Re: BUS: Proposal: Less Strict Faking

[Nic Evans]

If I can, I withdraw the proposal "Less Strict Faking". Thank you and
sorry to anyone who lost shinies pending it. (Especially since I
realized I had 5 shinies after I asked people to pend it.)

I'm currently rethinking not only this but the entire criminal justice
proposal. I do believe we need robust systems to deal with disruption,
that explicit reprimand is a useful tool, and that ameliorative
intervention (like tort law) is productive. But I question the
effectiveness of the current Card system, and I worry about the
direction of my own proposal; a complex criminal system surely wouldn't
look welcoming to newcomers, and might cause as much grief as it intends
to solve. Maybe I've taken a dark turn there.

I think that Justice, in general, can use three tools: Punishment,
Rehabilitation, and Remedy. I think the first is the easiest to jump to
but also the least useful. Exclusionary punishment (limiting voting
power, CFJs, and even banishment) can prevent specific attacks but does
little to decrease the malice of an aggravated person and frequently
alienates the simply belligerent.

Rehabilitation already exists in the current system, and I think all of
us have been pleasantly surprised at its success: Apologies. Maybe a
future criminal system should focus more closely on this. Maybe ALL
punishments should be reducable with Rehabilitory steps.

Remedy is essentially all of tort law, and doesn't currently exist. If
we continue with pledges, orgs, and assets we definitely need it. But
like Punishment, it does little to enlighten or improve the mood of the
offender, and should be used when it helps to provide an overall sense
of fairness to the community.


On 07/13/17 15:37, Nic Evans wrote:
> I submit the following proposal:
>
> Title: Less Strict Faking
> AI: 1
> Author: nichdel
> Co-authors:
>
> Amend R2471 (No Faking) to read:
>
> A person SHALL NOT attempt to perform an action which e does not believe
> to be possible so as to deceive others.
>




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BUS: Kickstart the new Economy

[Nic Evans]

I intent, with 24 hours notice, to create the organization Agoran Stamps
and Awards Association and set its charter to the following:

Agoran Stamps and Awards Association

Boilerplate
---

An amendment to this Organization is Appropriate if intent to perform
it was announced between 4 and 14 days ago, and no members of the
Organization have publicly objected to it since.

For the purposes of this charter, 'ASaAA' refers to this Organization
and 'member' refers to any member of this Organization. 'Proxies' are an
imaginary asset tracked by the Organization and only changeable,
transferable or otherwise manipulable as defined in this charter.

While there is no asset named 'Stamps', the remainder of this charter is
void and has no effect.

ASaAA Sessions
-

By default, the ASaAA is in an Open Session.

During an Open Session, any member may pay the ASaAA any number of
shinies to receive the same number of ASaAA Proxies.

During an Open Session, any member may transfer one Stamp to the ASaAA
and, on behalf of the ASaAA, transfer all the ASaAA's shinies to emself
by announcement. When this happens the ASaAA Open Session ends and an
ASaAA Voting Session begins.

During an ASaAA Voting Session, each member may vote for any member(s)
any number of times and in any combination as long as eir total votes do
not exceed eir current number of Proxies.

An ASaAA Voting Session ends after 3 days. When an ASaAA Voting Session
has ended, any member may, on behalf of the ASaAA, transfer any Stamp
the ASaAA has to the member who received the most votes, by
announcement. Once a Stamp has been successfully transfered, all
persons' have 0 Proxies and a new Open Session begins.




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Re: BUS: Organization: Agoran Estate Bloc

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2017-07-21 at 14:40 -0500, Nic Evans wrote:
> As will be mentioned below, this charter doesn't stop CEOs from
> violating SHALLs and so I think the CEO can just refuse to ever
> assess.

Right, an Organization isn't a Contract or a Pledge, although people
seem to be using it as one.

The intended use of Organizations was that people are punished via
increasing their Expenditure and/or preventing them from leaving, as a
method of creating an Expenditure economy. People don't seem to
actually be using them like that, though.

(Theory about Agora: no matter how you try to design the actual rules
around an agreement-like system, people will attempt to force it to act
like a contract. We've already seen that with Agencies that create
pledges, which is pretty much a pure contract-equivalent. It happened
with Promises too.)

