Re: DIS: What's the Power of a cultural touchstone?

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:

I propose that the use of Spivak pronouns, and the use of English, are 
cultural norms entrenched so deeply that, in a conflict between the 
rules of Agora and these norms, players will defer to those norms. That 
suggests that _changing_ those norms - formalizing the role of various 
languages, changing pronoun conventions, and so on - can be done, but 
not through the Agora rule-making process. Furthermore, it also suggests 
that the rules can _at most_ recognize those norms, but not enshrine or 
override them.


I don't think the language norms are anywhere strong enough to overrule an 
_explicit_ restriction in the rules, if there were any. They might, 
however, act to prevent interpreting rules from _implicitly_ creating such 
a restriction.


Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Josh T]

I just wanted to mention that I have an alternate stamp proposal which I
haven't quite had the time to flesh out, but it should be reasonably easy
to change to if I write things carefully.

天火狐

On 30 June 2017 at 09:45, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> If you increase AP to 5 per week, I will pend it.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Jun 30, 2017, at 6:46 AM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> >
> > Oops, I forgot to change everyone's balance.
> >
> > Also if there's no substantial problems noticed, I'd really appreciate
> > having this pended before the next proposal pool (I don't have any
> > shinies).
> >
> > I withdraw Economics Overhaul.
> >
> > I submit the following proposal:
> >
> > -
> >
> > Title: Economics Overhaul v2
> > AI: 2.0
> > Author: nichdel
> > Co-authors: o, grok, Aris
> >
> > Repeal R2484 "Payday".
> >
> > Amend the rule titled "Assets" by, after the paragraph that starts with
> > "An asset generally CAN be transferred", adding:
> >
> >   When a rule indicates transfering an amount that is not a natural
> >   number, the specified amount is rounded up to the nearest natural
> >   number.
> >
> > And by, after the paragraph that starts "The "x balance of an entity"",
> > adding:
> >
> >   When a player causes one or more balances to change, e is ENCOURAGED
> >   to specify the resulting balance(s). Players SHOULD NOT specify
> >   inaccurate balances.
> >
> > {Just intended to make balance tracking easier inbetween Secretary
> > reports}
> >
> > Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Rewards" with the following text:
> >
> >   A Reward is a specified amount of shinies associated with a Reward
> >   Condition. For each time a player meets a Reward Condition, e MAY
> >   claim the specified award exactly once within 24 hours of meeting the
> >   Reward Condition.
> >
> >   When a player 'claims' a Reward, Agora transfers the specified number
> >   of shinies to the player.
> >
> >   Below is an exhaustive list of Reward Conditions and eir rewards:
> >
> >  * The following two only apply to proposals that were pended via
> >  spending shinies:
> >
> > - Being the author of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
> > Floating Value.
> >
> > - Being the pender of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
> > Floating Value.
> >
> >  * Judging a CFJ, that was created via spending shinies, that e was
> >  assigned to: 1/20th the current Floating Value.
> >
> >  * Publishing a duty-fulfilling report: 5 shinies.
> >
> >  * Resolving an Agoran Decision for the first time this week: 5
> >  shinies.
> >
> > Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Floating Value" with the following text:
> >
> >   Floating Value is a natural switch. When e publishes eir Weekly
> >   Report, the Secretary SHALL flip the Floating Value to Agora's shiny
> >   balance.
> >
> > Set every players's shiny balance to 0.
> >
> > Set Agora's shiny balance to 1000.
> >
> > Set the Floating Value to 200.
> >
> > Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Economic Wins" with the following text:
> >
> >   Stamps are an asset, identified by eir creator and tracked by the
> >   Secretary.
> >
> >   The Stamp Value is always 1/5th the current Floating Value.
> >
> >   Once per month, a player MAY, by announcement, transfer to Agora the
> >   Stamp Value, in shinies, to create a Stamp.
> >
> >   Players MAY, by announcement, destroy a Stamp and cause Agora to
> >   transfer the Stamp Value, in shinies, to em.
> >
> >   While a player has Stamps made by at least 10 different players e MAY
> >   destroy 10 stamps made by 10 different players by announcement to win
> >   the game.
> >
> > Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Welcome Packages" with the following text:
> >
> >   If a player has not received a Welcome Package since e most recently
> >   registered, any player MAY cause em to receive one by announcement.
> >
> >   When a player receives a Welcome Package, Agora transfers 50 shinies
> >   to em.
> >
> > Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Action Points" with the following text:
> >
> >   At the beginning of every Agoran Week, every player has 2 Action
> >   Points. When a player 'spends' an Action Point, e has one less
> >   Action Point. If a player has 0 Action Points, e may not spend any
> >   more Action Points, rules to the contrary notwithstanding.
> >
> > Amend R2445 "How to Pend a Proposal" to read, in full:
> >
> >   Imminence is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
> >   proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "pending" or
> >   "not pending" (default).
> >
> >   Any player CAN flip a specified proposal's imminence to "pending" by
> >   announcement by:
> >
> >  a) spending 1 Action Point, OR
> >
> >  b) spending 1/20th the Floating Value in shinies.
> >
> > Amend R991 "Calls for Judgment" by replacing the first paragaraph 

