Cross-Cultural Discussion using English [WAS Re: [agi] Creativity ...]

2008-12-19 Thread Richard Loosemore 

Ben Goertzel wrote:


yeah ... that's not a matter of the English language but rather a matter 
of the American Way ;-p


Through working with many non-Americans I have noted that what Americans 
often intend as a "playful obnoxiousness" is interpreted by 
non-Americans more seriously...


Except that, in fact, Mike is not American but British.

As a result of long experience talking to Americans, I have discovered 
that what British people intend as routine discussion, Americans 
interpret as serious, intentional obnoxiousness.  And then, what 
Americans (as you say) intend as playful obnoxiousness, non-Americans 
interpret more seriously.




Richard Loosemore







I think we had some mutual colleagues in the past who favored such a 
style of discourse ;-)


ben

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Pei Wang > wrote:


On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Ben Goertzel mailto:b...@goertzel.org>> wrote:
 >
 > IMHO, Mike Tintner is not often rude, and is not exactly a
"troll" because I
 > feel he is genuinely trying to understand the deeper issues
related to AGI,
 > rather than mainly trying to stir up trouble or cause irritation

Well, I guess my English is not good enough to tell the subtle
difference in tones, but his comments often sound that "You AGIers are
so obviously wrong that I don't even bother to understand what you are
saying ... Now let me tell you ...".

I don't enjoy this tone.

Pei





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Re: Cross-Cultural Discussion using English [WAS Re: [agi] Creativity ...]

2008-12-19 Thread Ben Goertzel 
And when a Chinese doesn't answer a question, it usually means "No" ;-)

Relatedly, I am discussing with some US gov't people a potential project
involving customizing an AI reasoning system to emulate the different
inferential judgments of people from different cultures...

ben

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Richard Loosemore wrote:

> Ben Goertzel wrote:
>
>>
>> yeah ... that's not a matter of the English language but rather a matter
>> of the American Way ;-p
>>
>> Through working with many non-Americans I have noted that what Americans
>> often intend as a "playful obnoxiousness" is interpreted by non-Americans
>> more seriously...
>>
>
> Except that, in fact, Mike is not American but British.
>
> As a result of long experience talking to Americans, I have discovered that
> what British people intend as routine discussion, Americans interpret as
> serious, intentional obnoxiousness.  And then, what Americans (as you say)
> intend as playful obnoxiousness, non-Americans interpret more seriously.
>
>
>
> Richard Loosemore
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think we had some mutual colleagues in the past who favored such a style
>> of discourse ;-)
>>
>> ben
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Pei Wang > mail.peiw...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Ben Goertzel >> wrote:
>> >
>> > IMHO, Mike Tintner is not often rude, and is not exactly a
>>"troll" because I
>> > feel he is genuinely trying to understand the deeper issues
>>related to AGI,
>> > rather than mainly trying to stir up trouble or cause irritation
>>
>>Well, I guess my English is not good enough to tell the subtle
>>difference in tones, but his comments often sound that "You AGIers are
>>so obviously wrong that I don't even bother to understand what you are
>>saying ... Now let me tell you ...".
>>
>>I don't enjoy this tone.
>>
>>Pei
>>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> agi
> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
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-- 
Ben Goertzel, PhD
CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
Director of Research, SIAI
b...@goertzel.org

"I intend to live forever, or die trying."
-- Groucho Marx



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Re: Cross-Cultural Discussion using English [WAS Re: [agi] Creativity ...]

2008-12-19 Thread Pei Wang 
Richard and Ben,

If you think I, as a Chinese, have overreacted to Mike Tintner's
writing style, and this is just a culture difference, please let me
know. In that case I'll try my best to learn his way of communication,
at least when talking to British and American people --- who knows, it
may even improve my marketing ability. ;-)

Pei

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 7:01 PM, Ben Goertzel  wrote:
>
> And when a Chinese doesn't answer a question, it usually means "No" ;-)
>
> Relatedly, I am discussing with some US gov't people a potential project
> involving customizing an AI reasoning system to emulate the different
> inferential judgments of people from different cultures...
>
> ben
>
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Richard Loosemore 
> wrote:
>>
>> Ben Goertzel wrote:
>>>
>>> yeah ... that's not a matter of the English language but rather a matter
>>> of the American Way ;-p
>>>
>>> Through working with many non-Americans I have noted that what Americans
>>> often intend as a "playful obnoxiousness" is interpreted by non-Americans
>>> more seriously...
>>
>> Except that, in fact, Mike is not American but British.
>>
>> As a result of long experience talking to Americans, I have discovered
>> that what British people intend as routine discussion, Americans interpret
>> as serious, intentional obnoxiousness.  And then, what Americans (as you
>> say) intend as playful obnoxiousness, non-Americans interpret more
>> seriously.
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard Loosemore
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I think we had some mutual colleagues in the past who favored such a
>>> style of discourse ;-)
>>>
>>> ben
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Pei Wang >> > wrote:
>>>
>>>On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Ben Goertzel >>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > IMHO, Mike Tintner is not often rude, and is not exactly a
>>>"troll" because I
>>> > feel he is genuinely trying to understand the deeper issues
>>>related to AGI,
>>> > rather than mainly trying to stir up trouble or cause irritation
>>>
>>>Well, I guess my English is not good enough to tell the subtle
>>>difference in tones, but his comments often sound that "You AGIers are
>>>so obviously wrong that I don't even bother to understand what you are
>>>saying ... Now let me tell you ...".
>>>
>>>I don't enjoy this tone.
>>>
>>>Pei
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> agi
>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
>> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
>
>
>
> --
> Ben Goertzel, PhD
> CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
> Director of Research, SIAI
> b...@goertzel.org
>
> "I intend to live forever, or die trying."
> -- Groucho Marx
>
> 
> agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription


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Re: Cross-Cultural Discussion using English [WAS Re: [agi] Creativity ...]

2008-12-19 Thread Ben Goertzel 
Well, I think you might have overreacted to his writing style for cultural
reasons

However, I also think that -- to be Americanly blunt -- you're very unlikely
to learn anything from conversing with Mike, nor to make much positive
impact on his own understanding by conversing with him.

So in this case, I reckon the cultural factors are kind of irrelevant ;-)

ben

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Pei Wang  wrote:

> Richard and Ben,
>
> If you think I, as a Chinese, have overreacted to Mike Tintner's
> writing style, and this is just a culture difference, please let me
> know. In that case I'll try my best to learn his way of communication,
> at least when talking to British and American people --- who knows, it
> may even improve my marketing ability. ;-)
>
> Pei
>
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 7:01 PM, Ben Goertzel  wrote:
> >
> > And when a Chinese doesn't answer a question, it usually means "No" ;-)
> >
> > Relatedly, I am discussing with some US gov't people a potential project
> > involving customizing an AI reasoning system to emulate the different
> > inferential judgments of people from different cultures...
> >
> > ben
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Richard Loosemore 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Ben Goertzel wrote:
> >>>
> >>> yeah ... that's not a matter of the English language but rather a
> matter
> >>> of the American Way ;-p
> >>>
> >>> Through working with many non-Americans I have noted that what
> Americans
> >>> often intend as a "playful obnoxiousness" is interpreted by
> non-Americans
> >>> more seriously...
> >>
> >> Except that, in fact, Mike is not American but British.
> >>
> >> As a result of long experience talking to Americans, I have discovered
> >> that what British people intend as routine discussion, Americans
> interpret
> >> as serious, intentional obnoxiousness.  And then, what Americans (as you
> >> say) intend as playful obnoxiousness, non-Americans interpret more
> >> seriously.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Richard Loosemore
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> I think we had some mutual colleagues in the past who favored such a
> >>> style of discourse ;-)
> >>>
> >>> ben
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Pei Wang  >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Ben Goertzel  >>>> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > IMHO, Mike Tintner is not often rude, and is not exactly a
> >>>"troll" because I
> >>> > feel he is genuinely trying to understand the deeper issues
> >>>related to AGI,
> >>> > rather than mainly trying to stir up trouble or cause irritation
> >>>
> >>>Well, I guess my English is not good enough to tell the subtle
> >>>difference in tones, but his comments often sound that "You AGIers
> are
> >>>so obviously wrong that I don't even bother to understand what you
> are
> >>>saying ... Now let me tell you ...".
> >>>
> >>>I don't enjoy this tone.
> >>>
> >>>Pei
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---
> >> agi
> >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
> >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
> >> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
> >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ben Goertzel, PhD
> > CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
> > Director of Research, SIAI
> > b...@goertzel.org
> >
> > "I intend to live forever, or die trying."
> > -- Groucho Marx
> >
> > 
> > agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription
>
>
> ---
> agi
> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
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-- 
Ben Goertzel, PhD
CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
Director of Research, SIAI
b...@goertzel.org

"I intend to live forever, or die trying."
-- Groucho Marx



---
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Re: Cross-Cultural Discussion using English [WAS Re: [agi] Creativity ...]

2008-12-19 Thread Ben Goertzel 
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 7:51 PM, Ben Goertzel  wrote:

>
> Well, I think you might have overreacted to his writing style for cultural
> reasons
>
> However, I also think that -- to be Americanly blunt -- you're very
> unlikely to learn anything from conversing with Mike,


On AGI-related topics, I meant.  He may well have other areas of expertise
where we could learn a lot from him, but they are not the focus of this
list.



