Re: DIS: Re: [@Treasuror] Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Stonemason] December Stone Auction Resolution
On 12/20/2020 1:29 PM, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote: > On 12/20/20 1:41 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 11:32 AM Reuben Staley via agora-discussion < >> agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: >> >>> On 12/13/20 11:28 PM, Lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote: Le 13/12/2020 à 23:28, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion a écrit : > > On 12/10/20 8:46 AM, ATMunn via agora-discussion wrote: >> On 12/9/2020 11:12 PM, Lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote: >>> Le 10/12/2020 à 02:35, ATMunn via agora-business a écrit : On 12/9/2020 8:30 PM, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: > On 12/9/2020 7:13 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote: >> This auction was a selective-bid auction. The awardees are as >>> follows: >> [Protection Stone] -> Murphy for 135 coins. >> [Sabotage Stone] -> Murphy for 130 coins. >> [Wealth Stone] -> ATMunn for 169 coins. > > I pay a fee of 169 coins to transfer the Wealth Stone from Agora to > myself (for real this time). > I wield my Wealth Stone in order to cause myself to earn 5 boatloads >>> of coins (23 coins). >>> >>> There was a mistake in the rounding method in the Floating Rate >>> Schedule, it's actually 24 coins. >>> (ceiling(4.6212*5) = 24, but Trigon used floor) >>> >>> I don't know if it should be CoE'd >>> >> >> I think it's fine as long as the Treasuror records it correctly. The >> important thing is that I wielded the stone and specified myself. >> > > Indeed, Rule 2645 specifies that wielding the stone performs the effect > instantly. The boatloads and its translation into coins were > supplemental effects. Also, for future reference, Claims of Error are > reserved for inaccuracies in reports. In this case the action just > failed and the best you could do would be to inform the player of such > thing. > Sorry, I wasn't clear enough: I meant CoEing the Floating Rate Schedule, since the conversion table is slightly off. I just wanted to avoid extra confusion in the next Forbes, since some can wonder why they got one extra coin. >>> >>> The conversion table was a courtesy that I put in the FRS. I don't >>> believe that claims of error are able to be issued on anything except >>> for self-ratifying sections of reports. >> >> >> Precedent seems to disagree. CFJ 1420 said that the list of watchers could >> be CoE'd, despite not being defined by the rules. >> >> The current rules are a bit different, and you could make a pretty fair >> argument that, under recent precedent, the conversion table is a separate >> document that wasn't required to be published. But even then, you SHOULD >> issue a revision, you just NEED NOT do so. The relevant current rule is >> Rule 2201. >> >> -Aris >> >>> > > Under the current rules, only a document can be CoE'd (see Rule > 2201/10). I forget what exactly that entails, but if you can classify > the non-self-ratifying and unrequired sections of an official report as > 'documents' or parts thereof then I would agree that it can be CoE'd. I > forget what exactly is and isn't a document. Someone who is not me can > look that up. > CFJ 3658 (https://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/cases/?3658) discusses the definition of "document" a bit: What about "document"? A "public Document" is defined by R1551 as "part (possibly all) of a public message." This narrows things down in one direction - a single document cannot be spread over multiple messages. But within a message, this would allow every section, or even every single character of a message to be a separate "document". One could even say "I CoE on the document made up by taking every other letter of the following report." However, looking to the common definition of "document" gives: > A piece of written, printed, or electronic matter that provides > information or evidence or that serves as an official record. The key point here is that a document provides information or is an official record. At the extreme, a single character provides no information on its own, so this suggests there's a minimum information content for a document to be a document. And for these purposes, the "official record" in question is clearly defined in R2166/26: >That entity's report includes a list of all instances of that class > and their owners. This portion of that entity's report is self- > ratifying. This list is described as a unit, so a full list of Currency X holdings is the minimum "unit of information" that could be considered a self- ratifying document. Further, the fact that multiple "documents" can be comingled means that each Currency List is a separate "document", even if the information is in columns or otherwise combined with other "documents" (e.g. in columns of
