Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs
AF and iProvo are now privately-owned networks, so my experience is over a decade old and deprecated. I both cases I inherited those segments from ISP purchases and either sold them off immediately, or shortly decided to table it as is and concentrate on other, way more profitable networks. But the gist of it was, that a sham provider would join, even with more stringent requirements imposed over time, and would drive pricing down to near zero profit per customer for any ISP. Then customers would all flock to the sham provider for the lowest price (also a Utah thing) and experience huge performance issues and trash talk the entire system. That wasn't every well controlled, and it most often turned into a finger pointing game of who is responsible, the ISP 'sham' provider, or the iProvo/AF City network itself providing the main services. The network itself in both cases was built with crap hardware with crap design and using impossible numbers so that coverage was only a fraction of what was promised. Capacity and growth pains plagued the networks where it did provide service, and where it didn't, residents were furious that they were paying (bond, whatever) without receiving any benefit. Utoptia, same thing generally, over time, but MUCH larger buy in and numbers (also WAY off reality). Except they did some fancy company restructuring to make it look like a success and build a better picture/image, but that was only the part they restructured from what I can tell. In my opinion, in all cases here in Utah that I've witnessed, the 'spreadsheet' used to 'sell' the plan and the actual numbers and results based on those plan(s), were so far off, that the person(s) responsible should be considered criminal. But that's government. Take a handful of people who don't know what they are doing, and give them unreasonable amounts of money and little accountability, and you get predators that will feed off of that. In this case some of the employees and contractors did most of the damage colluding with one another and walking away with tons of profit, leaving chaos in their wake. Also happens with private ventures where you get people who don't know what they are doing. Vivint is an example. Tons of money, lots of smart people who are actually industry idiots, and a few who prey on them, make tons of money, then move on to the next prey, lol! -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 11:01 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs That's interesting. Can you share more details about being a service provider on the iProvo and AF networks? In what way we're they substandard? Jared > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 > From: "Sterling Jacobson" > To: "af@afmug.com" > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > I agree with that. > > The numbers never added up. iProvo never added up, Utopia never added up, > Amercian Fork system numbers never made any sense. > > I was a network provider on iProvo and AF networks for a while and sold them > off since they were always substandard and profit was driven to minimum. > > > -Original Message- > From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com > Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 10:46 AM > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > Here is an editorial in the Deseret News today. It is just an opinion. > > And I know Roger has been a reader of this list (Roger runs UTOPIA). > > But I have always been against municipal ISPs on principle. Some things the > government is good at, some things they are not good at. > > Roads and Streets == OK > Police and Fire == OK > EMS = OK but there are private providers that are OK too. > Water and Sewer = OK but there are many private systems Power and Gas = Meh > - I work in a city that has sold off their power and gas to private because > it was not a revenue center and they had lots of power distribution problems. > > Telecommunications != OK > > They almost always seem to be problematic. And they compete with all of you > (us) folks that can do a better job. (Sorry Roger, but that is my > opinion). > > > BY BILLY HESTERMAN > > FOR THE DESERET NEWS > > A longstanding principle of the Utah Taxpayers Association is if a service > can be found in the yellow pages, then government shouldn’t be providing it. > We have seen far too many times where government attempts to compete with the > private sector and ends up wasting taxpayer money. One prime example of this > is the failed UTOPIA boondoggle that continues to plague the 11 cities that > created the enti
Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs
Not enough choice in rate plans in the google section. And they did not cover everyone. -Original Message- From: fiber...@mail.com Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 1:59 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs Sure, but why/how/which part is substandard? Jared Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 From: "Chuck McCown" To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs iProvo sold out (gave the system away) to Google. Still substandard. -Original Message- From: fiber...@mail.com Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 11:01 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs That's interesting. Can you share more details about being a service provider on the iProvo and AF networks? In what way we're they substandard? Jared > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 > From: "Sterling Jacobson" > To: "af@afmug.com" > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > I agree with that. > > The numbers never added up. iProvo never added up, Utopia never added > up, > Amercian Fork system numbers never made any sense. > > I was a network provider on iProvo and AF networks for a while and sold > them off since they were always substandard and profit was driven to > minimum. > > > -Original Message- > From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com > Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 10:46 AM > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > Here is an editorial in the Deseret News today. It is just an opinion. > > And I know Roger has been a reader of this list (Roger runs UTOPIA). > > But I have always been against municipal ISPs on principle. Some things > the government is good at, some things they are not good at. > > Roads and Streets == OK > Police and Fire == OK > EMS = OK but there are private providers that are OK too. > Water and Sewer = OK but there are many private systems Power and Gas = > Meh - I work in a city that has sold off their power and gas to > private > because it was not a revenue center and they had lots of power > distribution problems. > > Telecommunications != OK > > They almost always seem to