DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of proposals 7728-7729
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Luis Ressel wrote: > 7728 Tiger 3.0 Even More Restricted Distribution Endorse G. > 7729 aranea 1.0 Zombies die hard Endorse Eritivus > 7726 omd1.0 Word Card fix FOR > 7727 omd1.0 Word Card nerf FOR
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Judgment of CFJ 3432
On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > On Tue, 11 Nov 2014, Nich Del Evans wrote: >> I judge CFJ 3432 to be TRUE. On its surface, the CFJ asks if rule >> 2437's original text specified mechanisms for changing the text of >> rule 2437 (that work). It does indeed; rules are entities and thus the >> Dungeon Master could add Rule 2437 (or any other rule) to the PoA and >> then set its properties by announcement -- something that is part of >> the PoA certainly "pertains to" the PoA by any reasonable definition >> [1][2][3]. > > The Dungeon master could add a copy of the rule text to the > PoA, but that is *not* adding the entity of the rule itself to the > PoA. If the Dungeon master says "I add Nichdel to the PoA" does > that mean e can cast your votes? > > -G. Nothing in the rule indicates that it would create a copy (it either does or does not add the rule to the PoA). I don't see what would prevent the Dungeon Master from adding any enttiy, including myself. Whether or not it can successfully set properties (due to higher power rules possibly preventing it) is another issue. HOWEVER, rechecking rules, switches are the only things defined as properties (2162). It's mentioned in several places (2137, 1551) that rules can have properties, but what those are seems unclear. Perhaps this CFJ should be reconsidered to correct my reasoning and a new CFJ should be raised to establish if rule text is a property of a rule.
DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of proposals 7711-20
> 7711 omd1.0 Wordplay FOR (Should be a ton o fun) > 7712 Murphy 1.0 Full disclosure PRESENT > 7713 Warrigal 3.0 Speedliness PRESENT > 7714 Tiger 1.0 Got tiger AGAINST > 7715 Tiger 1.0 I want points AGAINST > 7716 Tiger 1.0 Purse split at the seams AGAINST > 7717 Tiger 1.0 More points 1 AGAINST > 7718 Tiger 1.0 More points 2 AGAINST > 7719 Tiger 1.0 More points 3 AGAINST > 7720 omd2.0 Kill the zombie FOR
Re: DIS: Kniffordly happenings
Pythagorclid considers the woman's story and tells em e is a traveler and knows nothing about the happenings of Knifford. However, Pythagorclid also recognizes that worshippers or dark and mysterious powers often have secret knowledge. Of course, knowledge of the secret variety is rarely given up without a fight, especially by the evil sort. Pythagorclid looks the other traveler (DN) up and down and says to em, "You look the adventuring sort. Would you like to investigate these potentially evil priests? I'm sure there'll be booze, babes, and beds for us at the inn if we help the town out." Of course Pythagorclid has no use of female- or alcohol-based distractions, but e is well aware of the three B's of adventuring. Pythagorclid then zones out and counts the number of stones on the road. --nichdel On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Tanner Swett wrote: > On Oct 30, 2014, at 3:43 AM, Jonatan Kilhamn wrote: >> On 30 October 2014 04:45, Tanner Swett wrote: >>> On Oct 24, 2014, at 2:02 PM, Jonatan Kilhamn wrote: I punch the Bard in the face. >>> >>> Inside the inn, we find the Bard and some unknown character, whom we >>> designate AQ. The Bard is singing merrily, and AQ, evidently growing >>> impatient with eir singing voice, punches the Bard in the face, giving em a >>> black eye and a nosebleed. (Attack roll: d20 -> 19. Armor class: 10. Hit >>> for d3 -> 2 nonlethal damage. Hit points: 3 out of 3. Nonlethal damage >>> points: 2.) >>> >>> "Hey!" the innkeeper roars at AQ. "What the hell do you think you're doing? >>> You need to leave, right now!" >> >> I (that is, AQ) leave right now. I hang around the general vicinity, >> intending to be present wherever something interesting happens next >> (dunno if that requires a skill or move or something like that). > > AQ walks out of the room, and the innkeeper seems reluctantly satisfied. The > Bard makes a full recovery. > > On Oct 30, 2014, at 2:27 PM, Benjamin Schultz wrote: >> Oscarosaurus grazes in the farmland near the inn. E tries to determine if >> the strange music has a good STOMP beat. (It's hard to enjoy music any >> other way when you lack opposable thumbs or nimble ankles.) > > I could be mistaken, but I don't believe the Bard's music is quite that style > of music. > > > > A woman in eir sixties, with messy white hair and a gaunt face, is walking > down the road to