Re: DIS: Re: [@Treasuror] Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Stonemason] December Stone Auction Resolution
On 12/20/20 1:41 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote: On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 11:32 AM Reuben Staley via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: On 12/13/20 11:28 PM, Lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote: Le 13/12/2020 à 23:28, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion a écrit : On 12/10/20 8:46 AM, ATMunn via agora-discussion wrote: On 12/9/2020 11:12 PM, Lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote: Le 10/12/2020 à 02:35, ATMunn via agora-business a écrit : On 12/9/2020 8:30 PM, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: On 12/9/2020 7:13 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote: This auction was a selective-bid auction. The awardees are as follows: [Protection Stone] -> Murphy for 135 coins. [Sabotage Stone] -> Murphy for 130 coins. [Wealth Stone] -> ATMunn for 169 coins. I pay a fee of 169 coins to transfer the Wealth Stone from Agora to myself (for real this time). I wield my Wealth Stone in order to cause myself to earn 5 boatloads of coins (23 coins). There was a mistake in the rounding method in the Floating Rate Schedule, it's actually 24 coins. (ceiling(4.6212*5) = 24, but Trigon used floor) I don't know if it should be CoE'd I think it's fine as long as the Treasuror records it correctly. The important thing is that I wielded the stone and specified myself. Indeed, Rule 2645 specifies that wielding the stone performs the effect instantly. The boatloads and its translation into coins were supplemental effects. Also, for future reference, Claims of Error are reserved for inaccuracies in reports. In this case the action just failed and the best you could do would be to inform the player of such thing. Sorry, I wasn't clear enough: I meant CoEing the Floating Rate Schedule, since the conversion table is slightly off. I just wanted to avoid extra confusion in the next Forbes, since some can wonder why they got one extra coin. The conversion table was a courtesy that I put in the FRS. I don't believe that claims of error are able to be issued on anything except for self-ratifying sections of reports. Precedent seems to disagree. CFJ 1420 said that the list of watchers could be CoE'd, despite not being defined by the rules. The current rules are a bit different, and you could make a pretty fair argument that, under recent precedent, the conversion table is a separate document that wasn't required to be published. But even then, you SHOULD issue a revision, you just NEED NOT do so. The relevant current rule is Rule 2201. -Aris Under the current rules, only a document can be CoE'd (see Rule 2201/10). I forget what exactly that entails, but if you can classify the non-self-ratifying and unrequired sections of an official report as 'documents' or parts thereof then I would agree that it can be CoE'd. I forget what exactly is and isn't a document. Someone who is not me can look that up. -- Trigon ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST I’m always happy to become a party to contracts. I LOVE SPAGHETTI transfer Jason one coin nch was here I hereby don't... trust... the dragon... don't... trust... the dragon... Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this
Re: DIS: Re: [@Treasuror] Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Stonemason] December Stone Auction Resolution
On 12/20/2020 12:41 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote: > On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 11:32 AM Reuben Staley via agora-discussion < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > >> On 12/13/20 11:28 PM, Lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote: >>> Le 13/12/2020 à 23:28, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion a écrit : On 12/10/20 8:46 AM, ATMunn via agora-discussion wrote: > On 12/9/2020 11:12 PM, Lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote: >> Le 10/12/2020 à 02:35, ATMunn via agora-business a écrit : >>> >>> On 12/9/2020 8:30 PM, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: On 12/9/2020 7:13 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote: > This auction was a selective-bid auction. The awardees are as >> follows: > [Protection Stone] -> Murphy for 135 coins. > [Sabotage Stone] -> Murphy for 130 coins. > [Wealth Stone] -> ATMunn for 169 coins. I pay a fee of 169 coins to transfer the Wealth Stone from Agora to myself (for real this time). >>> >>> I wield my Wealth Stone in order to cause myself to earn 5 boatloads >> of >>> coins (23 coins). >>> >> >> There was a mistake in the rounding method in the Floating Rate >> Schedule, it's actually 24 coins. >> (ceiling(4.6212*5) = 24, but Trigon used floor) >> >> I don't know if it should be CoE'd >> > > I think it's fine as long as the Treasuror records it correctly. The > important thing is that I wielded the stone and specified myself. > Indeed, Rule 2645 specifies that wielding the stone performs the effect instantly. The boatloads and its translation into coins were supplemental effects. Also, for future reference, Claims of Error are reserved for inaccuracies in reports. In this case the action just failed and the best you could do would be to inform the player of such thing. >>> >>> Sorry, I wasn't clear enough: I meant CoEing the Floating Rate Schedule, >>> since the conversion table is slightly off. I just wanted to avoid >>> extra confusion in the next Forbes, since some can wonder why they got >>> one extra coin. >>> >> >> The conversion table was a courtesy that I put in the FRS. I don't >> believe that claims of error are able to be issued on anything except >> for self-ratifying sections of reports. > > > Precedent seems to disagree. CFJ 1420 said that the list of watchers could > be CoE'd, despite not being defined by the rules. > > The current rules are a bit different, and you could make a pretty fair > argument that, under recent precedent, the conversion table is a separate > document that wasn't required to be published. But even then, you SHOULD > issue a revision, you just NEED NOT do so. The relevant current rule is > Rule 2201. While CoE is terminology used for any pointing out of error, here's been a fair amount of back and forth about this over the years as per the legal response, and many text changes to the rule. For example, 2201/7 (circa 2017) pretty clearly tied CoE to the self-ratifying documents only. I think then that precedent isn't much use here. The current version has the doubting again following after the self ratification and it's not clear to me. On a "how it should be" note, I think for example that officers SHOULD NOT correct CoEs that are the provenance of other officers (for example, if a Treasuror separates zombies in eir currency reports, a CoE of "X isn't a zombie" shouldn't be responded to by the Treasuror). That's not quite the case here, but just to illustrate that just because someone publishes a fact, there are situations that e SHOULD NOT necessarily respond to CoEs about it. -G.
Re: DIS: Re: [@Treasuror] Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Stonemason] December Stone Auction Resolution
On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 11:32 AM Reuben Staley via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On 12/13/20 11:28 PM, Lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote: > > Le 13/12/2020 à 23:28, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion a écrit : > >> > >> On 12/10/20 8:46 AM, ATMunn via agora-discussion wrote: > >>> On 12/9/2020 11:12 PM, Lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote: > Le 10/12/2020 à 02:35, ATMunn via agora-business a écrit : > > > > On 12/9/2020 8:30 PM, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: > >> On 12/9/2020 7:13 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote: > >>> This auction was a selective-bid auction. The awardees are as > follows: > >>> [Protection Stone] -> Murphy for 135 coins. > >>> [Sabotage Stone] -> Murphy for 130 coins. > >>> [Wealth Stone] -> ATMunn for 169 coins. > >> > >> I pay a fee of 169 coins to transfer the Wealth Stone from Agora to > >> myself (for real this time). > >> > > > > I wield my Wealth Stone in order to cause myself to earn 5 boatloads > of > > coins (23 coins). > > > > There was a mistake in the rounding method in the Floating Rate > Schedule, it's actually 24 coins. > (ceiling(4.6212*5) = 24, but Trigon used floor) > > I don't know if it should be CoE'd > > >>> > >>> I think it's fine as long as the Treasuror records it correctly. The > >>> important thing is that I wielded the stone and specified myself. > >>> > >> > >> Indeed, Rule 2645 specifies that wielding the stone performs the effect > >> instantly. The boatloads and its translation into coins were > >> supplemental effects. Also, for future reference, Claims of Error are > >> reserved for inaccuracies in reports. In this case the action just > >> failed and the best you could do would be to inform the player of such > >> thing. > >> > > > > Sorry, I wasn't clear enough: I meant CoEing the Floating Rate Schedule, > > since the conversion table is slightly off. I just wanted to avoid > > extra confusion in the next Forbes, since some can wonder why they got > > one extra coin. > > > > The conversion table was a courtesy that I put in the FRS. I don't > believe that claims of error are able to be issued on anything except > for self-ratifying sections of reports. Precedent seems to disagree. CFJ 1420 said that the list of watchers could be CoE'd, despite not being defined by the rules. The current rules are a bit different, and you could make a pretty fair argument that, under recent precedent, the conversion table is a separate document that wasn't required to be published. But even then, you SHOULD issue a revision, you just NEED NOT do so. The relevant current rule is Rule 2201. -Aris >
Re: DIS: Re: [@Treasuror] Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Stonemason] December Stone Auction Resolution
On 12/13/20 11:28 PM, Lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote: Le 13/12/2020 à 23:28, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion a écrit : On 12/10/20 8:46 AM, ATMunn via agora-discussion wrote: On 12/9/2020 11:12 PM, Lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote: Le 10/12/2020 à 02:35, ATMunn via agora-business a écrit : On 12/9/2020 8:30 PM, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: On 12/9/2020 7:13 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote: This auction was a selective-bid auction. The awardees are as follows: [Protection Stone] -> Murphy for 135 coins. [Sabotage Stone] -> Murphy for 130 coins. [Wealth Stone] -> ATMunn for 169 coins. I pay a fee of 169 coins to transfer the Wealth Stone from Agora to myself (for real this time). I wield my Wealth Stone in order to cause myself to earn 5 boatloads of coins (23 coins). There was a mistake in the rounding method in the Floating Rate Schedule, it's actually 24 coins. (ceiling(4.6212*5) = 24, but Trigon used floor) I don't know if it should be CoE'd I think it's fine as long as the Treasuror records it correctly. The important thing is that I wielded the stone and specified myself. Indeed, Rule 2645 specifies that wielding the stone performs the effect instantly. The boatloads and its translation into coins were supplemental effects. Also, for future reference, Claims of Error are reserved for inaccuracies in reports. In this case the action just failed and the best you could do would be to inform the player of such thing. Sorry, I wasn't clear enough: I meant CoEing the Floating Rate Schedule, since the conversion table is slightly off. I just wanted to avoid extra confusion in the next Forbes, since some can wonder why they got one extra coin. The conversion table was a courtesy that I put in the FRS. I don't believe that claims of error are able to be issued on anything except for self-ratifying sections of reports. -- Trigon ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST I’m always happy to become a party to contracts. I LOVE SPAGHETTI transfer Jason one coin nch was here I hereby don't... trust... the dragon... don't... trust... the dragon... Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this
Re: DIS: Re: [@Treasuror] Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Stonemason] December Stone Auction Resolution
Le 13/12/2020 à 23:28, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion a écrit : > > On 12/10/20 8:46 AM, ATMunn via agora-discussion wrote: >> On 12/9/2020 11:12 PM, Lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote: >>> Le 10/12/2020 à 02:35, ATMunn via agora-business a écrit : On 12/9/2020 8:30 PM, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: > On 12/9/2020 7:13 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote: >> This auction was a selective-bid auction. The awardees are as follows: >> [Protection Stone] -> Murphy for 135 coins. >> [Sabotage Stone] -> Murphy for 130 coins. >> [Wealth Stone] -> ATMunn for 169 coins. > > I pay a fee of 169 coins to transfer the Wealth Stone from Agora to > myself (for real this time). > I wield my Wealth Stone in order to cause myself to earn 5 boatloads of coins (23 coins). >>> >>> There was a mistake in the rounding method in the Floating Rate >>> Schedule, it's actually 24 coins. >>> (ceiling(4.6212*5) = 24, but Trigon used floor) >>> >>> I don't know if it should be CoE'd >>> >> >> I think it's fine as long as the Treasuror