Re: Re: DIS: What's the Power of a cultural touchstone?

[Kerim Aydin]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2017, Ørjan Johansen wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2017, CuddleBeam wrote:
> 
> > Makes for an interesting example to compare Agora to. I'll see if I can
> > dredge the webmail archives to see how Agoran use of Spivak has arisen and
> > evolved. Culture is interesting.
> 
> Spivak use was already in Agora's original ruleset
> (), although only in
> a few rules. It arose in Agora's predecessor Nomic World - if you search for
> archived Nomic World rulesets, I vaguely recall some of the older ones don't
> have it.

Douglas Hofstadter has an impassioned chapter in Metamagical Themas about 
gender-
neutral language.  Since that's what brought many people to nomic in those days,
I do know that in NW it was a conscious homage to em.  I remember Steve was a
strong and early champion, can't remember if e was the originator.   -G.

DIS: Re: BUS: Birthday celebration thread

[Kerim Aydin]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2017, Ørjan Johansen wrote:
> Greetings,
> Ørjan, who was strongly considering using some other language before seeing
> G.'s message.

Oh dear,

Apologies Ørjan, I wasn't trying to rid us of free expression in multiple 
languages,
that would not be good at all.  I mainly want to make sure there's clear and 
limited
legal effects so we're not having to worry about Objecting to things we can't 
read.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[omd]

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 1:15 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 wrote:
> If you have a non-Spivak, gender-neutral, identity-neutral form of pronouns, 
> I would be happy to take you up on learning it. Inclusivity is making 
> everyone feel included and we can do that by using language that makes them 
> feel comfortable.

FWIW, my impression as a US resident is that increasing societal
acceptance of, and preference for, the singular 'they' is slowly
making Spivak redundant.

Re: DIS: testing mailman 3

[omd]

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 8:37 AM, Aris Merchant
 wrote:
> Big question that determines my opinion on all of this: would our
> current style of web interface still be available? My mailer doesn't
> like to give me plain text input, so when I need to see it I use the
> site. I'm also just used to the way things are, and don't want change.
> :)

Assuming you're talking about the archive on agoranomic.org rather
than mail-archive.com:

Not without somewhat elaborate effort, but I suppose I could set up a
fake Mailman 2 list with the list address subscribed to the real list,
just for you…

But the new interface should be objectively faster to navigate in most
respects.  It doesn't require login, it has full text search
(nonfunctional in the test site, but I will make sure it's working and
fast), and it puts a lot more on one page - a whole thread, plus the
list of monthly archive links on the left rather than as a separate
page.  It also has a download link that can get the true full version
of a given message (including headers), rather than requiring
downloading the whole month's mbox.