Knifford, with a preoccupied expression. E comes across DN > and Pythagorclid and stops and sighs. > > "You two wouldn't happen to know anything about this, would you?" e asks. > "You probably know about the old monastery about an hour's walk to the north > of here. It's been abandoned for the past thirty years. I don't know why they > left—I was there one day and they were there, and I came back again later and > they were gone. Anyway, I guess some new people have moved in. I don't think > they're good news. > > "I only saw one of them when I was there today. I figured they'd be friendly > folk—after all, the old monks, worshippers of Luss, were. So I asked the > person I saw how they were doing, and e just said they were fine and wanted > to be left alone. I asked if e was a worshipper of Luss, and e just got > angry. E said that I'd better leave right away, or else e'd tear my head off! > I hope e was joking, but in any case, I didn't stick around. > > "I've heard about evil priests and their rituals. If these new monks are that > sort, I shudder to think what they might be up to." > > After finishing here, the woman goes by the inn and mentions the same thing > to Oscarosaurus, AQ, and the Bard. (Presumably the mailing list posts about > these discussions will come out of chronological order. Even though the woman > finishes her discussion with DN and Pythagorclid before she ever meets the > other player characters, these threads can all happen simultaneously.) > > —the Warrigal
Re: DIS: Kniffordly happenings
(Disregard, I apparently didn't read the whole thing.) On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Nich Del Evans wrote: > (I might be mistaken, but the woman is talking to Pythagorclid and DN, > not Oscarosaurus, correct? Are you meaning that you overhear this and > approach us to ask?) > > On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Benjamin Schultz > wrote: >> Oscarosaurus, being of the Dinotopia model, is fluent in the language we're >> all using [English OOG, who knows what in-game] - except that as a herd >> animal, Oscarosaurus has trouble with singular pronouns. Please read >> Oscarosaurus's posts as if they were being said by a 100kg parrot talking in >> the baritone range. >> >> A no-longer-abandoned monastery habited by unusual monks sounds like a job >> for an Adventurer Party. Oscarosaurus isn't too worried about threats to >> tear off heads, due to having a substantial neck frill and somewhat thick >> hide. However Oscarosaurus is no adventurer. >> >> Oscarosaurus asks the woman which road leads to Oscar's Mire and what might >> be on that road. Then he scratches his back against a tree and looks for a >> good place to sleep -- good natural defenses from large predators, fresh >> water, lots of open space for singing. Because one ought to sing every day. >> >> >> OscarMeyr
Re: DIS: Kniffordly happenings
(I might be mistaken, but the woman is talking to Pythagorclid and DN, not Oscarosaurus, correct? Are you meaning that you overhear this and approach us to ask?) On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Benjamin Schultz wrote: > Oscarosaurus, being of the Dinotopia model, is fluent in the language we're > all using [English OOG, who knows what in-game] - except that as a herd > animal, Oscarosaurus has trouble with singular pronouns. Please read > Oscarosaurus's posts as if they were being said by a 100kg parrot talking in > the baritone range. > > A no-longer-abandoned monastery habited by unusual monks sounds like a job > for an Adventurer Party. Oscarosaurus isn't too worried about threats to > tear off heads, due to having a substantial neck frill and somewhat thick > hide. However Oscarosaurus is no adventurer. > > Oscarosaurus asks the woman which road leads to Oscar's Mire and what might > be on that road. Then he scratches his back against a tree and looks for a > good place to sleep -- good natural defenses from large predators, fresh > water, lots of open space for singing. Because one ought to sing every day. > > > OscarMeyr
DIS: Re: OFF: [Deputy Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7698-7710
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 9:23 PM, omd wrote: > Proposal 7698 (AI=1) by ais523 FOR > Proposal 7699 (AI=3) by scshunt PRESENT > Proposal 7700 (AI=1) by Henri AGAINST > Proposal 7701 (AI=1) by Henri PRESENT > Proposal 7702 (AI=1) by Henri AGAINST > Proposal 7703 (AI=1) by G. PRESENT > Proposal 7704 (AI=1) by G. PRESENT > Proposal 7705 (AI=3) by omd PRESENT > Proposal 7706 (AI=3) by omd PRESENT > Proposal 7707 (AI=1) by Warrigal FOR > Proposal 7708 (AI=1) by Murphy FOR > Proposal 7709 (AI=1) by Murphy PRESENT > Proposal 7710 (AI=3) by G. FOR
Re: DIS: Re: OFF: Re: BUS: Province?
