Re: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

[Adam Moffett]

A lot of manufacturers to pick from
With licensing and a spare radio/dish, I'm thinking $9,000.

You could talk about other companies' unlicensed 24ghz options and 
compare apples to apples.



-- Original Message --
From: "Eric Muehleisen" 
To: "af@afmug.com" 
Sent: 12/9/2016 2:31:13 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

2 mile 18ghz link. Only needing about 150mb/s speeds. 2ft. dish 
maximum. Five9's. Rainzone K.


Need a quick and dirty, ballpark idea of costs including licensing and 
spare radio/dish.


Need to price it against an AirFiber24 install.

Re: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

[George Skorup]

I really hate to admit it, but those requirements would make me look at 
Exalt once more. The ExtendAir G2-18 would be a good fit. We have a link 
at 2.5 miles on Radiowaves HP2's at both ends. It has held up 
surprisingly well in the rain. 2 to 2.5 mile AF24 links in the same area 
drop. I guess the -34dBm RSL helps. Yes, it dropped to -70dBm, but still 
maintained the required 100Mbps FDX.


You get single unit sparing with the replaceable/rotate-able diplexer. 
They're 802.3at and use about 26 watts. You get ACM without a license 
key. They come with a base 25Mbps license. If the promo is still going, 
you get 100Mbps keys with it. I don't remember if there's a 200 or 
250Mbps or if you have to go from 100 to the full 370.


The one thing that Ken and I have both asked Exalt for, which at this 
point I expect will never happen, is power per mod level, aka variable 
power. All you get is fixed power with ACM on. IIRC, 18 or 19dBm for 
18GHz and 21dBm for 11GHz at 256QAM. The radios definitely do support 
higher power at lower modulations, so they're either stupid or lazy. No 
coordinator will even bother with variable power on the PCNs. We tried 
and got objections stating that "the radios don't do that". Exalt kept 
saying it's coming in future software, yet here we are two years later 
and nothing.


On 12/9/2016 2:47 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:

A lot of manufacturers to pick from
With licensing and a spare radio/dish, I'm thinking $9,000.

You could talk about other companies' unlicensed 24ghz options and 
compare apples to apples.



-- Original Message --
From: "Eric Muehleisen" mailto:ericm...@gmail.com>>
To: "af@afmug.com" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
Sent: 12/9/2016 2:31:13 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

2 mile 18ghz link. Only needing about 150mb/s speeds. 2ft. dish 
maximum. Five9's. Rainzone K.


Need a quick and dirty, ballpark idea of costs including licensing 
and spare radio/dish.


Need to price it against an AirFiber24 install.

Re: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

[Eric Kuhnke]

I think you may be asking too much to desire ATPC / varying transmit power
levels on Exalt's lowest priced model 18 GHz licensed band link. It's
actually a lot easier for the manufacturer to design the link with a fixed
+18 or +19 Tx power, than to do the feedback loop and control system needed
to properly and reliably implement ATPC based on RSL thresholds on the
other end radio. How do you know it definitely does support higher tx power
at lower modulations (you want +22 at QPSK 3/4???), it's entirely possible
the radio itself was designed from the beginning as a fixed +18 Tx power.
In any case this should be a moot point with a 2 mile link.



On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 1:38 PM, George Skorup  wrote:

> I really hate to admit it, but those requirements would make me look at
> Exalt once more. The ExtendAir G2-18 would be a good fit. We have a link at
> 2.5 miles on Radiowaves HP2's at both ends. It has held up surprisingly
> well in the rain. 2 to 2.5 mile AF24 links in the same area drop. I guess
> the -34dBm RSL helps. Yes, it dropped to -70dBm, but still maintained the
> required 100Mbps FDX.
>
> You get single unit sparing with the replaceable/rotate-able diplexer.
> They're 802.3at and use about 26 watts. You get ACM without a license key.
> They come with a base 25Mbps license. If the promo is still going, you get
> 100Mbps keys with it. I don't remember if there's a 200 or 250Mbps or if
> you have to go from 100 to the full 370.
>
> The one thing that Ken and I have both asked Exalt for, which at this
> point I expect will never happen, is power per mod level, aka variable
> power. All you get is fixed power with ACM on. IIRC, 18 or 19dBm for 18GHz
> and 21dBm for 11GHz at 256QAM. The radios definitely do support higher
> power at lower modulations, so they're either stupid or lazy. No
> coordinator will even bother with variable power on the PCNs. We tried and
> got objections stating that "the radios don't do that". Exalt kept saying
> it's coming in future software, yet here we are two years later and nothing.
>
> On 12/9/2016 2:47 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
>
> A lot of manufacturers to pick from
> With licensing and a spare radio/dish, I'm thinking $9,000.
>
> You could talk about other companies' unlicensed 24ghz options and compare
> apples to apples.
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Eric Muehleisen" 
> To: "af@afmug.com"  
> Sent: 12/9/2016 2:31:13 PM
> Subject: [AFMUG] microwave pricing
>
> 2 mile 18ghz link. Only needing about 150mb/s speeds. 2ft. dish maximum.
> Five9's. Rainzone K.
>
> Need a quick and dirty, ballpark idea of costs including licensing and
> spare radio/dish.
>
> Need to price it against an AirFiber24 install.
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

[Eric Kuhnke]

You want five nines at full modulation in rain zone K with 2' dishes, 2
miles, or you want five nines ICMP ping reliability across the link and are
OK with it dropping below 150Mbps on rare heavy rain events?  To different
things.

I would look at the SAF Integra (or slip-fit integra) single pol radio, or
the SIAE AlfoPlus 18 GHz single pol configuration.

You cannot directly compare a +18 Tx power FDD licensed band part 101 link
to an AF24...  Apples and oranges.




On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Eric Muehleisen  wrote:

> 2 mile 18ghz link. Only needing about 150mb/s speeds. 2ft. dish maximum.
> Five9's. Rainzone K.
>
> Need a quick and dirty, ballpark idea of costs including licensing and
> spare radio/dish.
>
> Need to price it against an AirFiber24 install.
>

Re: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

[Ken Hohhof]

As George said, the G2 definitely supports higher xmt power at lower 
modulations if set manually.  They actually promised me the auto feature, even 
gave me a due date and release number for the firmware.  I think what happened 
was they released the G2 with promo pricing, and discovered people would only 
buy it at the promo price, so they pulled development off it.  They also went 
through a messy ownership change around that time, who knows if they even have 
engineers anymore?  Although they released a 6 GHz version of the G2, so I 
guess there’s some development.  They have some big utility customers, like in 
the energy sector, maybe one of them wanted an inexpensive 6 GHz radio.

 

It’s not that big a deal, just annoying.  Wouldn’t be the first time a vendor 
promised something in future firmware and it didn’t happen.

 

It’s the last month of the year, you could always call around and see who needs 
another sale for their quarterly or annual sales numbers.  Nothing wrong with 
Trango Apex Plus for that application.

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Eric Kuhnke
Sent: Friday, December 9, 2016 4:14 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

 

I think you may be asking too much to desire ATPC / varying transmit power 
levels on Exalt's lowest priced model 18 GHz licensed band link. It's actually 
a lot easier for the manufacturer to design the link with a fixed +18 or +19 Tx 
power, than to do the feedback loop and control system needed to properly and 
reliably implement ATPC based on RSL thresholds on the other end radio. How do 
you know it definitely does support higher tx power at lower modulations (you 
want +22 at QPSK 3/4???), it's entirely possible the radio itself was designed 
from the beginning as a fixed +18 Tx power.  In any case this should be a moot 
point with a 2 mile link.



 

On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 1:38 PM, George Skorup mailto:geo...@cbcast.com> > wrote:

I really hate to admit it, but those requirements would make me look at Exalt 
once more. The ExtendAir G2-18 would be a good fit. We have a link at 2.5 miles 
on Radiowaves HP2's at both ends. It has held up surprisingly well in the rain. 
2 to 2.5 mile AF24 links in the same area drop. I guess the -34dBm RSL helps. 
Yes, it dropped to -70dBm, but still maintained the required 100Mbps FDX.

You get single unit sparing with the replaceable/rotate-able diplexer. They're 
802.3at and use about 26 watts. You get ACM without a license key. They come 
with a base 25Mbps license. If the promo is still going, you get 100Mbps keys 
with it. I don't remember if there's a 200 or 250Mbps or if you have to go from 
100 to the full 370.