It does use a variable-width font by default (with a button to toggle
to fixed-width), but I can easily change that.  Probably should.

(You're not using the Gmail web interface, right?)

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: Birthday celebration thread

[Aaron Goldfein]

On Thursday, June 29, 2017, Alex Smith  wrote:

> On Thu, 2017-06-29 at 13:43 -0700, Aaron Goldfein wrote:
> > Happy 24th birthday to Agora!
>
> I award Yally a Magenta Ribbon. (That is your Agora nickname, right?)
>
> --
> ais523
>

It is!

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[CuddleBeam]

>If you increase AP to 5 per week, I will pend it.


I agree with that that would be a good change, but given that there
would be rewards for making/pending/etc adopted proposals, I'd prefer
to keep this good idea for later to reap shinies with it.


Seems like a reasonable strategy. Leave bad things inside, propose
fixes which will very likely get adopted, reap rewards (I kinda
pointed this phenomenon already a while ago, about how rewarding
proposal stuff will give traction to farming proposals, but oh well.
I'm enthusiastic to see to see how the metagame changes with these new
mechanics).

DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[CuddleBeam]

>I'd really appreciate having this pended before the next proposal pool

>(I don't have any shinies).


Pending price was 6 shinies, yeah?.Or something.

I pay the amount necessary to get this pended. (I should have 14 shinies).

Give me the money back or something lol if the proposal fails lol, Nic, but
it looks good. I'd FOR.

DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

If you increase AP to 5 per week, I will pend it.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 30, 2017, at 6:46 AM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> 
> Oops, I forgot to change everyone's balance.
> 
> Also if there's no substantial problems noticed, I'd really appreciate
> having this pended before the next proposal pool (I don't have any
> shinies).
> 
> I withdraw Economics Overhaul.
> 
> I submit the following proposal:
> 
> -
> 
> Title: Economics Overhaul v2
> AI: 2.0
> Author: nichdel
> Co-authors: o, grok, Aris
> 
> Repeal R2484 "Payday".
> 
> Amend the rule titled "Assets" by, after the paragraph that starts with
> "An asset generally CAN be transferred", adding:
> 
>   When a rule indicates transfering an amount that is not a natural
>   number, the specified amount is rounded up to the nearest natural
>   number.
> 
> And by, after the paragraph that starts "The "x balance of an entity"",
> adding:
> 
>   When a player causes one or more balances to change, e is ENCOURAGED
>   to specify the resulting balance(s). Players SHOULD NOT specify
>   inaccurate balances.
> 
> {Just intended to make balance tracking easier inbetween Secretary
> reports}
> 
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Rewards" with the following text:
> 
>   A Reward is a specified amount of shinies associated with a Reward
>   Condition. For each time a player meets a Reward Condition, e MAY
>   claim the specified award exactly once within 24 hours of meeting the
>   Reward Condition.
> 
>   When a player 'claims' a Reward, Agora transfers the specified number
>   of shinies to the player.
> 
>   Below is an exhaustive list of Reward Conditions and eir rewards:
> 
>  * The following two only apply to proposals that were pended via
>  spending shinies:
> 
> - Being the author of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
> Floating Value.
> 
> - Being the pender of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
> Floating Value.
> 
>  * Judging a CFJ, that was created via spending shinies, that e was
>  assigned to: 1/20th the current Floating Value.
> 
>  * Publishing a duty-fulfilling report: 5 shinies.
> 
>  * Resolving an Agoran Decision for the first time this week: 5
>  shinies.
> 
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Floating Value" with the following text:
> 
>   Floating Value is a natural switch. When e publishes eir Weekly
>   Report, the Secretary SHALL flip the Floating Value to Agora's shiny
>   balance.
> 
> Set every players's shiny balance to 0.
> 
> Set Agora's shiny balance to 1000.
> 
> Set the Floating Value to 200.
> 
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Economic Wins" with the following text:
> 
>   Stamps are an asset, identified by eir creator and tracked by the
>   Secretary.
> 
>   The Stamp Value is always 1/5th the current Floating Value.
> 
>   Once per month, a player MAY, by announcement, transfer to Agora the
>   Stamp Value, in shinies, to create a Stamp.
> 
>   Players MAY, by announcement, destroy a Stamp and cause Agora to
>   transfer the Stamp Value, in shinies, to em.
> 
>   While a player has Stamps made by at least 10 different players e MAY
>   destroy 10 stamps made by 10 different players by announcement to win
>   the game.
> 
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Welcome Packages" with the following text:
> 
>   If a player has not received a Welcome Package since e most recently
>   registered, any player MAY cause em to receive one by announcement.
> 
>   When a player receives a Welcome Package, Agora transfers 50 shinies
>   to em.
> 
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Action Points" with the following text:
> 
>   At the beginning of every Agoran Week, every player has 2 Action
>   Points. When a player 'spends' an Action Point, e has one less
>   Action Point. If a player has 0 Action Points, e may not spend any
>   more Action Points, rules to the contrary notwithstanding.
> 
> Amend R2445 "How to Pend a Proposal" to read, in full:
> 
>   Imminence is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
>   proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "pending" or
>   "not pending" (default).
> 
>   Any player CAN flip a specified proposal's imminence to "pending" by
>   announcement by:
> 
>  a) spending 1 Action Point, OR
> 
>  b) spending 1/20th the Floating Value in shinies.
> 
> Amend R991 "Calls for Judgment" by replacing the first paragaraph with
> the following:
> 
>   Any person (the initiator) can initiate a Call for Judgement (CFJ,
>   syn. Judicial Case), specifying a statement to be inquired into:
> 
>  a) by announcement, and spending 1 Action Point, OR
> 
>  b) by announcement, and spending 1/20th the Floating Value in
>  shinies, OR
> 
>  c) by announcement if e is not a player.
> 
>   When a person initiates a Call for Judgment, e may optionally bar one
>   person from the case.
> 
> 