be problematic. And they compete with all of > you > (us) folks that can do a better job. (Sorry Roger, but that is my > opinion). > > > BY BILLY HESTERMAN > > FOR THE DESERET NEWS > > A longstanding principle of the Utah Taxpayers Association is if a > service > can be found in the yellow pages, then government shouldn’t be providing > it. > We have seen far too many times where government attempts to compete > with > the private sector and ends up wasting taxpayer money. One prime example > of this is the failed UTOPIA boondoggle that continues to plague the 11 > cities that created the entity. > > On Aug. 14, the Utah Infrastructure Agency, which was created in 2011 to > give UTOPIA more borrowing capacity, will vote on taking out a $13 > million > bond to further build out the UTOPIA network in hopes of making the > whole > effort profitable. The vote will likely pass but the effort to make > UTOPIA > and UIA a success for taxpayers will never be realized. > > This attempt to continue to send money after a bad idea has to stop. > > The private sector is already providing the same service that can be > obtained through UTOPIA and it is past time that the local governments > that created this mess find a way out. > > Recently, the University of Pennsylvania released a study that examined > 20 > municipally owned fiber networks from across the nation; UTOPIA was > included in the study. > > The report found that a majority of these networks struggle to recover > the > costs that were incurred to build them. It went on to show that of the > 20 > projects, only nine have had a positive revenue stream but that of those > nine, five are generating returns so small that it would take more than > 100 years for the project costs to be recovered. Only two of the 20 > networks are expected to earn enough to cover their project costs during > the useful life of the networks. > > The Penn report went on to state that these government-owned ventures > struggle to ever make a profit and put taxpayers in danger of seeing > their > local government increase debt, lose bond rating status and elected > officials becoming distracted from other important issues because they > are > solely focused on the government’s fiber business. The report found that > if UTOPIA continues in its current state, that the project will likely > never turn a profit. It observed in a five-year span from 2010-2014 that > the network only obtained 11,000 subscribe
Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs
Sure, but why/how/which part is substandard? Jared > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 > From: "Chuck McCown" > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > iProvo sold out (gave the system away) to Google. Still substandard. > > -Original Message- > From: fiber...@mail.com > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 11:01 PM > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > That's interesting. Can you share more details about being a service > provider on the iProvo and AF networks? In what way we're they substandard? > > Jared > > > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 > > From: "Sterling Jacobson" > > To: "af@afmug.com" > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > > > I agree with that. > > > > The numbers never added up. iProvo never added up, Utopia never added up, > > Amercian Fork system numbers never made any sense. > > > > I was a network provider on iProvo and AF networks for a while and sold > > them off since they were always substandard and profit was driven to > > minimum. > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com > > Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 10:46 AM > > To: af@afmug.com > > Subject: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > > > Here is an editorial in the Deseret News today. It is just an opinion. > > > > And I know Roger has been a reader of this list (Roger runs UTOPIA). > > > > But I have always been against municipal ISPs on principle. Some things > > the government is good at, some things they are not good at. > > > > Roads and Streets == OK > > Police and Fire == OK > > EMS = OK but there are private providers that are OK too. > > Water and Sewer = OK but there are many private systems Power and Gas = > > Meh - I work in a city that has sold off their power and gas to private > > because it was not a revenue center and they had lots of power > > distribution problems. > > > > Telecommunications != OK > > > > They almost always seem to be problematic. And they compete with all of > > you > > (us) folks that can do a better job. (Sorry Roger, but that is my > > opinion). > > > > > > BY BILLY HESTERMAN > > > > FOR THE DESERET NEWS > > > > A longstanding principle of the Utah Taxpayers Association is if a service > > can be found in the yellow pages, then government shouldn’t be providing > > it. > > We have seen far too many times where government attempts to compete with > > the private sector and ends up wasting taxpayer money. One prime example > > of this is the failed UTOPIA boondoggle that continues to plague the 11 > > cities that created the entity. > > > > On Aug. 14, the Utah Infrastructure Agency, which was created in 2011 to > > give UTOPIA more borrowing capacity, will vote on taking out a $13 million > > bond to further build out the UTOPIA network in hopes of making the whole > > effort profitable. The vote will likely pass but the effort to make UTOPIA > > and UIA a success for taxpayers will never be realized. > > > > This attempt to continue to send money after a bad idea has to stop. > > > > The private sector is already providing the same service that can be > > obtained through UTOPIA and it is past time that the local governments > > that created this mess find a way out. > > > > Recently, the University of Pennsylvania released a study that examined 20 > > municipally owned fiber networks from across the nation; UTOPIA was > > included in the study. > > > > The report found that a majority of these networks struggle to recover the > > costs that were incurred to build them. It went on to show that of the 20 > > projects, only nine have had a positive revenue stream but that of those > > nine, five are generating returns so small that it would take more than > > 100 years for the project costs to be recovered. Only two of the 20 > > networks are expected to earn enough to cover their project costs during > > the useful life of the networks. > > > > The Penn report went on to state that these government-owned ventures > > struggle to ever make a profit and put taxpayers in danger of seeing their > > local government increase debt, lose bond rating status and elected > > officials becoming distracted from other important issues because they are > > solely focused on the government’s fiber business. The report
Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs
True, but it would be nice to have the real, up to date data and projections on all the projects. Jared > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 > From: "Chuck McCown" > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > Well in the case of UTOPIA, it has been running a long time. And the > numbers are regularly published out here. It is a financial mess for > certain. Not much wiggle room in the facts of the situation. > > -Original Message- > From: fiber...@mail.com > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 1:50 PM > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > I've also read rebuttals and critiques of that same report, all without > adding too much clarity to the issue. For sure the report has some > shortfalls and errors, but the whole thing is turning more or less into a he > said, she said mess. It'd be real nice to have a proper long term analysis > using up to date hard data from an independent source. > > Jared > > > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 > > From: "Layne Sisk" > > To: "af@afmug.com" > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > > > Here is the study: > > https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/6611-report-municipal-fiber-in-the-united-states-an > > > > Layne Sisk > > ServerPlus > > 801.426.8283, ext 102 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown > > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 10:17 AM > > To: af@afmug.com > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > > > iProvo sold out (gave the system away) to Google. Still substandard. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: fiber...@mail.com > > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 11:01 PM > > To: af@afmug.com > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > > > That's interesting. Can you share more details about being a service > > provider on the iProvo and AF networks? In what way we're they > > substandard? > > > > Jared > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 > > > From: "Sterling Jacobson" > > > To: "af@afmug.com" > > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > > > > > I agree with that. > > > > > > The numbers never added up. iProvo never added up, Utopia never added > > > up, Amercian Fork system numbers never made any sense. > > > > > > I was a network provider on iProvo and AF networks for a while and > > > sold them off since they were always substandard and profit was driven > > > to minimum. > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com > > > Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 10:46 AM > > > To: af@afmug.com > > > Subject: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > > > > > Here is an editorial in the Deseret News today. It is just an opinion. > > > > > > And I know Roger has been a reader of this list (Roger runs UTOPIA). > > > > > > But I have always been against municipal ISPs on principle. Some > > > things the government is good at, some things they are not good at. > > > > > > Roads and Streets == OK > > > Police and Fire == OK > > > EMS = OK but there are private providers that are OK too. > > > Water and Sewer = OK but there are many private systems Power and Gas > > > = Meh - I work in a city that has sold off their power and gas to > > > private because it was not a revenue center and they had lots of power > > > distribution problems. > > > > > > Telecommunications != OK > > > > > > They almost always seem to be problematic. And they compete with all > > > of you > > > (us) folks that can do a better job. (Sorry Roger, but that is my > > > opinion). > > > > > > > > > BY BILLY HESTERMAN > > > > > > FOR THE DESERET NEWS > > > > > > A longstanding principle of the Utah Taxpayers Association is if a > > > service can be found in the yellow pages, then government shouldn’t be > > > providing it. > > > We have seen far too many times where government attempts to compete > > > with the private sector and ends up wasting taxpayer money. One prime > > > example of this is the failed UTOPIA boondoggle that continues to > > > plague the 11 citi
Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs
Well in the case of UTOPIA, it has been running a long time. And the numbers are regularly published out here. It is a financial mess for certain. Not much wiggle room in the facts of the situation. -Original Message- From: fiber...@mail.com Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 1:50 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs I've also read rebuttals and critiques of that same report, all without adding too much clarity to the issue. For sure the report has some shortfalls and errors, but the whole thing is turning more or less into a he said, she said mess. It'd be real nice to have a proper long term analysis using up to date hard data from an independent source. Jared Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 From: "Layne Sisk" To: "af@afmug.com" Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs Here is the study: https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/6611-report-municipal-fiber-in-the-united-states-an Layne Sisk ServerPlus 801.426.8283, ext 102 -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 10:17 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs iProvo sold out (gave the system away) to Google. Still substandard. -Original Message- From: fiber...@mail.com Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 11:01 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs That's interesting. Can you share more details about being a service provider on the iProvo and AF networks? In what way we're they substandard? Jared > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 > From: "Sterling Jacobson" > To: "af@afmug.com" > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > I agree with that. > > The numbers never added up. iProvo never added up, Utopia never added > up, Amercian Fork system numbers never made any sense. > > I was a network provider on iProvo and AF networks for a while and > sold them off since they were always substandard and profit was driven > to minimum. > > > -Original Message- > From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com > Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 10:46 AM > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > Here is an editorial in the Deseret News today. It is just an opinion. > > And I know Roger has been a reader of this list (Roger runs UTOPIA). > > But I have always been against municipal ISPs on principle. Some > things the government is good at, some things they are not good at. > > Roads and Streets == OK > Police and Fire == OK > EMS = OK but there are private providers that are OK too. > Water and Sewer = OK but there are many private systems Power