The one thing that Ken and I have both asked Exalt for, which at this point I 
expect will never happen, is power per mod level, aka variable power. All you 
get is fixed power with ACM on. IIRC, 18 or 19dBm for 18GHz and 21dBm for 11GHz 
at 256QAM. The radios definitely do support higher power at lower modulations, 
so they're either stupid or lazy. No coordinator will even bother with variable 
power on the PCNs. We tried and got objections stating that "the radios don't 
do that". Exalt kept saying it's coming in future software, yet here we are two 
years later and nothing.

On 12/9/2016 2:47 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:

A lot of manufacturers to pick from

With licensing and a spare radio/dish, I'm thinking $9,000.

 

You could talk about other companies' unlicensed 24ghz options and compare 
apples to apples. 

 

 

-- Original Message --

From: "Eric Muehleisen" mailto:ericm...@gmail.com> >

To:  <mailto:af@afmug.com> "af@afmug.com" mailto:af@afmug.com> >

Sent: 12/9/2016 2:31:13 PM

Subject: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

 

2 mile 18ghz link. Only needing about 150mb/s speeds. 2ft. dish maximum. 
Five9's. Rainzone K. 

 

Need a quick and dirty, ballpark idea of costs including licensing and spare 
radio/dish.

 

Need to price it against an AirFiber24 install. 

 

 

Re: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

[George Skorup]

The G2 does ATPC in all bands. So remote RSL feedback is already there. 
Exactly the same with the Trango ApexPlus which also did ATPC before it 
did variable power. They then later adapted ATPC to provide variable 
power. Exalt could do the same.


On 12/9/2016 4:14 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
I think you may be asking too much to desire ATPC / varying transmit 
power levels on Exalt's lowest priced model 18 GHz licensed band link. 
It's actually a lot easier for the manufacturer to design the link 
with a fixed +18 or +19 Tx power, than to do the feedback loop and 
control system needed to properly and reliably implement ATPC based on 
RSL thresholds on the other end radio. How do you know it definitely 
does support higher tx power at lower modulations (you want +22 at 
QPSK 3/4???), it's entirely possible the radio itself was designed 
from the beginning as a fixed +18 Tx power.  In any case this should 
be a moot point with a 2 mile link.




On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 1:38 PM, George Skorup > wrote:


I really hate to admit it, but those requirements would make me
look at Exalt once more. The ExtendAir G2-18 would be a good fit.
We have a link at 2.5 miles on Radiowaves HP2's at both ends. It
has held up surprisingly well in the rain. 2 to 2.5 mile AF24
links in the same area drop. I guess the -34dBm RSL helps. Yes, it
dropped to -70dBm, but still maintained the required 100Mbps FDX.

You get single unit sparing with the replaceable/rotate-able
diplexer. They're 802.3at and use about 26 watts. You get ACM
without a license key. They come with a base 25Mbps license. If
the promo is still going, you get 100Mbps keys with it. I don't
remember if there's a 200 or 250Mbps or if you have to go from 100
to the full 370.

The one thing that Ken and I have both asked Exalt for, which at
this point I expect will never happen, is power per mod level, aka
variable power. All you get is fixed power with ACM on. IIRC, 18
or 19dBm for 18GHz and 21dBm for 11GHz at 256QAM. The radios
definitely do support higher power at lower modulations, so
they're either stupid or lazy. No coordinator will even bother
with variable power on the PCNs. We tried and got objections
stating that "the radios don't do that". Exalt kept saying it's
coming in future software, yet here we are two years later and
nothing.

On 12/9/2016 2:47 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:

A lot of manufacturers to pick from
With licensing and a spare radio/dish, I'm thinking $9,000.

You could talk about other companies' unlicensed 24ghz options
and compare apples to apples.


-- Original Message --
From: "Eric Muehleisen" mailto:ericm...@gmail.com>>
To: "af@afmug.com"  mailto:af@afmug.com>>
Sent: 12/9/2016 2:31:13 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] microwave pricing


2 mile 18ghz link. Only needing about 150mb/s speeds. 2ft. dish
maximum. Five9's. Rainzone K.

Need a quick and dirty, ballpark idea of costs including
licensing and spare radio/dish.

Need to price it against an AirFiber24 install.