signature.asc
Description: Message signed 

DIS: Win Auctions

[CuddleBeam]

I had in mind a scam for the upcoming Estate Auction.

I bid some sufficiently large and intimidating amount of shinies (even if I
don't have them, the point is to just win the auction because people are
hopefully not aware of this scam. And yes, I'm telling the scam out loud
here now lol).

Then, in the last moment, I bid 1 shinies.

I'd win the auction because I'd have bid the most amount of shinies but I'd
only need to pay 1 shiny, as its my most recent bid.

Re: Re: DIS: What's the Power of a cultural touchstone?

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2017-06-30 at 10:12 +0100, V.J Rada wrote:
>   [...] the game ends, with
>   no provision for starting another game.
> 
> Um...glad this no longer exists lmao

Nomic was originally intended as a game that works like a game, which
would be played for a bit and then complete. However, it was also
envisaged so that /any/ aspect of it could be changed.

In order to become long-running, a nomic typically has to amend its
victory rules so that winning the game doesn't cause it to end. It's
actually fairly recently that this was added explicitly to Agora's
rules (as the last sentence of the paragraph of rule 101, which is a
nicely symbolic place to put it); before then, we had to rely on ad-hoc 
mentions in rules and occasionally on rules 217/1698. Making it
explicit was definitely a good decision.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Birthday celebration thread

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2017-06-30 at 17:16 +1200, V.J Rada wrote:
> I wish Agora a happy birthday.
> I award myself a magenta ribbon.
> 
> too late?

It was in time.

-- 
ais523

Re: Re: DIS: What's the Power of a cultural touchstone?

