DIS: Re: OFF: [Reportor] Get this information into your brain locations

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Jul 18, 2017, at 12:38 AM, V.J Rada  wrote:
> 
> Nichdel fixes judiciary
> He also fixed the economy last week. Easy game easy life.
> No but really he has a proto proposal (soon to pend) about
> shinies, making them more usable (and restricting CFJs a
> bit, and making proposals slightly easier to pend). He also
> has one about making the criminal justice system judicial
> again, it having sat in administrative hell for over three years

M’lud Herald, would you be opposed to a Patent Title for nichdel, in 
recognition of eir work drafting complete, clear, and effective rules for 
multiple complex systems? nichdel is largely to blame|thank for the current 
Economics rules, as well.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Payment

[V.J Rada]

Given that nothing we do here has any value and no real money is ever
exchanged I feel like a nickel's worth of shinies is not a statement that
can be made, the two things are not equivalent. Alternatively a nickel's
worth may be a non-transferable decimal quantity...

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 1:20 PM, Josh T  wrote:

> I'm pretty sure the "without warning" part can be easily fixed.
>
> 天火狐
>
> On 17 July 2017 at 23:12, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> I am extremely tempted to offer you a shiny for it, but I think my
>> partner might be a bit miffed if bread showed up in the post without
>> warning.
>>
>> -o
>>
>> On Jul 17, 2017, at 11:10 PM, grok (caleb vines) 
>> wrote:
>>
>> The theoretical answer is probably a function of known values, like the
>> price of an estate.
>>
>> For a practical answer, I have an extra loaf in my pantry I'd be willing
>> to mail out...
>>
>>
>> -grok
>>
>> On Jul 17, 2017 9:55 PM, "Owen Jacobson"  wrote:
>>
>> Indeed. What’s the price of bread?
>>
>> -o
>>
>> On Jul 17, 2017, at 10:54 PM, Josh T  wrote:
>>
>> I mean if I can buy the entire estate of Antegria for 50 cents, I think
>> 10 cents a month is a lot.
>>
>> 天火狐
>>
>> On 17 July 2017 at 22:50, Quazie  wrote:
>>
>>> If this CFJ is true then all officers work for a very low rate of ~10
>>> cents a month - which to me is bonkers.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 19:03 Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>>>
 On Jul 16, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Quazie  wrote:

 > I pay nichdel a nickel's worth of shinies for taking over as Assessor.

 I CFJ on the statement “A nickle’s worth of shinies is exactly 5
 shinies.”

 -o


>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Payment

[Josh T]

I'm pretty sure the "without warning" part can be easily fixed.

天火狐

On 17 July 2017 at 23:12, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> I am extremely tempted to offer you a shiny for it, but I think my partner
> might be a bit miffed if bread showed up in the post without warning.
>
> -o
>
> On Jul 17, 2017, at 11:10 PM, grok (caleb vines) 
> wrote:
>
> The theoretical answer is probably a function of known values, like the
> price of an estate.
>
> For a practical answer, I have an extra loaf in my pantry I'd be willing
> to mail out...
>
>
> -grok
>
> On Jul 17, 2017 9:55 PM, "Owen Jacobson"  wrote:
>
> Indeed. What’s the price of bread?
>
> -o
>
> On Jul 17, 2017, at 10:54 PM, Josh T  wrote:
>
> I mean if I can buy the entire estate of Antegria for 50 cents, I think 10
> cents a month is a lot.
>
> 天火狐
>
> On 17 July 2017 at 22:50, Quazie  wrote:
>
>> If this CFJ is true then all officers work for a very low rate of ~10
>> cents a month - which to me is bonkers.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 19:03 Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 16, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Quazie  wrote:
>>>
>>> > I pay nichdel a nickel's worth of shinies for taking over as Assessor.
>>>
>>> I CFJ on the statement “A nickle’s worth of shinies is exactly 5
>>> shinies.”
>>>
>>> -o
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Payment

[Owen Jacobson]

I am extremely tempted to offer you a shiny for it, but I think my partner 
might be a bit miffed if bread showed up in the post without warning.

