Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [attn Promotor] Ping!
Well i held in that case that falsifian's submission did fall as a single block On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 2:29 PM Reuben Staley via agora-business < agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On 5/11/20 10:01 PM, Rebecca via agora-business wrote: > > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 12:41 PM Reuben Staley via agora-business < > > agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote: > >> I retract the quoted proposal and submit the following in its place: > >> > >> --- > >> Title: Agora plays table tennis > >> AI: 0.1 > >> Author: Trigon > >> Coauthors: > >> > >> [snip] > > I call the following CFJ: "In the above message, Trigon created a > proposal" > > > > The relevant precedent is CFJ 3744 where it said that it was up to the > > specific speech act as to whether a proposal that was submitted with an > > invalid AI failed entirely or defaulted to 1.0 AI. The speech in that > case > > was found clear, but the speech in this case is very different (and much > > closer to the default way that most people create proposals). Per CFJ > 3744, > > if this message _really_ means ""I create a proposal with > > the following Title, Coauthors, AI, and Text properties" then the > > proposal would entirely fail, whereas it would succeed with AI=1 if > > the message _really_ means ""I > > create a proposal with the following text. I optionally specify an AI. I > > optionally specify a Title. I optionally specify coauthors" > > Gratuitous Arguments: Having reread the relevant CFJ, I would argue that > the framing device I used implies submission of the proposal and all its > specified attributes as a single block. I stated "I... submit the > following [proposal]" not "I submit the following proposal text and > attributes" as Falsifian did in CFJ 3744. > > -- > Trigon > -- >From R. Lee
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [attn Promotor] Ping!
On 5/11/20 8:48 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote: On 5/11/20 10:45 PM, Reuben Staley via agora-business wrote: --- Title: Agora plays table tennis AI: 0.1 Author: Trigon Coauthors: This is either INEFFECTIVE or has an AI of 1.0 under CFJ 3744 because 0.1 is not a valid AI per R1950 *I'm sorry for causing this mess). If I did not submit a proposal in my most recent public message, I submit the following proposal: --- Title: Agora plays table tennis AI: 1.0 Author: Trigon Coauthors: Create a new rule entitled "Ping Pong" with Power=0.1 that reads: The first public message sent by a player each Agoran day must begin with the word ping (case-insensitive). The second public message sent by a player each Agoran day must end with the word pong (case-insensitive). If a player fails to include ping or pong as mandated by the previous paragraph, then, in that same Agoran day, any player CAN once revoke one coin from em. -- Trigon
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [attn Promotor] Ping!
On 5/11/20 10:45 PM, Reuben Staley via agora-business wrote: > --- > Title: Agora plays table tennis > AI: 0.1 > Author: Trigon > Coauthors: This is either INEFFECTIVE or has an AI of 1.0 under CFJ 3744 because 0.1 is not a valid AI per R1950 *I'm sorry for causing this mess). -- Jason Cobb
DIS: Re: BUS: [attn Promotor] Ping!
On 5/11/20 10:15 PM, Reuben Staley via agora-business wrote: > Title: Agora plays table tennis > AI: 1.7 > Author: Trigon > Coauthors: > > Create a new rule entitled "Ping Pong" with Power=1.7 that reads: > >The first public message sent by a player each Agoran day must >begin with the word ping (case-insensitive). The second public >message sent by a player each Agoran day must end with the word >pong (case-insensitive). > >If a player fails to include ping or pong as mandated by the >previous paragraph, then, in that same Agoran day, any player CAN >once revoke one coin from em. Sounds interesting, but why is the rule at power 1.7 and not something like 0.1? -- Jason Cobb
DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] The Webmastor
On Monday, May 11, 2020 8:46:53 PM CDT Reuben Staley via agora-business wrote:
> On 5/11/20 6:13 PM, nch via agora-business wrote:
> > I submit the following proposal {
> >
> > Title: The Webmastor
> > Author: nch
> > AI: 1.0
> >
> > Enact a rule titled "The Webmastor" with Power=1 and the following text:
> > The Webmastor is an office.