[V.J Rada]

  If a player believes that the rules are such that further play is
  impossible, or that the legality of a move cannot be determined with
  finality, or that a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the
  player may invoke judgement on a statement to that effect.  If the
  statement is judged TRUE, then the player who invoked judgement
  shall be declared the winner of that game, and the game ends, with
  no provision for starting another game.
This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the
  winner of the game.


Um...glad this no longer exists lmao

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:

> On Fri, 30 Jun 2017, CuddleBeam wrote:
>
> Makes for an interesting example to compare Agora to. I'll see if I can
>> dredge the webmail archives to see how Agoran use of Spivak has arisen and
>> evolved. Culture is interesting.
>>
>
> Spivak use was already in Agora's original ruleset (<
> http://www.fysh.org/~zefram/agora/chuck0_nr_19930630.txt>), although only
> in a few rules. It arose in Agora's predecessor Nomic World - if you search
> for archived Nomic World rulesets, I vaguely recall some of the older ones
> don't have it.
>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.

Re: Re: DIS: What's the Power of a cultural touchstone?

[V.J Rada]

Not everything has to be a rule. Spivak can be encouraged but should not be
mandated or prohibited. It's just language. There's also nothing banning me
from saying plenty of words here, but that doesn't mean they're encouraged
or allowed.

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 9:31 AM, CuddleBeam 
wrote:

> Issues about why Spivak is better or not aside, I got curious about why
> BlogNomic favors using layman language (it seems goes in hand with it being
> a much more casual nomic), versus Agora leaning towards Spivak, so I did a
> bit of digging.
>
> Apparently, there HAS been a time in Blognomic where Spivak use was
> compulsory as per a rule (which I agree to be the proper way to recognize
> that it should be widespread used), from "Proposal: Spivak", here:
> http://blogspot.blognomic.com/2005_04_24_blognomic_archive.html.
>
> However, it got later repealed here, at "Spivak Attack":
> https://blognomic.com/archive/spivak_attack , and the clause to be able
> to supersede Spivak has remained since, for more than a decade.
>
> I find very surprising how an early proposal has affected Blognomic's
> culture in regard to that so much - since it seemed that it would also
> become a Spivak-user, yet that course was changed early to become a
> "Layman" pronoun-user and it seems to have matured into staying so.
>
> Makes for an interesting example to compare Agora to. I'll see if I can
> dredge the webmail archives to see how Agoran use of Spivak has arisen and
> evolved. Culture is interesting.
>

Re: Re: DIS: What's the Power of a cultural touchstone?

[CuddleBeam]

Issues about why Spivak is better or not aside, I got curious about why
BlogNomic favors using layman language (it seems goes in hand with it being
a much more casual nomic), versus Agora leaning towards Spivak, so I did a
bit of digging.

Apparently, there HAS been a time in Blognomic where Spivak use was
compulsory as per a rule (which I agree to be the proper way to recognize
that it should be widespread used), from "Proposal: Spivak", here:
http://blogspot.blognomic.com/2005_04_24_blognomic_archive.html.

However, it got later repealed here, at "Spivak Attack":
https://blognomic.com/archive/spivak_attack , and the clause to be able to
supersede Spivak has remained since, for more than a decade.

I find very surprising how an early proposal has affected Blognomic's
culture in regard to that so much - since it seemed that it would also
become a Spivak-user, yet that course was changed early to become a
"Layman" pronoun-user and it seems to have matured into staying so.

Makes for an interesting example to compare Agora to. I'll see if I can
dredge the webmail archives to see how Agoran use of Spivak has arisen and
evolved. Culture is interesting.

DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Aris Merchant]

Do you want this proposal in this week's report (due any day now), or would
you like to save it for next week's?