records it correctly. The >> important thing is that I wielded the stone and specified myself. >> > > Indeed, Rule 2645 specifies that wielding the stone performs the effect > instantly. The boatloads and its translation into coins were > supplemental effects. Also, for future reference, Claims of Error are > reserved for inaccuracies in reports. In this case the action just > failed and the best you could do would be to inform the player of such > thing. > Sorry, I wasn't clear enough: I meant CoEing the Floating Rate Schedule, since the conversion table is slightly off. I just wanted to avoid extra confusion in the next Forbes, since some can wonder why they got one extra coin. -- ~lucidiot
Re: DIS: Re: [@Treasuror] Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Stonemason] December Stone Auction Resolution
On 12/10/20 8:46 AM, ATMunn via agora-discussion wrote: On 12/9/2020 11:12 PM, Lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote: Le 10/12/2020 à 02:35, ATMunn via agora-business a écrit : On 12/9/2020 8:30 PM, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: On 12/9/2020 7:13 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote: This auction was a selective-bid auction. The awardees are as follows: [Protection Stone] -> Murphy for 135 coins. [Sabotage Stone] -> Murphy for 130 coins. [Wealth Stone] -> ATMunn for 169 coins. I pay a fee of 169 coins to transfer the Wealth Stone from Agora to myself (for real this time). I wield my Wealth Stone in order to cause myself to earn 5 boatloads of coins (23 coins). There was a mistake in the rounding method in the Floating Rate Schedule, it's actually 24 coins. (ceiling(4.6212*5) = 24, but Trigon used floor) I don't know if it should be CoE'd I think it's fine as long as the Treasuror records it correctly. The important thing is that I wielded the stone and specified myself. Indeed, Rule 2645 specifies that wielding the stone performs the effect instantly. The boatloads and its translation into coins were supplemental effects. Also, for future reference, Claims of Error are reserved for inaccuracies in reports. In this case the action just failed and the best you could do would be to inform the player of such thing. -- Trigon ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST I’m always happy to become a party to contracts. I LOVE SPAGHETTI transfer Jason one coin nch was here I hereby don't... trust... the dragon... don't... trust... the dragon... Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this
Re: DIS: Re: [@Treasuror] Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Stonemason] December Stone Auction Resolution
On 12/9/2020 11:12 PM, Lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote: Le 10/12/2020 à 02:35, ATMunn via agora-business a écrit : On 12/9/2020 8:30 PM, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: On 12/9/2020 7:13 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote: This auction was a selective-bid auction. The awardees are as follows: [Protection Stone] -> Murphy for 135 coins. [Sabotage Stone] -> Murphy for 130 coins. [Wealth Stone] -> ATMunn for 169 coins. I pay a fee of 169 coins to transfer the Wealth Stone from Agora to myself (for real this time). I wield my Wealth Stone in order to cause myself to earn 5 boatloads of coins (23 coins). There was a mistake in the rounding method in the Floating Rate Schedule, it's actually 24 coins. (ceiling(4.6212*5) = 24, but Trigon used floor) I don't know if it should be CoE'd I think it's fine as long as the Treasuror records it correctly. The important thing is that I wielded the stone and specified myself. -- ATMunn friendly neighborhood notary and Prime Minister of Agora :)
DIS: Re: [@Treasuror] Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Stonemason] December Stone Auction Resolution
Le 10/12/2020 à 02:35, ATMunn via agora-business a écrit : > > On 12/9/2020 8:30 PM, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: >> On 12/9/2020 7:13 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote: >>> This auction was a selective-bid auction. The awardees are as follows: >>> [Protection Stone] -> Murphy for 135 coins. >>> [Sabotage Stone] -> Murphy for 130 coins. >>> [Wealth Stone] -> ATMunn for 169 coins. >> >> I pay a fee of 169 coins to transfer the Wealth Stone from Agora to >> myself (for real this time). >> > > I wield my Wealth Stone in order to cause myself to earn 5 boatloads of > coins (23 coins). > There was a mistake in the rounding method in the Floating Rate Schedule, it's actually 24 coins. (ceiling(4.6212*5) = 24, but Trigon used floor) I don't know if it should be CoE'd -- ~lucidiot