and Gas > = Meh - I work in a city that has sold off their power and gas to > private because it was not a revenue center and they had lots of power > distribution problems. > > Telecommunications != OK > > They almost always seem to be problematic. And they compete with all > of you > (us) folks that can do a better job. (Sorry Roger, but that is my > opinion). > > > BY BILLY HESTERMAN > > FOR THE DESERET NEWS > > A longstanding principle of the Utah Taxpayers Association is if a > service can be found in the yellow pages, then government shouldn’t be > providing it. > We have seen far too many times where government attempts to compete > with the private sector and ends up wasting taxpayer money. One prime > example of this is the failed UTOPIA boondoggle that continues to > plague the 11 cities that created the entity. > > On Aug. 14, the Utah Infrastructure Agency, which was created in 2011 > to give UTOPIA more borrowing capacity, will vote on taking out a $13 > million bond to further build out the UTOPIA network in hopes of > making the whole effort profitable. The vote will likely pass but the > effort to make UTOPIA and UIA a success for taxpayers will never be > realized. > > This attempt to continue to send money after a bad idea has to stop. > > The private sector is already providing the same service that can be > obtained through UTOPIA and it is past time that the local governments > that created this mess find a way out. > > Recently, the University of Pennsylvania released a study that > examined 20 municipally owned fiber networks from across the nation; > UTOPIA was included in the study. > > The report found that a majority of these networks struggle to recover > the costs that were incurred to build them. It went on to show that of > the 20 projects, only nine have had a positive revenue stream but that > of those nine, five are generating returns so small that it would take > more than > 100 years for the project costs to be recovered. O
Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs
I've also read rebuttals and critiques of that same report, all without adding too much clarity to the issue. For sure the report has some shortfalls and errors, but the whole thing is turning more or less into a he said, she said mess. It'd be real nice to have a proper long term analysis using up to date hard data from an independent source. Jared > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 > From: "Layne Sisk" > To: "af@afmug.com" > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > Here is the study: > https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/6611-report-municipal-fiber-in-the-united-states-an > > > Layne Sisk > ServerPlus > 801.426.8283, ext 102 > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 10:17 AM > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > iProvo sold out (gave the system away) to Google. Still substandard. > > -Original Message----- > From: fiber...@mail.com > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 11:01 PM > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > That's interesting. Can you share more details about being a service provider > on the iProvo and AF networks? In what way we're they substandard? > > Jared > > > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 > > From: "Sterling Jacobson" > > To: "af@afmug.com" > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > > > I agree with that. > > > > The numbers never added up. iProvo never added up, Utopia never added > > up, Amercian Fork system numbers never made any sense. > > > > I was a network provider on iProvo and AF networks for a while and > > sold them off since they were always substandard and profit was driven > > to minimum. > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com > > Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 10:46 AM > > To: af@afmug.com > > Subject: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > > > Here is an editorial in the Deseret News today. It is just an opinion. > > > > And I know Roger has been a reader of this list (Roger runs UTOPIA). > > > > But I have always been against municipal ISPs on principle. Some > > things the government is good at, some things they are not good at. > > > > Roads and Streets == OK > > Police and Fire == OK > > EMS = OK but there are private providers that are OK too. > > Water and Sewer = OK but there are many private systems Power and Gas > > = Meh - I work in a city that has sold off their power and gas to > > private because it was not a revenue center and they had lots of power > > distribution problems. > > > > Telecommunications != OK > > > > They almost always seem to be problematic. And they compete with all > > of you > > (us) folks that can do a better job. (Sorry Roger, but that is my > > opinion). > > > > > > BY BILLY HESTERMAN > > > > FOR THE DESERET NEWS > > > > A longstanding principle of the Utah Taxpayers Association is if a > > service can be found in the yellow pages, then government shouldn’t be > > providing it. > > We have seen far too many times where government attempts to compete > > with the private sector and ends up wasting taxpayer money. One prime > > example of this is the failed UTOPIA boondoggle that continues to > > plague the 11 cities that created the entity. > > > > On Aug. 14, the Utah Infrastructure Agency, which was created in 2011 > > to give UTOPIA more borrowing capacity, will vote on taking out a $13 > > million bond to further build out the UTOPIA network in hopes of > > making the whole effort profitable. The vote will likely pass but the > > effort to make UTOPIA and UIA a success for taxpayers will never be > > realized. > > > > This attempt to continue to send money after a bad idea has to stop. > > > > The private sector is already providing the same service that can be > > obtained through UTOPIA and it is past time that the local governments > > that created this mess find a way out. > > > > Recently, the University of Pennsylvania released a study that > > examined 20 municipally owned fiber networks from across the nation; > > UTOPIA was included in the study. > > > > The report found that a majority of these networks struggle to recover > > the costs that were incurred to build them. It went on to s
Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs
Here is the study: https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/6611-report-municipal-fiber-in-the-united-states-an Layne Sisk ServerPlus 801.426.8283, ext 102 -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 10:17 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs iProvo sold out (gave the system away) to Google. Still substandard. -Original Message- From: fiber...@mail.com Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 11:01 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs That's interesting. Can you share more details about being a service provider on the iProvo and AF networks? In what way we're they substandard? Jared > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 > From: "Sterling Jacobson" > To: "af@afmug.com" > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > I agree with that. > > The numbers never added up. iProvo never added up, Utopia never added > up, Amercian Fork system numbers never made any sense. > > I was a network provider on iProvo and AF networks for a while and > sold them off since they were always substandard and profit was driven > to minimum. > > > -Original Message- > From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com > Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 10:46 AM > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > Here is an editorial in the Deseret News today. It is just an opinion. > > And I know Roger has been a reader of this list (Roger runs UTOPIA). > > But I have always been against municipal ISPs on principle. Some > things the government is good at, some things they are not good at. > > Roads and Streets == OK > Police and Fire == OK > EMS = OK but there are private providers that are OK too. > Water and Sewer = OK but there are many private systems Power and Gas > = Meh - I work in a city that has sold off their power and gas to > private because it was not a revenue center and they had lots of power > distribution problems. > > Telecommunications != OK > > They almost always seem to be problematic. And they compete with all > of you > (us) folks that can do a better job. (Sorry Roger, but that is my > opinion). > > > BY BILLY HESTERMAN > > FOR THE DESERET NEWS > > A longstanding principle of the Utah Taxpayers Association is if a > service can be found in the yellow pages, then government shouldn’t be > providing it. > We have seen far too many times where government attempts to compete > with the private sector and ends up wasting taxpayer money. One prime > example of this is the failed UTOPIA boondoggle that continues to > plague the 11 cities that created the entity. > > On Aug. 14, the Utah Infrastructure Agency, which was created in 2011 > to give UTOPIA more borrowing capacity, will vote on taking out a $13 > million bond to further build out the UTOPIA network in hopes of > making the whole effort profitable. The vote will likely pass but the > effort to make UTOPIA and UIA a success for taxpayers will never be realized. > > This attempt to continue to send money after a bad idea has to stop. > > The private sector is already providing the same service that can be > obtained through UTOPIA and it is past time that the local governments > that created this mess find a way out. > > Recently, the University of Pennsylvania released a study that > examined 20 municipally owned fiber networks from across the nation; > UTOPIA was included in the study. > > The report found that a majority of these networks struggle to recover > the costs that were incurred to build them. It went on to show that of > the 20 projects, only nine have had a positive revenue stream but that > of those nine, five are generating returns so small that it would take > more than > 100 years for the project costs to be recovered. Only two of the 20 > networks are expected to earn enough to cover their project costs > during the useful life of the networks. > > The Penn report went on to state that these government-owned ventures > struggle to ever make a profit and put taxpayers in danger of seeing > their local government increase debt, lose bond rating status and > elected officials becoming distracted from other important issues > because they are solely focused on the government’s fiber business. > The report found that if UTOPIA continues in its current state, that > the project will likely never turn a profit. It observed in a > five-year span from 2010-2014 that the network only obtained 11,000 > subscribers and that with a low subscription take the network was > realizing less than $30 in revenue per
Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs
iProvo sold out (gave the system away) to Google. Still substandard. -Original Message- From: fiber...@mail.com Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 11:01 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs That's interesting. Can you share more details about being a service provider on the iProvo and AF networks? In what way we're they substandard? Jared Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 From: "Sterling Jacobson" To: "af@afmug.com" Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs I agree with that. The numbers never added up. iProvo never added up, Utopia never added up, Amercian Fork system numbers never made any sense. I was a network provider on iProvo and AF networks for a while and sold them off since they were always substandard and profit was driven to minimum. -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 10:46 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs Here is an editorial in the Deseret News today. It is just an opinion. And I know Roger has been a reader of this list (Roger runs UTOPIA). But I have always been against municipal ISPs on principle. Some things the government is good at, some things they are not good at. Roads and Streets == OK Police and Fire == OK EMS = OK but there are private providers that are OK too. Water and Sewer = OK but there are many private systems Power and Gas = Meh - I work in a city that has sold off their power and gas to private because it was not a revenue center and they had lots of power distribution problems. Telecommunications != OK They almost always seem to be problematic. And they compete with all of you (us) folks that can do a better job. (Sorry Roger, but that is my opinion). BY BILLY HESTERMAN FOR THE DESERET NEWS A longstanding principle of the Utah Taxpayers Association is if a service can be found in the yellow pages, then government shouldn’t be providing it. We have seen far too many times where government attempts to compete with the private sector and ends up wasting taxpayer money. One prime example of this is the failed UTOPIA boondoggle that continues to plague the 11 cities that created the entity. On Aug. 14, the Utah Infrastructure Agency, which was created in 2011 to give UTOPIA more borrowing capacity, will vote on taking out a $13 million bond to further build out the UTOPIA network in hopes of making the whole effort profitable. The vote will likely pass but the effort to make UTOPIA and UIA a success for taxpayers will never be realized. This attempt to continue to send money after a bad idea has to stop. The private sector is already providing the same service that can be obtained through UTOPIA and it is past time that the local governments that created this mess find a way