-- 
ais523

Re: BUS: Organization: Agoran Estate Bloc

[Nic Evans]

On 07/21/17 10:58, grok (caleb vines) wrote:
> this seems fun so i'm going to try it.
>
> I intend, with 24 hours' notice, to create the organization Agoran
> Estate Bloc and flip its Charter switch to the following:
>
> Agoran Estate Bloc (AEB)
>
> ==BOILERPLATE==
>
> An amendment to this Organization is Appropriate if intent to perform
> it was announced between 4 and 14 days ago, and there are not two
> objections or or one objection from the acting CEO.
>
> All actions described by this Charter and pertaining to Organizations
> are limited in scope to this Organization.
>
> All references of "AEB" in this document refer to Agoran Estate Bloc.
> All instances of "member" in this document refer to members of AEB.
>
> Any player may become a member of AEB by setting eir budget switch for
> the pair of em and AEB to 25. Any player may leave AEB by setting eir
> budget switch for the pair of em and AEB to 0.
>
> All actions taken in this charter MUST be performed publicly unless
> otherwise stated. Actions using powers vested by this charter that are
> not announced publicly may be ineffective.
>
> ==LEADERSHIP==
>
> The CEO switch is a switch managed by AEB and tracked by the acting
> CEO with valid values of the names of all members and 0, and default
> value 0. When AEB is created, the CEO switch is flipped to "grok".
>
> The Interim CEO switch is a switch managed by AEB and tracked by the
> acting CEO with valid values of the names of all members and 0, and
> default value 0.
>
> At the beginning of the second week of each month, the acting CEO
> SHALL initiate an AEB Board Election with a voting period of at least
> 4 days and no longer than 7 days. All members in Good Standing or on
> Official Warning at the calling of each AEB Board Election are
> eligible voters and valid selections for that AEB Board Election. At
> the end of each AEB Board Election, if there is a clear winner, the
> winner of the AEB Board Election SHALL flip the CEO switch to eir own
> name.

Is there an enforceable punishment for ignoring a SHALL in an org? I
know this org includes one (with its own flaws below), but is there a
default?

> In the event of a tie, the acting CEO SHALL initiate an AEB Instant
> Run-Off Election immediately, with a voting period of at least 4 days
> and no longer than 7 days. The set of valid voting selections is equal
> to the set of players who recieved the most votes in the most recent
> AEB Board Election, and all members in Good Standing or on Official
> Warning are eligible votesr. If an AEB Instant Run-Off Election is
> held and there is a clear winner, the winner of the AEB Instant
> Run-Off Election SHALL flip the CEO switch to eir own name.

Why not always do it IRV instead of two-step?

>
> If there is no clear winner following an AEB Instant Run-Off Election
> and the CEO switch is not set to 0, the current CEO remains the CEO
> until the results of the next AEB Board Election are assessed.
>
> The acting CEO is the assessor for all AEB voting procedure.

As will be mentioned below, this charter doesn't stop CEOs from
violating SHALLs and so I think the CEO can just refuse to ever assess.

> At the beginning of the second week of each Agoran month, the acting
> CEO SHALL report on the status of every switch created by AEB's
> charter. The acting CEO is ENCOURAGED to provide this report in the
> same message in which e initiates an AEB Board Election.
>
> ==STANDING AND FUNDING==
>
> Standing is a set of switches belonging to (AEB, Member) pairs with a
> default value of Good Standing and legal values of the set [Good
> Standing,Official Warning,Suspended,Idle]. All Standing switches are
> tracked by the acting CEO.
>
> At the beginning of each Agoran month, each member MAY pay five
> shinies to AEB in a timely manner. If a member does, e may flip the
> Standing switch for the pair of emself and AEB to Good Standing if it
> is not already set to Good Standing and eir Standing switch may not be
> flipped again this month.
>
> At the beginning of each Agoran month, if a member's Standing switch
> is set to Good Standing and that player does not pay five shinies to
> AEB in a timely manner, any member MAY flip the Standing switch for
> the pair of the offending player and AEB to Official Warning.
>
> At the beginning of each Agoran month, if a member's Standing switch
> is set to Official Warning and that player does not pay five shinies
> to AEB in a timely manner, any member MAY flip the Standing switch for
> the pair of the offending player and AEB to to Suspended.
>
> If the Standing switch for the pair of a member and AEB is set to
> Suspended, that player may pay ten shinies to AEB at any time. If e
> does, e MAY flip the Standing switch for the pair of emself and AEB to
> Good Standing.