-o

> On Jul 17, 2017, at 11:10 PM, grok (caleb vines)  wrote:
> 
> The theoretical answer is probably a function of known values, like the price 
> of an estate.
> 
> For a practical answer, I have an extra loaf in my pantry I'd be willing to 
> mail out...
> 
> 
> -grok
> 
> On Jul 17, 2017 9:55 PM, "Owen Jacobson"  > wrote:
> Indeed. What’s the price of bread?
> 
> -o
> 
>> On Jul 17, 2017, at 10:54 PM, Josh T > > wrote:
>> 
>> I mean if I can buy the entire estate of Antegria for 50 cents, I think 10 
>> cents a month is a lot.
>> 
>> 天火狐
>> 
>> On 17 July 2017 at 22:50, Quazie > > wrote:
>> If this CFJ is true then all officers work for a very low rate of ~10 cents 
>> a month - which to me is bonkers.
>> 
>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 19:03 Owen Jacobson > > wrote:
>> On Jul 16, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Quazie > > wrote:
>> 
>> > I pay nichdel a nickel's worth of shinies for taking over as Assessor.
>> 
>> I CFJ on the statement “A nickle’s worth of shinies is exactly 5 shinies.”
>> 
>> -o
>> 
>> 
> 
> 



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Payment

[grok (caleb vines)]

The theoretical answer is probably a function of known values, like the
price of an estate.

For a practical answer, I have an extra loaf in my pantry I'd be willing to
mail out...


-grok

On Jul 17, 2017 9:55 PM, "Owen Jacobson"  wrote:

Indeed. What’s the price of bread?

-o

On Jul 17, 2017, at 10:54 PM, Josh T  wrote:

I mean if I can buy the entire estate of Antegria for 50 cents, I think 10
cents a month is a lot.

天火狐

On 17 July 2017 at 22:50, Quazie  wrote:

> If this CFJ is true then all officers work for a very low rate of ~10
> cents a month - which to me is bonkers.
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 19:03 Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> On Jul 16, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Quazie  wrote:
>>
>> > I pay nichdel a nickel's worth of shinies for taking over as Assessor.
>>
>> I CFJ on the statement “A nickle’s worth of shinies is exactly 5 shinies.”
>>
>> -o
>>
>>

DIS: [Promotor] Not-so-weekly draft

[Aris Merchant]

Draft:

I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran
Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal
pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the
quorum is 3.0 and the valid options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is
also a valid vote).


ID Author(s)AI   Title   Pender  Pend fee
---
7867*  nichdel, [1] 2.0  Economics Overhaul v2   CB [2]  5 sh.
7868*  Murphy   3.0  Minor economic fixesMurphy  5 sh.

The proposal pool currently contains the following proposals:

ID Author(s)AI   Title
---
pp1nichdel  1.0  Less Strict Faking

Legend: * : Proposal is pending.

[1] o, grok, Aris
[2] CuddleBeam

The Pending List Price (PLP) is 5 shinies.

The full text of the aforementioned proposals is included below.

//
ID: 7867
Title: Title: Economics Overhaul v2
Adoption index: 2.0
Author: nichdel
Co-author(s): o, grok, Aris


Repeal R2484 "Payday".

Amend the rule titled "Assets" by, after the paragraph that starts with
"An asset generally CAN be transferred", adding:

   When a rule indicates transfering an amount that is not a natural
   number, the specified amount is rounded up to the nearest natural
   number.

And by, after the paragraph that starts "The "x balance of an entity"",
adding:

   When a player causes one or more balances to change, e is ENCOURAGED
   to specify the resulting balance(s). Players SHOULD NOT specify
   inaccurate balances.

{Just intended to make balance tracking easier inbetween Secretary
reports}

Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Rewards" with the following text:

   A Reward is a specified amount of shinies associated with a Reward
   Condition. For each time a player meets a Reward Condition, e MAY
   claim the specified award exactly once within 24 hours of meeting the
   Reward Condition.

   When a player 'claims' a Reward, Agora transfers the specified number
   of shinies to the player.

   Below is an exhaustive list of Reward Conditions and eir rewards:

  * The following two only apply to proposals that were pended via
  spending shinies:

 - Being the author of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
 Floating Value.

 - Being the pender of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
 Floating Value.

  * Judging a CFJ, that was created via spending shinies, that e was
  assigned to: 1/20th the current Floating Value.

  * Publishing a duty-fulfilling report: 5 shinies.