Re: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

[Faisal Imtiaz]

If your budget constrained, you can look at what is available on the secondary 
/ refurb marketplace. 

(Surpluswireless gear can hook you up). 

Last year we did a SAF 18ghz (lumina) w/2ft dishes, worked out to be approx $5k 
with licensing.. 

Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
7266 SW 48 Street 
Miami, FL 33155 
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 

> From: "Adam Moffett" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: Friday, December 9, 2016 3:47:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

> A lot of manufacturers to pick from
> With licensing and a spare radio/dish, I'm thinking $9,000.

> You could talk about other companies' unlicensed 24ghz options and compare
> apples to apples.

> -- Original Message --
> From: "Eric Muehleisen" < ericm...@gmail.com >
> To: "af@afmug.com" < af@afmug.com >
> Sent: 12/9/2016 2:31:13 PM
> Subject: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

>> 2 mile 18ghz link. Only needing about 150mb/s speeds. 2ft. dish maximum.
>> Five9's. Rainzone K.

>> Need a quick and dirty, ballpark idea of costs including licensing and spare
>> radio/dish.

>> Need to price it against an AirFiber24 install.

Re: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

[Jaime Solorza]

I thought exalt was bought out by Crisco...

On Dec 9, 2016 5:39 PM, "George Skorup"  wrote:

> The G2 does ATPC in all bands. So remote RSL feedback is already there.
> Exactly the same with the Trango ApexPlus which also did ATPC before it did
> variable power. They then later adapted ATPC to provide variable power.
> Exalt could do the same.
>
> On 12/9/2016 4:14 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
>
> I think you may be asking too much to desire ATPC / varying transmit power
> levels on Exalt's lowest priced model 18 GHz licensed band link. It's
> actually a lot easier for the manufacturer to design the link with a fixed
> +18 or +19 Tx power, than to do the feedback loop and control system needed
> to properly and reliably implement ATPC based on RSL thresholds on the
> other end radio. How do you know it definitely does support higher tx power
> at lower modulations (you want +22 at QPSK 3/4???), it's entirely possible
> the radio itself was designed from the beginning as a fixed +18 Tx power.
> In any case this should be a moot point with a 2 mile link.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 1:38 PM, George Skorup  wrote:
>
>> I really hate to admit it, but those requirements would make me look at
>> Exalt once more. The ExtendAir G2-18 would be a good fit. We have a link at
>> 2.5 miles on Radiowaves HP2's at both ends. It has held up surprisingly
>> well in the rain. 2 to 2.5 mile AF24 links in the same area drop. I guess
>> the -34dBm RSL helps. Yes, it dropped to -70dBm, but still maintained the
>> required 100Mbps FDX.
>>
>> You get single unit sparing with the replaceable/rotate-able diplexer.
>> They're 802.3at and use about 26 watts. You get ACM without a license key.
>> They come with a base 25Mbps license. If the promo is still going, you get
>> 100Mbps keys with it. I don't remember if there's a 200 or 250Mbps or if
>> you have to go from 100 to the full 370.
>>
>> The one thing that Ken and I have both asked Exalt for, which at this
>> point I expect will never happen, is power per mod level, aka variable
>> power. All you get is fixed power with ACM on. IIRC, 18 or 19dBm for 18GHz
>> and 21dBm for 11GHz at 256QAM. The radios definitely do support higher
>> power at lower modulations, so they're either stupid or lazy. No
>> coordinator will even bother with variable power on the PCNs. We tried and
>> got objections stating that "the radios don't do that". Exalt kept saying
>> it's coming in future software, yet here we are two years later and nothing.
>>
>> On 12/9/2016 2:47 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
>>
>> A lot of manufacturers to pick from
>> With licensing and a spare radio/dish, I'm thinking $9,000.
>>
>> You could talk about other companies' unlicensed 24ghz options and
>> compare apples to apples.
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Eric Muehleisen" 
>> To: "af@afmug.com"  
>> Sent: 12/9/2016 2:31:13 PM
>> Subject: [AFMUG] microwave pricing
>>
>> 2 mile 18ghz link. Only needing about 150mb/s speeds. 2ft. dish maximum.
>> Five9's. Rainzone K.
>>
>> Need a quick and dirty, ballpark idea of costs including licensing and
>> spare radio/dish.
>>
>> Need to price it against an AirFiber24 install.
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

[Ken Hohhof]

Cisco OEM’s a 5 GHz PTP radio from Exalt.  Old news.  If they bought Exalt, 
that’s news to  me, but I don’t think so.