If any characters have successfully arrived in the Province,
Pythagorclid the Numerologist stumbles into the province.
Here's a brief character sheet:
* Knows every digit of Pi (but not their order)
* Supernaturally skilled at solving puzzles, but often mistakes normal
things for puzzles.
* Easily distracted by sequences of numbers.
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Benjamin Schultz
wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Alex Smith wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 2014-10-24 at 09:36 -0400, Tanner Swett wrote:
>> > I create a Province character called Redgroat. Redgroat looks around.
>>
>> The Rulekeepor ruled that you couldn't do that because the proposal that
>> would have created that rule was ambiguous.
>>
>> Still, at least it gives me something to report on.
>>
>> The following is the status of the Province of Agora, including any
>> recent changes to it:
>> {{{
>> There are, most likely no entities in the Province of Agora. Warrigal
>> has attempted to send a character named Redgroat into the Province, but
>> there is serious doubt as to whether e actually arrived.
>> }}}
>>
>> --
>> ais523
>>
>
>
> If the character Redgroat successfully arrived in the Province, I create a
> Province character named Oscarosaurus, which is a Titanoceratops.
>
> (Source of character name:
> http://www.bristolzoo.org.uk/dinozoo/my-dino-name)
> --
> OscarMeyr
DIS: Re: BUS: Brief for Moot on CFJ 3429
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Eritivus wrote: > I claim that, assuming the reader knows that "pertaining to" can mean > "belonging to", the text is quite clear. "Pertaining to" is obviously > used as a synonym for "contained in", "inside" and "belonging to", and > as the effect of "add to" (i.e. adding an entity to the PoA is to > cause it to pertain to the PoA). At worst, the text is poorly worded, > being susceptible to the confusion we have witnessed due to using a > chiefly legal and relatively obscure sense. I have to disagree with this on a few parts. 1) No one mentioned that interpretation until you did, so this leads me to believe that interpretation is not the most natural one, and makes me think most people weren't aware of it (I certainly wasn't). 2) Knowing that definition by itself does not disambiguate the statement; it must be a sense that the players are likely to actually interpret it as. Let's say an imaginary rule states "All players must publish one spritual document." A player publishes a document about eir beliefs, but its validity is contested for some reason X. We discuss this for a week. Suddenly a player notes that it never was valid, because writing their document was not directly influenced by the Holy Spirit. This has nothing at all to do with X. It seems clear to me that this interpretation, which is valid modern-day Christian jargon, is not a reasonable one. 3) If there is any preference in the current rules for either legalistic or ordinary-language meanings, it's for ordinary-language meanings because "Mother, May I?" (Rule 2152) seeks to "provide guidance in determining the ordinary-language meaning of a term when a rule includes a term otherwise."