-Aris

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 6:39 PM Nic Evans  wrote:

> Features:
>
>- CFJs and Proposals can be made by spending shinies OR by using AP.
>AP works like SP, each player getting 2 non-accruing AP a week.
>Actions taken using AP can't award shinies, so there's reasons to not
>use your AP.
>
>- Shinies can be used to buy Stamps. Possessing Stamps made by 10
>different players allows you to win.
>
>- Players claim shinies for meeting conditions, rather than being
>given them by Secretary. This stops inactive players from accruing
>them and eases the Secretary's load.
>
>- Costs and Payouts for several things are based on Floating Value.
>FV changes weekly and is based on Agora's balance. This allows both
>price speculation and manipulation, but indirectly and distributed
>enough to not be completely controllable.
>
>- Welcome Packages, which right now just get players started in the
>economy but could eventually be used to give other assets as well.
>
>
> I submit the following proposal:
>
> -
>
> Title: Economics Overhaul
> AI: 2.0
> Author: nichdel
> Co-authors: o, grok, Aris
>
> Repeal R2484 "Payday".
>
> Amend the rule titled "Assets" by, after the paragraph that starts with
> "An asset generally CAN be transferred", adding:
>
>When a rule indicates transfering an amount that is not a natural
>number, the specified amount is rounded up to the nearest natural
>number.
>
> And by, after the paragraph that starts "The "x balance of an entity"",
> adding:
>
>When a player causes one or more balances to change, e is ENCOURAGED
>to specify the resulting balance(s). Players SHOULD NOT specify
>inaccurate balances.
>
> {Just intended to make balance tracking easier inbetween Secretary
> reports}
>
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Rewards" with the following text:
>
>A Reward is a specified amount of shinies associated with a Reward
>Condition. For each time a player meets a Reward Condition, e MAY
>claim the specified award exactly once within 24 hours of meeting the
>Reward Condition.
>
>When a player 'claims' a Reward, Agora transfers the specified number
>of shinies to the player.
>
>Below is an exhaustive list of Reward Conditions and eir rewards:
>
>   * The following two only apply to proposals that were pended via
>   spending shinies:
>
>  - Being the author of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
>  Floating Value.
>
>  - Being the pender of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
>  Floating Value.
>
>   * Judging a CFJ, that was created via spending shinies, that e was
>   assigned to: 1/20th the current Floating Value.
>
>   * Publishing a duty-fulfilling report: 5 shinies.
>
>   * Resolving an Agoran Decision for the first time this week: 5
>   shinies.
>
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Floating Value" with the following text:
>
>Floating Value is a natural switch. When e publishes eir Weekly
>Report, the Secretary SHALL flip the Floating Value to Agora's shiny
>balance.
>
> Set the Floating Value to 200.
>
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Economic Wins" with the following text:
>
>Stamps are an asset, identified by eir creator and tracked by the
>Secretary.
>
>The Stamp Value is always 1/5th the current Floating Value.
>
>Once per month, a player MAY, by announcement, transfer to Agora the
>Stamp Value, in shinies, to create a Stamp.
>
>Players MAY, by announcement, destroy a Stamp and cause Agora to
>transfer the Stamp Value, in shinies, to em.
>
>While a player has Stamps made by at least 10 different players e MAY
>destroy 10 stamps made by 10 different players by announcement to win
>the game.
>
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Welcome Packages" with the following text:
>
>If a player has not received a Welcome Package since e most recently
>registered, any player MAY cause em to receive one by announcement.
>
>When a player receives a Welcome Package, Agora transfers 50 shinies
>to em.
>
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Action Points" with the following text:
>
>At the beginning of every Agoran Week, every player has 2 Action
>Points. When a player 'spends' an Action Point, e has one less
>Action Point. If a player has 0 Action Points, e may not spend any
>more Action Points, rules to the contrary notwithstanding.
>
> Amend R2445 "How to Pend a Proposal" to read, in full:
>
>Imminence is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
>proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "pending" or
>"not pending" (default).
>
>Any player CAN flip a specified proposal's imminence to "pending" by
>announcement by:
>
>   a) spending 1 Action Point, OR
>
>