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jaime Solorza
Sent: Friday, December 9, 2016 8:17 PM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

 

I thought exalt was bought out by Crisco...

 

On Dec 9, 2016 5:39 PM, "George Skorup" mailto:geo...@cbcast.com> > wrote:

The G2 does ATPC in all bands. So remote RSL feedback is already there. Exactly 
the same with the Trango ApexPlus which also did ATPC before it did variable 
power. They then later adapted ATPC to provide variable power. Exalt could do 
the same.

On 12/9/2016 4:14 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:

I think you may be asking too much to desire ATPC / varying transmit power 
levels on Exalt's lowest priced model 18 GHz licensed band link. It's actually 
a lot easier for the manufacturer to design the link with a fixed +18 or +19 Tx 
power, than to do the feedback loop and control system needed to properly and 
reliably implement ATPC based on RSL thresholds on the other end radio. How do 
you know it definitely does support higher tx power at lower modulations (you 
want +22 at QPSK 3/4???), it's entirely possible the radio itself was designed 
from the beginning as a fixed +18 Tx power.  In any case this should be a moot 
point with a 2 mile link.



 

On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 1:38 PM, George Skorup mailto:geo...@cbcast.com> > wrote:

I really hate to admit it, but those requirements would make me look at Exalt 
once more. The ExtendAir G2-18 would be a good fit. We have a link at 2.5 miles 
on Radiowaves HP2's at both ends. It has held up surprisingly well in the rain. 
2 to 2.5 mile AF24 links in the same area drop. I guess the -34dBm RSL helps. 
Yes, it dropped to -70dBm, but still maintained the required 100Mbps FDX.

You get single unit sparing with the replaceable/rotate-able diplexer. They're 
802.3at and use about 26 watts. You get ACM without a license key. They come 
with a base 25Mbps license. If the promo is still going, you get 100Mbps keys 
with it. I don't remember if there's a 200 or 250Mbps or if you have to go from 
100 to the full 370.

The one thing that Ken and I have both asked Exalt for, which at this point I 
expect will never happen, is power per mod level, aka variable power. All you 
get is fixed power with ACM on. IIRC, 18 or 19dBm for 18GHz and 21dBm for 11GHz 
at 256QAM. The radios definitely do support higher power at lower modulations, 
so they're either stupid or lazy. No coordinator will even bother with variable 
power on the PCNs. We tried and got objections stating that "the radios don't 
do that". Exalt kept saying it's coming in future software, yet here we are two 
years later and nothing.

On 12/9/2016 2:47 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:

A lot of manufacturers to pick from

With licensing and a spare radio/dish, I'm thinking $9,000.

 

You could talk about other companies' unlicensed 24ghz options and compare 
apples to apples. 

 

 

-- Original Message --

From: "Eric Muehleisen" mailto:ericm...@gmail.com> >

To:  <mailto:af@afmug.com> "af@afmug.com" mailto:af@afmug.com> >

Sent: 12/9/2016 2:31:13 PM

Subject: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

 

2 mile 18ghz link. Only needing about 150mb/s speeds. 2ft. dish maximum. 
Five9's. Rainzone K. 

 

Need a quick and dirty, ballpark idea of costs including licensing and spare 
radio/dish.

 

Need to price it against an AirFiber24 install. 

 

 

 

Re: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

[Gino Villarini]

SWG has some nice deals on refub Dragonwave Compacts , $3k IIRC with 2ft 
antennas

From: Af mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>> on behalf of Eric 
Muehleisen mailto:ericm...@gmail.com>>
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
mailto:af@afmug.com>>
Date: Friday, December 9, 2016 at 3:31 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
Subject: [AFMUG] microwave pricing

2 mile 18ghz link. Only needing about 150mb/s speeds. 2ft. dish maximum. 
Five9's. Rainzone K.

Need a quick and dirty, ballpark idea of costs including licensing and spare 
radio/dish.

Need to price it against an AirFiber24 install.



Gino Villarini


President
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968

[cid:aeronet-logo_310cfc3e-6691-4f69-bd49-b37b834b9238.png]