those my WISP
operations would be severely crippled...

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Jon Langeler]

Trump is just the 'signature', the military is the planner. 

Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.


> On Sep 4, 2017, at 11:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
> 
> I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North Korea 
> what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? Will we not 
> be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products made in China 
> for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and if i can no 
> longer get those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[chuck]

I don’t think they are picking up what we are laying down

We will just lay it between the lines here and see if the light bulbs start to 
go on...

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 11:21 AM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

Any notice how Lentish I have been?  I pray for Divine Intervention.. maybe we 
should return FRB call that we received August 15have a nice day!

On Sep 4, 2017 11:00 AM,  wrote:

  Lets invoke Lent...

  From: Steve Jones 
  Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:44 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

  Foxconn is coming here (IPhone)
  Taiwan is hoping this goes down, their sovereignty is on the table
  Philippines and Malaysia used to produce, probably a lot of shuttered 
factories
  we haven't closed the door on cuba yet
  There is no shortage of slave labor nations, china knows this.
  When you rely on the spoils of slaver and servitude such as we do, its best 
to spread the risk around, and that's what we are poised to do with this. It 
will hurt in the wallet for a time, but in the end, we would be better, 
critical components will make their way back to silicon valley, the rest of the 
stuff will spread out. 

  We actually have a great deal of bargaining power in all this. 




  On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

The short version of this, is that for the first time since April
30th, 1975 (end of Vietnam War) the American people might actually
realize we are at war. They've largely been excluded from that fact
for almost 17 years now. This however, would be a much more
conventional battle. We are REALLY good at those, or at least we were
at one time.

The alternative is that North Korean continues their program to
increase their range, accuracy, explosive potential, and eventually a
multi-warhead (MIRV) situation. There have been some links in the past
between NK and Iran, so if NK ends up being successful, Iran would
likely be quick to follow.

None of this is any good.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Kurt Fankhauser

 wrote:
> I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North 
Korea
> what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? Will we 
not
> be able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products made in
> China for our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and if i can
> no longer get those my WISP operations would be severely crippled...

Re: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios...

[Mike Hammett]

Nothing is going to happen against China. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Kurt Fankhauser"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:56:34 AM 
Subject: [AFMUG] North Korea, China, sanctions, and wireless radios... 


I'm starting to get worried if the US tries to punish China for North Korea 
what does this mean for wireless radios that are made in China? Will we not be 
able to import them anymore? We rely quite a bit on products made in China for 
our everyday lives. I use alot of Ubiquiti products and if i can no longer get 
those my WISP operations would be severely crippled... 

Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

[Adam Moffett]

I've done it with other companies, but not Frontier.  What did you want 
to know?



-- Original Message --
From: "Chris Fabien" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 9/4/2017 10:54:46 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

Mike do you have any info you can share about what the process and 
costs involved in this would be?


On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

Sent offlist.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
 
 
 


Midwest Internet Exchange 
 
 


The Brothers WISP 





From: "timreichhart" >

To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 9:11:21 AM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

Mike
if you can send it to me also that would be great.

Tim






-Original Message-
From: "Adam Moffett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Date: 09/03/17 09:07
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

Thank you Mike!


-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Hammett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 9/2/2017 9:46:29 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact


Sent offlist.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
 
 
 


Midwest Internet Exchange 
 
 


The Brothers WISP 





From: "Adam Moffett" 
To:af@afmug.com
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 3:21:15 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

Maybe a long shot, but does anyone here have a contact at Frontier 
Telephone for pole attachment or joint use of plant?


Thanks,
Adam

Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

[Chris Fabien]

Cost, approval process, can you do the work yourself, do you have to be a
CLEC?

On Sep 4, 2017 4:05 PM, "Adam Moffett"  wrote:

> I've done it with other companies, but not Frontier.  What did you want to
> know?
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Chris Fabien" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 9/4/2017 10:54:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact
>
> Mike do you have any info you can share about what the process and costs
> involved in this would be?
>
> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>> Sent offlist.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
>> *From: *"timreichhart" 
>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>> *Sent: *Monday, September 4, 2017 9:11:21 AM
>>
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact
>>
>> Mike
>> if you can send it to me also that would be great.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -Original Message-
>> From: "Adam Moffett" 
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Date: 09/03/17 09:07
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact
>>
>> Thank you Mike!
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Mike Hammett" 
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: 9/2/2017 9:46:29 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact
>>
>> Sent offlist.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
>> *From:* "Adam Moffett" 
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Sent:* Friday, September 1, 2017 3:21:15 PM
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact
>>
>> Maybe a long shot, but does anyone here have a contact at Frontier
>> Telephone for pole attachment or joint use of plant?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