  * Resolving an Agoran Decision for the first time this week: 5
  shinies.

Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Floating Value" with the following text:

   Floating Value is a natural switch. When e publishes eir Weekly
   Report, the Secretary SHALL flip the Floating Value to Agora's shiny
   balance.

Set every players's shiny balance to 0.

Set Agora's shiny balance to 1000.

Set the Floating Value to 200.

Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Economic Wins" with the following text:

   Stamps are an asset, identified by eir creator and tracked by the
   Secretary.

   The Stamp Value is always 1/5th the current Floating Value.

   Once per month, a player MAY, by announcement, transfer to Agora the
   Stamp Value, in shinies, to create a Stamp.

   Players MAY, by announcement, destroy a Stamp and cause Agora to
   transfer the Stamp Value, in shinies, to em.

   While a player has Stamps made by at least 10 different players e MAY
   destroy 10 stamps made by 10 different players by announcement to win
   the game.

Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Welcome Packages" with the following text:

   If a player has not received a Welcome Package since e most recently
   registered, any player MAY cause em to receive one by announcement.

   When a player receives a Welcome Package, Agora transfers 50 shinies
   to em.

Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Action Points" with the following text:

   At the beginning of every Agoran Week, every player has 2 Action
   Points. When a player 'spends' an Action Point, e has one less
   Action Point. If a player has 0 Action Points, e may not spend any
   more Action Points, rules to the contrary notwithstanding.

Amend R2445 "How to Pend a Proposal" to read, in full:

   Imminence is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
   proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "pending" or
   "not pending" (default).

   Any player CAN flip a specified proposal's imminence to "pending" by
   announcement by:

  a) spending 1 Action Point, OR

  b) spending 1/20th the Floating Value in shinies.

Amend R991 "Calls for Judgment" by replacing the first paragaraph with
the following:

   Any person (the initiator) can initiate a Call for Judgement (CFJ,
   syn. Judicial 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Payment

[Josh T]

I mean if I can buy the entire estate of Antegria for 50 cents, I think 10
cents a month is a lot.

天火狐

On 17 July 2017 at 22:50, Quazie  wrote:

> If this CFJ is true then all officers work for a very low rate of ~10
> cents a month - which to me is bonkers.
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 19:03 Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> On Jul 16, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Quazie  wrote:
>>
>> > I pay nichdel a nickel's worth of shinies for taking over as Assessor.
>>
>> I CFJ on the statement “A nickle’s worth of shinies is exactly 5 shinies.”
>>
>> -o
>>
>>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Payment

[Owen Jacobson]

Indeed. What’s the price of bread?

-o

> On Jul 17, 2017, at 10:54 PM, Josh T  wrote:
> 
> I mean if I can buy the entire estate of Antegria for 50 cents, I think 10 
> cents a month is a lot.
> 
> 天火狐
> 
> On 17 July 2017 at 22:50, Quazie  > wrote:
> If this CFJ is true then all officers work for a very low rate of ~10 cents a 
> month - which to me is bonkers.
> 
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 19:03 Owen Jacobson  > wrote:
> On Jul 16, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Quazie  > wrote:
> 
> > I pay nichdel a nickel's worth of shinies for taking over as Assessor.
> 
> I CFJ on the statement “A nickle’s worth of shinies is exactly 5 shinies.”
> 
> -o
> 
> 



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DIS: Re: BUS: Payment

[Quazie]

If this CFJ is true then all officers work for a very low rate of ~10 cents
a month - which to me is bonkers.

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 19:03 Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> On Jul 16, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Quazie  wrote:
>
> > I pay nichdel a nickel's worth of shinies for taking over as Assessor.
>
> I CFJ on the statement “A nickle’s worth of shinies is exactly 5 shinies.”
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Two Related Protos: Judicial Expansion and Criminal Cases

[Alex Smith]

On Mon, 2017-07-17 at 12:04 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 16 Jul 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > I love Agoras Pledges. I won a a dynasty at BN and now running it with a 
> > "Pledge" theme (called "Promises". Pledges is one of my favorite Agora 
> > mechanics and BN is giving them a great twist rn). So I must admit credit 
> > to Agora for that.
> > 
> > Also, sorry for not being around, busy nerding on previous emperors/
> > dynasties and being emperor.
> 
> Hrm, either Agora just successfully invaded BN or BN successfully invaded
> Agora, but I'm not sure which.