Weirdly I think this makes Official Warning a worse punishment. After
you get flipped to it (ie, after 'a timely manner') you can't pay the
normal 5 and you can't pay the 10 that you can pay for 

BUS: Organization: Agoran Estate Bloc

[grok (caleb vines)]

this seems fun so i'm going to try it.

I intend, with 24 hours' notice, to create the organization Agoran
Estate Bloc and flip its Charter switch to the following:

Agoran Estate Bloc (AEB)

==BOILERPLATE==

An amendment to this Organization is Appropriate if intent to perform
it was announced between 4 and 14 days ago, and there are not two
objections or or one objection from the acting CEO.

All actions described by this Charter and pertaining to Organizations
are limited in scope to this Organization.

All references of "AEB" in this document refer to Agoran Estate Bloc.
All instances of "member" in this document refer to members of AEB.

Any player may become a member of AEB by setting eir budget switch for
the pair of em and AEB to 25. Any player may leave AEB by setting eir
budget switch for the pair of em and AEB to 0.

All actions taken in this charter MUST be performed publicly unless
otherwise stated. Actions using powers vested by this charter that are
not announced publicly may be ineffective.

==LEADERSHIP==

The CEO switch is a switch managed by AEB and tracked by the acting
CEO with valid values of the names of all members and 0, and default
value 0. When AEB is created, the CEO switch is flipped to "grok".

The Interim CEO switch is a switch managed by AEB and tracked by the
acting CEO with valid values of the names of all members and 0, and
default value 0.

At the beginning of the second week of each month, the acting CEO
SHALL initiate an AEB Board Election with a voting period of at least
4 days and no longer than 7 days. All members in Good Standing or on
Official Warning at the calling of each AEB Board Election are
eligible voters and valid selections for that AEB Board Election. At
the end of each AEB Board Election, if there is a clear winner, the
winner of the AEB Board Election SHALL flip the CEO switch to eir own
name.

In the event of a tie, the acting CEO SHALL initiate an AEB Instant
Run-Off Election immediately, with a voting period of at least 4 days
and no longer than 7 days. The set of valid voting selections is equal
to the set of players who recieved the most votes in the most recent
AEB Board Election, and all members in Good Standing or on Official
Warning are eligible votesr. If an AEB Instant Run-Off Election is
held and there is a clear winner, the winner of the AEB Instant
Run-Off Election SHALL flip the CEO switch to eir own name.

If there is no clear winner following an AEB Instant Run-Off Election
and the CEO switch is not set to 0, the current CEO remains the CEO
until the results of the next AEB Board Election are assessed.

The acting CEO is the assessor for all AEB voting procedure.

At the beginning of the second week of each Agoran month, the acting
CEO SHALL report on the status of every switch created by AEB's
charter. The acting CEO is ENCOURAGED to provide this report in the
same message in which e initiates an AEB Board Election.

==STANDING AND FUNDING==

Standing is a set of switches belonging to (AEB, Member) pairs with a
default value of Good Standing and legal values of the set [Good
Standing,Official Warning,Suspended,Idle]. All Standing switches are
tracked by the acting CEO.

At the beginning of each Agoran month, each member MAY pay five
shinies to AEB in a timely manner. If a member does, e may flip the
Standing switch for the pair of emself and AEB to Good Standing if it
is not already set to Good Standing and eir Standing switch may not be
flipped again this month.

At the beginning of each Agoran month, if a member's Standing switch
is set to Good Standing and that player does not pay five shinies to
AEB in a timely manner, any member MAY flip the Standing switch for
the pair of the offending player and AEB to Official Warning.