> nor to make much positive impact on his own understanding by conversing
> with him.
>
> So in this case, I reckon the cultural factors are kind of irrelevant ;-)
>
> ben
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Pei Wang  wrote:
>
>> Richard and Ben,
>>
>> If you think I, as a Chinese, have overreacted to Mike Tintner's
>> writing style, and this is just a culture difference, please let me
>> know. In that case I'll try my best to learn his way of communication,
>> at least when talking to British and American people --- who knows, it
>> may even improve my marketing ability. ;-)
>>
>> Pei
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 7:01 PM, Ben Goertzel  wrote:
>> >
>> > And when a Chinese doesn't answer a question, it usually means "No" ;-)
>> >
>> > Relatedly, I am discussing with some US gov't people a potential project
>> > involving customizing an AI reasoning system to emulate the different
>> > inferential judgments of people from different cultures...
>> >
>> > ben
>> >
>> > On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Richard Loosemore 
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Ben Goertzel wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> yeah ... that's not a matter of the English language but rather a
>> matter
>> >>> of the American Way ;-p
>> >>>
>> >>> Through working with many non-Americans I have noted that what
>> Americans
>> >>> often intend as a "playful obnoxiousness" is interpreted by
>> non-Americans
>> >>> more seriously...
>> >>
>> >> Except that, in fact, Mike is not American but British.
>> >>
>> >> As a result of long experience talking to Americans, I have discovered
>> >> that what British people intend as routine discussion, Americans
>> interpret
>> >> as serious, intentional obnoxiousness.  And then, what Americans (as
>> you
>> >> say) intend as playful obnoxiousness, non-Americans interpret more
>> >> seriously.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Richard Loosemore
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> I think we had some mutual colleagues in the past who favored such a
>> >>> style of discourse ;-)
>> >>>
>> >>> ben
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Pei Wang > >>> > wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Ben Goertzel > >>>> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > IMHO, Mike Tintner is not often rude, and is not exactly a
>> >>>"troll" because I
>> >>> > feel he is genuinely trying to understand the deeper issues
>> >>>related to AGI,
>> >>> > rather than mainly trying to stir up trouble or cause irritation
>> >>>
>> >>>Well, I guess my English is not good enough to tell the subtle
>> >>>difference in tones, but his comments often sound that "You AGIers
>> are
>> >>>so obviously wrong that I don't even bother to understand what you
>> are
>> >>>saying ... Now let me tell you ...".
>> >>>
>> >>>I don't enjoy this tone.
>> >>>
>> >>>Pei
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---
>> >> agi
>> >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
>> >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
>> >> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
>> >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Ben Goertzel, PhD
>> > CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
>> > Director of Research, SIAI
>> > b...@goertzel.org
>> >
>> > "I intend to live forever, or die trying."
>> > -- Groucho Marx
>> >
>> > 
>> > agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription
>>
>>
>> ---
>> agi
>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
>> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/
>> Modify Your Subscription:
>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ben Goertzel, PhD
> CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
> Director of Research, SIAI
> b...@goertzel.org
>
> "I intend to live forever, or die trying."
> -- Groucho Marx
>
>


-- 
Ben Goertzel, PhD
CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
Director of Research, SIAI
b...@goertzel.org

"I intend to live forever, or die trying."
-- Groucho Marx



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Re: Cross-Cultural Discussion using English [WAS Re: [agi] Creativity ...]

2008-12-19 Thread Richard Loosemore 

Pei Wang wrote:

Richard and Ben,

If you think I, as a Chinese, have overreacted to Mike Tintner's
writing style, and this is just a culture difference, please let me
know. In that case I'll try my best to learn his way of communication,
at least when talking to British and American people --- who knows, it
may even improve my marketing ability. ;-)

Pei


No, no:  I seriously do not think you have overreacted at all.

I meant my comment half in jest:  Mike has some unique abilities to rub 
people up the wrong way on this list, quite separate from the fact that 
he is British.  The latter is an exacerbating factor, is all.




Richard Loosemore




On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 7:01 PM, Ben Goertzel  wrote:

And when a Chinese doesn't answer a question, it usually means "No" ;-)

Relatedly, I am discussing with some US gov't people a potential project
involving customizing an AI reasoning system to emulate the different
inferential judgments of people from different cultures...

ben

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Richard Loosemore 
wrote:

Ben Goertzel wrote:

yeah ... that's not a matter of the English language but rather a matter
of the American Way ;-p

Through working with many non-Americans I have noted that what Americans
often intend as a "playful obnoxiousness" is interpreted by non-Americans
more seriously...

Except that, in fact, Mike is not American but British.

As a result of long experience talking to Americans, I have discovered
that what British people intend as routine discussion, Americans interpret
as serious, intentional obnoxiousness.  And then, what Americans (as you
say) intend as playful obnoxiousness, non-Americans interpret more
seriously.



Richard Loosemore








I think we had some mutual colleagues in the past who favored such a
style of discourse ;-)

ben

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Pei Wang mailto:mail.peiw...@gmail.com>> wrote:

   On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Ben Goertzel mailto:b...@goertzel.org>> wrote:
>
> IMHO, Mike Tintner is not often rude, and is not exactly a
   "troll" because I
> feel he is genuinely trying to understand the deeper issues
   related to AGI,
> rather than mainly trying to stir up trouble or cause irritation

   Well, I guess my English is not good enough to tell the subtle
   difference in tones, but his comments often sound that "You AGIers are
   so obviously wrong that I don't even bother to understand what you are
   saying ... Now let me tell you ...".

   I don't enjoy this tone.

   Pei




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--
Ben Goertzel, PhD
CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
Director of Research, SIAI
b...@goertzel.org

"I intend to live forever, or die trying."
-- Groucho Marx


agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription



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