[AFMUG] OT: Home Automation etc

[Paul Stewart]

Just a shameless plug for my new blog I started back up a few weeks back …. It 
touches on home automation (which I know in previous discussions many folks on 
here find interesting) and a bit of home improvement stuff etc….

https://paulstewart.org if you’re interested :)

Paul

Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

[Chuck McCown]

Generally you don’t have to be a CLEC for anything.  You can do most of the 
work yourself.  The thing that gets you is the “make ready” stuff.  You can be 
on the hook for total pole replacement costs of your plant overloads the pole.  

From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2017 3:09 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

Cost, approval process, can you do the work yourself, do you have to be a CLEC?

On Sep 4, 2017 4:05 PM, "Adam Moffett"  wrote:

  I've done it with other companies, but not Frontier.  What did you want to 
know?


  -- Original Message --
  From: "Chris Fabien" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: 9/4/2017 10:54:46 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

Mike do you have any info you can share about what the process and costs 
involved in this would be? 

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

  Sent offlist.




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "timreichhart" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 9:11:21 AM 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact


  Mike
  if you can send it to me also that would be great.

  Tim








-Original Message-
From: "Adam Moffett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Date: 09/03/17 09:07
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact


Thank you Mike!


-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Hammett" 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 9/2/2017 9:46:29 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

  Sent offlist.




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Adam Moffett" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 3:21:15 PM
  Subject: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

  Maybe a long shot, but does anyone here have a contact at Frontier 
Telephone for pole attachment or joint use of plant? 

  Thanks,
  Adam

Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

[Adam Moffett]

What he said.

Getting a pole attachment contract doesn't cost much.  Verizon had an 
application fee and some pretty specific insurance and bonding 
requirements.  Not free, but nothing crazy.


The hardest part so far has been getting in touch with the correct 
person.  You ask around about "pole attachment" or "Joint use of plant" 
and keep asking until somebody knows what you're talking about.


Once you have the contract you can apply to attach to specific poles.  
You'll do a walk through (or drive through) with the pole owners and 
look for problems.  Yes make ready can be nuts.  So far the typical 
problem for me has been the pole being too short, so there's not enough 
room for me to go above the phone line while also being 40" from the 
transformer.  Our power company set the price at $5000 to replace a pole 
and re-attach their lines and equipment.  Typically that too-short pole 
was old and had an old transformer and then they'll say, oh shucks we 
have to replace the transformer too.  Now it's $10-15k.


Oh you'll also pay rent for poles.  It'll be peanuts on small projects, 
but if you get onto 1,000 poles it'll turn into real money.



-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 9/4/2017 7:40:13 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

Generally you don’t have to be a CLEC for anything.  You can do most of 
the work yourself.  The thing that gets you is the “make ready” stuff.  
You can be on the hook for total pole replacement costs of your plant 
overloads the pole.


From:Chris Fabien
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2017 3:09 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

Cost, approval process, can you do the work yourself, do you have to be 
a CLEC?


On Sep 4, 2017 4:05 PM, "Adam Moffett"  wrote:
I've done it with other companies, but not Frontier.  What did you 
want to know?



-- Original Message --
From: "Chris Fabien" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 9/4/2017 10:54:46 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

Mike do you have any info you can share about what the process and 
costs involved in this would be?


On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Mike Hammett  
wrote:

Sent offlist.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
 
 
 


Midwest Internet Exchange 
 
 


The Brothers WISP 





From: "timreichhart" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 9:11:21 AM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

Mike
if you can send it to me also that would be great.

Tim






-Original Message-
From: "Adam Moffett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Date: 09/03/17 09:07
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

Thank you Mike!


-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Hammett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 9/2/2017 9:46:29 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact


Sent offlist.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
 
 
 


Midwest Internet Exchange 
 
 


The Brothers WISP 





From: "Adam Moffett" 
To:af@afmug.com
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 3:21:15 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] Frontier Pole Attachment contact

Maybe a long shot, but does anyone here have a contact at Frontier 
Telephone for pole attachment or joint use of plant?


Thanks,
Adam

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Hurricane Irma

[Brian Webster]

I was part of the group who went down to help Mac after Katrina. I think we 
were about a week or two after by the time we got there. There was plenty to do 
even then. Rick Harnish, John Scrivner, Jim Patient and others were there as 
well. 