I think this is more comparable to the time when BobTHJ unconditionally
surrendered to B Nomic (e was attempting to cause Agora to surrender to
B Nomic but misworded the intent).

It's even more similar to the time I ended up as emperor of BlogNomic
and decided to add some rules along the lines of Agora's offices system
to see what happened, because I thought it might be an interesting
mechanic. Not an invasion in either direction, just an experiment with
mixing nomic rulesets. (BlogNomic's archives of this event are here:
)

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Two Related Protos: Judicial Expansion and Criminal Cases

[Kerim Aydin]

On Sun, 16 Jul 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> I love Agoras Pledges. I won a a dynasty at BN and now running it with a 
> "Pledge" theme (called "Promises". Pledges is one of my favorite Agora 
> mechanics and BN is giving them a great twist rn). So I must admit credit 
> to Agora for that.
> 
> Also, sorry for not being around, busy nerding on previous emperors/
> dynasties and being emperor.

Hrm, either Agora just successfully invaded BN or BN successfully invaded
Agora, but I'm not sure which.

DIS: Re: OFF: [Arbitor] CFJs 3534, 3535, possibly others assigned to ais523

[Kerim Aydin]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2017, Alex Smith wrote:
> > Bu demeçin kararı için ben bağırım:  Bu bir bağırış kararı için
> > değil.
> 
> And here are machine translations of those corrected messages:
>
> > For the sake of this statement I am a coward: it is not a shouting
> > decision.

This is the weirdest thing.  If I take your sentence as above and paste it
into Google with correct Turkish alphabet, I get exactly what you say, with
"I am a coward".  But if I take what appears in the archives, with the
"Icelandic" characters:

https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2003-April/001312.html

 Bu demeçin kararý için ben baðýrým:  Bu bir baðýrýþ kararý için deðil.

and paste it directly into google's translator without specifying language, 
I get the correct language-detection (Turkish), and the correct "I shout/cry" 
(i.e. I cry out) for the word bağırım.  I also get "I cry" when I paste
bağırım in on its own, so I have no idea how 'coward' comes into it!  If
I paste that full 'Icelandic' sentence I get "For the decision of this
statement, I shout:" which seems like nearly understandable Agoran-speak.  

Which means that a native-Turkish speaker might puzzle over the strange 
Icelandic letters, but a language-naive typical Agoran with a translation
tool would actually understand it better!

In retrospect I might have used the verb çağır which is used for "call" in
parliamentary procedure (as in "call to order") and interestingly, I just
learned, for function calls in programming. Bağır is used more for shouting
or "cries from the heart", as in "the protesters on the street were calling
for justice."  Which ones fits best for calling an Agoran judgement?  I
always thought of judgement-calling as a "loud" demand for justice rather 
than a minor procedure of order, but YMMV...?

> (as far as I can tell) «Mutluðuz» isn't a real word in any language. 

If you paste in the full "Mutluðuz 1st Nisan" from the Subject line into the
translator, you get the intended "Happy April 1st" (April Fools Day was an
Agoran Holiday at the time, and a traditional time to try silly scams).  It's
an idiomatic conjugation of mutlu, "happy" (I think this conjugation of 
'happy' is only ever used to wish someone a specific happy occasion and may
be a bit old fashioned - it's first person plural and, read literally, is
something like "let's have a happy day").  It's interesting that if you remove
the subject but leave "Mutluðuz", the translator loses all sense of the word.

-G.

Re: DIS: Two Related Protos: Judicial Expansion and Criminal Cases

[Kerim Aydin]

On Sun, 16 Jul 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:

> 
> > I’m on the fence on this. Pledges and promises are mechanically interesting 
> > and a subtle part of Agora’s texture. Quashing someone’s promises for a 
> > full month seems extreme.
> 
> I love Agoras Pledges. I won a a dynasty at BN and now running it with a 
> "Pledge" theme (called "Promises". Pledges is one of my favorite Agora 
> mechanics and BN is giving them a great twist rn). So I must admit credit to 
> Agora for that.
> 
> Also, sorry for not being around, busy nerding on previous emperors/dynasties 
> and being emperor.