out. Recently, the University of Pennsylvania released a study that examined 20 municipally owned fiber networks from across the nation; UTOPIA was included in the study. The report found that a majority of these networks struggle to recover the costs that were incurred to build them. It went on to show that of the 20 projects, only nine have had a positive revenue stream but that of those nine, five are generating returns so small that it would take more than 100 years for the project costs to be recovered. Only two of the 20 networks are expected to earn enough to cover their project costs during the useful life of the networks. The Penn report went on to state that these government-owned ventures struggle to ever make a profit and put taxpayers in danger of seeing their local government increase debt, lose bond rating status and elected officials becoming distracted from other important issues because they are solely focused on the government’s fiber business. The report found that if UTOPIA continues in its current state, that the project will likely never turn a profit. It observed in a five-year span from 2010-2014 that the network only obtained 11,000 subscribers and that with a low subscription take the network was realizing less than $30 in revenue per household in the cities that make up UTOPIA. That is well below the $446 per household benchmark achieved by other projects that the report looked at. I am often asked why the Utah Taxpayers Association cares so deeply about the UTOPIA issue. One statement from the Penn report sums up why we have taken the position we have as the report states, “Many cities managing these projects have faced defaults, reductions in bond ratings, and ongoing liability, not to mention the toll that troubled municipal broadband ventures can take on city leaders in terms of personal turmoil and distraction from other matters important to citizens. City leaders should carefully assess all of these costs and risks before permitting a municipal fiber program to go forward.” The risks and
Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs
Is the bottom line the fact that there isn't an actual person or persons that will lose a whole lot of money if it doesn't work out? Seems like people are real ambitious when playing with other peoples money. Sterling Jacobson wrote: I agree with that. The numbers never added up. iProvo never added up, Utopia never added up, Amercian Fork system numbers never made any sense. I was a network provider on iProvo and AF networks for a while and sold them off since they were always substandard and profit was driven to minimum. -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 10:46 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs Here is an editorial in the Deseret News today. It is just an opinion. And I know Roger has been a reader of this list (Roger runs UTOPIA). But I have always been against municipal ISPs on principle. Some things the government is good at, some things they are not good at. Roads and Streets == OK Police and Fire == OK EMS = OK but there are private providers that are OK too. Water and Sewer = OK but there are many private systems Power and Gas = Meh - I work in a city that has sold off their power and gas to private because it was not a revenue center and they had lots of power distribution problems. Telecommunications != OK They almost always seem to be problematic. And they compete with all of you (us) folks that can do a better job. (Sorry Roger, but that is my opinion). BY BILLY HESTERMAN FOR THE DESERET NEWS A longstanding principle of the Utah Taxpayers Association is if a service can be found in the yellow pages, then government shouldn’t be providing it. We have seen far too many times where government attempts to compete with the private sector and ends up wasting taxpayer money. One prime example of this is the failed UTOPIA boondoggle that continues to plague the 11 cities that created the entity. On Aug. 14, the Utah Infrastructure Agency, which was created in 2011 to give UTOPIA more borrowing capacity, will vote on taking out a $13 million bond to further build out the UTOPIA network in hopes of making the whole effort profitable. The vote will likely pass but the effort to make UTOPIA and UIA a success for taxpayers will never be realized. This attempt to continue to send money after a bad idea has to stop. The private sector is already providing the same service that can be obtained through UTOPIA and it is past time that the local governments that created this mess find a way out. Recently, the University of Pennsylvania released a study that examined 20 municipally owned fiber networks from across the nation; UTOPIA was included in the study. The report found that a majority of these networks struggle to recover the costs that were incurred to build them. It went on to show that of the 20 projects, only nine have had a positive revenue stream but that of those nine, five are generating returns so small that it would take more than 100 years for the project costs to be recovered. Only two of the 20 networks are expected to earn enough to cover their project costs during the useful life of the networks. The Penn report went on to state that these government-owned ventures struggle to ever make a profit and put taxpayers in danger of seeing their local government increase debt, lose bond rating status and elected officials becoming distracted from other important issues because they are solely focused on the government’s fiber business. The report found that if UTOPIA continues in its current state, that the project will likely never turn a profit. It observed in a five-year span from 2010-2014 that the network only obtained 11,000 subscribers and that with a low subscription take the network was realizing less than $30 in revenue per household in the cities that make up UTOPIA. That is well below the $446 per household benchmark achieved by other projects that the report looked at. I am often asked why the Utah Taxpayers Association cares so deeply about the UTOPIA issue. One statement from the Penn report sums up why we have taken the position we have as the report states, “Many cities managing these projects have faced defaults, reductions in bond ratings, and ongoing liability, not to mention the toll that troubled municipal broadband ventures can take on city leaders in terms of personal turmoil and distraction from other matters important to citizens. City leaders should carefully assess all of these costs and risks before permitting a municipal fiber program to go forward.” The risks and consequences are too much for taxpayers to shoulder. UTOPIA and UIA officials should vote against the upcoming $13 million bond and start looking for new directions to take the network that will be beneficial for taxpayers instead of continually investing money into a sinking ship that will never be
Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs
That's interesting. Can you share more details about being a service provider on the iProvo and AF networks? In what way we're they substandard? Jared > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 > From: "Sterling Jacobson" > To: "af@afmug.com" > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > I agree with that. > > The numbers never added up. iProvo never added up, Utopia never added up, > Amercian Fork system numbers never made any sense. > > I was a network provider on iProvo and AF networks for a while and sold them > off since they were always substandard and profit was driven to minimum. > > > -Original Message- > From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com > Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 10:46 AM > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs > > Here is an editorial in the Deseret News today. It is just an opinion. > > And I know Roger has been a reader of this list (Roger runs UTOPIA). > > But I have always been against municipal ISPs on principle. Some things the > government is good at, some things they are not good at. > > Roads and Streets == OK > Police and Fire == OK > EMS = OK but there are private providers that are OK too. > Water and Sewer = OK but there are many private systems Power and Gas = Meh > - I work in a city that has sold off their power and gas to private because > it was not a revenue center and they had lots of power distribution problems. > > Telecommunications != OK > > They almost always seem to be problematic. And they compete with all of you > (us) folks that can do a better job. (Sorry Roger, but that is my > opinion). > > > BY BILLY HESTERMAN > > FOR THE DESERET NEWS > > A longstanding principle of the Utah Taxpayers Association is if a service > can be found in the yellow pages, then government shouldn’t be providing it. > We have seen far too many times where government attempts to compete with the > private sector and ends up wasting taxpayer money. One prime example of this > is the failed UTOPIA boondoggle that continues to plague the 11 cities that > created the entity. > > On Aug. 14, the Utah Infrastructure Agency, which was created in 2011 to give > UTOPIA more borrowing capacity, will vote on taking out a $13 million bond to > further build out the UTOPIA network in hopes of making the whole effort > profitable. The vote will likely pass but the effort to make UTOPIA and UIA a > success for taxpayers will never be realized. > > This attempt to continue to send money after a bad idea has to stop. > > The private sector is already providing the same service that can be obtained > through UTOPIA and it is past time that the local governments that created > this mess find a way out. > > Recently, the University of Pennsylvania released a study that examined 20 > municipally owned fiber networks from across the nation; UTOPIA was included > in the study. > > The report found that a majority of these networks struggle to recover the > costs that were incurred to build them. It went on to show that of the 20 > projects, only nine have had a positive revenue stream but that of those > nine, five are generating returns so small that it would take more than 100 > years for the project costs to be recovered. Only two of the 20 networks are > expected to earn enough to cover their project costs during the useful life > of the networks. > > The Penn report went on to state that these government-owned ventures > struggle to ever make a profit and put taxpayers in danger of seeing their > local government increase debt, lose bond rating status and elected officials > becoming distracted from other important issues because they are solely > focused on the government’s fiber business. The report found that if UTOPIA > continues in its current state, that the project will likely never turn a > profit. It observed in a five-year span from 2010-2014 that the network only > obtained 11,000 subscribers and that with a low subscription take the network > was realizing less than $30 in revenue per household in the cities that make > up UTOPIA. That is well below the $446 per household benchmark achieved by > other projects that the report looked at. > > I am often asked why the Utah Taxpayers Association cares so deeply about the > UTOPIA issue. One statement from the Penn report sums up why we have taken > the position we have as the report states, “Many cities managing these > projects have faced defaults, reductions in bond ratings, and ongoing > liability, not to mention the toll that troubled municipal broadband ventures > can take on city leaders i
Re: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs
I agree with that. The numbers never added up. iProvo never added up, Utopia never added up, Amercian Fork system numbers never made any sense. I was a network provider on iProvo and AF networks for a while and sold them off since they were always substandard and profit was driven to minimum. -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 10:46 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs Here is an editorial in the Deseret News today. It is just an opinion. And I know Roger has been a reader of this list (Roger runs UTOPIA). But I have always been against municipal ISPs on principle. Some things the government is good at, some things they are not good at. Roads and Streets == OK Police and Fire == OK EMS = OK but there are private providers that are OK too. Water and Sewer = OK but there are many private systems Power and Gas = Meh - I work in a city that has sold off their power and gas to private because it was not a revenue center and they had lots of power distribution problems. Telecommunications != OK They almost always seem to be problematic. And they compete with all of you (us) folks that can do a better job. (Sorry Roger, but that is my opinion). BY BILLY HESTERMAN FOR THE DESERET NEWS A longstanding principle of the Utah Taxpayers Association is if a service can be found in the yellow pages, then government shouldn’t be providing it. We have seen far too many times where government attempts to compete with the private sector and ends up wasting taxpayer money. One prime example of this is the failed UTOPIA boondoggle that continues to plague the 11 cities that created the entity. On Aug. 14, the Utah Infrastructure Agency, which was created in 2011 to give UTOPIA more borrowing capacity, will vote on taking out a $13 million bond to further build out the UTOPIA network in hopes of making the whole effort profitable. The vote will likely pass but the effort to make UTOPIA and UIA a success for taxpayers will never be realized. This attempt to continue to send money after a bad idea has to stop. The private sector is already