 

As much as everyone wants to help, sometimes rushing in to a stricken area you 
become more of a burden. The basic needs for food, shelter and such are scarce 
and need to be utilized for those who live there, any excess is usually taken 
up by the first responding agencies from out of the area such as FEMA. When I 
went and brought some others, I brought my camper which housed up to 8 people. 
Just needed a place to park. Simple things like being able to get fuel can be a 
huge challenge.

 

Being the president of WECAT we have seen the WISP industry mature and do a 
great job at their own disaster planning and recovery. The last 4 major events 
or so, we have only had contact with one or two WISP’s who might have needed 
help, and after a day or two when they had time to assess their situation, they 
were able to take care of things on their own or with help from a neighboring 
WISP. That really took a lot of stress off logistics of bringing people in from 
outside the area.

 

We understand the desire for everyone to want to help and most WISP’s cringe at 
the thought of having to deal with an event like that, so they try to help. 

 

As Faisal said, it’s the medium to long term recovery where a person or company 
can make a difference. Reaching out to fellow WISP’s after the spotlight has 
been turned off by the media is probably one of the best things we can do to 
help each other.

 

Checking up on Texas WISP’s is probably more helpful now than Irma. The pucker 
factor is high on Irma but until she makes landfall and causes damage, any 
efforts prior to that other than taking inventory of what you can do personally 
with resources, we just have to wait and see how things pan out.

 

Thank You,

Brian Webster

214 Eggleston Hill Rd.

Cooperstown, NY 13326

(607) 643-4055 Office

(607) 435-3988 Mobile

(208) 692-1898 Fax
Skype: Radiowebst

www.wirelessmapping.com

www.Broadband-Mapping.com

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 2:29 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: Hurricane Irma

 

Fair point.

 

In the event of the disaster.. there are obviously three stages..

 

1) While the 'story' is breaking e.g. the event is going on...

 This is typically best handled by local folks neighbors etc.. 

 

2)  Right after the storm... this is when lots of folks, immediately start 
doing stuff, due to the high emotional feelings.

Depending on the need, (e.g. Houston, all the folks with Boats etc) and any 
or all other aspects which may not be visible ...

 

3)  Med to long term recovery this is probably the hardest and longer 
needs.. typically the spot light is off, and the full nature of the disaster 
(domino affect starts to be realized)...

 

There is plenty of room to help, sometimes it is with Money, other times it is 
with your time and compassion.. and on other occasions it is simply the 
additional manpower ...

 

Being far away, it is nice to see the feeling of compassion, but do keep an eye 
and ear open with the smaller groups, Church Groups, Local Charitable 
Foundations, and other Organizations (smaller the better) and volunteer with 
what you can.. these folks tend to make great impact on individual's lives, 
while they may not be able to help everyone..

 

One more thing to keep in mind. it is not uncommon to have a tremendous 
amount of waste during the the 1st and 2nd phase ...

 

This is what I can share with you from our past experience.

 

I don't know if MacDearman is on this list or any of the other lists, it would 
be very interesting to hear his experience and insights. on this topic too.

 

Regards.

 

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net

 

  _  

From: "Brett A Mansfield" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 2:08:36 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: Hurricane Irma

I’m actually in Utah and will not be directly affected by it at all. I just 
feel bad for those who are and they are certainly in my prayers. 

I would like to help anyone in any area affected by these hurricanes, but I 
don’t know how I could other than flying out and being extra hands. 

Thank you,

Brett A Mansfield


On Sep 3, 2017, at 11:40 AM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists  wrote:

The most reliable tracks have it hitting well north of you...but they are all 
really guessing.

Jeff Broadwick

ConVergence Technologies, Inc.

312-205-2519 Office

574-220-7826 Cell

jbroadw...@converge-tech.com


On Sep 3, 2017, at 1:11 PM, Faisal Imtiaz  wrote:

Hi Brett,

We are all keeping any eye on Irma's developing track as well as praying that 
e

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Hurricane Irma

[George Skorup]

I'm sure Gino and Mike in PR and VI are prepping. Stay safe down there guys!

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Hurricane Irma

[Jaime Solorza]

Prayers headed their way..

On Sep 4, 2017 9:03 PM, "George Skorup"  wrote:

> I'm sure Gino and Mike in PR and VI are prepping. Stay safe down there
> guys!
>