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposal(s) 7865-7866

[Kerim Aydin]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2017, Ørjan Johansen wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> 
> > It wasn’t needed, but I think it would have worked.
> 
> Well my thought was that if it was needed, then the time limit to resolve the
> proposal could not have expired, and so the deputisation would not be valid.

Issuing a Humiliating Public Reminder is a SHALL timed with the moment
of voting period being extended, so someone could deputize to do that
reminder (but pretty sure that boilerplate doesn't do the trick).

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposal(s) 7865-7866

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:


It wasn’t needed, but I think it would have worked.


Well my thought was that if it was needed, then the time limit to resolve 
the proposal could not have expired, and so the deputisation would not be 
valid.


Greetings,
Ørjan.



Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com




On Jul 17, 2017, at 11:52 AM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:

On Sun, 16 Jul 2017, nichdel wrote:


I deputise as Assessor to resolve the decisions to adopt proposals
7865-7866.



Agora are ADOPTED (*), REJECTED (x), and FAILED QUORUM (!). If a
decision's voting period is still ongoing, I end it immediately
before resolving it and after resolving the previous decision.]


I assume that wasn't needed, but if it was, would it work with deputisation?

Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposal(s) 7865-7866

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

It wasn’t needed, but I think it would have worked.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jul 17, 2017, at 11:52 AM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 16 Jul 2017, nichdel wrote:
> 
>> I deputise as Assessor to resolve the decisions to adopt proposals
>> 7865-7866.
> 
>> Agora are ADOPTED (*), REJECTED (x), and FAILED QUORUM (!). If a
>> decision's voting period is still ongoing, I end it immediately
>> before resolving it and after resolving the previous decision.]
> 
> I assume that wasn't needed, but if it was, would it work with deputisation?
> 
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.



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DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposal(s) 7865-7866

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Sun, 16 Jul 2017, nichdel wrote:


I deputise as Assessor to resolve the decisions to adopt proposals
7865-7866.



Agora are ADOPTED (*), REJECTED (x), and FAILED QUORUM (!). If a
decision's voting period is still ongoing, I end it immediately
before resolving it and after resolving the previous decision.]


I assume that wasn't needed, but if it was, would it work with 
deputisation?


Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: CFJ judgement

[Ørjan Johansen]

But there's no pun in that. (Also, product[1..x] is shorter.addict>)


Greetings,
Ørjan.

On Mon, 17 Jul 2017, Josh T wrote:


I kind of prefer
fact x = foldl (*) 1 [1..x]
myself.

天火狐

On 16 July 2017 at 11:16, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:


On Sun, 16 Jul 2017, V.J Rada wrote:

fun fact: i'm dumb




fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)

Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposal(s) 7865-7866

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I like that informal transition.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jul 17, 2017, at 3:26 AM, Aris Merchant 
>  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> ID: 7865
>> Title: Regulations v4
>> Adoption index: 3.1
>> Author: Aris
>> Co-authors: o, nichdel, ais523
> 
> I'm at risk of setting a record for accidentally messing things up.
> This proposal provides no transition mechanism, and so the tournament
> isn't currently happening. I'd appreciate suggestions on how to RWO
> this problem out of existence. We'd be messing with retroactivity,
> which means we might risk making the proposal have effect before the
> time of its resolution. The best solution I can think of is to
> informally give whoever wins the tournament a win by
> proposal/ratification, but there may well be a better one.
> 
> -Aris



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: CFJ judgement

[Josh T]

I kind of prefer
fact x = foldl (*) 1 [1..x]
myself.

天火狐

On 16 July 2017 at 11:16, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Jul 2017, V.J Rada wrote:
>
> fun fact: i'm dumb
>>
>
> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.

DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposal(s) 7865-7866

[Aris Merchant]

>
> ID: 7865
> Title: Regulations v4
> Adoption index: 3.1
> Author: Aris
> Co-authors: o, nichdel, ais523

I'm at risk of setting a record for accidentally messing things up.
This proposal provides no transition mechanism, and so the tournament
isn't currently happening. I'd appreciate suggestions on how to RWO
this problem out of existence. We'd be messing with retroactivity,
which means we might risk making the proposal have effect before the
time of its resolution. The best solution I can think of is to
informally give whoever wins the tournament a win by
proposal/ratification, but there may well be a better one.

-Aris