> >
> > The Webmastor's monthly report includes a Directory, a Changelog,
> > a
> > Warning Log, and an Error Log. The Directory lists notable
> > currently maintained public resources. The Changelog lists
> > notable
> > changes to resources. The Warning Log lists notable potential
> > issues, such as inaccurate or aging resources or unintended
> > issues
> > with a public resource. The Error Log lists notable losses of
> > resources - where a resource has become inaccessible,
> > unmaintained,
> > or unusable. Where 'notable' is used in this rule its meaning is
> > up
> > to the Webmastor's discretion.
> >
> > }
>
> Just to verify: you're planning on taking this office, right?
>
> --
> Trigon
Yup!
--
nch
DIS: coherent vision for Agora Nomic as an independent policing/judiciary force
(1) judiciary thing: craft some immutables that allow contracts to specify Agora Nomic Arbitration Services as their venue of dispute resolution, possibly including stuff like all eligible contracts must be public and parties must pay a registration point (however those are to be obtained) to register such a thing with Agora. (2) police thing: legislate some crimes -- like "victim blaming in a tweet" -- that can reasonably be prosecuted on the internet only, and provide a framework for reporting, adjudicating, and shaming perpetrators (not a whole lot else Agora can do to them) until they submit Indulgence points (however those are to be obtained.) Thoughts? -- With great risk comes spectacular failure
Re: DIS: Research Request: Economics
On 5/11/20 8:28 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:>> Maybe there could be an office for Agora academia specifically? The 'Professor'? Has a bi-annual report of all theses, perhaps? Maybe we could make a campaign to make a timeline of Agora history? I dunno. For those unfamiliar with what I mean from Blognomic, the main wiki page has a chronological list of every dynasty, and each dynasty follows the same general structure of the AA that started the dynasty, the main proposals of the dynasty, and then how it was won: * List: https://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=Main_Page * Dynasty example: https://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=The_Twenty-Sixth_Dynasty_of_Kevan [gonna respond to this and the portion below together] I believe Agora is lagging behind Blognomic when it comes to nomic theses and academia. I'd suggest to find some kind of easy template to fill out to record history like Blognomic has, it doesn't need to be exhaustive - I believe that it definitely shouldn't be exhaustive, really (because if it's too much effort to fill in, it just won't be filled in often enough and people will forget to do it and so on) and definitely some regular report that has links to Agora theses on it so that they're not lost in the void of nobody remembering about them. I think Blognomic has really benefited from dynasties here. They have very clear start and stop points and themes. Part of the reason people don't write those kinds of summaries in Agora, I suspect, is that they don't even know where to begin and end. I don't think the nature of Agora is really fitted to standardized time-frames since sometimes there's big shifts and sometimes there's very gradual ones. Yearly or biyearly would certainly help out, but an even better solution would probably be actually going back and identifying specific time-frames for further study so later people can just dive in and know where to begin and end. I think that there's a problem subdividing time periods in Agora. There's not always a clear date where a certain era started and ended. PAoaM, for instance, entered drafting in November 2017 and was finally enacted in February 2018, but was discovered to be buggy, so a new proposal was developed to patch the game and let us start playing, which didn't come out for another month. So, do we classify the current coin era (and subsequently the PAoaM epoch) as beginning in April, when we actually started playing the minigame? Or do we say it began in November, where the symbolic shift away from the economy of the time started? I remember G. and others had their own ideas for reforms about the same time I started making drafts, so their ideas are also a part of this movement, making it possibly an even greater marker of the end of the shiny era. -- Trigon
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [ADoP] Cracking rocks
Congrats Falsifian! David Seeber From: agora-discussion on behalf of Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:00:06 AM To: Agora Nomic discussions (DF) Cc: Cuddle Beam Subject: Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [ADoP] Cracking rocks Congrats Falsifan! On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:12 AM Edward Murphy via agora-business < agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote: > I wrote: > > > Good point. I intend, with 2 Agoran Consent, to award Employee of the > > Year to Falsifian. > > With support from Jason and R. Lee and no objections, I do so. >
Re: DIS: Research Request: Economics