At the beginning of each Agoran month, if a member's Standing switch
is set to Official Warning and that player does not pay five shinies
to AEB in a timely manner, any member MAY flip the Standing switch for
the pair of the offending player and AEB to to Suspended.

If the Standing switch for the pair of a member and AEB is set to
Suspended, that player may pay ten shinies to AEB at any time. If e
does, e MAY flip the Standing switch for the pair of emself and AEB to
Good Standing.

If a member did not vote on the last Agoran Decision, the acting CEO
may flip the Standing switch for the pair of that member and AEB to
Idle. The next time that player votes on an Agoran Decision, e may
Invoke AEB Privilege and pledge not to change eir vote on a specific
voting matter. If e does, the CEO may flip the Standing switch for the
pair of that player and AEB to the value it had before it was most
recently set to Idle.

A player's Standing switch may only be flipped once per month unless
it is flipped by a Suspended player paying ten shinies to AEB.

==EXPULSION==

Expulsion is a set of switches belonging to (AEB, Player) pairs with a
default value of 0 and legal values of the set [0,Expelled]. All
Expulsion switches are 

Re: BUS: Small round trip

[Cuddle Beam]

I deregister.

> El 21 jul 2017, a las 7:53, Cuddle Beam  escribió:
> 
> I'm a bit embarrassed about everything going on, so I'll deregister.
> 
> In my defense for the latest thing, I did take a situation which is entirely 
> innocuous to the rest of the game (trust tokens, who uses them? And even 
> then, you could still issue them yourself whenever. No urgency or significant 
> connection to everything else, unless you make it so.) and I did put a 
> warning that it was exotic territory: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg28889.html, and 
> I repeated it as I discussed it.
> 
> So, I was aware that it deviant. That's why I made it separate and I put a 
> notice about it in the first place. But then it started to escalate and I 
> don't mind when its limited to the lounge of talking about what I've brought 
> up, but then it started to spill everywhere else somehow, and that wasn't my 
> intent.
> 
> I tried for it to be separate from everyone else's concerns and whoever was 
> interested in it, could participate, with me deliberately choosing a 
> situation that I believed that pretty much anyone not into it could just 
> ignore. That's why I chose that compartmentalized situation it and added 
> frequent notices that yes, I'm going pretty off-shore with what I'm using as 
> premises. Or maybe trying to do stuff like that doesn't work at all at the 
> Agoran context. At least, for me personally, it does work. I ignore pretty 
> much everything except replies on my own things on a-b, for example. And I 
> haven't read any of the discussion about the economy or all of those 
> doohickeys, because whatever result about that will be cool with me. But 
> maybe its not the same for everyone else. 
> 
> If I'm guilty of using deviant interpretation, sure. That was what I was 
> using. I already know that it has an extremely low chance of being broadly 
> taken as correct, because it uses a set of "axioms" (which are arbitrary), 
> which don't have much in common with the majority. But while it has that 
> extremely low chance - if by some feat of skill, discovery and luck, I 
> actually *do* make it work, then whoa. That makes it worthwhile for me. 
> Proving the impossible.
> 
> But oh well. I think its better for the both of us if I dereg for now. I do 
> enjoy discussing things with several people here, perhaps once I learn to how 
> to better separate the shell from the oyster we can dine on good discussion 
> together here again.
> 
> (and I'll go and suck on my shells somewhere else lol).

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Small round trip

[V.J Rada]

CFJ: (at the time of calling) Cuddlebeam is a player.

Are "I'll deregister" and "I think its better for the both of us if I dereg
for now."
unambiguous intent to deregister?

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Alex Smith 
wrote:

> On Thu, 2017-07-20 at 22:57 -0700, Aris Merchant wrote:
> > I have no clue what the appropriate response is, so I'm just going to
> > restrict this to a technical point (note that I take no game actions
> > in this message): you have to actually say "I deregister".
>
> Or to clarify: you don't have to use that exact wording, but you do
> have to clearly state that you deregister.
>
> "I'll deregister" = "I will deregister" is ambiguous as to the timing,
> so it doesn't fulfil the conditions to be a valid action by
> announcement. (In general, you can't perform actions at future times
> anyway, even if the time is specified unambiguously.)
>
> --
> ais523
>