DIS: A Linguistic Moot Not-Brief
This is not a brief because it contains no declaration of support for either ruling. Instead, I wish to offer a Linguistics-based approach to the current issue and convince players to side with a ruling based on intuitive readings of the rules and legal precident. Consider with me for a moment the statement "a public process takes place over a few days." What is 'a few days'? Nearly everyone would agree it's not 1 or 2. Maybe 3 or 4? Is 5 still 'a few'? 6? 7? You get the point. In formal semantics 'SOME' is a directionally entailing quantifier/predicate that forms indefinite noun phrases. If "some humans have 3 legs" does that entail "some Arizonians have 3 legs"? Probably not. On the other hand, if "some Wyoming college students speak Arabic" does that entail "some American college students speak Arabic"? I believe most native speakers would say yes. This is upward entailment (from subset to superset). The phrase "...subject to general player review through a reasonably public process...", which is (correct me if I'm wrong) the core of the dispute, contains at least two predicates I would consider directionally-entailing: "GENERAL" and "REASONABLY". If something is "subject to general review" it is likely "subject to general player review" but not vice-versa. "REASONABLY" might actually have some entailment both ways; "reasonably sized for a building" is likely not "reasonably sized for a skyscraper" but I'm not sure the other way works either. REASONABLE seems to be most similar to "average" and based on our expectations in both directions. Since these aren't so straightforwardly numeric, we can't test them as easily as we can test "a few days", but they are certainly testable. Each player should ask themselves: is 1 day reasonably public? 2 days? 3 days? 4 days? Is less-than-expected still reasonable? How much less can it be while still being reasonable? Each player should also avoid the temptation to choose a cut-off just to favor or spite the scam in question. It is the responsibility of anyone who wants agora to be fair to avoid ruling on advantage. Of course as G noted here (http://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg26747.html), "if [it] came up that we invented an INFORMAL process, it would be thrown out, with some guaranteed snarky words from the judge." An agreement that is simply "Most of us think this is reasonable" is not a proper decision in a legal environment. Thus, players should also be informed by legal precident. If there is clear, relevant precident for this situation it should be relied on. The less clear it is, the less it should be relied on. In the end players should use a balanced combination of speaker intuition and legal precident to cast an opinion that is not based on spite or favor for individuals or actions. -nichdel
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (Mis)Applying My Linguistics Skills
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:37 AM, omd wrote: > On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 1:00 AM, Nicholas Evans wrote: > > [An attempt at very simply tightening the restraints against attempting > to > > register things that cannot utilize language to communicate their own > ideas. > > While originating and communicating imply intentionality, they're hard to > > disprove when given a sufficiently clever sentence generator. Rephrasing > > implies understanding of the semantics of a language, and recursion > implies > > a cognitive awareness of a language. Combined, these are unlikely to be > > spoofed.] > > I'm somewhat skeptical of the word "organism". > > If it has to be biological, then just say "human", there's no > guarantee hypothetical space aliens or AIs would be considered > organisms anyway. :) > > If not, then you have to deal with the issue that personhood is > currently an all or nothing passive affair, while the aforementioned > hypothetical entities might not have such rigid boundaries. For > example, while it is reasonable (though perhaps unkind) to require Deb > and Bob to exist as separate players, because humans tend to be > capable of operating with distinct personalities, Vernor Vinge's Tines > might not appreciate the sentiment despite having some ability to be > split up. This could be mostly solved by only requiring that players > be disjoint, but that would require putting restrictions on > registration rather than merely tweaking the definition of a person. > (Though for an AI which could fork itself on a whim, the concept of > "disjoint" might itself be murky.) > > Finally, I think that the new parts of the proposed wording are not > actually that hard for an actual AI to satisfy. After all, automated > rephrasing would be a similar problem to machine translation - not > 100% accurate but able to produce readable outputs for most inputs. > (Well, it can be accomplished in a roundabout way using the latter - > do what translationparty.com does for a language easier to translate > than Japanese and there's your rephrasing.) "Recursively referring > to" is harder to pin down, but probably doable to some extent. > > /me wonders whether speculating about Tines is too silly for the New > Agora. Or is that the Old Agora? > I agree that AI can imitate rephrasing, to an extremely limited extent. I also agree that they can imitate recursion to an even more limited extent. In fact, if it can rephrase then you could give it the set expression: " is identical in meaning to ." I highly doubt the AIs ability to reliably rephrase that. A human could do so, then recursively refer to both versions, and continue to go down this rabbit hole to the limit of their working memory, and even moreso if they took the time to write every version down. Additionally, http://translationparty.com/#11235473: "I am a green man" is equivalent in meaning to "I am both green and a man." 'I'm green man' is ' I'm green and people ' is semantically the same. ' ''Is green man I green and others ', is the same in meaning. ' ' The green man I green and others ', is the same in meaning. If this isn't satisfactory evidence, I could add more constraints. AI and Linguistics is my area of focus.
RE: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Voting Results for 7615-7617
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014, Ørjan Johansen wrote: > On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, omd wrote: > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:50 PM, Kerim Aydin > > > wrote: > > > > > > Wow. Significant rules changes and a quite high voter count. I'm happy. > > > > Indeed... a bold new era of cleaning up the mistakes we just put into place, > > but at least it was done by many voters acting unanimously. > > So is it the Year of the Lemming? :P That's a myth, a myth!!
DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposal 7617
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > Proposal 7617 by G. (AI = 2, Ordinary) > A Complex Game 2 > FOR
DIS: Re: OFF: [assumed Promotor] Distribution of Proposal 7610
On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 7:06 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > Proposal 7610 by G. (AI-3, Ordinary, PF-0, no party) > Low-hanging Fruit > > [Low-hanging Fruit removes Yaks, Government, person classes, > a few other things, simplifies chambers, simplifies Holidays] > I vote FOR, and advise others to do the same. Features can be re-added, once gameplay is back in full swing.
Re: DIS: interest poll
Sorry, my phone app really doesn't seem to like agora. What I meant to say: I have an entire month free, so I'm willing to do something, though I doubt I know the rules enough to do Rulekeepor. Also, is most everyone agreed that the rules need to be simplified? On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 12:20 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > Are there enough willing to commit to an office or 2 for > a firm month at least to make this worth catching up on? > > Need at least: > > Promotor > Assessor > Registrar > CotC > Rulekeepor > > (I'll willing to do any 2 but not all 5 and not Rulekeepor). > > -G. > > > >
DIS: Re: interest poll
Are there enough willing to commit to an office or 2 for a firm month at least to make this worth catching up on? Need at least: Promotor Assessor Registrar CotC Rulekeepor (I'll willing to do any 2 but not all 5 and not Rulekeepor). -G.
DIS: Proto IADoP Report
Ooops, let's try this with better formatting: OFFICE REPORT This report: 20 Oct 13 Last report: 01 Sep 13 ELECTED OFFICES --- Office Holder Since Last report Assumption Salary -- Ambassador Walker 04 Jul 13 01 Sep 13Postulated 50 Assessoromd 24 Aug 13 09 Sep 13Assumed 300 CotCG. 26 Aug 13 20 Oct 13Assumed 400 Gov. Waste woggle 07 Aug 13 **never**Postulated 37 Herald scshunt 08 Aug 13 24 Aug 13Assumed 50 Horton woggle 22 Jan 13 08 Sep 13Postulated 150 IADoP Walker 26 Jul 13 -- Now --Postulated 350 PromotorG. 01 Sep 13 23 Sep 13Assumed 300 Registrar VACANT 19 Aug 13 19 Aug 13Assumed 150 Returning Walker 23 Jun 13 01 Sep 13Postulated 50 Rulekeepor VACANT 14 Sep 13 01 Sep 13Postulated 400 Yak Herdor Walker 02 Jun 13 01 Sep 13Postulated 250 IMPOSED OFFICES --- Office HolderSince Salary Cabinet Secretary nichdel 20 Oct 130 Chief Whip G.20 Oct 130 Chancellor Sprocklem 20 Oct 130 Committee Chairman Telnaior 20 Oct 130 Majority Leader Bayushi 20 Oct 130 Minority Leader OscarMeyr 20 Oct 130 Speaker VACANT13 Jun 130
DIS: Proto IADoP Report
I plan to deputize as IADoP and distribute the following report, I wanted to get more experienced players' feedback: OFFICE REPORT This report: 20 Oct 13 Last report: 01 Sep 13 ELECTED OFFICES --- Office Holder Since Last report Assumption Salary - Ambassador Walker04 Jul 13 01 Sep 13 Postulated 50 Assessor omd24 Aug 13 09 Sep 13Assumed 300 CotCG.26 Aug 13 20 Oct 13 Assumed 400 Gov. Waste woggle07 Aug 13 **never** Postulated 37 Heraldscshunt 08 Aug 13 24 Aug 13Assumed 50 Horton woggle 22 Jan 1308 Sep 13 Postulated 150 IADoPWalker26 Jul 13-- Now -- Postulated 350 Promotor G. 01 Sep 13 23 Sep 13Assumed 300 RegistrarVACANT 19 Aug 13 19 Aug 13Assumed 150 Returning Walker23 Jun 13 01 Sep 13Postulated 50 Rulekeepor VACANT 14 Sep 13 01 Sep 13Postulated 400 Yak Herdor Walker02 Jun 13 01 Sep 13Postulated 250 IMPOSED OFFICES --- OfficeHolderSince Salary Cabinet Secretarynichdel 20 Oct 130 Chief WhipG.20 Oct 130 ChancellorSprocklem 20 Oct 130 Committee Chairman Telnaior 20 Oct 130 Majority LeaderBayushi 20 Oct 130 Minority Leader OscarMeyr 20 Oct 130 Speaker VACANT 13 Jun 130