On 5/11/2020 7:49 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > On 5/11/2020 7:28 AM, nch wrote: >> I'm going to re-arrange CB's original message a little bit because I think >> it >> makes more sense to respond to those points in that order. >> >> On Monday, May 11, 2020 3:55:24 AM CDT Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion >> wrote: >>> To FURTHER show how a well-documented history is a good idea, it's NOT ONLY >>> the history per se which is valuable, having it readily available makes >>> research BASED on analysis of that history possible. For instance, the >>> History of Victories, which has managed to apply a taxonomy to the way that >>> the game is played by digging up the whole past of Blognomic: >>> https://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=History_of_victories >> >> Minor note: we do keep a history of victories with categories, it's in the >> scroll of Agora. It does lack links (partly because they'd make the document >> harder to read since we don't use a hypertext format). There's no reason we >> couldn't have a 'research version' of this with the links though. > > It's not just links it lacks, it lacks any notion of dates or reasons > (with the minor exception of Badges). The Scroll is terribly documented > and several times I've tried to go back and even put a year on some of > those titles and can't (in some cases, I can't narrow it down to within a > few years even because we re-use win types.). The scroll says I won by > Proposal (x2) but I couldn't even give you which decade these happened in. Also - we didn't used to track categories of victories even. We started doing that in 2006-2007, and all the wins before that were "reconstructed from communal memory" (very imperfectly) around that time, which is why the Scroll has so many "unspecified" wins. -G.
Re: DIS: Research Request: Economics
On 5/11/2020 7:28 AM, nch wrote: > I'm going to re-arrange CB's original message a little bit because I think it > makes more sense to respond to those points in that order. > > On Monday, May 11, 2020 3:55:24 AM CDT Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion wrote: >> To FURTHER show how a well-documented history is a good idea, it's NOT ONLY >> the history per se which is valuable, having it readily available makes >> research BASED on analysis of that history possible. For instance, the >> History of Victories, which has managed to apply a taxonomy to the way that >> the game is played by digging up the whole past of Blognomic: >> https://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=History_of_victories > > Minor note: we do keep a history of victories with categories, it's in the > scroll of Agora. It does lack links (partly because they'd make the document > harder to read since we don't use a hypertext format). There's no reason we > couldn't have a 'research version' of this with the links though. It's not just links it lacks, it lacks any notion of dates or reasons (with the minor exception of Badges). The Scroll is terribly documented and several times I've tried to go back and even put a year on some of those titles and can't (in some cases, I can't narrow it down to within a few years even because we re-use win types.). The scroll says I won by Proposal (x2) but I couldn't even give you which decade these happened in. -G.
Re: DIS: Research Request: Economics
I'm going to re-arrange CB's original message a little bit because I think it makes more sense to respond to those points in that order. On Monday, May 11, 2020 3:55:24 AM CDT Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion wrote: > To FURTHER show how a well-documented history is a good idea, it's NOT ONLY > the history per se which is valuable, having it readily available makes > research BASED on analysis of that history possible. For instance, the > History of Victories, which has managed to apply a taxonomy to the way that > the game is played by digging up the whole past of Blognomic: > https://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=History_of_victories Minor note: we do keep a history of victories with categories, it's in the scroll of Agora. It does lack links (partly because they'd make the document harder to read since we don't use a hypertext format). There's no reason we couldn't have a 'research version' of this with the links though. > I find it remarkable that, even as obscure and unpredictable as nomic can > be, a game of "anything", Blognomic has a much richer understanding of the > way that their own game of "anything", is played. Like, how do you even > start to rodeo and categorize something so vast as the possibilities in > nomic? Well, Blognomic has done so, and now has every single dynasty of its > history classified into broad styles of gameplay/victory (yes the taxonomy > thing was initially my idea lmao but it has now become something a lot > bigger than that with the help of the rest of players, especially Kevan). Tangent to your tangent: I'm trying to write a taxonomy for Agora's economies, so I'll have to take a look at Blognomic's. Thanks for bringing that up. > Maybe there could be an office for Agora academia specifically? The > 'Professor'? Has a bi-annual report of all theses, perhaps? Maybe we could > make a campaign to make a timeline of Agora history? I dunno. > > For those unfamiliar with what I mean from Blognomic, the main wiki page > has a chronological list of