providing the same service that can be obtained through UTOPIA and it is past time that the local governments that created this mess find a way out. Recently, the University of Pennsylvania released a study that examined 20 municipally owned fiber networks from across the nation; UTOPIA was included in the study. The report found that a majority of these networks struggle to recover the costs that were incurred to build them. It went on to show that of the 20 projects, only nine have had a positive revenue stream but that of those nine, five are generating returns so small that it would take more than 100 years for the project costs to be recovered. Only two of the 20 networks are expected to earn enough to cover their project costs during the useful life of the networks. The Penn report went on to state that these government-owned ventures struggle to ever make a profit and put taxpayers in danger of seeing their local government increase debt, lose bond rating status and elected officials becoming distracted from other important issues because they are solely focused on the government’s fiber business. The report found that if UTOPIA continues in its current state, that the project will likely never turn a profit. It observed in a five-year span from 2010-2014 that the network only obtained 11,000 subscribers and that with a low subscription take the network was realizing less than $30 in revenue per household in the cities that make up UTOPIA. That is well below the $446 per household benchmark achieved by other projects that the report looked at. I am often asked why the Utah Taxpayers Association cares so deeply about the UTOPIA issue. One statement from the Penn report sums up why we have taken the position we have as the report states, “Many cities managing these projects have faced defaults, reductions in bond ratings, and ongoing liability, not to mention the toll that troubled municipal broadband ventures can take on city leaders in terms of personal turmoil and distraction from other matters important to citizens. City leaders should carefully assess all of these costs and risks before permitting a municipal fiber program to go forward.” The risks and consequences are too much for taxpayers to shoulder. UTOPIA and UIA officials should vote against the upcoming $13 million bond and start looking for new directions to take the network that will be beneficial for taxpayers instead of continually investing money into a sinking ship that will never be sea-worthy. Billy Hesterman is the vice president of the Utah Taxpayers Association.
[AFMUG] OT Municipally funded ISPs
Here is an editorial in the Deseret News today. It is just an opinion. And I know Roger has been a reader of this list (Roger runs UTOPIA). But I have always been against municipal ISPs on principle. Some things the government is good at, some things they are not good at. Roads and Streets == OK Police and Fire == OK EMS = OK but there are private providers that are OK too. Water and Sewer = OK but there are many private systems Power and Gas = Meh - I work in a city that has sold off their power and gas to private because it was not a revenue center and they had lots of power distribution problems. Telecommunications != OK They almost always seem to be problematic. And they compete with all of you (us) folks that can do a better job. (Sorry Roger, but that is my opinion). BY BILLY HESTERMAN FOR THE DESERET NEWS A longstanding principle of the Utah Taxpayers Association is if a service can be found in the yellow pages, then government shouldn’t be providing it. We have seen far too many times where government attempts to compete with the private sector and ends up wasting taxpayer money. One prime example of this is the failed UTOPIA boondoggle that continues to plague the 11 cities that created the entity. On Aug. 14, the Utah Infrastructure Agency, which was created in 2011 to give UTOPIA more borrowing capacity, will vote on taking out a $13 million bond to further build out the UTOPIA network in hopes of making the whole effort profitable. The vote will likely pass but the effort to make UTOPIA and UIA a success for taxpayers will never be realized. This attempt to continue to send money after a bad idea has to stop. The private sector is already providing the same service that can be obtained through UTOPIA and it is past time that the local governments that created this mess find a way out. Recently, the University of Pennsylvania released a study that examined 20 municipally owned fiber networks from across the nation; UTOPIA was included in the study. The report found that a majority of these networks struggle to recover the costs that were incurred to build them. It went on to show that of the 20 projects, only nine have had a positive revenue stream but that of those nine, five are generating returns so small that it would take more than 100 years for the project costs to be recovered. Only two of the 20 networks are expected to earn enough to cover their project costs during the useful life of the networks. The Penn report went on to state that these government-owned ventures struggle to ever make a profit and put taxpayers in danger of seeing their local government increase debt, lose bond rating status and elected officials becoming distracted from other important issues because they are solely focused on the government’s fiber business. The report found that if UTOPIA continues in its current state, that the project will likely never turn a profit. It observed in a five-year span from 2010-2014 that the network only obtained 11,000 subscribers and that with a low subscription take the network was realizing less than $30 in revenue per household in the cities that make up UTOPIA. That is well below the $446 per household benchmark achieved by other projects that the report looked at. I am often asked why the Utah Taxpayers Association cares so deeply about the UTOPIA issue. One statement from the Penn report sums up why we have taken the position we have as the report states, “Many cities managing these projects have faced defaults, reductions in bond ratings, and ongoing liability, not to mention the toll that troubled municipal broadband ventures can take on city leaders in terms of personal turmoil and distraction from other matters important to citizens. City leaders should carefully assess all of these costs and risks before permitting a municipal fiber program to go forward.” The risks and consequences are too much for taxpayers to shoulder. UTOPIA and UIA officials should vote against the upcoming $13 million bond and start looking for new directions to take the network that will be beneficial for taxpayers instead of continually investing money into a sinking ship that will never be sea-worthy. Billy Hesterman is the vice president of the Utah Taxpayers Association.