every dynasty, and each dynasty follows the > same general structure of the AA that started the dynasty, the main > proposals of the dynasty, and then how it was won: > * List: https://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=Main_Page > * Dynasty example: > https://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=The_Twenty-Sixth_Dynasty_of_Kevan [gonna respond to this and the portion below together] > I believe Agora is lagging behind Blognomic when it comes to nomic theses > and academia. I'd suggest to find some kind of easy template to fill out to > record history like Blognomic has, it doesn't need to be exhaustive - I > believe that it definitely shouldn't be exhaustive, really (because if it's > too much effort to fill in, it just won't be filled in often enough and > people will forget to do it and so on) and definitely some regular report > that has links to Agora theses on it so that they're not lost in the void > of nobody remembering about them. I think Blognomic has really benefited from dynasties here. They have very clear start and stop points and themes. Part of the reason people don't write those kinds of summaries in Agora, I suspect, is that they don't even know where to begin and end. I don't think the nature of Agora is really fitted to standardized time-frames since sometimes there's big shifts and sometimes there's very gradual ones. Yearly or biyearly would certainly help out, but an even better solution would probably be actually going back and identifying specific time-frames for further study so later people can just dive in and know where to begin and end.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [ADoP] Cracking rocks
Congrats Falsifan! On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:12 AM Edward Murphy via agora-business < agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote: > I wrote: > > > Good point. I intend, with 2 Agoran Consent, to award Employee of the > > Year to Falsifian. > > With support from Jason and R. Lee and no objections, I do so. >
Re: DIS: Research Request: Economics
This is a bit of a tangent but I think that Agora could really, REALLY use a better way to record its history. Blognomic has every single dynasty of its history documented, which makes research (and appreciation) of its past very easy. I'm very surprised that Agora has nothing like it yet (aside from scattered theses, many of the which are pretty lost, because they aren't anchored anywhere, and the Reportor), especially because of how old and rich its history is. It's going to all fade into obscurity unless we do something about it. Maybe there could be an office for Agora academia specifically? The 'Professor'? Has a bi-annual report of all theses, perhaps? Maybe we could make a campaign to make a timeline of Agora history? I dunno. For those unfamiliar with what I mean from Blognomic, the main wiki page has a chronological list of every dynasty, and each dynasty follows the same general structure of the AA that started the dynasty, the main proposals of the dynasty, and then how it was won: * List: https://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=Main_Page * Dynasty example: https://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=The_Twenty-Sixth_Dynasty_of_Kevan To FURTHER show how a well-documented history is a good idea, it's NOT ONLY the history per se which is valuable, having it readily available makes research BASED on analysis of that history possible. For instance, the History of Victories, which has managed to apply a taxonomy to the way that the game is played by digging up the whole past of Blognomic: https://wiki.blognomic.com/index.php?title=History_of_victories I find it remarkable that, even as obscure and unpredictable as nomic can be, a game of "anything", Blognomic has a much richer understanding of the way that their own game of "anything", is played. Like, how do you even start to rodeo and categorize something so vast as the possibilities in nomic? Well, Blognomic has done so, and now has every single dynasty of its history classified into broad styles of gameplay/victory (yes the taxonomy thing was initially my idea lmao but it has now become something a lot bigger than that with the help of the rest of players, especially Kevan). I believe Agora is lagging behind Blognomic when it comes to nomic theses and academia. I'd suggest to find some kind of easy template to fill out to record history like Blognomic has, it doesn't need to be exhaustive - I believe that it definitely shouldn't be exhaustive, really (because if it's too much effort to fill in, it just won't be filled in often enough and people will forget to do it and so on) and definitely some regular report that has links to Agora theses on it so that they're not lost in the void of nobody remembering about them. On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 9:44 PM Edward Murphy via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > ais523 wrote: > > > The main innovation of Notes is that you needed to collect sets of > > particular pitches in order to do anything, so the goal was, in effect, > > to aim for particular /types/ of glitter to boost your economic > > Including 'singing' Happy Birthday (in any key) for a win. >
